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tllips
03-08-06, 11:33 AM
Then I read this from Bob Varsha. (http://speedtv.com/commentary/22414/)

I thought it would be more exciting as everyone had to go on track during each session. Then Bob puts up this scenario and I'm thinking ther is going to be a ton of downtime in each session. :shakehead I hope Bob's wrong.


But I digress. Here’s my concern: if I’m in a car as slow as the Super Aguri (nee Arrows-Honda) seems to be, I’m fairly certain I won’t survive the “knockout,” and I want to save wear on my two-race engine. So I’ll probably run few laps (unless, like Speed and Scuderia Toro Rosso, I’m running a performance-limited but proven V10, which could be an advantage early in the season). Then again, if I’m a fast guy, as testing shows the factory Hondas, Renaults and McLarens to be, I’ll want to get a quick lap in to lock up my spot in the next quarter-hour session, then get off the track, again to save the engine and tires.

Next session, same deal: the fast guys will post a single hot lap, then park it to wait for the shootout, while the slow guys save their bullets for the race (and next week’s). Will anybody do any significant lapping?



Maybe the solution is to allow the front of the grid to setup their fuel strategy after the last qualifying session. (I.E. add fuel.)

Dirty Sanchez
03-08-06, 11:47 AM
what the hell do people expect? a half a race distance in an hour? :laugh:

in the old 1 hour sessions (12 lap limit) they typically did only 4 hot laps. 1 out, 1 hot, 1 in x 4.

I don't see how this is any different.

pchall
03-08-06, 12:30 PM
what the hell do people expect? a half a race distance in an hour? :laugh:

in the old 1 hour sessions (12 lap limit) they typically did only 4 hot laps. 1 out, 1 hot, 1 in x 4.

I don't see how this is any different.

How about 20 laps minimum in two runs during the hour? At least half of which must be completed in the first half hour. No pitting until lap 8 of a run, when-- if you pit for changes--you must run at least 4 more laps.

jonovision_man
03-08-06, 01:58 PM
1) It couldn't be any worse than one-car-at-a-time garbage we've had the last few seasons.

2) The gaps won't be any longer than when we used to have cars sitting idle until 20-25 minutes into the session.

This guarantees some action most of the time, and it'll be real action, not like one-at-a-time.

jono

Dirty Sanchez
03-08-06, 02:42 PM
How about 20 laps minimum in two runs during the hour? At least half of which must be completed in the first half hour. No pitting until lap 8 of a run, when-- if you pit for changes--you must run at least 4 more laps.complete overkill.

Al Czervik
03-08-06, 03:19 PM
How about 20 laps minimum in two runs during the hour? At least half of which must be completed in the first half hour. No pitting until lap 8 of a run, when-- if you pit for changes--you must run at least 4 more laps.

Someone would "accidently" brush the kill switch, or go just wide enough and slow enough to get "stuck" in the gravel trap after how ever many laps they wanted to run, be it one lap, or two laps, etc.

Gomerbilly
03-08-06, 07:39 PM
Why did they ever get rid of the nearly PERFECT one hour sessions? One hour, 12 laps, four sets of tires. It was awesome and there was no need to change it. It could have been made better by taking the lap limit away.

Cam
03-08-06, 08:56 PM
Why did they ever get rid of the nearly PERFECT one hour sessions? One hour, 12 laps, four sets of tires. It was awesome and there was no need to change it. It could have been made better by taking the lap limit away.

Mosely and cost cutting again. All in the name of the $...... God he's a fargin idiot. :shakehead

SteveH
03-08-06, 09:02 PM
4 timed laps around the track, just like God intended :gomer:

Gomerbilly
03-09-06, 10:06 PM
Mosely and cost cutting again. All in the name of the $...... God he's a fargin idiot. :shakehead



You really have to wonder how much worse it can get. You'd think Bernie would step in and see to it qualifying got fixed. Everytime they change it, it gets worse. I read the rules for the new format and I have no freaking idea how it's supposed to work. It confusing and requires way too many machinations to work.

The beauty of the one hour session was its randomness. Sometimes they went out early, sometimes late. People fighting for a clean lap in cars tricked out for qualifying. It was exciting and cool as hell to watch. And then there was the last two minutes when everybody hit the track for their last flier. High drama. I have several old races on tape. It makes you sad when you watch them; we've lost a lot in F-1 under Mosley.

Lizzerd
03-10-06, 03:02 AM
Random thoughts...

During the first hour session, when a driver establishes his fast lap, he must lap four (or more) more laps within .5 seconds (adjustable by circuit) of it to count as the first session time. Driver must complete at least five hot laps for any time to count. Credit given for fifth fastest lap if not time window match, but five laps completed.

Likewise, session two. Fewer laps, perhaps three more to fall within the "window". Must complete three hot laps for any lap to count. Otherwise given credit for third fastest lap.

Give the last session to the fastest lap plus one nearly-matching time. Credit given for fastest lap if another lap is within window, or revert to session two lap time if fastest lap cannot be matched within window.

Wow, would this complicate things, or what?

Ideally, I echo Gomerbilly. 1 hour, 12 laps. The good old days.

Looking back at what I have said above, this could get REALLY complicated, as if it isn't already. My soulution would at least keep cars on the track for a while, anyway, and not let the fast guys save their engines.

Boatdesigner
03-10-06, 01:54 PM
The complaint about the old one hour format was that nothing happened for the first 15-20 minutes. Seems like the simple thing to do would be to make it 45 minutes, probably fit better with TV schedules as well. I guess that kind of simplicity is too simple for F1. :shakehead

High Sided
03-10-06, 04:17 PM
well i'm still looking forward to qualify and tire changes ta'boot!

jonovision_man
03-11-06, 07:20 AM
Pretty bloody exciting so far! :eek:

I won't spoil it, I know some of you are on tape delay...

jono

jonovision_man
03-11-06, 08:14 AM
Then I read this from Bob Varsha. (http://speedtv.com/commentary/22414/)

I thought it would be more exciting as everyone had to go on track during each session. Then Bob puts up this scenario and I'm thinking ther is going to be a ton of downtime in each session. :shakehead I hope Bob's wrong.


He couldn't have been more wrong. There was a car on track the entire time, usually a ton of them.

He forgot to account for in laps and out laps... 15 minutes is so short, they have no choice but to be out there.

jono

Spicoli
03-11-06, 09:35 AM
Wow. that was great. Congrats to MS on his record pole. :thumbup:

:D JB = Bridesmaid forevah! :rofl:

NismoZ
03-11-06, 11:08 AM
I think I get it now! Varsha seemed to have as many fits and starts trying to explain it as I did trying to understand it. Pretty good show.

OW
03-11-06, 11:45 AM
VERY exciting, Almost like extra "racing" time.

racer2c
03-11-06, 02:10 PM
Wow. that was great. Congrats to MS on his record pole. :thumbup:

:D JB = Bridesmaid forevah! :rofl:

record tieing pole?

Dr. Corkski
03-11-06, 03:08 PM
http://images.f1racing.net/large/56971.jpg

No qualifying format can stop uncle ron and his gestapo from sabotaging Kimi's chances at a championship. :laugh:

TrueBrit
03-11-06, 03:12 PM
I think I can safely say that was the most interesting and exciting qualifying session in F-1 for quite a while. The one-lap banzai crap is gone, and instead we have a steady progression of the cream rising to the top, with the odd strategic blunder making things even more interesting. I think the format acheived its' objective of making quallies more exciting, and forcing the cars onto the track in all three sessions thereby adding value for the punters that paid their hard-earned dosh to see their favs pounding around the track.

I also think that this is the very first time an idea spawned by Max Moseley actually worked out.... :eek:

On edit: I knew it wasn't possible for Max to have a good idea... http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/4797104.stm
..turns it was Bernard's idea...

Spicoli
03-11-06, 04:11 PM
record tieing pole?

Yep, equalled Senna. :thumbup:

Spicoli
03-11-06, 04:12 PM
http://images.f1racing.net/large/56971.jpg

No qualifying format can stop uncle ron and his gestapo from sabotaging Kimi's chances at a championship. :laugh:

that was ****ed up man. did they ever figger out what it was? Wing failure? gearbox? suspension? wtf?? :confused:

devilmaster
03-11-06, 04:16 PM
http://images.f1racing.net/large/56971.jpg

No qualifying format can stop uncle ron and his gestapo from sabotaging Kimi's chances at a championship. :laugh:

Jesus Kimi, I thought you would get the hint with the 'Keep Walking' sidepod..... ;)

Dr. Corkski
03-11-06, 04:17 PM
that was ****ed up man. did they ever figger out what it was? Wing failure? gearbox? suspension? wtf?? :confused:Right rear suspension broke. Mercedes probably sabotaged it so Kimi wouldn't be out there long enough for his engine to self destruct again.

Spicoli
03-11-06, 04:23 PM
Right rear suspension broke. Mercedes probably sabotaged it so Kimi wouldn't be out there long enough for his engine to self destruct again.

:rofl:

Oh the hatred..... :p

Cam
03-11-06, 04:30 PM
Yep, equalled Senna. :thumbup:

BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!! :thumdown:

Spicoli
03-11-06, 05:03 PM
BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!! :thumdown:

Right.

Debateable....but you would have to give consideration that they are the 2 greatest ever. Sure, MS stole the show for the last several years, but in the next year or so, he'll be goner. For the last 6 years of the USGP, it's been the Ferrari show. People get sick of it. But tim passes. THEN you will be talking about him like Senna, RIP. And rightfully so.

7 WDC? C'mon, beat that. Do I really like the guy? Prolly not...but you cannot argue with what he has accomplished. and for that, he gets the respect of every fan. :thumbup:

Gomerbilly
03-11-06, 05:14 PM
Right.

Debateable....but you would have to give consideration that they are the 2 greatest ever. Sure, MS stole the show for the last several years, but in the next year or so, he'll be goner. For the last 6 years of the USGP, it's been the Ferrari show. People get sick of it. But tim passes. THEN you will be talking about him like Senna, RIP. And rightfully so.

7 WDC? C'mon, beat that. Do I really like the guy? Prolly not...but you cannot argue with what he has accomplished. and for that, he gets the respect of every fan. :thumbup:



It's crap like this that creates the Ferrari hatred:

Rivals unhappy with Ferrari's rear wing

"Questions have been raised about the design of the rear wing of Ferrari's 248 F1, even though it has been declared legal by the sport's governing body."

and

Ecclestone interested in Ferrari stake

"Formula One supremo Bernie Ecclestone has said he would be interested in becoming a shareholder in Ferrari, after Mediobanca said this week that it planned to sell its stake in the team."


Nvermind that the reintroduction of tire changes is widely seen as a gift to Bridgestone and Ferrari. Nor is Schumacher ever (rarely) called on his agressive (illegal) driving. Etc., etc. He is great, but things seem to go his way quite often.


I just hope that this season isn't another Ferrari romp. I just don't think I could handle that again.

Cam
03-11-06, 05:15 PM
Right.

Debateable....but you would have to give consideration that they are the 2 greatest ever. Sure, MS stole the show for the last several years, but in the next year or so, he'll be goner. For the last 6 years of the USGP, it's been the Ferrari show. People get sick of it. But tim passes. THEN you will be talking about him like Senna, RIP. And rightfully so.

7 WDC? C'mon, beat that. Do I really like the guy? Prolly not...but you cannot argue with what he has accomplished. and for that, he gets the respect of every fan. :thumbup:

I have a brewski on ice waiting for ya if you really want to debate this. :D

Gomerbilly
03-11-06, 05:18 PM
I think I can safely say that was the most interesting and exciting qualifying session in F-1 for quite a while. The one-lap banzai crap is gone, and instead we have a steady progression of the cream rising to the top, with the odd strategic blunder making things even more interesting. I think the format acheived its' objective of making quallies more exciting, and forcing the cars onto the track in all three sessions thereby adding value for the punters that paid their hard-earned dosh to see their favs pounding around the track.

I also think that this is the very first time an idea spawned by Max Moseley actually worked out.... :eek:

On edit: I knew it wasn't possible for Max to have a good idea... http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/4797104.stm
..turns it was Bernard's idea...

It's better than one lap qualifying but I think it still really sucks. The first two sessions are worthless. The last session is the only one that had any drama. Why oh why don't they just do the one hour format of old?!

Gomerbilly
03-11-06, 05:21 PM
I have a brewski on ice waiting for ya if you really want to debate this. :D


History will always question Schumacher because he never raced in a period where he had equal competition. You can't say that about Senna. Senna also raced without driver aids for a large part of his career.

Spicoli
03-11-06, 05:32 PM
History will always question Schumacher because he never raced in a period where he had equal competition. You can't say that about Senna. Senna also raced without driver aids for a large part of his career.

Damn, i'm defending Shuey? Crapus must be laughing his ass off right now.


Look - the rules change all the fookin time. right? MS won against a thick field, it is just that he is THAT GOOD. He had the best car, the best talent, and the best luck, and he got SEVEN wdcs....that's not 1, or 2, or 3...that's SEVEN. You have to respect that.

It will be all too soon, and he'll be gone, which was my point - enjoy the ride and enjoy seeing one of the greatest of all time. Maybe he was humbled a bit by last year's results, but when he ran out of the garage with fists in the air today, I saw a very enthusiastic driver, celebrating his record tieing pole, and that's awesome for any fan of GP.

Gomerbilly
03-11-06, 05:53 PM
Damn, i'm defending Shuey? Crapus must be laughing his ass off right now.


Look - the rules change all the fookin time. right? MS won against a thick field, it is just that he is THAT GOOD. He had the best car, the best talent, and the best luck, and he got SEVEN wdcs....that's not 1, or 2, or 3...that's SEVEN. You have to respect that.

It will be all too soon, and he'll be gone, which was my point - enjoy the ride and enjoy seeing one of the greatest of all time. Maybe he was humbled a bit by last year's results, but when he ran out of the garage with fists in the air today, I saw a very enthusiastic driver, celebrating his record tieing pole, and that's awesome for any fan of GP.


He had the best car EVERYTIME!! Far and way the best car. Numbers don't impress me that much. Seven is impressive but you have to put it in context. Look, he's one of the best; definately the best of his era. Just not all time. I just don't want to see another Ferrari cakewalk to the title. It's boring as hell.

Cam
03-11-06, 07:40 PM
He had the best car EVERYTIME!! Far and way the best car. Numbers don't impress me that much. Seven is impressive but you have to put it in context. Look, he's one of the best; definately the best of his era. Just not all time. I just don't want to see another Ferrari cakewalk to the title. It's boring as hell.

Wwas gonna comment. On second thought never mind..... The red plague will just go ape.....

TrueBrit
03-11-06, 07:42 PM
Disagree with you on the new format. I like the idea of a knockout because it forces cars onto the track for every segment. As long as they mandate that engines have to go for two weekends, or even one for that matter, your dream of a single one-hour session will never materialize, everybody would wait for the last 10 minutes of the session to put in one flyer and limit the number of miles on the motor. I think the two-race mandate on the engine is bloody stupid to begin with, and it will be interesting to see what sort of impact it has on the shape of grids to come as the engines have to go through two races worth of full-tilt, three segment qualifying sessions AND two full-length races....

As for Senna vs Dirty-chopping-cheating-pointy-chinned-bastard, Senna was going up against the likes of Prost, Mansell, Piquet and Lauda. Who was Buttmacher going up against? Much as I love Demon Damon, JV, and Mika Hakinen none of them quite match up to the calibre that Senna had to face.

There is no doubt that the Chin-meister is a truly gifted driver, and his records will probably never be broken, but in a straight race between Senna and Horse-face, I'd take Senna every time.

oddlycalm
03-11-06, 07:48 PM
Damn, i'm defending Shuey? Nah, you're no Shuey shill. More like defending rational thought...

oc

Spicoli
03-11-06, 07:51 PM
Nah, you're no Shuey shill. More like defending rational thought...

oc

buy that man a Blue Ribbon! well put, that's my point. :thumbup:

Cam
03-11-06, 09:03 PM
As for Senna vs Dirty-chopping-cheating-pointy-chinned-bastard, Senna was going up against the likes of Prost, Mansell, Piquet and Lauda. Who was Buttmacher going up against? Much as I love Demon Damon, JV, and Mika Hakinen none of them quite match up to the calibre that Senna had to face.

There is no doubt that the Chin-meister is a truly gifted driver, and his records will probably never be broken, but in a straight race between Senna and Horse-face, I'd take Senna every time.

We have a winner!!!! :thumbup:

Lizzerd
03-11-06, 09:56 PM
He had the best car EVERYTIME!! Far and way the best car. Numbers don't impress me that much. Seven is impressive but you have to put it in context. Look, he's one of the best; definately the best of his era. Just not all time. I just don't want to see another Ferrari cakewalk to the title. It's boring as hell.

I feel like also I'm in an awkward position right now of looking like I'm defending The Chin, but you're not considering that Shumacher was very instrumental in developing all those championship cars. After all, he didn't just walk on to a winning team. It's not just driving that makes a WDC.

Dr. Corkski
03-11-06, 10:00 PM
It's always a good sign for Schumacher when the whiners come out to play. :thumbup:

Gomerbilly
03-11-06, 10:23 PM
I feel like also I'm in an awkward position right now of looking like I'm defending The Chin, but you're not considering that Shumacher was very instrumental in developing all those championship cars. After all, he didn't just walk on to a winning team. It's not just driving that makes a WDC.


I'd say Ross Brawn and Rory Byrne have more to do with that than Schumacher. Anyone could have the WC in those cars.

Gomerbilly
03-11-06, 10:36 PM
buy that man a Blue Ribbon! well put, that's my point. :thumbup:


I never said it was irrational, just incomplete. I wish I had your attitude toward the prospect of another Ferrari onslaught.

Cam
03-11-06, 10:55 PM
:rolleyes: Cork comes out of the woodwork......

Gomerbilly
03-11-06, 10:59 PM
:rolleyes: Cork comes out of the woodwork......

HAHAHA!! Whatever man....... you guys can have your Schumacher fantasies. Some of us know better.

Cam
03-11-06, 11:06 PM
HAHAHA!! Whatever man....... you guys can have your Schumacher fantasies. Some of us know better.

What?????? I have no Buttmacher fantasy!!!! Check your records rookie!

Cam
03-11-06, 11:16 PM
It's always a good sign for Schumacher when the whiners come out to play. :thumbup:

OK Cork..... Enlighten me...... What are the endearing factors that el-chin has????

Gomerbilly
03-11-06, 11:30 PM
OK Cork..... Enlighten me...... What are the endearing factors that el-chin has????

:confused:

I'm not defending Scumacher, quite the contrary. Something must have gotten lost in translation. I said he is historically overrated. I'm arguing that he hasn't had the competition that Senna et. al. had and he's had the best car during his championship years. Simple facts.

I'm not a rookie really. I logged quite a few posts at Crapwagon and know must of the gang here. I even took a piss with Spicoli behind his garage. :gomer:

Gomerbilly
03-11-06, 11:32 PM
OK Cork..... Enlighten me...... What are the endearing factors that el-chin has????


Cork.....HAHAHA! I like that. Feel free to call me that. :thumbup:

Cam
03-11-06, 11:33 PM
Cork.....HAHAHA! I like that. Feel free to call me that. :thumbup:

Rookie...... I wasnt calling you out..... :shakehead

Gomerbilly
03-11-06, 11:35 PM
Rookie...... I wasnt calling you out..... :shakehead


You can still call me Cork. :D

Cam
03-11-06, 11:37 PM
Wonderful..... Juvenile games....... :rolleyes:

Gomerbilly
03-11-06, 11:39 PM
Wonderful..... Juvenile games....... :rolleyes:


I'm done. Wasn't this supposed to be about qualifying?

Cam
03-11-06, 11:44 PM
I'm done.

pointless...... fugedaboutit...

Lizzerd
03-12-06, 05:00 PM
I'd say Ross Brawn and Rory Byrne have more to do with that than Schumacher. Anyone could have the WC in those cars.

Let me try again. Brawn and Byrne would not have developed the car they developed without the extensive and valueable technical feedback that Shumacher provided.

Are you disagreeing with me or are you just being argumentive?

Gomerbilly
03-12-06, 06:34 PM
Let me try again. Brawn and Byrne would not have developed the car they developed without the extensive and valueable technical feedback that Shumacher provided.

Are you disagreeing with me or are you just being argumentive?

Well, he obviously had valuable input on the car but I think it's a stretch to think his feedback was instrumental in its success. I remember Rubens and Irvine were pretty quick when they were allowed to race. I'm not aware of any situation where a driver's input determined whether a car was quick or not from a design perspective (set-up maybe). That whole group at Ferrari works well together and it would be inaccurate to say Schumacher wasn't a large part of their success. But I think that design team cranked out some great cars and would have regardless if Schumacher was there or not. Whether the technical staff would have been at Ferrari without Schumacher is a more pressing question. If you look at it from that perspective, then I'd say Schumacher was responsible, in a manner of speaking for putting that team together and hence, their success.

Lizzerd
03-12-06, 08:42 PM
With that, I honestly can't tell if you agree or disagree.

Gomerbilly
03-13-06, 03:50 AM
With that, I honestly can't tell if you agree or disagree.


Disagree - without flushing everything you said down the toilet.

Dirty Sanchez
03-13-06, 10:52 AM
Senna vs. Schumacher :laugh:




:gomer: x 100000000000000000

Gomerbilly
03-14-06, 02:43 AM
Senna vs. Schumacher :laugh:




:gomer: x 100000000000000000


Actually, Prost was the best.

Dr. Corkski
03-14-06, 04:10 AM
Actually, Prost was the best.This keeps on getting better. :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:



:gomer:

TrueBrit
03-14-06, 03:05 PM
Actually, Prost was the best.

The best what?

rabbit
03-14-06, 03:35 PM
Brawn and Byrne would not have developed the car they developed without the extensive and valueable technical feedback that Shumacher provided.
As usual, Lizzerd is spot on. :thumbup:

<-------- not a Shuemy fan :thumdown: I still haven't forgotten this one...
http://www.formula1.com/photos/halloffame/gallery_image_main_5_7.jpg
or this one...
http://journal.autosport-atlas.com/2005/fra/cameron7.jpg

Dr. Corkski
03-14-06, 03:47 PM
http://journal.autosport-atlas.com/2005/fra/cameron7.jpgYou are probably referring to Adelaide 94 but that pic was from Silverstone 95 but Hill was the one that made an idiotic kamikaze move and took both out. :gomer:

rabbit
03-14-06, 04:08 PM
You are probably referring to Adelaide 94 but that pic was from Silverstone 95 but Hill was the one that made an idiotic kamikaze move and took both out. :gomer:
Oops, you're right. :o

Lizzerd
03-14-06, 04:22 PM
As usual, Lizzerd is spot on. :thumbup:


Thanks, rabbit. Tell that to Mr. Gomerbilly.

Gomerbilly
03-14-06, 07:53 PM
Thanks, rabbit. Tell that to Mr. Gomerbilly.


I'm sorry but I think that thesis is nonsense. Brawn and Byrne couldn't have developed a championship caliber car without Schumacher? I don't agree. Go back and read my eariler post. I laid out a senario where you may be able to make your argument but I think the reality is far more nuanced.

Regardless, reasonable people can disagree over this. I expect that much will be written about this very topic by far more informed people than ourselves once Schumacher retires.

Lizzerd
03-14-06, 08:02 PM
Brawn and Byrne couldn't have developed a championship caliber car without Schumacher?

That's not what I said. They could have developed a championship caliber car without Shumacher. The fact is that they developed a championship car, specifically suited to a champion driver, which made the combination of said car and driver unbeatable. It would have been a different car without his input.

Gomerbilly
03-14-06, 08:14 PM
That's not what I said. They could have developed a championship caliber car without Shumacher. The fact is that they developed a championship car, specifically suited to a champion driver, which made the combination of said car and driver unbeatable. It would have been a different car without his input.


I don't think we're that far off really.