GM layoffs

[Ankf00]

over next 3 years they're going to shut down 12 operations and lay-off 30,000 people :eek:

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/11/21/business/21cnd-gm.html?hp&ex=1132635600&en=8a17583b3d873286&ei=5094&partner=homepage

:(

[devilmaster]

over next 3 years they're going to shut down 12 operations and lay-off 30,000 people :eek:

:(

lay-offs is kind of misleading, ank. when a company takes a few years to do this, a part of those 30 grand will be people still working who have passed retirement age but still work, some will be close to retirement age who get a retirement package, some will be workers with less than 5 years who are offered a buyout.

There will be layoffs, yes. But not all 30 grand.

True story - when I worked at the Ram Van plant, there was a janitor who hit mandatory retirement age of 65. When he had started at chryslers, he had lied about his age - so in the end, he had a little over 50 years of seniority. He had his retirement party at the plant, with the plant manager and the union bosses and such.

Next day - he showed up for work, and had to be led out of the plant by security. It was all he knew. My old man worked at the minivan plant for 38 years before he took a retirement package to entice him to finally retire.

My real question in all of this - How's that 'You pay what us employees pay' pricing deal working for the company now? :rolleyes:

You flood the market with new vehicles and then sales dip after that. Hope that deal really helped the bottom line.

[Wabbit]

GM and other manufacturers better do something quick. I read a few months ago that GM is heading to a $500 BILLION bankruptcy. And Ford isn't too far behind.

While all the Japanese were prepared for the end of the SUV craze, the US manufacturers were designing more. The Japanese are releasing more fuel effeciant cars, the big 3 are releasing more SUVs.

[Stu]

over next 3 years they're going to shut down 12 operations and lay-off 30,000 people :eek:

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/11/21/business/21cnd-gm.html?hp&ex=1132635600&en=8a17583b3d873286&ei=5094&partner=homepage

:(


If they built a better car you could turn that frown upside down.

[Wabbit]

It's more of, can they build a car that people want. I bought my Acura because the american car manufacturers didn't have anything with the options I wanted. Looks like I am going to buy another Honda next year for the same reason.

Someone please tell me why the Japanese, Germans, and Koreans will sell you 4-door cars with manual transmissions and V-6s where the adults can actually use the back seat, but the American manufacturers won't do it with their 4-poppers.

[spinner26]

This is the list, courtesy of USAToday:

Assembly plants
Oklahoma City, Okla., will cease production in early 2006.
Lansing, Mich., Craft Centre will cease production in mid-2006.
Spring Hill, Tenn., Plant/Line No. 1, will cease production at the endof 2006.
Doraville, Ga., will cease production at the end of its current products' life cycle in 2008.
Third shift will be removed at Oshawa Car Plant No. 1, in Ontario, Canada, in the second half of 2006. Oshawa Car Plant No. 2 will cease production after the current product runs out in 2008.
Third shift will be removed at Moraine, Ohio, during 2006, with timing to be based on market demand.

Stamping, power train and service operations
Lansing, Mich., Metal Center will cease production in 2006.
Pittsburgh, Pa., Metal Center will cease production in 2007.
Parts Distribution Center in Portland, Ore., will cease operations in 2006.
Parts Distribution Center in St. Louis, Mo., will cease warehousing activities and will be converted to a collision center facility in 2006.
Parts Processing Center in Ypsilanti, Mich., will cease operations in 2007.
One additional Parts Processing Center, to be announced at a later date, will also cease operations in 2007.
St. Catharines Ontario Street West powertrain components facility in Ontario, Canada, will cease production in 2008.
Flint, Mich., North 3800 engine facility (``Factory 36'') will cease production in 2008.

[Stu]

It's more of, can they build a car that people want. I bought my Acura because the american car manufacturers didn't have anything with the options I wanted. Looks like I am going to buy another Honda next year for the same reason.

Someone please tell me why the Japanese, Germans, and Koreans will sell you 4-door cars with manual transmissions and V-6s where the adults can actually use the back seat, but the American manufacturers won't do it with their 4-poppers.

I'd say building something people want = better.

Better is in the eye of the consumer, and they have spoken on which is better.

[oddlycalm]

I know a lot of people that this is going to effect, so it's not a happy day, but it's no surprise either. I'll spare you a plant by plant analysis of this, but there are a few broad issues that are surprising and that make me wonder if the people making the decisions really know what they are doing.

- Closing the Flint V6 plant and leaving the Flint V8 plant open in the face of what looks like smaller vehicle demand increase is a serious puzzler. No doubt that V8 is a far superior plant, but it's specifically tooled for large V8 engines that are also produced at Tonawanda and St. Catherines.

- Closing all but one line at the Saturn plant and cancelling the new Saturn engine program makes little sense when that is the class of vehicles they will need in this market.

- Closing St. Catherines engine is going to hurt them because it is their only engine plant that can produce any engine in the corporation without significant retooling time, so it offers both flexibility and economy and can do short production runs profitably. Losing it means an additional year ramp up on any future new engine programs. It also means closing the only marine V8 line.

My take on these decisions is that it amounts to capitulation rather than getting to a place where they can come back with new product that addresses the current market. It appears they have decided to stick with a seriously declining number of their large vehicles that carry high profit and ride them into the ground. While I suppose it amounts to "play the hand you hold," it seems to ignore the future. Of course it's fair to say that if they don't survive the next couple years, there won't be a future... :shakehead

This is a company that has painted itself into a corner over the last 40yrs and has only focused on quarterly performance and never had a 20yr plan. :thumdown: If they dump their pension liabilities in bankruptcy, we all get to pay while their former employees get 30 cents on the dollar for a lifetime of work.

oc

[racer2c]

The big three learned in the 90's that instead of ramping up quality and features they could just make rental fleets passenger cars and make money off of the pickups and SUVs/minivan.

[Stu]

heres my take:

Normally lay offs in such an industry shouldnt be such a big deal. 30,000 gm employees lose their jobs. GM makes fewer cars. Demand is the same for cars so other companies pick up the slack. They make more cars and hire more people to make those cars. Net wash.

The problem is the other companies are japanese companies. While they manufacture their cars here, and hire US workers, the profits go back to Japan.

But seriously, whoever makes the better car will get the sales. The big 3 have realized that, they just don't know how to fix the problem. The UAW and US government certainly are not helping.

Thats why in the past 4 years there have been 2 nissans, 2 hondas, and a subaru in my driveway.

[coolhand]

I am sure these "skilled" workers will be able to apply their "skills" elsewhere.

[oddlycalm]

The problem is the other companies are japanese companies. While they manufacture their cars here, and hire US workers, the profits go back to Japan. Sort of, but the bigger problem is that a) only a fraction of the market share will come from foreign owned US plants and b) they are not located in the same areas. There will be a lot of people with a very specific skill set that won't be able to find work doing the same thing, many in areas already hit hard by plant closures.

I am sure these "skilled" workers will be able to apply their "skills" elsewhere. So it's the people in the plants that made bad product decisions for the last 35yrs, right? You may want to think about how much of your opinion if based in fact and how much is ideology.

Your inference that somehow unskilled people are employed in large numbers in these plants, whether manufacturing, assembly or distribution, totally ignores the level of technology and automation that exists in them today. I'd be curious to learn which specific jobs you imagine unskilled workers still do? Let me give you a clue, the only jobs people still perform are ones that require human judgement calls. The "strong back" stuff was easy for machines to do and has be automated since the advent of microprocessors and smart motion control devices.

oc

[Ankf00]

he probably thinks the interior of the plants are something akin to an episode of the Flintstones :D


anywho, I'm on record as not really caring much for the union monkies over at my gig in general (huge understatement), but there's still plenty of extremely skilled labor and plenty of ppl w/ good work ethic over in the PWB and CCA shops... can't skimp on quality.

[KLang]

I'd love to help out one of the domestic manufacturers with my business. They just don't make anything I would consider buying. :shakehead

I've been driving Honda and Acuras for a while and I'm feeling it's time for a change next year when the lease on the TL is up. It will likely be either another flavor of Japanese or more likely German.

[coolhand]

So it's the people in the plants that made bad product decisions for the last 35yrs, right? You may want to think about how much of your opinion if based in fact and how much is ideology.

Your inference that somehow unskilled people are employed in large numbers in these plants, whether manufacturing, assembly or distribution, totally ignores the level of technology and automation that exists in them today. I'd be curious to learn which specific jobs you imagine unskilled workers still do? Let me give you a clue, the only jobs people still perform are ones that require human judgement calls. The "strong back" stuff was easy for machines to do and has be automated since the advent of microprocessors and smart motion control devices.

oc

They don't decide the products and such, but their high costs do effect the bottomline. Honda and Toyota don't spend as much on labor and can afford to spend more on better designs, thus better products(I could also argue their plants provide higher quality too). The labor situations in midwest and detroit will kill manufacturing in the region. IF Ford and GM go under and come back around in a few years why would they go back to detroit and deal with UAW and such when the can drastically cut costs by having plants elsewhere?

The same thing can be said about United versus Southwest.

[coolhand]

he probably thinks the interior of the plants are something akin to an episode of the Flintstones :D


anywho, I'm on record as not really caring much for the union monkies over at my gig in general (huge understatement), but there's still plenty of extremely skilled labor and plenty of ppl w/ good work ethic over in the PWB and CCA shops... can't skimp on quality.

I toured the Boeing C-17 plant at Long Beach last year, and the guy giving the tour of the plant went over how the whole thing was designed to deal with this union problem and that, and he talked about how he has had to fight with the unions and remind them that they wont have any jobs if the keep up with their antics and such.

It convinced me to go into the EE direction where i wont have to deal with that crap in most cases.

[Ankf00]

I toured the Boeing C-17 plant at Long Beach last year, and the guy giving the tour of the plant went over how the whole thing was designed to deal with this union problem and that, and he talked about how he has had to fight with the unions and remind them that they wont have any jobs if the keep up with their antics and such.
well duh, everyone complains about that stuff, I do too, but it's some parts hyperbole some parts frustration with dealing with a few tools who are in your way. point remains they're still a skilled workforce and you can't just hire off any random guy off the street and still put out quality product time after time. get involved with some shop work then come back and say these ppl are unskilled.

It convinced me to go into the EE direction where i wont have to deal with that crap in most cases.
you are sorely mistaken if you think this is the case. hope you have fun when you have to get involved with the fabrication, testing, and verification your PWB and CCA designs...


The same thing can be said about United versus Southwest. that has to do with fuel hedging mostly, they're going to be hit with some huge costs in a few years when that runs out. Herb Kelleher's already focusing staff on solving this problem without raising fares so they don't get into the same bind, situation completely different from this one.

[coolhand]

you are sorely mistaken if you think this is the case. hope you have fun when you have to get involved with the fabrication, testing, and verification your PWB and CCA designs...

Not with small products that are assemblied by machinery in small plants across the globe. You don't see union workers a the lab assembling fiber optic components and circuitry.

I don't plan on making transitor radios, its a little broader major then say industrial systems engineering.

[Ankf00]

You don't see union workers a the lab assembling fiber optic components and circuitry.

yes, you do... who do you think does your PWB layup? who do you think sets up the assembly of the cable?

[JLMannin]

- Closing all but one line at the Saturn plant and cancelling the new Saturn engine program makes little sense when that is the class of vehicles they will need in this market.oc

The S-Series Saturns were great cars. I bought one new, and traded it in for an L-series when it came out. The S-series needed oil changes, gas, and scheduled maintenance, and that was it. The L-Series and the SUV looking thingy were total crap - squeaky, loud, rattly, always needed to be taken to the shp when it was time for an oil change type of quality. I don't know about the Ion, but since it was not an original joint venture design, I will assume it is crap, too.

I'll never buy a new Saturn again.

[Sean O'Gorman]

My opinion is that the problem with the Big Three is that they are making cars that people want to buy, but nothing that anyone wants to own.

Sure you've got Hemi Chargers, V-8 Impalas, 250 hp turbo Neons, retro Mustangs, supercharged blah blah blahs, but the general public simply don't have enough of an interest in cars to justify buying one. The typical car owner I encounter neglects their car, only wanting it to be reliable, comfortable, and fuel efficient. Once you realize there is nothing useful about having a RWD V-8 sedan that only gets 20 mpg, you are going to start wishing you owned the Accord or Camry. Seems like most people have already figured that out.

[Wabbit]

The S-Series Saturns were great cars. I bought one new, and traded it in for an L-series when it came out. The S-series needed oil changes, gas, and scheduled maintenance, and that was it. The L-Series and the SUV looking thingy were total crap - squeaky, loud, rattly, always needed to be taken to the shp when it was time for an oil change type of quality. I don't know about the Ion, but since it was not an original joint venture design, I will assume it is crap, too.

I'll never buy a new Saturn again.

I miss my S series. I owned 3. Didn't have any problems with the VUE. The interior design of the ION is what sold me on the Acura. After telling Saturn corporate by email, and talking to a regional rep, the info I got back made it seem like Saturn wanted to be part of the rice burner crowd.

[devilmaster]

coolhand - if you think the 'line' is inhabited by neanderthals who grunt and groan while they do some simple monkey job - well, get out into the real world.

I am not, nor ever will be a union apologist. But the simple truth is this - the vast majority of people on the line are hard workers, who come in and get paid to, IMO, destroy their bodies one part at a time. I knew fellow workers that had college and university degrees, and a couple who had teaching certificates, who all were smart people, working on the line.

Those people come in every day, do their job, put in their 8 hours and go home.

Hell, I'd put a few of them 'skilled' (as you put it) line workers up against what chrysler hired as so called 'engineers' anyday. I remember one who came up to check the station I was at, which had a Kuka machine that put sealant around the chimsel light, and I told him not to go near it during its cycle, cause it had a sensor switch for safety. Guess what, the gomer went and stuck his head in anyways, tripped the machine off, and stopped me from installing chimsels for a good number of vans.

If one thinks that all workers on a unionized line are a bunch of unskilled yahoos, I would hope that the person making that assumption has at least been on the line, putting in a few hours before making a comment.

[racer2c]

My opinion is that the problem with the Big Three is that they are making cars that people want to buy, but nothing that anyone wants to own.

Sure you've got Hemi Chargers, V-8 Impalas, 250 hp turbo Neons, retro Mustangs, supercharged blah blah blahs, but the general public simply don't have enough of an interest in cars to justify buying one. The typical car owner I encounter neglects their car, only wanting it to be reliable, comfortable, and fuel efficient. Once you realize there is nothing useful about having a RWD V-8 sedan that only gets 20 mpg, you are going to start wishing you owned the Accord or Camry. Seems like most people have already figured that out.


Thats pretty spot on IMO. Some of those cars are pretty cool, intended to be show room lures. I think the big 3 have tried to bring the quality up also. I have an '03 Dodge pickup, V8, 4x4 I love this truck! Not one single problem and just ticked off 60K. I have a good friend with a '03 Chrysler Town & Country with 105K, not one single problem. My Toyota crazy brother in law has a '02 Privus or whatever their minivans are called and it has already had two faulty fuel injectors replaced along with an AC compressor. He still swears its the best made car on the planet. These kinds of he said she said stuff could fill 100 pages. Reliability has increased (except for my in laws '01 Caddy. Biggest POS I've ever seen. You name it, they've replaced it.) but like you said are they making cars anyone needs as opposed to wants.

The guy on the radio tonight, when reporting on this layoff said that "...this is simple business. GM just doesn't have the customers."

A quick look at this and you can see why. Not even NASCAR can get these things out of the showrooms.

http://www.davo.com/_248-588-9600_/images/chevy/Chevy_Monte_Carlo_LTFront.jpg

[RichK]

a Kuka machine that put sealant around the chimsel light

I don't know what that is, but I need one!!!!!

[racer2c]

I don't know what that is, but I need one!!!!!

They have lights for your chimsel now? All this time I've been sealing my chimsel in the dark! :)

[devilmaster]

I don't know what that is, but I need one!!!!!

:laugh:

Ok. http://www.kuka.com/en/

[Ankf00]

wonder if you could program one to pick up empty imperial pint glass, open tap, tilt glass, close tap, then replace in front of you full of sweet barley goodness.

[Ziggy]

Why in the world would you buy a Honda?

maybe your kids can move to India and be a IT wizzard

:thumdown:

[oddlycalm]

My opinion is that the problem with the Big Three is that they are making cars that people want to buy, but nothing that anyone wants to own. You get it. Personal taste on the "want to buy part," but otherwise correct. Until they come with products people want to own it's game, set, match.

oc

[oddlycalm]

They don't decide the products and such, but their high costs do effect the bottomline. Honda and Toyota don't spend as much on labor and can afford to spend more on better designs, thus better products(I could also argue their plants provide higher quality too). The labor situations in midwest and detroit will kill manufacturing in the region. IF Ford and GM go under and come back around in a few years why would they go back to detroit and deal with UAW and such when the can drastically cut costs by having plants elsewhere? Wow, where to start. First of all, Honda and Toyota as well as all the German companies pay more for labor per hour than Ford, GM and DCX do. Why do you think all these Japanese and German companies are locating here...? When you look at actual productivity it gets even worse. Not sure where you're getting your information, but I've been supporting these companies around the world since the late 70's when the value of the dollar did make US labor relatively expensive, unlike now. It's not the wage levels or the unions, it's the pension cost and health care expenses.

GM, Ford and DCX have had plants all over the world for the last 60yrs and can and do locate anywhere they want. Aside from powertrain and bodies, they already spun off their manufacturing divisions (Visteon & Delphi). In the event they go bankrupt they won't be able to afford to open new plants anywhere because they will be subject to a bankruptcy judges rulings and lender requirements. If you think they will try to ditch the unions where do you suppose they will get the people that know how to make the product...?

You may also find it interesting to know that divisions like Holden (GM Oz) and Opel that do good product planning are successful and do quite well even though they actually have higher labor costs than GM North America. Remember, it's not the cost of the labor, it's the that cost vs what you can charge for the product.

oc

[racer2c]

Why in the world would you buy a Honda?

maybe your kids can move to India and be a IT wizzard

:thumdown:

:thumbup: :rofl:

[extramundane]

The S-Series Saturns were great cars. I bought one new, and traded it in for an L-series when it came out. The S-series needed oil changes, gas, and scheduled maintenance, and that was it. The L-Series and the SUV looking thingy were total crap - squeaky, loud, rattly, always needed to be taken to the shp when it was time for an oil change type of quality.

I'll never buy a new Saturn again.

My 2000 LS2, it's slowly disintegrating transmission, all 3 sets of rear taillight assemblies it's been through, and the iffy electrical system agree.

:thumdown:

[coolhand]

yes, you do... who do you think does your PWB layup? who do you think sets up the assembly of the cable?

if there are they hardly resemble Detroit-like union organizations.

[Ankf00]

if there are they hardly resemble Detroit-like union organizations.
and you would know this through what experience exactly? a high school tour of the Boeing Long Beach plant last year doesn't count ;)

[coolhand]

coolhand - if you think the 'line' is inhabited by neanderthals who grunt and groan while they do some simple monkey job - well, get out into the real world.

I am not, nor ever will be a union apologist. But the simple truth is this - the vast majority of people on the line are hard workers, who come in and get paid to, IMO, destroy their bodies one part at a time. I knew fellow workers that had college and university degrees, and a couple who had teaching certificates, who all were smart people, working on the line.

Those people come in every day, do their job, put in their 8 hours and go home.

Hell, I'd put a few of them 'skilled' (as you put it) line workers up against what chrysler hired as so called 'engineers' anyday. I remember one who came up to check the station I was at, which had a Kuka machine that put sealant around the chimsel light, and I told him not to go near it during its cycle, cause it had a sensor switch for safety. Guess what, the gomer went and stuck his head in anyways, tripped the machine off, and stopped me from installing chimsels for a good number of vans.

If one thinks that all workers on a unionized line are a bunch of unskilled yahoos, I would hope that the person making that assumption has at least been on the line, putting in a few hours before making a comment.


Thats fine, So if there wkill are so useful and unique they should not have a problem applying them to other sectors of the economy where they wont have to be part of a grunt and groaning Union. They served their purpose at one time but now the government has assured safe and fair working conditions. Now they just are about politics padding their pockets. Don't get me started on Teachers Unions who are about anything but teaching.

[coolhand]

Wow, where to start. First of all, Honda and Toyota as well as all the German companies pay more for labor per hour than Ford, GM and DCX do. Why do you think all these Japanese and German companies are locating here...? When you look at actual productivity it gets even worse. Not sure where you're getting your information, but I've been supporting these companies around the world since the late 70's when the value of the dollar did make US labor relatively expensive, unlike now. It's not the wage levels or the unions, it's the pension cost and health care expenses.

I did not mention German Car makers, labour is really bad there and so is the economy (which apparently has th GDP of Wisconson or somthing). Japan is mostly autmated manufacturing because labor has always been high there, So its apples and oranges to compare the two labor costs. Thats why japan has always been a leader in robotics and such, They don't have the types of unions we do here that prevent the implimentation of technonogies that reduce costs.

For example here on the west coast the long shoreman union blocked the placing of barcodes on crates comming in and out of port to keep inventory. That would save alot of time to just scan them quickly versus having an army of people with clipboards hand checking each crate. The shipping companies would not even fire those people, just not replace them when the retired. But nope, the union there blocked it, because it means less dues and less money for the fat cats to pass around for other uses. Its neanderthalic organizations like these that are stopping our economy from moving forward in certain areas and are making no effort to help the companies they work for reduce costs because it might mean a little less people in the workforce in the future and it might make their job a little harder.


GM, Ford and DCX have had plants all over the world for the last 60yrs and can and do locate anywhere they want. Aside from powertrain and bodies, they already spun off their manufacturing divisions (Visteon & Delphi). In the event they go bankrupt they won't be able to afford to open new plants anywhere because they will be subject to a bankruptcy judges rulings and lender requirements. If you think they will try to ditch the unions where do you suppose they will get the people that know how to make the product...?

The will not be able to ditch the unions totally but they will drastically renegoiate their contracts and agreements, it wont work with the current system. Companies like Visteon and Delphi were set up ititially to get around labor contracts with the original companies, but that failed and they could not get around it. (now Delphi is bankrupt).


You may also find it interesting to know that divisions like Holden (GM Oz) and Opel that do good product planning are successful and do quite well even though they actually have higher labor costs than GM North America. Remember, it's not the cost of the labor, it's the that cost vs what you can charge for the product.

oc

Opel is very successful in europe reltive to its NA counterpart., same with holden. But thats a totally different market and wont pretend to know the dynamics of the labor markets in those countries.

[coolhand]

and you would know this through what experience exactly? a high school tour of the Boeing Long Beach plant last year doesn't count ;)

nope, I know it through where my family members have worked. the small unions in Tech industries are almost non-unions when you comparing to detroit.

[Ankf00]

I've never worked before.
fixed that for ya :)

[FTG]

Why do you think all these Japanese and German companies are locating here...?
oc

Because the politicans won't let them make all their cars in China and they can set up shop in a "right to work state" and still have way lower costs than the Big Three. How many BMW factories in Michigan? How many unionized workers does Toyota and Honda have?

The reason GM can't make cars that "people want to buy" isn't because American workers, engineers or managers are idiots, it's because it costs GM $1,500 more to make a car and no one wants to pay $1,500 more for a GM car.

If GM cuts costs enough, they'll be fine. If not, they'll go bankrupt. The mathical logical of an income statement is pretty simple, even if few people understand it.

[racer2c]

fixed that for ya :)
:rofl:

[eiregosod]

who was lending GM & ford all that money to stay in business? The financial analysts labelled GM/Ford stock as being 'junk', the analysts thought that GM couldnt repay the loans. No more access to easy & cheap money.

as for Toyota, they spent $2bn on their cocaine binge in f1. That was enough money to launch 5 new models.

Who knows, GM announced losses in 2001, maybe they had to repo all those high performance cars from the paper-millionaires after the dot-com crash. Then from 2002 increases in the price of gas meant that gas-guzzlers were a no no.

[devilmaster]

Thats fine, So if there wkill are so useful and unique they should not have a problem applying them to other sectors of the economy where they wont have to be part of a grunt and groaning Union. They served their purpose at one time but now the government has assured safe and fair working conditions. Now they just are about politics padding their pockets. Don't get me started on Teachers Unions who are about anything but teaching.

Well then, don't bash the workers on the line if you want to bash unions. I could go into about 20 posts straight of my opinions on auto unions (being a former union member and autoworker) and teacher unions (in my current job as a school board trustee).

But your first post didn't talk about that. You bashed the skill level of auto workers - and you did it again above in your response. Perhaps if you go and work the line, get some experience at it, and then perhaps your opinion won't sound so utterly stupid. :rolleyes:

[coolhand]

Well then, don't bash the workers on the line if you want to bash unions. I could go into about 20 posts straight of my opinions on auto unions (being a former union member and autoworker) and teacher unions (in my current job as a school board trustee).

But your first post didn't talk about that. You bashed the skill level of auto workers - and you did it again above in your response. Perhaps if you go and work the line, get some experience at it, and then perhaps your opinion won't sound so utterly stupid. :rolleyes:

how long does it take to learn to operate on a line?

[coolhand]

I don't know you :)

you sure don't :p

[chop456]

as for Toyota, they spent $2bn on their cocaine binge in f1. That was enough money to launch 5 new models.

5 new models they don't need. GM builds 3 versions of cars that nobody wants. Ever look at option lists on GM cars? It's ridiculous and needlessly complicated. Um, I want the Tahoe LS with power mirrors, so I have to get the towing package, lipstick mirror and headlight washer package, too. The Japanese cars are generally 1 or 2 trim levels with 1 or 2 options. If they share platforms, they're not needlessly duplicating the cars. GMC, Pontiac and Buick should be killed.

Labor costs don't break your back if your products are moving. They simply don't build the right cars. What have they introduced recently?

A Blazer with a sliding roof :gomer:
The Solstice. Great, but not a volume car.
Corvette - ditto.
Cadillac V-spec - ditto.
Pontiac G6 - decent car, if not a bit overpriced.
Chevy HSR - missed the retro boat

Toyota, Nissan and Honda all have minicars in the pipeline for this spring. $14,000 and 40mpg. The big 3 have the Aveo. :gomer:

Car shopping 6 years ago, I wanted a 4-dr hatchback with good mileage. There is no American car that fit the bill. They're out of the running by default.

Lutz is 10 years too late.

[Ankf00]

you sure don't :p

still doesn't change the fact I'd put the skill level of the lady buliding my cables and putting together my electronics boxes right now far above a student w/ 0 experience and she sure as hell has more skill and knowledge than I do at this stuff despite the fact I've got the B.S., but then again, she must be putting together transistor radios according to you :rolleyes:


how long does it take to learn to operate on a line?
if you could hire just any random guy off the street put em through 1 day training and have them put out quality product time and time again, my roommate wouldn't have the hiring headaches he's had the past year, but I'm sure you know far more than him about what skill level is required, I mean, what does someone who's had his BSEE and been managing a high-tech, low output shop for a while know anyways right? ya, that's it... :)

[TKGAngel]

Chevy HSR - missed the retro boat

Every article I saw about the HHR basically said to go buy a PT Cruiser. The Cruiser had more horsepower and a better design for a more economical price.

What I never understood about the auto industry is why companies will take models that are popular and selling and completely redesign them, and brand them as a new car, which probably won't sell. Why tempt fate if you have a winner on your hands?

[racer2c]

5 new models they don't need. GM builds 3 versions of cars that nobody wants. Ever look at option lists on GM cars? It's ridiculous and needlessly complicated. Um, I want the Tahoe LS with power mirrors, so I have to get the towing package, lipstick mirror and headlight washer package, too. The Japanese cars are generally 1 or 2 trim levels with 1 or 2 options. If they share platforms, they're not needlessly duplicating the cars. GMC, Pontiac and Buick should be killed.

Labor costs don't break your back if your products are moving. They simply don't build the right cars. What have they introduced recently?

A Blazer with a sliding roof :gomer:
The Solstice. Great, but not a volume car.
Corvette - ditto.
Cadillac V-spec - ditto.
Pontiac G6 - decent car, if not a bit overpriced.
Chevy HSR - missed the retro boat

Toyota, Nissan and Honda all have minicars in the pipeline for this spring. $14,000 and 40mpg. The big 3 have the Aveo. :gomer:

Car shopping 6 years ago, I wanted a 4-dr hatchback with good mileage. There is no American car that fit the bill. They're out of the running by default.

Lutz is 10 years too late.


Good post. :thumbup:

[oddlycalm]

Lutz is 10 years too late. Yup, and the rest of your post was on target as well. Worse for GM, which was losing ground in the 80's and 90's, the auto biz today is much more competetive.

You're exactly right about the endless variations of the same platforms. GM could save itself a fortune by killing the division overheads that offer no current value, which is all but two. You have the standard line and the upscale line, and you dump everything else. It eliminates a tremendous amount of overhead and duplication of process. Even just the cost of testing the repetive models runs into huge money, let alone designing them, creating the mulitiple sets stamping dies of in a size where they have to be moved around on railroad cars and cost millions each, etc., etc. Might have made sense when there were only three companies in the US market, but that situatuion changed decades ago.

They need to focus on the basics and execute three platforms well. Small, medium and large. If they can get those to work as well as the BMW 3, 5 & 7 series that would be a good benchmark to start with. And screw the flying livingroom suspensions. In order to be safe cars need to turn and stop on command, not pitch, yaw and roll like a drunk hooker. Concentrate on quality and elegance, not tacked on crap and faux anything.

GM spun off the divisions like Delco-Remy Anderson and Magnequench that could have given them a serious advantage in the hybrid car business and they junked work on electric motors that was year ahead of the Japanese companies due to a brainfart on the 14th floor, so that ship has sailed. They need a strategy for how to deal with that challenge, and there's no time like the present.

oc

[oddlycalm]

The will not be able to ditch the unions totally but they will drastically renegoiate their contracts and agreements, it wont work with the current system. Companies like Visteon and Delphi were set up ititially to get around labor contracts with the original companies, but that failed and they could not get around it. (now Delphi is bankrupt). Not sure why you want to take strong positions on a subject you have next to no knowledge of. Just curious, did you blame the sinking of the Titanic on the passengers and crew?

Like Steve, I'm not here to defend the self-defeating one dimensional thinking at the UAW, particularly in eras past, but that's simply isn't the primary contributing factor. If you have preconceptions due to inflexible political positions, that's your cross to bear. Critical thinking has little to do with dogma and mythology but rather observation.

Visteon and Delphi were never set up to get around labor contracts, they were set up to provide insulation from manufacturing businesses GM and Ford had knowingly run into the ground and couldn't afford to modernize. They wanted to get the liabilities off they balance sheets before they became sucking chest wounds. Remember, GM management did this with full knowledge because a) they knew the plants were hopelessly outdated and b) they knew what the overhead burden and costs were, and c) controlled the price they pay for those components and even audited the books to make sure Delphi wasn't making any money on their GM contracts

Let me 'splain something to you about how GM operates it's manufacturing divisions. Most were refurbished post-WII and were only re-tooled as absolutely necessary since. How bad is it? Worse than bad. When they drug the machinery out of defunct Fridgedaire in the late 70's it was scrap. I evaluated a few machines some over-optimistic suckers had bought, but they were hopeless. Post-war equipment that had been run into the ground until the product suffered, then run some more until the customers were gone, then the brand name was sold, the workers fired, and the machine carcasses sold for scrap. If you want to explain how the union was resposible, feel free.

The last new machinery Delphi Chassis in Dayton (suspension struts) bought was in the 1970's. The first new machines Delphi Sandusky bought in 35yrs was in 2002 when they bought 8 of the 150 or so bearing race grinders that needed replacing 20yrs ago. You want me to run down the list from Fuel Systems to Steering I can do it plant by plant, machine by machine, but it's the same story at every plant. This is a company whose mode of business was to invest once, run it into the ground, then sell it off or close it.

While their competition was busy investing in world class plants, GM was running 1960-70's vintage scrap machine museums and growing their pension liability with no plan for how to support it, so they just spun it all off and tried to wash their hands of the mess. Not even a contingency plan for what to do when their now independent component supplier went belly up.

A lot of good hard working people are going to get hurt badly because of 40yrs of epic scale mismanagement. Not just the direct employees but the supplier base and entire communities.

oc

[FTG]

Labor costs don't break your back if your products are moving.

Toyota, Nissan and Honda all have minicars in the pipeline for this spring. $14,000 and 40mpg. The big 3 have the Aveo. :gomer:


So your solution is that GM needs to make a good $14,000 car, and if costs them $18,000 to make each one, don't worry about it, just sell lots of them. Is that about right?

[FTG]

I suppose it could be a coincidence that all the non union automakers are expanding and the unionized ones are shrinking. Just to be safe though, I think I'll avoid investing in the big 3.

[Hard Driver]

I don't know about everyone else, But I won't buy a GM car because the Vette is the only car I would be interested in. And even then, if I was spending the money, there are others I would buy first.

Show me a 4 Door, AWD, manual transission, powerful sedan with sports car handling made by an American company. Until then, I will stick with my Audi S4.

Whenever I get into a American rental car, I am stunned that anyone would buy such a plasticy boring car. I am sure that the rental companies get their fleets for cheap, but the driving experiences that the rental car drivers have, don't make people want to go out and buy the vehicles for themselves.

[chop456]

So your solution is that GM needs to make a good $14,000 car, and if costs them $18,000 to make each one, don't worry about it, just sell lots of them. Is that about right?

Isn't that what employee pricing was? (Except for the 'good car' part?)

No, that's not what I meant and you know it. Their products suck for the most part. There are niches that have existed for years and they fail to exploit them or even gauge demand. The Japanese watch fuel prices rise here and they're ready to introduce 3 fuel-efficient, foriegn-market models in the U.S. in a year while the big 3 stand around with their thumbs in their asses - again.

How many VW Golfs have been sold worldwide in the last 30 years, built by expensive German labor?

[Methanolandbrats]

Yup. In my driveway. 88 Golf, born of UAW workers and horribly deformed....saved by me and now with 234k miles on the clock. Looks like hell, but I'd drive it across the country. 84 GTI 154k, runs as strong as the day it was born. 97 Passat TDI, 101k, runs like new. Anybody got a Saturn or other GM junk with those miles? Did'nt think so...their market share is going to zero.

[nrc]

Show me a 4 Door, AWD, manual transission, powerful sedan with sports car handling made by an American company. Until then, I will stick with my Audi S4.

The Mazdaspeed 6 is about as close as you'll get.
http://www.mazdausa.com/MusaWeb/images/vehicles/gallery/MS6/pho_gallery_MS6_ext2.jpg

At least with Mazda I can take some solice in the fact that they're controlled by an American company. If we're lucky the Ford Fusion may eventually get similar goodies in an SVT model.

In the mean time, you don't even have to set the bar so high. How about just a small or mid-size sedan with great handling, a V6 and a standard? Ford used to have it in the Contour until they lapsed into a coma from huffing SUV fumes and forgot about their automobile operations.


Whenever I get into a American rental car, I am stunned that anyone would buy such a plasticy boring car. I am sure that the rental companies get their fleets for cheap, but the driving experiences that the rental car drivers have, don't make people want to go out and buy the vehicles for themselves.
Ironically I feel the same way about a lot of the lower priced German interiors. But in this case when I say "lower price" I mean "under $40,000". Of course the difference is that while some of them look bland and cheap they're usually solid.

[FTG]

When GM can make em cheap, they can sell a lot of them.

http://money.cnn.com/2005/11/23/news/international/gm_china.reut/index.htm

They're gaining market share in China and might soon take over the number 1 spot.

[FTG]

How many VW Golfs have been sold worldwide in the last 30 years, built by expensive German labor?

Found this via Google:

The Tuesday, 16 November 2005, Washington Post carried a WSJ article
about the withdrawal of the VW Phaeton from the US market.

But what really caught my attention was the statement that VW has lost
$960 million so far this year in the North American market.

[chop456]

Found this via Google:

The Tuesday, 16 November 2005, Washington Post carried a WSJ article
about the withdrawal of the VW Phaeton from the US market.

But what really caught my attention was the statement that VW has lost
$960 million so far this year in the North American market.


Who could have guessed that no one would want an $85,000 Volkswagen? Shocking! Unfortunately for GM, that sort of decision is the rule rather than the exception.

VW underwent a titanic turnaround in the last 10 years from top to bottom. They're now on the downswing, but that's not the point. With the proper management, it can be done. GM seems content simply churning out a better grade of garbage than they were 10 years ago.

Compare a '95 Jetta to an '05. Now compare a '95 Impala to an '05. The difference is even more stark with the Japanese.

I'm the last person to defend labor, but if you're making a product no one wants, it's largely irrelavent.

[FTG]

So you can make money producing cars expensively and selling them cheap if you have "proper management."

GM tried it, didn't work. VW tried it, didn't work. Can you give me any examples of "proper managment" that has made your business strategy work?

[chop456]

Uh, no.

And the failure of the Phaeton means precisely dick. It was an experiment and a huge gamble. They were wrong, and most Americans could have told you that beforehand. The W8 Passat was a failure during VW's resurgence, too. At their high point 4-5 years ago, their lineup consisted of 4 cars, 3 of which were built on the same platform. They've lost marketshare because their service network has a bad rep and they haven't introduced a new model until this year, and they have 3. I used the Golf as an example because it's a small, versatile, well-engineered and built, relatively cheap car that includes features people want, and they've sold 24 million of them in the last 30 years. The new Golf V is being built at the pace of around 500,000+ per year. GM's version of that car is where, exactly? Tied up by the unions? :gomer:

From what I understand, GM management is in charge of deciding what cars to build. If they continue to build ugly, impractical junk, they will fail, with labor costs being a part of the equation.

[eiregosod]

GM hiring 4,000





in India.

[Al Czervik]

Not to go too far OT, but if you think GM has trouble with retiree costs, wait about 15-20 years for the US Government's obligations to kick in. :eek:

[Methanolandbrats]

GM hiring 4,000





in India. Hallo, thees is Sanjeeb, I must imform you that Gee M Cradeet has naut raceived your paymint and you must reemitt.

[Andrew Longman]

Not to go too far OT, but if you think GM has trouble with retiree costs, wait about 15-20 years for the US Government's obligations to kick in. :eek:

Mostly right. Last I checked about $1800 dollars of the price of a GM car pays for health insurance for people who no longer even work for GM (i.e., retirees). GM, and all of the big three, has serious woes. Unfunded pension liabilities and runaway healthcare costs are perhaps their greatest financial threat.

But perhaps their greatest challenge is one of strategy.

True story. I spent much of last year doing project management consulting to one the the big three. I was working with an engineer who was responsible for a portion of an automatic transmission that was slotted for a new minivan. His project was to remove vibration from the current design. I was probing for measures of success for him, something along the lines of how much vibration he should be looking to remove. He was very hesitant. I asked what the benchmark in the industry was. He said it was Toyota but added, "You've got to understand. They're in business to make cars, We're in the business of making money" I kid you not (nor was he).

But in a nutshell that is their plight. They have answer to The Street, creditors and bondholders. The only portion of their business that actually makes money is their financial arm (e.g., GMAC) In order to keep the funds coming in they have to show assets. So they keep making cars they can't sell in order to keep liquid enough keep writing loans.

In other words, GM is really a bank that gives away cars instead of toasters to its customers. That's how they view their business strategically and given their cost structure, the age of their physical plant and labor force they don't really have an option.

And to correct a misperception. No car company is really American or Japanese or German or otherwise anymore. Nearly all manufacture close to their markets because it allows them to cut transport costs as well as allows them to adjust design and capacity to the local market. An Accord built in Marysville OH has as much or more domestic content as most "American" cars. Their suppliers are supplying other domestic manufactures as well and are no different from other suppliers except they are likely to be healthier and better treated than the ones the have the big three as their primary customers.

And the profits don't really go back to Japan. They go into the world financial market that knows no borders. Money follows money to the point of highest return. Sure, it might be a long while before an American (or non-Japanese) is running Honda and there is much about their culture that is certainly Japanese, but a Spaniard was (or is) running VW. A German is running DCX. And several Japanese companies have seen reason to put Americans in charge of their company. My own company put an Australian in charge of our Japan operation a few years ago.

[oddlycalm]

So you can make money producing cars expensively and selling them cheap if you have "proper management." ? Well managed companies don't have the highest costs in their industry sector by definition, and neither did GM prior to a decade of the inspired leadership of Roger Smith, it had the lowest costs. Quite a feat, eh?. There are massive economies to be had at General Motors North American auto operations, but senior management no longer has enough grasp of that business to understand where to look because they didn't come up in that business because they came up in the financial business, don't like cars and view them simply as "product." Not surprisingly their product decisions ignore the customers. Their hiring of Lutz was a belated admission of this, yet they still didn't give him the freedom to make changes right away. Arrogance and ignorance is a bad combination in a senior management team.

oc

[oddlycalm]

In other words, GM is really a bank that gives away cars instead of toasters to its customers. That's how they view their business strategically and given their cost structure, the age of their physical plant and labor force they don't really have an option. Bullseye. And the acountants in charge for most of the last 25yrs made the company into that. Most people don't realize GMAC is one of the top mortage lenders and heavily into business finance as well as consumer loans. Their management has done a great job running this business, they just don't grasp the manufacturing and auto business.

BTW, GM's greatest challenge of all may be attracting the talent it will need to get out of the corner it has painted itself into. They have suffered a massive talent drain over the last decade and given that they no longer offer a competitive benefit package, along with the negative press about their financial condition, the ability to attract top talent looks bleak. Since people that know how to make the product is the only real asset that matters, this is a dire situation.

oc

[chop456]

Most people don't realize GMAC is one of the top mortage lenders...

I realize it once a month. :D

[coolhand]

still doesn't change the fact I'd put the skill level of the lady buliding my cables and putting together my electronics boxes right now far above a student w/ 0 experience and she sure as hell has more skill and knowledge than I do at this stuff despite the fact I've got the B.S., but then again, she must be putting together transistor radios according to you :rolleyes:

Sorry ank but i wont take the bait of making this thread about me and my work experience. Its about the usefulness of unions and whether they are abd or not. Not me, try to not make it personal and stay on topic, I know it may be hard for you sometimes but i know you can do it.

The simple fact is that you are attributing more than is nessicary towards jobs that take relitivly little training to be used productivly by any competent person.

Lets take racing for example, its not unionized, but each team has a fab shop with people proficient in CNC machinery and fabrication. Those are skills learned that can be applied in many areas, O respect that type of work. But unions seem to strach those bountries to "technitions" who just flip on and off switches and turn machinery on and off. That is not skilled, and you get in trouble if you do it for them because it violates union rules. Same thing with hauling stuff around plants. It is not that skilled to learn to operate a fork-lift, but they get lumped into the Union and get the lable "skilled worker".



if you could hire just any random guy off the street put em through 1 day training and have them put out quality product time and time again, my roommate wouldn't have the hiring headaches he's had the past year, but I'm sure you know far more than him about what skill level is required, I mean, what does someone who's had his BSEE and been managing a high-tech, low output shop for a while know anyways right? ya, that's it... :)

Again, you are mistaken about unions in High-tech industries, they simply don't exist. Mostly because its a reletivly new industry, and they moment they form companies ship out those operations to China or Taiwan.

Your roomate has a problem that everyone has to deal with, taking people in and training them to do a good job. I am sure there is not a labor pool floating around with the skills he needs. There is a reason for it, the skills he needs are not somthing every man learns and makes a career out of. If there was an economy for it i am sure he would have no problems, but there isn't and labor unions keep acting like there is one. Unions in the end make the work force less flexable.

[nrc]

Again, you are mistaken about unions in High-tech industries, they simply don't exist. Mostly because its a reletivly new industry, and they moment they form companies ship out those operations to China or Taiwan.

So I guess I dreamed three weeks of strike duty building connectors for cell phone switches. What an odd dream.

It's just foolish to speak in such absolutes. It's certainly true that younger high-tech companies are less likely to be unionized than the old-guard, but flatly claiming that they don't exist is incredibly naive.

[coolhand]

So I guess I dreamed three weeks of strike duty building connectors for cell phone switches. What an odd dream.

It's just foolish to speak in such absolutes. It's certainly true that younger high-tech companies are less likely to be unionized than the old-guard, but flatly claiming that they don't exist is incredibly naive.

cell phone switches are hardly cutting edge anymore. 50 cents a pop, same area as Transitor radios.

[oddlycalm]

Sorry ank but i wont take the bait of making this thread about me and my work experience. Its about the usefulness of unions and whether they are abd or not. You might wanna read the topic header again...

oc

[coolhand]

You might wanna read the topic header again...

oc

You might want to read what everyone is arguing with me about.

[Ankf00]

It'd be one thing if you were even minimally informed on the subject at hand and could back up any of your claims with fact.

Get an eng job, then talk. At that point you might finally know what you're talking about.


edit: I think it was about somewhere between 5 to 8 quarters back, GM posted a pretty well in the black and it was all the rave in the headlines. Details though, details... GMAC was the sole reason, manufacturing killed the killer profits GMAC had reaped.

[coolhand]

It'd be one thing if you were even minimally informed on the subject at hand and could back up any of your claims with fact.

Get an eng job, then talk. At that point you might finally know what you're talking about.


minimally informed? me? yeah you sure showed me :rolleyes:

what facts did i need to cite in my arguments? I guess this was your bowing out. And its funny you thinking i have never had a job.

[FTG]

Well managed companies don't have the highest costs in their industry sector by definition, oc

Thanks for agreeing with me. Even after all this, GM will probably still have the highest costs in North America. It'll probably take a bankruptcy before they can compete.

[nrc]

cell phone switches are hardly cutting edge anymore. 50 cents a pop, same area as Transitor radios.

Do you think I'm talking about switches that go into cell phones? That's funny.

[Ziggy]

oddlycalm, your post at the top of page three was spot on perfect. Labor Unions do play a role in how screwed up this situation has gotten, but you cant lay the entire problem on the Unions. What once started out as a great way to provide and protect workers rights has veered off the moral highway into the self serving swamp. It's now about politics more than anything. It's a powerbase inside each plant.

Hourly labor costs are a mere fraction of the total price of the GM product. Long term benefits are another matter all together. It's really a mess. There seem to be many folks out there who are anti-Union. I think they read with glee the plight of the UAW worker. Ask yourself this, will America be a better place without a middle class? Why can't we make products in this country? Do you think it is fair to hold the American labor cost up against an emerging country like China?

I may be wrong, but I always thought being American was better. I have no desire to live in a mud hut and ride a bike to work.

Ziggy
American by the Grace of God, UAW member by choice.


PS - Ank, didn't you just get out of school?

[coolhand]

oddlycalm, your post at the top of page three was spot on perfect. Labor Unions do play a role in how screwed up this situation has gotten, but you cant lay the entire problem on the Unions. What once started out as a great way to provide and protect workers rights has veered off the moral highway into the self serving swamp. It's now about politics more than anything. It's a powerbase inside each plant.

Good points Ziggy. Back in the late 19th century when working conditions were unsafe (think Tirangle shirt waist fire), bad for workers health, and wages were being abused by employers Unions came and did the right thing. But now adays these workers rights are written into law. They are none other then another form of a beuracracy that serves none other then politics and taking other people's money to line other people's pockets.


Hourly labor costs are a mere fraction of the total price of the GM product. Long term benefits are another matter all together. It's really a mess. There seem to be many folks out there who are anti-Union. I think they read with glee the plight of the UAW worker. Ask yourself this, will America be a better place without a middle class? Why can't we make products in this country? Do you think it is fair to hold the American labor cost up against an emerging country like China?

I heard the yearly health benefits for GM were around 5 billion or something. Hard to add that to your costs each year and compete with Honda, Toyota, Nissan, and BMW who all have plants in the US. All those said companies are doing fine. Don't claim that car designs are the problem :rolleyes: its not that hard to figure out. The #1 selling vehicles for the past 20 years are #1 the Ford F-series and #2 the Chevy Silverado. Chevy and Ford sell as many cars worldwide as any other automaker. So their products not selling is not exactly the problem. So look at the revenue-costs = profit.


I may be wrong, but I always thought being American was better. I have no desire to live in a mud hut and ride a bike to work.
Ziggy
American by the Grace of God, UAW member by choice.


PS - Ank, didn't you just get out of school?

I prefer American made things too, but its hard to convince most businesses that will make them money to make things here. Thats what unions fail to do, work with their businesses to make more money, not always fight them.

[coolhand]

Do you think I'm talking about switches that go into cell phones? That's funny.

Ok so you are talking about Class 5 circuit based switches. Basically analogue tech these days versus and packet based router that cisco makes for web tehcnology.

These switches you are talking about are not phyiscally that complex, its basically made up of a powerful computer that connects directly each Cellphone user to a deticated line. simple stuff no adays, most of the cost goes towards the programming that is around 5000-6000 lines of code. I don't think most college educated programmers have to unionize. So you must be refering to the people who take the computers with the solfware loaded on, place it and connect it to the circuits, and put it in a nice weather safe box to go out to its location and connect to the network.

Hardly a powerful union that dominates the industry and can grinde it to a halt.

[Michaelhatesfans]

...Hard to add that to your costs each year and compete with Honda, Toyota, Nissan, and BMW who all have plants in the US. All those said companies are doing fine.
All of those companies also sell well designed cars that people are actually interested in. Apples and oranges.

[Ankf00]

PS - Ank, didn't you just get out of school?

indeed, I don't have loads of experience on the matter like Steve and Oddlycalm and have no problem admitting such. Then again I had been w/ my first job out of school during every summer through school, so it's not like I'm clueless, and it's certainly more to fall back on than "this Boeing guy on this tour said this."


I'm not the one damning all union folk because of what some dude on a plant tour told me about his union experiences. I didn't make the blanket statement that anything above the level of "transistor radio" in the EE field is union free and then continually backpedal from that position. And I didn't repeatedly insinuate that union workers are unskilled monkies that are plug-n-play compatible. There's some UAW peeps here I'd rather have as coworkers than degreed coworkers I currently have.

[Ankf00]

All of those companies also sell well designed cars that people are actually interested in. Apples and oranges.

what? you mean you don't wanna be seen pimping in the Aveo? that thing is a babe MAGNET dude, you have no clue what you're missing out on :D

[Michaelhatesfans]

what? you mean you don't wanna be seen pimping in the Aveo? that thing is a babe MAGNET dude, you have no clue what you're missing out on :D
That's right. The only thing keeping me from buying this hunk of crap are the damned unions. :laugh:
http://www.montanachevy.com/guide/brochures/2005/aveo/aveo_dimensions.jpg

[Michaelhatesfans]

what? you mean you don't wanna be seen pimping in the Aveo? that thing is a babe MAGNET dude, you have no clue what you're missing out on :D
Then again, there was that Pontiac a few years back that had an electrical outlet... I mean, it drove horribly, it was gutless, the design was horrid, it depreciated a few grand when you drove it off of the lot, and they laughed at you when you went to trade it in... but it had an electrical outlet!!! WHAT WAS I THINKING WHEN I DIDN'T SNATCH ONE OF THOSE BABIES UP??? Damn unions! They're just holding up the GM braintrust!

[nrc]

Ok so you are talking about Class 5 circuit based switches. Basically analogue tech these days versus and packet based router that cisco makes for web tehcnology.

Actually I'm talking about CDMA base stations that include either circuit or packet based switches (customer choice) - the most advanced 3G wireless stuff that you could get at the time. It used the latest PCB technology with very high chip density. All manufactured with union labor.

My advice would be to get out in the world and experience a bit more before you attempt to speak with such authority. It's fair to say that "hi tech" is less unionized than older heavy industries, but it's as much a geographic, cultural, and demographic thing as an industry thing.

[Andrew Longman]

If you wish to bash the UAW for the troubles of the big three it is more appropriate to blame it on agreements made long ago. That's when promises of lifetime health benefits and fat pensions were made. But blame too management for ignoring demographic, healthcare, and economic data that was there for all to see. They were mortgaging the company's future to get a short term return.

Today, those costs are hauling down the companies more than anything else. And sadly bankruptcy is probably the only out but it will leave many, many Americans much poorer and unhealthy in retirement than they planned. Whether that's of their own making is irrelevant since there is little they can do about it now.

But the UAW, like any union, is also a obstacle to change because of the restrictions work rules create and the generally adversarial relationship fostered with management.

Compare it to a place like Honda where there are no employee discounts on cars but each employee is encouraged and expected to put in their own time to participate in crossfunctional teams that improve the profit or quality of a car or safety in the workplace. In exchange they receive points that can be redeemed towards discounts on Honda products. Get enough point and you get a free car. But in the end they also get a car they actually want.

One final point on the big three. They have all gotten themselves in trouble by creating expectations in the market for steep discounts and rebates. Try as they might they can't seem to get out of that hole. Honda and Toyota on the other hand rarely if ever discount their cars and carefully manufacture only what they can sell. Look at days on hand inventory. The big three are often in triple digits while you will often have to wait for your new Honda to be made. That may cause Honda to lose a sale, but in the end keeps their costs undercontrol while keeping demand up.

[nrc]

Most old-guard American industry suffers from short-sightedness from top to bottom. At the top executives are driven by the next quarterly earnings report instead of by the long term good of the company.

At the bottom unions have been driven by short term benefit for their members rather than their long term well-being. Sadly the earnings focus helps to drive this because the unions have the short term earnings reports to point to as proof that they should be getting more.

[Sean O'Gorman]

Then again, there was that Pontiac a few years back that had an electrical outlet... I mean, it drove horribly, it was gutless, the design was horrid, it depreciated a few grand when you drove it off of the lot, and they laughed at you when you went to trade it in... but it had an electrical outlet!!! WHAT WAS I THINKING WHEN I DIDN'T SNATCH ONE OF THOSE BABIES UP??? Damn unions! They're just holding up the GM braintrust!

Ironically enough, the car you are talking about (The Vibe) is made by Toyota.

[racer2c]

Ironically enough, the car you are talking about (The Vibe) is made by Toyota.

I thought he meant the Aztec atrosity. It had a power outlet and a tent. :gomer:

[oddlycalm]

Good points Ziggy. Back in the late 19th century when working conditions were unsafe
- snip -
They are none other then another form of a beuracracy that serves none other then politics and taking other people's money to line other people's pockets. While certainly better than 100yrs ago, there are plenty of unsafe working conditions that remain today in general industry. Also, who do you suppose financed the push for industrial safety regulations in the first place to a large extent? That's right, labor unions.

And now we get to the real truth. Your virulent hatred of trade unions is simply a function of your political position. You don't have any experience dealing with unions first hand. In fact, you have demonstrated a fundamental misunderstanding of the people that work at these companies. Yet you are perfectly willing to hijack a thread that addresses an economic disaster that does, or will, effect many on this forum simply to flog that political position?

oc

[Ziggy]

effect many on this forum simply to flog that political position?

Hey, it's the American way, right? :cry:

[Michaelhatesfans]

effect many on this forum simply to flog that political position?

Hey, it's the American way, right? :cry:
Here's something we can all agree on, GM should be fined heavily for misuse of great names. Le Mans, Bonneville, Monte Carlo, GTO, Monza... it's just wrong! Wrong, I say!

[FTG]

Here's the chance for all you guys who think "the union did nothing wrong" to test your theory. The UAW gets a chance to own one of the big three. I bet the UAW is smarter than lots of people on the Internet. They'll figure out that their shares are worthless unless they accept wage cuts and get rid of the work rules, but they won't take the deal because if they do they'll need to do the same thing at Ford and GM and then there's no reason for the union to exist.

If you're right, the union will take the deal, make no changes, get rid of the idiot managers, replace them with genius managers and leave Toyota in the dust.



http://money.cnn.com/2007/04/05/news/companies/kerkorian_chrysler/index.htm?postversion=2007040515

[Jag_Warrior]

I think what the UAW has to face is that Chrysler Group is going to be sold... one way or another. And given who some of the bidders are, which potential owner leaves them with the best chance to protect the UAW membership from being raped & pillaged? I haven't heard, and the article points out, that Kerkorian is not well loved by the UAW. But anyone currently working in automotive would be foolish to choose Cerberus over Kerkorian. Other than Platinum Equity, I can't think of a worse bunch of bone picking vultures to work for. Well, actually I can, but it's not a private equity group.

Anyway, what Kerkorian is proposing is not to give the UAW membership, and other employees, actual daily control, just a voice in the company's macro affairs. Kerkorian will likely hold majority ownership and control, and the ESOP will get a seat(s) on the management board.

From the people I've spoken with, Kerkorian seems to be the favored player. Magna is next. Blackstone and Cerberus... the DCX managers I know are prepared to accept packages if either of them gets it. There are some other (minor) players as well. A mystery bidder may be out there, but I think those are the serious players. If the UAW wants to work for a company that continues to be run with a longer term vision, they'll throw their lot in with Kerkorian. If they want to watch the arms and legs be cut off the company, they'll stand by while Cerberus or Blackstone picks it up. Speculation I've heard suggests that the bone pickers would keep Jeep and the minivan operation. The rest of Chrysler Group would be prone to slice & dice.

I'm not a friend of the UAW by any means. Part of what I was charged with doing a few years ago was working on a team which closed down union facilities and moved the work to right-to-work states. But just as executive level management screwed the pooch in doing that, DCX management screwed the pooch last year. Not a single soul in the UAW pushed to work overtime to build full-size trucks and SUV's while gas was soaring and the vehicles weren't selling. DCX was renting open space from GM (of all companies), so they'd have a place to store all of the unsold vehicles... yet, they kept cranking them out... ON OVERTIME!!! All in the name of making capacity utilization look good... so some suited monkeys could get bigger bonuses. That was the short term screw up that helped produce last year's billion $+ loss. Longer term, I agree, the UAW has been short sighted much of the time. But the grandest goofs I've seen over the years have come from executive management. With or without a union, the decisions made by morons will cripple any company. Someone told me something about stupid people the other day which I really like. He said there are only two things you can do with stupid: you either kill it or accumulate it. Either you rid yourself of stupid people, or they will begin to multiply. With a union, it's harder to get rid of shop floor morons. So you have to be VERY careful in who you hire. But for managers, there is NO WAY to explain why stupid members of a management staff are allowed to keep their jobs.

I expect Chrysler Group to be turned around, depending on who buys it. I expect GM to settle into a level of market share that will enable them to stop closing factories within the next 4-5 years. Ford? I think even the family is losing faith. Dearborn has accumulated a whole bunch of stupid over the years.

[Sean O'Gorman]

If the UAW wants to work for a company that continues to be run with a longer term vision, they'll throw their lot in with Kerkorian.

Longer term vision? The man's short term vision is "don't die today!"

[Andrew Longman]

Not a single soul in the UAW pushed to work overtime to build full-size trucks and SUV's while gas was soaring and the vehicles weren't selling. DCX was renting open space from GM (of all companies), so they'd have a place to store all of the unsold vehicles... yet, they kept cranking them out... ON OVERTIME!!! All in the name of making capacity utilization look good... so some suited monkeys could get bigger bonuses. That was the short term screw up that helped produce last year's billion $+ loss.


Don't know if it was the situation last summer, but all of the Big 3 really only make money as financial institutions. Very often they pump up inventory just so they can show an asset on the books that lets them borrow money on more favorable terms and then turn it around and lend it to consumers.

This is why you'll see inventory levels for them in the 100s of days, but Honda for example usually sits in a few dozen days (usually the amount of time to transport cars to dealers). Actually, a large number of domestic Hondas are already sold before they are built, creating negative inventory, and an even better borrowing position.

Even this approach hasn't helped them much of late and they've had to offer plants as collateral for loans.

But you are also dead on right that incentives on all sorts of levels at the Big 3 causes manager to make many short-sighted and just plain wrong choices. I've seen this especially at DCX where quality issues were pushed off to successors just to keep cost savings bonuses in place.

[Jag_Warrior]

Longer term vision? The man's short term vision is "don't die today!"

:laugh:

Yes, but what I mean is there are generally two approaches to making money when it comes to private equity buy outs. Let's say a cow is up for sale. If Kerkorian's group bought the cow (more like a dog, since we're talking about automotive), I think he'd be more likely to keep the cow and try to make money by selling calves. The Cerberus group is led by Steve Feinberg, formerly of Rape & Pillage, Inc., aka Drexel Burnham Lambert. He would shoot said cow and sell it for the beef... guaranteeing an immediate return.

If you work in automotive, I think my plan is the best plan: GTF out ASAP. A brain drain has been going on for five or six years, and so our friend Stupid has begun accumulating and multiplying. But if I was at DCX and had to beat in a few more years (and wanted my pension and benefits to be somewhat safe), I'd choose Father Time Kerkorian over the Nickel Sniffers.

[Jag_Warrior]

Don't know if it was the situation last summer, but all of the Big 3 really only make money as financial institutions. Very often they pump up inventory just so they can show an asset on the books that lets them borrow money on more favorable terms and then turn it around and lend it to consumers.

This is why you'll see inventory levels for them in the 100s of days, but Honda for example usually sits in a few dozen days (usually the amount of time to transport cars to dealers). Actually, a large number of domestic Hondas are already sold before they are built, creating negative inventory, and an even better borrowing position.

Even this approach hasn't helped them much of late and they've had to offer plants as collateral for loans.

But you are also dead on right that incentives on all sorts of levels at the Big 3 causes manager to make many short-sighted and just plain wrong choices. I've seen this especially at DCX where quality issues were pushed off to successors just to keep cost savings bonuses in place.

Yes, it's a strange sort of Enron accounting that goes on in automotive. What happened last year with DCX is Tom LaSorda is part of the Stupid group that I described. At one of the recent DCX town hall meetings, a brash plant engineering supervisor asked if he was really up to the task of running the company. :eek: I hear that people started moving away from her, as if she'd cut a massive popcorn fart. There is a pool where over & under bets are being taken on when she'll "disappear". I picked three months or less... I refer to her as "DGW" whenever I see her (Dead Girl Walking). It was the exact right question, asked in the exact wrong place. But LaSorda is clearly in over his head. Zetsche would probably like to shoot him, but with all the cost savings they need, the Value Added boys can't justify that he's worth a bullet.

I'm not sure if the unsold inventory potentially helps the financing arms as much as it hurts the business in general. I honestly don't know how DCX has that arranged. But 51% of GMAC has been spun off from GM to... guess who? Cerberus! I can't recall what Ford Motor Credit's ownership structure looks like now. But it's all so fake. JIT/Just In Time, Six Sigma, Kaizen, Total Quality Management and all the other gee-whiz biz programs are just for show in most of the American mfg. facilities I've been in. If you bring in someone like me to address process failures, the first place I go is the front office. Bad workers can be "fixed" or fired - often they can be reformed. Very seldom can an incompetent manager be "fixed". But unless it's done by an outsider like me, most incompetent managers won't be fired. They are kept out of convenience. So what happens? You begin to accumulate Stupid. I think my buddy should write a book about this.

When I first got into this, automotive was fun. My former company was in CART and Trans Am. We developed some pieces for the race cars. We made parts for Jag and Ferrari. It was difficult and stressful much of the time, but it was generally satisfying and fun. Now, when the Big 3 have problems, they lean on suppliers to steal some of their money back. And... they drive them out of business or into bankruptcy.