View Full Version : GM layoffs
Desperate times call for desperate measures. They're trying to clear out some of their dead weight inventory before they have to start crushing Hummers.
Jag_Warrior
06-27-08, 07:29 PM
Speaking of Hummers that might get crushed... has anyone taken a gander at the new GMT745/Hummer pickup? It's supposed to be launched in a few weeks. The bed on this poorly built loser is just big enough to haul around a gas pump, from whatever station you can steal one from.
With rumors that Chrysler is drawing up bankruptcy paperwork and Ford & GM shopping for cyanide, in anticipation of hordes of SUV's coming off lease this year and next, the most popular song in the Detroit area should be End of the Line, by The Traveling Wilburys. :shakehead
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB121459502228711475.html
DETROIT -- J.D. Power & Associates sees the market for U.S. light vehicles contracting 15.4% in the month of June compared to a year ago, according to a report released Friday, as cash-conscious consumers put off major purchases.
The three domestic auto makers are expected to suffer the worst declines as buyers favor smaller cars with better gas mileage than the fuel drinking trucks and SUVs built by the Detroit companies.
According to J.D. Power's forecast, generally accepted as among the most accurate in the auto industry, General Motors Corp. will see a 26.2% decline, Ford Motor Co. a 31.4% drop and Chrysler LLC a 30.1% fall.
Toyota Motor Corp., which is closing in on GM as the biggest car seller in America, saw a slimmer decline of 6.6%, according to the Westlake Village, Calif., research firm. J.D. Power relied on data collected over the first 17 selling days of June for its projections. The winner in June is Honda Motor Co. which is projected to see a 9.3% jump in June sales, thanks to limited exposure to large vehicles.
J.D. Power sees GM retaining its spot as the biggest car seller with 19.2% of the market, with Toyota hot on its heels with 18.7%. GM is expected to receive a substantial boost in sales from a major incentive program announced this week with large cash rebates and favorable interest rates.
The car companies plan to announce June sales on Tuesday.
Sales may have picked up in the second half of June as the companies put more incentives on the table to lure reluctant buyers. Last week, J.D. Power forecast a 25% drop in sales based on the first 11 days of the month.
The Westlake Village, Calif., research firm said early recordings of cash rebates indicate a 30.1% increase compared to last year and higher support for subvented interest rates on loans for consumers looking to finance cars at lower rates.
The firm expects the closely watched seasonally adjusted annual rate of sales to fall to 12.5 million vehicle rate, well below the 16.3 million rate set in the same period last year. Traditionally, June is a hot month for auto sales, with dealers and manufacturers rolling out summer clearance initiatives in an effort to clear dealer lots for new models slated to hit showroom floors in the second half of the year.
Michaelhatesfans
06-28-08, 01:17 AM
Desperate times call for desperate measures. They're trying to clear out some of their dead weight inventory before they have to start crushing Hummers.
The other day a local radio host suggested that if Hummer dealers are looking for incentives, buyers could be offered free dunce caps with every purchase.
Michaelhatesfans
06-28-08, 01:29 AM
... however the US does rank #1 in the world in Patient Satisfaction, which I would say is the most important factor.
:laugh:
Um, ok, but that's not accounting for the millions of people who had nothing to contribute to that survey because they can't afford care in the first place.
Sorry, I know I'm on a political tightrope here, but that statistic just doesn't tell the whole story.
Anyway, back to the future of Detroit...
Jag_Warrior
06-29-08, 02:59 AM
Anyway, back to the future of Detroit...
Future?
Sean O'Gorman
06-29-08, 08:39 AM
http://img247.imageshack.us/img247/6443/robocop792844bmpzd9.jpg
SurfaceUnits
06-29-08, 10:57 AM
Also, I hate subsidizing the lazy.
do you know how much effort it takes these days to cross the US border to get free health care with those three magical words, no habla inglese?
:laugh:
Um, ok, but that's not accounting for the millions of people who had nothing to contribute to that survey because they can't afford care in the first place.
Sorry, I know I'm on a political tightrope here, but that statistic just doesn't tell the whole story.
Anyway, back to the future of Detroit...
wow welcome to February... :thumdown:
Michaelhatesfans
06-29-08, 02:23 PM
wow welcome to February... :thumdown:
Lighten up, Francis.
:cool:
oddlycalm
06-29-08, 06:05 PM
With rumors that Chrysler is drawing up bankruptcy paperwork and Ford & GM shopping for cyanide, in anticipation of hordes of SUV's coming off lease this year and next, the most popular song in the Detroit area should be End of the Line, by The Traveling Wilburys. :shakehead
Yep, and you can add to all that some serious cost increases. As every one of GM's 5yr commodity agreements expires they are going to be hit with 20-25% increases from their suppliers. GM purchased commodity amounts to a couple billion a year, so that 20% increase over the next 5yrs, assuming they make it that long, is going to inflict serious pain. As we discuss this Timken has told GM that there will be a 20% increase on their soon to expire bearing supply contract.
oc
Lighten up, Francis.
:cool:
wow welcome to 1981
Michaelhatesfans
06-30-08, 11:46 AM
wow welcome to 1981
Not to be pedantic, but I think that "Welcome to..." thing is officially outdated, as well.
:p
Andrew Longman
06-30-08, 12:12 PM
wow welcome to February... :thumdown:
Well since its out there, you might find this enlightening.
http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/features/2005/0501.longman.html
Yeah, he's my big bro. :gomer:
But it is absolutely true that the big health insurance buyers, such as GM, are getting clobbered and it isn't even getting them a healthier workforce than their international competitors. Big companies and industry organizations have been paying my brother to fly around the country almost constantly for two years to speak on this issue.
These costs, along with the higher supplier costs OC mentioned are going to really squeeze them. It will also squeeze Toyota and Honda but they don't have the union constraints, they have product people actually want to buy, Honda has spent the last three years already to take a billion dollars of cost out of Honda American Manufacturing, and T & H have much closer, more positive relationships with their suppliers.
Not to be pedantic, but I think that "Welcome to..." thing is officially outdated, as well.
:p
welcome to 2006. :p
But it is absolutely true that the big health insurance buyers, such as GM, are getting clobbered and it isn't even getting them a healthier workforce than their international competitors.
Good job of getting back on topic. :thumbup:
Michaelhatesfans
06-30-08, 01:13 PM
welcome to 2006. :p
:laugh:
Ok, let's call it good before it degenerates into "Where's the beef."
:laugh:
Ok, let's call it good before it degenerates into "Where's the beef."
We're not in Berlin? Bratislava? What?!
Jag_Warrior
06-30-08, 08:14 PM
Yep, and you can add to all that some serious cost increases. As every one of GM's 5yr commodity agreements expires they are going to be hit with 20-25% increases from their suppliers. GM purchased commodity amounts to a couple billion a year, so that 20% increase over the next 5yrs, assuming they make it that long, is going to inflict serious pain. As we discuss this Timken has told GM that there will be a 20% increase on their soon to expire bearing supply contract.
oc
There's going to be a lot of push & shove, as suppliers try to recover increased production costs, while the Big 3 will do their usual "we need more value added givebacks and rebates." Suppliers that are not somewhat tied into foreign transplants by now will likely suffer the most pain.
As sales have taken a nosedive, Ford, GM and Chrysler are currently on a mission to lighten the pockets of their suppliers - using methods that would remind one of scenes from The Godfather.
IMO, the future looks pretty bleak for the Big 3 and their primary suppliers. But I have a plan for old yours truly:
Me llamo Jag Warrior. Donde es un Taco Bell?
Jag_Warrior
06-30-08, 08:22 PM
...and T & H have much closer, more positive relationships with their suppliers.
DING, DING, DING, damut, DING, DING!!!
A survey from 3 or 4 years ago found that 60%+ of the Big 3 suppliers (specifically those dealing with GM) preferred not to do business with the Big 3, while a majority of the transplant suppliers were fairly content.
Sometimes ya reap what ya sew... seeds of discontent.
Andrew Longman
07-01-08, 07:57 AM
Sometimes ya reap what ya sew... seeds of discontent.
Yep.
I once worked a quality issue concerning interior door panels on Camaros. They were warping and falling off and GM blamed the supplier. We proved, and GM agreed, the problem was the glue GM was using. But they wanted a giveback anyway.:saywhat:
OTOH I provided quality and project management training to Honda suppliers, paid for by Honda, just because they wanted them to use the same methods and techniques.
And Honda often takes a minority position with their suppliers.
Sean Malone
07-01-08, 08:04 AM
Yep.
I once worked a quality issue concerning interior door panels on Camaros. They were warping and falling off and GM blamed the supplier. We proved, and GM agreed, the problem was the glue GM was using. But they wanted a giveback anyway.:saywhat:
OTOH I provided quality and project management training to Honda suppliers, paid for by Honda, just because they wanted them to use the same methods and techniques.
And Honda often takes a minority position with their suppliers.
And GM wonders why at the end of the Camaro's life the Mustang was outselling it 5 to 1.
There are times when I get twinges of American product patriotism and try to picture myself buying a GM product. It's a fleeting thought however once I snap out of it.
GM reminds me of the IRL.
Anyone have a spare $6 Billion?
oddlycalm
07-01-08, 07:58 PM
Calling Mr. Lopez...
Absolutely, but after he was discredited GM went right on using his methods, which was group insanity. If someone is discredited, shown to be a fraud and a thief, why would you be inclined to carry on programs he was responsible for starting? That's the kind of decision making that gets a company to where they are now.
Arrogance has it's price as does stupidity.
oc
The Peter Principle has been hard at work there for decades. Thousands of incompetent managers, led by even more incompetent managers, very removed from the stockholders, does not a successful business make. I suppose the best we can hope for is a Japanese takeover.
TI suppose the best we can hope for is a Japanese takeover.
I'm sure the Japanese are desperate to start enjoying the benefits of unionized labor. I'm sure they'll be putting in their bid any day now.:rofl:
If there's a bankruptcy, the unions and suppliers will be the ones owed money. They'll end up owning Ford, Chrysler and GM. Can't wait until they go on strike against themselves.
SurfaceUnits
07-22-08, 05:54 PM
Ford readies economy cars for U.S.
The automaker plans to bring six small autos to the United States, in addition to the previously announced Fiesta subcompact and European Focus.
Last Updated: July 22, 2008: 3:05 PM EDT
DETROIT (AP) -- Ford Motor Co. plans to bring six small vehicles to the U.S. market from overseas to meet growing demand for more fuel-efficient options.
A person briefed on the company's plans also says Ford will revamp some U.S. vehicle and engine plants to produce more small cars.
The person requested anonymity because the company isn't confirming details until Thursday, when it releases second-quarter earnings.
The changes will accelerate Ford's (F, Fortune 500) efforts to move away from its heavy dependence on truck sales.
Ford's U.S. sales dropped 14% in the first six months of this year as consumers sought smaller vehicles.
Ford had already said it will sell the Fiesta subcompact and the European Focus in the United States, starting in 2010. To top of page
General Motors Corp. and Ford Motor Co., the two biggest U.S. automakers, have about a 46 percent chance of default within five years, according to Edward Altman, a finance professor at New York University's Stern School of Business.
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=asXjYQuEUW4Q&refer=worldwide
:eek:
-Kevin
it's what happens when you operate as a giant bank instead of a car company. relying on bloated margins for now unpopular vehicles to subsidize selling sedans at a loss or razor thin margins which in turn subsidized the high margin vehicles' drain on CAFE...
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=asXjYQuEUW4Q&refer=worldwide
:eek:
-Kevin
don't tell me you're actually shocked by this news.
Sean Malone
07-23-08, 09:15 AM
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=asXjYQuEUW4Q&refer=worldwide
:eek:
-Kevin
If I had a dollar for every article that predicted GM or Ford defaulting...dead or even merging together within five years..., I'd have enough to buy a Honda.
And now Chrysler does away with leasing....
http://money.cnn.com/2008/07/25/autos/chrysler_leasing.ap/index.htm?postversion=2008072518
-Kevin
oddlycalm
07-26-08, 10:10 PM
And now Chrysler does away with leasing....
http://money.cnn.com/2008/07/25/autos/chrysler_leasing.ap/index.htm?postversion=2008072518
Not surprising. We all knew the end of lease returns of the SUV's and pickups were going to add a lot of fuel to the fire. The flip side is that those lease holders dodged a big bullet because they get to walk away from their pig iron pokers and not look back. I'd not want to be upside down in a Hummer or Expedition looking at another 48 months of payments and crappy mileage right now.
IMO leasing is the only thing that makes sense for a quickly depreciating asset like a car. I just want to pay for the amount I use it, not marry it or turn a big pile of money into a little one. Good luck selling those 0% 72 month financing plans boys...
oc
cameraman
07-26-08, 11:37 PM
IMO leasing is the only thing that makes sense for a quickly depreciating asset like a car.
Maybe but I bought an Outback in 1995 and paid for it in 24 months. I've had the title for eleven years now and I haven't had a car loan or lease payment for that decade+. Also I just paid the annual taxes & registration, it was $47. The only really expensive bit of maintenance in the last few years has been a new set of tires.
eiregosod
07-27-08, 07:24 AM
IMO leasing is the only thing that makes sense for a quickly depreciating asset like a car. I just want to pay for the amount I use it, not marry it or turn a big pile of money into a little one. Good luck selling those 0% 72 month financing plans boys...
oc
That's fine unless you go over the maximum allowed mileage in your leasing contract. if it's say 12k and you do 12,001 miles, then "sorry buddy you owe us more money blah blah...."
oddlycalm
07-27-08, 08:33 PM
Maybe but I bought an Outback in 1995 and paid for it in 24 months. I've had the title for eleven years now and I haven't had a car loan or lease payment for that decade+. Also I just paid the annual taxes & registration, it was $47. The only really expensive bit of maintenance in the last few years has been a new set of tires.
Sure, I get the low cost of ownership part, I just want a hedge in the event the car turns out to be a turd or the market turns against me. I end up buying the good ones off the end of the lease or before.
I've also walked away from a few with great relief just as SUV owners are doing now. Sometimes the car was really good but after a couple years the market price is so low that owning it would be stupid. My '89 Taurus SHO was that way. Great car but no demand for them.
My E46 M3 was subject to the S54 engine for main bearings and oil pump. :eek: On that one I didn't even wait for the lease to run it's course, I just found a buyer and bailed. There were still waiting lists to get one, and the bad news hadn't grown legs yet, so it was a comfortable landing. Mine wasn't afflicted but that doesn't matter if the news gets ugly and demand dries up. It felt nice knowing that, worst case, I could always walk away.
oc
IMO leasing is the only thing that makes sense for a quickly depreciating asset like a car. I just want to pay for the amount I use it, not marry it or turn a big pile of money into a little one. Good luck selling those 0% 72 month financing plans boys...
oc
Leasing basically has YOU pay for all the depreciation. The only thing that makes sense is to buy a 2-4 year old used car that has already depreciated significantly from retail price.
Andrew Longman
07-28-08, 08:50 AM
Leasing basically has YOU pay for all the depreciation. The only thing that makes sense is to buy a 2-4 year old used car that has already depreciated significantly from retail price.
That's what an accountant told me years ago. Also, buy it fully loaded, because those extra features barely depreciate at all. Paying say, $500 for a premium sound system will add nearly $500 to the worth of a car many years later.
We like new cars every few years so leasing works great for us. I hope the SUV leasing problems don't end up forcing changes on other leases.
That's what an accountant told me years ago. Also, buy it fully loaded, because those extra features barely depreciate at all. Paying say, $500 for a premium sound system will add nearly $500 to the worth of a car many years later.
That 2nd part is interesting as I've heard just the opposite. Having fewer features or only "essential" features (power windows, locks, seats, etc.) makes your car more marketable on the market for when you need to sell it. Having a DVD player in the backseat for example may detract some buyers and limit your market. Not having the DVD player in the back isnt as bad since it can be added at a later date. The thought about features not depreciating as rapidly did not cross my mind.
cameraman
08-01-08, 04:32 PM
Back to GM...
Ouch.
General Motors Corp. reported a quarterly loss of $15.5 billion, the third biggest in its 100- year history, because of plunging U.S. sales and the declining value of truck leases.
The deficit of $27.33 a share compares with a profit of $891 million, or $1.56, a year earlier. Excluding costs GM considers one-time, the per-share loss was 4 times bigger than analysts projected. Labor strikes contributed to a $9.9 billion drop in North American revenue, and sales worldwide tumbled 18 percent to $38.2 billion. The shares fell 7.6 percent.
Is Chrysler about to outsource production of a new midsize fleet to Nissan? That's the scuttlebutt out of Detroit this morning as the Wall Street Journal reports the flagging baby of the Big Three is about to enter "a partnership that would move the U.S. auto maker toward a radical new business model." (http://online.wsj.com/article/SB121807669397319543.html?mod=hps_us_whats_news)
SurfaceUnits
08-18-08, 04:13 PM
GM's corrupt political and business practices finally being recompensed.
Streetcars were once the most popular form of urban transportation in the country -- by World War I, most cities of more than 10,000 people had an electric railway system. But by the 1950s, this form of transportation had all but disappeared.
the tale of GM’s involvement in the demise of streetcars has some basis in fact. In the 1930s and ‘40s, GM, Firestone, and Standard Oil formed a company called National City Lines. National City Lines was a management company that bought up individual trolley lines in various cities and operated them for a profit. National City Lines profited from converting streetcars to buses, buses which were made by GM, which ran on Firestone tires, and used Standard Oil gas. In 1949, these corporations were convicted of conspiring to monopolize sales of supplies to the bus industry.
the 1949 conviction was reexamined in the 1970s, when some United States senators had grown concerned that the automobile industry wielded too much power. There were congressional hearings, and the transcripts of those hearings would be very, very detailed. I’ve tracked down a copy of those 1974 senate hearings. They include several sections that deal with the National City Lines case. Here’s a report written by a guy named Bradford Snell. He was the general counsel for the Senate Antitrust Subcommittee. Snell’s report went further than the 1949 court verdict. He said that the evidence uncovered showed that GM and others had set out to destroy the streetcar. In his testimony, Bradford Snell said that, “As long as people had adequate mass transportation, they wouldn’t buy the product that GM was fundamentally interested in selling, meaning automobiles. The only way to bring about a situation where it sold more cars was to eliminate rail alternatives and to supplant them with buses, which were unattractive.”
Read the story here http://www-tc.pbs.org/opb/historydetectives/pdf/410_electric_car.pdf
GM's corrupt political and business practices finally being recompensed.
Tucker anyone? :irked:
-Kevin
cameraman
08-18-08, 04:32 PM
Yeah I live in an original suburban house. In the late 1880's they built a line than ran about 15 blocks out into the country. My house is at the end of the line. A hundred years later the end of the line is now the really close in, short commute neighborhood. The fine folks at National City bought up the huge trolley system in Salt Lake and promptly put it out of business. Now we are spending hundreds of millions to replace a system we threw away 60 years ago.
oddlycalm
08-18-08, 05:07 PM
GM's corrupt political and business practices finally being recompensed.
Read the story here http://www-tc.pbs.org/opb/historydetectives/pdf/410_electric_car.pdf
This wasn't some deep dark conspiracy. In our household it was dinner conversation on several occasions. My grandfather, who was chief body engineer at Fischer Body during the period this was going on, talked about it and felt it had been "smart business" for GM to clear that way for cars and none of the governments business. He also carped endlessly about the anti-trust ninnies ruling that GM had to dump all their ownership in Dow Chemical and other governmental conspiracies...:laugh:
When I was a kid my mother would take us on the Detroit - Pontiac streetcar line that ran right down the median of Woodward Avenue a few blocks from out house all the way to the river front. Our most frequent destinations were the Art Institute and the Zoo, both big favorites of mine. :thumbup:
Ironically, we have been putting street cars and light rail back in around here and it's, once again, very popular. The light rail stops right at the front gate of the track, so you can take a 15 minute ride from downtown and not have to park as Anteater & Mr. Anteater did for the last couple races held at PIR. Now all we need is another race....:irked:
oc
Methanolandbrats
08-18-08, 05:29 PM
A new round of incentives today..........I'm gonna wait till I can get a Malibu for $5999.99. :gomer:
Andrew Longman
08-18-08, 05:58 PM
A new round of incentives today..........I'm gonna wait till I can get a Malibu for $5999.99. :gomer:
But then you'd have a Malibu
There are cheaper flower pots. ;)
This wasn't some deep dark conspiracy. In our household it was dinner conversation on several occasions. My grandfather, who was chief body engineer at Fischer Body during the period this was going on, talked about it and felt it had been "smart business" for GM to clear that way for cars and none of the governments business. He also carped endlessly about the anti-trust ninnies ruling that GM had to dump all their ownership in Dow Chemical and other governmental conspiracies...:laugh:
When I was a kid my mother would take us on the Detroit - Pontiac streetcar line that ran right down the median of Woodward Avenue a few blocks from out house all the way to the river front. Our most frequent destinations were the Art Institute and the Zoo, both big favorites of mine. :thumbup:
Ironically, we have been putting street cars and light rail back in around here and it's, once again, very popular. The light rail stops right at the front gate of the track, so you can take a 15 minute ride from downtown and not have to park as Anteater & Mr. Anteater did for the last couple races held at PIR. Now all we need is another race....:irked:
oc
I thought that conspiracy business was debunked...
Methanolandbrats
08-18-08, 06:28 PM
But then you'd have a Malibu
There are cheaper flower pots. ;) I would'nt drive it, give it to my kids.
cameraman
08-18-08, 06:39 PM
Define debunked. National City bought up a hundred or so commuter lines and in the end all were shut down. Were they shut down for no other reason than GM was evil: no of course not. Did GM fight tooth & nail to keep the street car concept alive in the face of changing times, oh hell no. it wasn't so much a conspiracy as it was a business model and GM taking advantage of changing times.
In the end the US lost a huge number of mass transit lines much to the detriment of its large cities.
SurfaceUnits
08-18-08, 10:16 PM
and the politicians and city managers that ended up with a free Cadillac or fGM dealership was just fGM taking advantage of sorry assed humans
If the point is that we're not a nation of mass transit riders because GM conspired to destroy mass transit, I don't buy it. Americans love convenience. That combined with cheap fuel and affordable vehicles made mass transit something that most Americans never consider.
The forces that have driven suburban sprawl have rendered mass transit a less than ideal solution for most cities. Even those who use mass transit have to drive their SUVs to get to the bus stop.
cameraman
08-19-08, 12:37 AM
If the point is that we're not a nation of mass transit riders because GM conspired to destroy mass transit, I don't buy it. Americans love convenience. That combined with cheap fuel and affordable vehicles made mass transit something that most Americans never consider.
The forces that have driven suburban sprawl have rendered mass transit a less than ideal solution for most cities. Even those who use mass transit have to drive their SUVs to get to the bus stop.
The mass transit system in Salt Lake predated the invention of the car by a good 30 years. It was hugely popular and in the 1880s there were ten different streetcar lines in open competition some even using the same tracks. Eventually some sanity prevailed and they consolidated into a single company by WWI. The system hit its peak in 1918 at 146 miles of track. Salt Lake was economically depressed all through the twenties and the depression hit Salt Lake harder than most cities in the nation with the median family income dropping below $300 a year at one point. People used the streetcars for everything, cars were out of reach for the majority of people. The run up to WWII got the mining based Salt Lake economy rolling again and car sales took off and home construction started to sprawl out from the city center and away from the transit system. After WWII everybody wanted a car and the streetcar usage plummeted.
GM and the other cars companies went to war against the interurbans and the streetcars starting in the 1920s and they used just about every trick & tool in the book to get the job done. Some of their actions were sketchy and by today's legal standards they wouldn't have flown but they were more or less legal at the time. Their goal was to build a market and sell cars and they more than met their goals.
Cheap and abundant gasoline is what really killed the streetcar, GM & friends just made absolutely sure that it happen quickly.
Im sure Salt Lake was teaming with cutting edge trends in 1918 :tony:
Colonial Mustard did it in the kitchen with a fireplace tong :shakehead:cry::gomer:
Andrew Longman
08-19-08, 05:02 PM
I think GM, Firestone and Standard Oil would have been perfectly happy selling buses, tires and diesel fuel to mass transit systems.
The problem that we suffered from is those buses had/have to travel the same highways and streets as all those cars GM was selling. From the beginning it won't work as well and eventually it won't work nearly at all.
Towns like LA will spend billions putting lite rail back
Towns like LA will spend billions putting lite rail back
And the only reason anyone will use it is if the roads are too congested, too inconvenient, or too expensive to use. Mass transit died because cars became a better solution for most people. GM didn't kill mass transit, Henry Ford did.
cameraman
08-19-08, 05:37 PM
GM didn't kill mass transit, Henry Ford did.
No cheap gas did and >$5 a gallon gas is going to bring transit back.
oddlycalm
08-19-08, 06:41 PM
And the only reason anyone will use it is if the roads are too congested, too inconvenient, or too expensive to use. Mass transit died because cars became a better solution for most people.
I thought the same thing when light rail plans were made here back in the 1980's, and was convinced it was going to be a massive waste of money, but it was popular from day one and that hasn't changed. That was well before our current congestion and fuel prices. Downtown parking was the big issue initially. It also turns out a lot of people like to relax and read on the way to work.
In addition to the downtown streetcar we now have an East rail line that extends out 15 miles, a West line that goes a similar distance, a North line (the one that goes to the track) and and an airport line. We also have a suburb to suburb heavy rail coming on line soon. The North line will cross the Columbia into Washington in a few years.
What we have seen with it is development of the Pearl district (the old BN rail yard) around the street car line and communities and shopping springing up around the rail lines. One stop away from the airport is a massive IKEA store as well as a dozen others as well as light industry. Near the various Intel campuses on the West side of town there is a big commercial/residential development around Orenco Station.
Just from going to the races I can tell you why people like it. No parking, no traffic and no long walks in from a lot. You can also stop and have a few on the way home with no DUI worries.
oc
Sean Malone
08-19-08, 07:10 PM
Americans love of their automobiles was a result of post war adventurism and wealth that evolved throughout the '50's and on. Kerouac, the open road, new highway's and beach vacations further instilled the passion of the automobile and Americans. Cars provide an creative outlet for some and a home away from home for others.
Mass transit is already seeing a sharp increase in the last year in the metro areas but it will take a drastic event to pry the cars from the suburbanites.
My wife and I commuted by train into DC for 3 years. 3 horrible years. :)
I thought the same thing when light rail plans were made here back in the 1980's, and was convinced it was going to be a massive waste of money, but it was popular from day one and that hasn't changed. That was well before our current congestion and fuel prices. Downtown parking was the big issue initially. It also turns out a lot of people like to relax and read on the way to work.
In addition to the downtown streetcar we now have an East rail line that extends out 15 miles, a West line that goes a similar distance, a North line (the one that goes to the track) and and an airport line. We also have a suburb to suburb heavy rail coming on line soon. The North line will cross the Columbia into Washington in a few years.
What we have seen with it is development of the Pearl district (the old BN rail yard) around the street car line and communities and shopping springing up around the rail lines. One stop away from the airport is a massive IKEA store as well as a dozen others as well as light industry. Near the various Intel campuses on the West side of town there is a big commercial/residential development around Orenco Station.
Just from going to the races I can tell you why people like it. No parking, no traffic and no long walks in from a lot. You can also stop and have a few on the way home with no DUI worries.
oc
transit-oriented development. even in the ritziest old-money neighborhood of dallas
eiregosod
08-20-08, 09:58 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JYZNSyP9v9M
JLMannin
08-20-08, 11:34 AM
Mass transit is already seeing a sharp increase in the last year in the metro areas but it will take a drastic event to pry the cars from the suburbanites.
All it takes is for yuppies and D.I.N.C's to think mass transit is hip, trendy, and cool, and mass transit will be just as popular as suburban assualt vehicles are today.
Sean Malone
08-20-08, 12:37 PM
All it takes is for yuppies and D.I.N.C's to think mass transit is hip, trendy, and cool, and mass transit will be just as popular as suburban assualt vehicles are today.
Only if they serve Starbucks and have WiFi. :)
Michaelhatesfans
08-20-08, 12:37 PM
The North line will cross the Columbia into Washington in a few years...
Not if people like my dad have a say in it. He's one of those people in Vancouver who is dead set against it, because he believes that it would only serve as some sort of rapid deployment system for criminals.:rolleyes:
My wife and I just nod politely, then as we're driving home we laugh out loud at the idea of some shifty looking guy riding the train at 2am with a big screen in his lap hoping that no one will notice him...:laugh:
Not if people like my dad have a say in it. He's one of those people in Vancouver who is dead set against it, because he believes that it would only serve as some sort of rapid deployment system for criminals.:rolleyes:
my fav is Sugarland suburb of Houston, "then all the blacks will come to our mall!"
no one gaf about your bloody mall, it's houston, it's not that special.
cameraman
08-20-08, 12:54 PM
Not if people like my dad have a say in it. He's one of those people in Vancouver who is dead set against it, because he believes that it would only serve as some sort of rapid deployment system for criminals.:rolleyes:
We had the exact same garbage here. Folks worrying that all those evil west side people would take the train to wonderful east side neighborhood:shakehead Now the exact same toads are complaining about the lack of a stop along the line for their neighborhood.
TKGAngel
08-20-08, 01:17 PM
my fav is Sugarland suburb of Houston, "then all the blacks will come to our mall!"
no one gaf about your bloody mall, it's houston, it's not that special.
Our biggest mall wouldn't let public transportation buses onto its property (all of said buses came from "troubled neighborhoods", to put it mildly). It wasn't until a young woman was killed crossing a six-lane road to get from the bus stop to her job at the mall that buses were finally allowed on the mall's property.
oddlycalm
08-20-08, 04:52 PM
FWIW, Charlie Rose is doing an automotive series that started with the chief stylists from Mazda, Hyundai & GM last Friday, GM CEO Rick Wagoner on Monday, Bob Lutz on Tuesday, etc. If you want to seen the ones that already aired they should be at Charlie channel (http://www.youtube.com/user/CharlieRose)
oc
oddlycalm
08-20-08, 05:17 PM
Not if people like my dad have a say in it. He's one of those people in Vancouver who is dead set against it, because he believes that it would only serve as some sort of rapid deployment system for criminals.:rolleyes:
My wife and I just nod politely, then as we're driving home we laugh out loud at the idea of some shifty looking guy riding the train at 2am with a big screen in his lap hoping that no one will notice him...:laugh:
Funny stuff (like Vancouver isn't fully stocked with tweakers and low lifes) :laugh:. Conversations with our elderly parents can be interesting.
Fifteen years ago my dad led the charge to get sewers for his town of Sedona, AZ, which made a lot of practical sense. No percolation, all bed rock, growing population, etc., etc. Now that he's 15yrs older and the sewers are finally coming to his neighborhood he's carping about the horrible inconvenience of having he road torn up for a day...:D
Most people simply don't like change, even if they understand that the end result will be positive, and they make up all manner of reasons to avoid it. That's exactly why GM has had such so much trouble changing course over the last 35yrs, even as their market share plunged from north of 50% down to less than 20%.
oc
eiregosod
08-23-08, 06:07 PM
Ouch, GM etc can tap the Fed for an easy no quibble low interest loan with 30 day money back guarentee.
I see they've doubled their request for a Fed bailout, *cough* loan to $50bn.
remember, you can in a Nissan, you can't in a Trabant.
eiregosod
09-13-08, 03:47 PM
bye bye GMAC
SurfaceUnits
09-17-08, 12:45 PM
The deepening auto recession
* Potential new car and truck buyers are being kept out of the market because falling resale values mean they don't have any equity in their current vehicles. Dealers call these customers "upside down." The upside down effect is likely to become most apparent later this fall when Ford (F, Fortune 500) and Chrysler launch the latest versions of their most profitable vehicles - the Ford F-150 and Dodge Ram full-size pickup trucks - because truck trade-in values have been especially hard hit.
* At the same time, leasing is disappearing as a sales stimulant because 1) manufacturers like Chrysler can no longer afford to finance it, and 2) falling resale values - especially on larger vehicles - make it unattractively expensive. Lots of new car buyers are dependent on an affordable monthly payment and leases can't provide that any longer. Home equity loans, once a popular way to pick up the slack, aren't helping either. According to Oregon-based CNW Marketing Research, the reduction in the number of purchases made with home equity loans has been especially steep in California and Florida, where a huge number of new cars and trucks are sold.
* Analysts at CSM Worldwide in Detroit are now saying that all these factors, combined with sagging consumer confidence, could delay the industry's recovery for years. One scenario has sales remaining below their 2007 sales level of 16.1 million until as late as 2013. Even when the market does start to recover, the hottest segments - like compact-sized cars and crossover vehicles - will be far less profitable than shrinking segments like pickups and SUVs.
Even the prospect of Congress appropriating $25 billion in low-cost loans to accelerate the changeover to more fuel-efficient vehicles isn't enough to cut the gloom. As Efraim Levy, an analyst at Standard & Poor's writes: "In our view, the loans would be net near-term positives to car and parts makers, but would increase borrowing costs and obligations in the future."
It is hard to imagine a bleaker picture. As another longtime Detroit executive said last week: "Six months ago, car buyers were upside down on their car loans. Today, they are upside down on their lives." To top of page
Sean Malone
09-17-08, 01:49 PM
Chrysler will probably cease to exist, at least as a stand alone entity, within a few years.
I read an article a few years ago in which industry analysts predicted a GM/Ford merger within 10 years. That prediction was made prior to $4 a gallon gas and 'recession like' economy.
GM breaks through $5, down 31%, put on death watch by S&P. Value is now what it was in 1950. :eek: :(
http://money.cnn.com/2008/10/09/news/companies/taylor_death_watch.fortune/index.htm?postversion=2008100917
-Kevin
Don Quixote
10-09-08, 06:35 PM
GM breaks through $5, down 31%, put on death watch by S&P. Value is now what it was in 1950. :eek: :(
http://money.cnn.com/2008/10/09/news/companies/taylor_death_watch.fortune/index.htm?postversion=2008100917
-Kevin Time to give the chief executives some big bonuses.
Maybe GM could start marketing their cars as Collectors Editions. Available for a limited time only! ;)
chop456
10-10-08, 01:49 AM
Mkt Cap: 2.69B
They'd better hope Toyota, Hyundai or similar don't start digging through couch cushions for the pocket change it'd now take to kill them.
Then again, they could just wait a couple years. :shakehead
cameraman
10-10-08, 01:54 AM
No one in their right mind would buy the obligations GM has to its retirees.
They will buy any useful bits at the chapter 7 fire sale.
chop456
10-10-08, 02:00 AM
Good point, but didn't Cerberus hand over their employee "problem" to the unions? Maybe I'm misremembering. :gomer:
Stat of the day from CNBC: combined, the market cap of GM and Ford == 1/10th that of Toyota. Jeebus that's sad. :(
-Kevin
oddlycalm
10-10-08, 03:41 PM
Good point, but didn't Cerberus hand over their employee "problem" to the unions? Maybe I'm misremembering. :gomer:
For the blue collar workers, but they still have white collar workers pension liabilities.
GM's pension liabilities are truly massive. They didn't ever pay big salaries but their pensions have annual COLA and the health care plan is first rate. My dad took an early out and retired a age 55. That was 33yrs ago, 3yrs longer than what he worked. My 93yr old aunt is still collecting my uncles pension that has been paying out since 1979. I expect both of them to lose their pensions when GM finally goes chapter 7.
oc
Sean Malone
10-11-08, 08:39 AM
Headlines this AM give a GM/Chrysler merger 50/50 chance.
extramundane
10-11-08, 09:55 AM
Headlines this AM give a GM/Chrysler merger 50/50 chance.
Insert "two wrongs don't make a right" jokes here.
cameraman
10-11-08, 11:13 AM
Headlines this AM give a GM/Chrysler merger 50/50 chance.
Cerberus isn't merging with anybody. They might buy GM...
Methanolandbrats
10-11-08, 03:16 PM
Headlines this AM give a GM/Chrysler merger 50/50 chance.
:laugh: There first joint venture will be a mini van which sets the new standard for ugliness (GM influence), the transmission fails at 80k (Chrysler) and the motor blows at 90k (GM). People will line up to buy them :laugh:
TKGAngel
10-11-08, 04:02 PM
Cerberus isn't merging with anybody. They might buy GM...
I thought it was a trade more than a merger:
Cerebrus receives the shares of GMAC that GM still owns, while GM receives Chrysler.
nissan gtp
10-11-08, 04:41 PM
My dad took an early out and retired a age 55. That was 33yrs ago, 3yrs longer than what he worked.
cool, that's what I'm planning to do ('cept my full retirement age is 55) :cool:
Another 2500 jobs gone, Janesville, WI plant shutdown:
The automaker also said Monday that it will close its metal stamping plant near Grand Rapids, Mich., by the end of 2009, costing about 1,340 hourly jobs. Workers at the 2-million-square-foot factory in the suburb of Wyoming, Mich. were notified Monday afternoon.
GM spokesman Chris Lee said the Janesville plant's 1,200 workers represented by the United Auto Workers were told the factory would be shuttered Dec. 23, earlier than GM had expected.
http://money.cnn.com/2008/10/13/news/companies/GM_closure.ap/index.htm?postversion=2008101316
On Cerebus:
On Friday night, word leaked that GM had talks with Chrysler LLC owner Cerberus Capital Management LP about GM merging with or acquiring Chrysler. The talks have been shelved during the country's financial crisis.
Sorry, but I fail to see the humor in any of this. :shakehead
-Kevin
Merry Christmas. :rolleyes:
Methanolandbrats
10-13-08, 10:00 PM
Sorry, but I fail to see the humor in any of this. :shakehead
-Kevin[/QUOTE]
You are correct. People working hard and losing their jobs because the company heads are idiots is not funny. The humor comes from the absurdity of the situation. GM execs literally had decades to figure this out, but they could'nt find their asses with both hands :(
Michaelhatesfans
10-13-08, 11:27 PM
:laugh: There first joint venture will be a mini van which sets the new standard for ugliness (GM influence), the transmission fails at 80k (Chrysler) and the motor blows at 90k (GM). People will line up to buy them :laugh:
And it will convert into a pick-up. They will base the advertising campaign around the fact that it has a two prong plug adapter.
SurfaceUnits
10-15-08, 12:40 PM
GM: Better off bankrupt
The automaker is in trouble, but even Chapter 11 would be better than hooking up with Chrysler.
NEW YORK (Fortune) -- GM certainly is keeping a close eye on its cash these days.
One supplier reports he is now getting paid 60 days after he presents an invoice - not the 30 days he was used to. Worse, the clock doesn't start ticking until after the bills get approved in Detroit - and then sent to Arizona for processing.
Next thing you know, GM will be inflating its float by cutting supplier checks on banks in Fiji that will take weeks to clear.
http://money.cnn.com/2008/10/14/news/companies/gmwoes_taylor.fortune/index.htm?postversion=2008101509
You are correct. People working hard and losing their jobs because the company heads are idiots is not funny. The humor comes from the absurdity of the situation. GM execs literally had decades to figure this out, but they could'nt find their asses with both hands :(
and the unions.
oddlycalm
10-15-08, 03:49 PM
GM: Better off bankrupt
The automaker is in trouble, but even Chapter 11 would be better than hooking up with Chrysler.
NEW YORK (Fortune) -- GM certainly is keeping a close eye on its cash these days.
One supplier reports he is now getting paid 60 days after he presents an invoice - not the 30 days he was used to. Worse, the clock doesn't start ticking until after the bills get approved in Detroit - and then sent to Arizona for processing.
Next thing you know, GM will be inflating its float by cutting supplier checks on banks in Fiji that will take weeks to clear.
This is a non-story. GM terms have been 2nd day of 2nd month since sometime back in 1999 when they chaned from net 30 day prox. Most regular suppliers are on a no-invoice basis so as soon as the shipment is received in the clock is ticking. Where the checks are cut from has no bearing on GM payments in our experience and in 20yrs we have not had a single GM payment that fell outside their terms. I'd take that any day.
I can't say the same for GE which mails all payments from some bojack town in Florida and does take advantage of the float.
The real pay problems we see are the US and Euro companies in Mexico. They are required to have Mexican companies to partner with. The Mexican companies age the receivables for 75-90 days across the board whether it's Ford, Honeywell, VW, Linamar, GKN, Tremec, etc., etc. :thumdown:
oc
Andrew Longman
10-15-08, 07:21 PM
I don't recall my receivables dealings with GM in the late 80s but working with Chrysler in the 90s I experienced first hand the arm twisting and abusive tactics Chrysler is famous for. If one comma was out of place on the invoice the clock reset. And approval of a PO was never really sure to mean actual approval.
Needless to say, treatment of suppliers was a major reason for Detroit's downturn. Post-Lopez, the gloves were off, and the supplier's focus was on how to screw the customer as hard as he was screwing you.
The level of professionalism in Detroit is pathetic and has been for some time. It should be no surprise to anyone that it shows in their products.
oddlycalm
10-16-08, 08:22 PM
I don't recall my receivables dealings with GM in the late 80s but working with Chrysler in the 90s I experienced first hand the arm twisting and abusive tactics Chrysler is famous for. If one comma was out of place on the invoice the clock reset. And approval of a PO was never really sure to mean actual approval.
Yup, that's the drill at Chrysler. It's why we've cultivated relationships with powerful people in purchasing management. One call to the right person can do wonders. The reverse is true as well; when they need something desperately we make sure it's there.
As much of a PITA as GM purchasing is with the BS target pricing getting paid has been a non-issue. I initiated and managed our blanket contract with GM since in 1993 and I can't remember a single payment that fell outside their terms and those terms have only changed once since god was in short pants. That's why thought the article was a red herring. The net 30 prox terms went away nearly a decade ago, not in response to the current situation.
I'm all for beating them up for what they do wrong but why kick them for something they do pretty well at...?
oc
Andrew Longman
10-18-08, 08:59 AM
GM isn't exactly pure though. I think I've shared here the time I helped a supplier of interior door panels for Camaros show GM that the reason they were warping and falling off is because GM used the wrong glue. GM completely agreed with the analysis... and told the supplier they would have pay to correct it anyway if they wanted the continued business. :saywhat:
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