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G.
12-09-05, 01:35 PM
So you're stuck in snow-bogged traffic, pizzing and moaning, when BAM, like out of a movie a jet airplane comes sliding at your vehicle.

RIP Joshua, 6 yrs. old, forever. (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20051209/ap_on_re_us/midway_accident;_ylt=Au436L_ayG.J3VPIUq.t13UDW7oF; _ylu=X3oDMTBiMW04NW9mBHNlYwMlJVRPUCUl) :(

dando
12-09-05, 01:59 PM
How tragic. I can't imagine the grief over this. :(

-Kevin

chop456
12-09-05, 02:56 PM
I've landed at MDW in big snow and was more concerned than I've ever been on an airplane for this exact reason. It's in the middle of a neighborhood, and this was bound to happen sooner or later.

RIP

nrc
12-09-05, 04:28 PM
Saw that. Eerie photos of the plane sitting on the freeway among cars. Sad to see anyone hurt, but if the freeway was busy it's a miracle that more weren't killed.

Gangrel
12-09-05, 05:10 PM
Central Ave. isn't a freeway. It is just a 4 lane surface road. What you saw on the traffic is pretty much what you get there. Tragic none the less, but if you were imagining cars zipping along at 70 mph when a plane rolled across, that's not a scenereo you would ever see there.

Chitowncartfreak
12-09-05, 06:01 PM
Central Ave. isn't a freeway. It is just a 4 lane surface road. What you saw on the traffic is pretty much what you get there. Tragic none the less, but if you were imagining cars zipping along at 70 mph when a plane rolled across, that's not a scenereo you would ever see there.

Especially last evening - with all the snow, I don't think anyone made it above 7 mph in the city.

Very sad story. :(

RacinM3
12-09-05, 06:09 PM
Southwest pilots are earning a bad rep for this in aviation circles. Same thing happened in Burbank, CA a few years ago. Not much excuse for running off the end of a runway, unless it's mechanical.

G.
12-09-05, 06:16 PM
Southwest pilots are earning a bad rep for this in aviation circles. Same thing happened in Burbank, CA a few years ago. Not much excuse for running off the end of a runway, unless it's mechanical.MDW has short runways. It wasn't that long ago that it was prop planes only.

I heard third-hand that they had to use the runway with the tailwind to avoid flying into ORD's flight path (ORD is the 800 lb gorilla).

In general, pilots don't like to fly into MDW unless conditions are perfect.

I am not disagreeing, M3, just giving some facts, as I heard 'em.

Gangrel
12-09-05, 06:23 PM
MDW has short runways. It wasn't that long ago that it was prop planes only.

Depends on how you define "wasn't that long ago." I am 32, lived in the S/W suburbs most of my life, and for as long as I can recall, they were flying jets out of Midway.

G.
12-09-05, 06:42 PM
Depends on how you define "wasn't that long ago." I am 32, lived in the S/W suburbs most of my life, and for as long as I can recall, they were flying jets out of Midway.from a yahoo article.
The airport, surrounded by homes and businesses, has shorter runways than most major airports because it was originally built to handle smaller, propeller planes. Larger planes land at O'Hare International.

Guess I thought that I remembered a controversial opening to jet traffic, but I guess that I am wrong.

My bad.

Hard Driver
12-09-05, 06:52 PM
What a tragidy.

Sounds like landing there with the short runways in bad weather is very difficult and not all the blame should go to the pilot, but some to the airport for having not done anything about a real potential risk.

Gangrel
12-09-05, 06:54 PM
from a yahoo article.

Guess I thought that I remembered a controversial opening to jet traffic, but I guess that I am wrong.

My bad.

No prob. A quick google search turned up 1951 as the first time they landed a jet liner at Midway.

RacinM3
12-09-05, 07:24 PM
I base my comments only on a discussion with my brother in law, who's a chief pilot in a major US corporation's corporate flight program. They're based out of Burbank.

I don't buy the media's comments about short runways. While the runways at the Midway airport "may be shorter than the average airport", their length is long enough for the FAA to approve landing fully-laden 737's there, otherwise they would simply not land them there. The rules regarding this are extensive and clear.

Unless this was a mechanical, this dude simply blew his approach, tailwind or not. Exactly like what happened at Burbank.

oddlycalm
12-09-05, 08:17 PM
I don't buy the media's comments about short runways. While the runways at the Midway airport "may be shorter than the average airport", their length is long enough for the FAA to approve landing fully-laden 737's there, otherwise they would simply not land them there. The rules regarding this are extensive and clear.

Unless this was a mechanical, this dude simply blew his approach, tailwind or not. Exactly like what happened at Burbank. Yup, the runway is either long enough to be legal or it's not. On a shorter rollout you just need to stick the landing. If you aren't down in the first 1000ft. of runway, you go around and try it again. This pilot didn't. Doesn't matter how many hours he's got in type, he had a situation where he needed to waive off and he didn't.

That said, weather can complicate such judgements, and if he encountered wind shear after he turned onto final he may have felt he had to do what he did. Climbouts in wind shear conditions don't always happen. I lost some biz friends in a wind sheer wreck in New Orleans. No chance, one minute the plane was a 1000ft. and climbing normally and a few seconds later it was slammed into the bayou as if a giant hand had slapped it down. :(

oc

indyfan31
12-10-05, 02:59 AM
Unless this was a mechanical, this dude simply blew his approach, tailwind or not. Exactly like what happened at Burbank.
The Burbank crash happened in perfect weather, this one was far from perfect. I haven't heard anyone suggest that he blew the landing. A passenger interviewed by the local news said he could feel the pilot "pumping the brakes" in an effort to stop but with no results.

KLang
12-10-05, 09:51 AM
A passenger interviewed by the local news said he could feel the pilot "pumping the brakes" in an effort to stop but with no results.

I heard something similar in a interview on CNN last night. Thrust reversers deploy, brakes applied several times but no slowing, and then the nose gear collapsed. The passenger wasn't even asked if they were still on the runway when the nose gear went down.

Of course CNN is playing up the 'runway too short' angle. :shakehead

TRANSAM
12-10-05, 02:44 PM
http://video.msn.com/v/us/v.htm?g=46e8fd62-6016-4cca-bd1b-e6c83bcba1ab&f=copy

This is how you do it. See video 'low flying 747'

TrueBrit
12-10-05, 06:08 PM
The weather was atrocious that night, I am amazed that they were still allowing planes to land at all....

trish
12-10-05, 06:38 PM
http://video.msn.com/v/us/v.htm?g=46e8fd62-6016-4cca-bd1b-e6c83bcba1ab&f=copy

This is how you do it. See video 'low flying 747'

That looked scary. I can't believe those people just stood there.

And funny UK CHristmas commercial. :laugh:

TRANSAM
12-10-05, 07:53 PM
That looked scary. I can't believe those people just stood there.

And funny UK CHristmas commercial. :laugh:

Here's a guy who doesn't 'just stand there' :

http://www.alexisparkinn.com/aviation_videos.htm

Scroll 3/4 way down to "Oh My God!'

trish
12-10-05, 09:07 PM
Here's a guy who doesn't 'just stand there' :

http://www.alexisparkinn.com/aviation_videos.htm

Scroll 3/4 was down to "Oh My God!'
Just like a guy to think about sex at a time like that. :shakehead

tllips
12-11-05, 12:56 AM
Guess I thought that I remembered a controversial opening to jet traffic, but I guess that I am wrong.

My bad.


Midway has been home to private jets as far back as I can remember, but there were no commercial airlines flying out of there (that I remember) until Midway Airlines and Southwest began flying in the late 70's or early 80's. Even in the first couple of years of Southwest flying out of MDW, I remember the terminal was mostly a ghost town.

TrueBrit
12-11-05, 01:28 AM
Here's a guy who doesn't 'just stand there' :

http://www.alexisparkinn.com/aviation_videos.htm

Scroll 3/4 was down to "Oh My God!'


Methinks Alain De Cadenet needed to change his underpants after that little fly-by!!

Andrew Longman
12-11-05, 02:00 AM
http://video.msn.com/v/us/v.htm?g=46e8fd62-6016-4cca-bd1b-e6c83bcba1ab&f=copy

This is how you do it. See video 'low flying 747'

that's St Maartin, no? Stayed in a hotel at the end of that runway on honeymoon. Amazing take offs too. They lock the brakes, go full throttle, gulp hard and let her rip.

RacinM3
12-11-05, 03:43 AM
The Burbank crash happened in perfect weather, this one was far from perfect. I haven't heard anyone suggest that he blew the landing. A passenger interviewed by the local news said he could feel the pilot "pumping the brakes" in an effort to stop but with no results.

See, I don't buy this either. Unless I'm mistaken, all Southwest 737's nowadays are new enough to have auto-brakes. If the pilot didn't engage them in these conditions, then he blew that, too. Be careful about applying too much credence to passenger accounts.

I got $10 on what the NTSB has to say about this one. Any takers? ;)

Stu
12-11-05, 08:03 AM
The night of this crash, my stupid local news went to Hopkins airport to interview passengers.

"Do you feel safe about your flight after hearing that this plane skidded off the runway and crashed into a street killing a young boy?"

"OMG A PLANE SKIDDED OFF THE RUNWAY???? NOW I'M SCARED!!!!!"

Stupid reporters.

trish
12-11-05, 12:36 PM
This AP article says it was mechanical.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10388519/

mapguy
12-12-05, 07:09 AM
This AP article says it was mechanical.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10388519/

Yup, that's what I had heard on another forum. As for the runway being too short. Those nattering nabobs of negativity can get over themselves. Here at KALB our main runway is less than a 1000ft longer than MDW's. We have a UPS 767 here every morning. A few months ago a Contintental 777 had to be diverted here as there were thunderstorms at Newark. Hell, Air Force One visited here back when Clinton was prez.

It ain't the runway size.

Gangrel
12-12-05, 11:34 AM
With all the talk of brake distance and snow on the ground, I couldn't help but wonder at the time...haven't I always heard that the thrust reversers have much more to do with stopping the plane than the brakes on the landing gear? First thing I thought at the time was didn't he deploy the thrust reversers?

This latest piece of news makes a lot more sense...