View Full Version : WTF Happened to Tracy???
CARTNUT
07-10-05, 04:17 PM
Did he just get too frustrated and give up or was there a real mechanical problem?
He should have just taken the penalty, gone into the pits to fix the wing, back in for a stop & go, and prolly still would have finished ahead of Bore-day.
Not a good show in front of his home crowd. :shakehead
racer2c
07-10-05, 04:19 PM
The yellow closed the pits and he ran out of gas. the car was reading more gas than it actually had or they would have ignored the closed pit.
CARTNUT
07-10-05, 04:21 PM
The yellow closed the pits and he ran out of gas. the car was reading more gas than it actually had or they would have ignored the closed pit.
How does that end your day?
FCYTravis
07-10-05, 04:23 PM
Neil Micklewright said their calculations were wrong.
RaceGrrl
07-10-05, 04:24 PM
I didn't understand why PT didn't take the tow and get back in the race. He'd certainly have been able to score a few points if he could have avoided the wankers. Watching him sitting at the pit-out and hearing him on the radio, it just sounded like he was heartbroken and I felt really bad for him. (for once. )
I do like Bourdais, but that incident was ALL his fault. PT braked to avoid running into him, and was still chopped.
Insomniac
07-10-05, 04:25 PM
How does that end your day?
I guess when you run out of fuel, that's it. You don't get a tow back to the pits to refuel.
It was a shame. They weren't going to change the wing and you probably would've had a caution that would bunch them up taking away his ~10s lead. Would've been interesting. And he deserved one up on Bourdais after Monterrey.
spinner26
07-10-05, 04:29 PM
I didn't understand why PT didn't take the tow and get back in the race. He'd certainly have been able to score a few points if he could have avoided the wankers. Watching him sitting at the pit-out and hearing him on the radio, it just sounded like he was heartbroken and I felt really bad for him. (for once. )
I do like Bourdais, but that incident was ALL his fault. PT braked to avoid running into him, and was still chopped.
Too much Molson??????
Poetic justice for PT. I like the guy and I like the way he races, but SB had CLEARLY moved forward of PT at pit out and should have given way for the yellow line. SB kept his wheels below the yellow and therefore it was considered a racing incident.
Nothing like Good Karma.
I guess when you run out of fuel, that's it. You don't get a tow back to the pits to refuel.
I wondered about that. Anyone know what the rule is? (I know Goggles Pizano got disqualified for asissting his car after it ran out of fuel, but the rules may have changed since then.)
Anteater
07-10-05, 05:26 PM
I'm still trying to figure out why Tracy was allowed to race lap after lap with a broken wing; does anyone know why it was suddenly OK to do that? Anyway, tough luck for PT in front of his hometown crowd! :(
I'm still trying to figure out why Tracy was allowed to race lap after lap with a broken wing; does anyone know why it was suddenly OK to do that? Anyway, tough luck for PT in front of his hometown crowd! :(
It looked entirely stable with nothing loose or coming off. Not the first time a car with a broken front wing has been allowed to continue.
Insomniac
07-10-05, 05:41 PM
Too much Molson??????
Poetic justice for PT. I like the guy and I like the way he races, but SB had CLEARLY moved forward of PT at pit out and should have given way for the yellow line. SB kept his wheels below the yellow and therefore it was considered a racing incident.
Nothing like Good Karma.
Haha, you accuse her of drinking too much? Did you miss the blend line? Did you see that Bourdais had plenty of room to keep 2 wheels under the yellow line and didn't have to move that far over? It was a racing incident, but a bad move on Bourdais' part.
Insomniac
07-10-05, 05:44 PM
I'm still trying to figure out why Tracy was allowed to race lap after lap with a broken wing; does anyone know why it was suddenly OK to do that? Anyway, tough luck for PT in front of his hometown crowd! :(
Why wouldn't he be allowed to? Maybe a safety concern if it were to come off entirely? As nrc pointed out, it appeared to be stable. Plus, where do you draw the line? End plates go, even uprights on the front wings go.
Aside from that, people lose pieces of their car all the time and continue on with the race.
devilmaster
07-10-05, 05:44 PM
And a :thumbup: should be given to cotman.
He's trying to avoid FCY's as much as he can, and allow the cars to race.
Its something alot of the hardcore fans have complained about, and they are starting to show they are listening.
Dougrun
07-10-05, 05:56 PM
1. The wing incedent was sebs fault. Tracy held his line coming out of the pits and seb didn't even get 2 wheels over the line, he cut in to keep all 4 inside, so he cut his tire. You want to be first out of the pits, you gamble.
2. Champcar left that wing on the track far too long. With track telemetry, they could have easily had someone grab it and get it off the track.
3. Tracy could have been pulled back into the pits (which were still closed) got fuel and a wing, rejoined, serve a penalty, and still finish top 10. His patience didn't want to wait though.
Great job for justin, poor AJ though, a rough hit too.
TKGAngel
07-10-05, 06:18 PM
2. Champcar left that wing on the track far too long. With track telemetry, they could have easily had someone grab it and get it off the track.
3. Tracy could have been pulled back into the pits (which were still closed) got fuel and a wing, rejoined, serve a penalty, and still finish top 10. His patience didn't want to wait though.
Word on #2. If someone sneezed the wrong way at pit out, they were running over the chunk-o-wing.
As to #3, PT reallywas just having a temper tantrum and not being penalized in any way? I would have thought that since he was in front of his home audience - and his dad, which the announcers made a big deal about - that he would have sucked it up and done a bonzai run from the back, like the PT of old.
3. Tracy could have been pulled back into the pits (which were still closed) got fuel and a wing, rejoined, serve a penalty, and still finish top 10.
Again, does anyone know that for a fact? What are the rules?
FCYTravis
07-10-05, 06:37 PM
#2 would require Champ Car to start allowing marshals out on course to pick parts up.
I don't think you'll see that for a long time, if ever.
Insomniac
07-10-05, 06:38 PM
3. Tracy could have been pulled back into the pits (which were still closed) got fuel and a wing, rejoined, serve a penalty, and still finish top 10. His patience didn't want to wait though.
He seemed awfully calm in the interview immediately after exiting the car for it to be a temper tantrum. He asked Neil Mickelwright what he should do. Maybe someone at the track with a scanner knows what he told him (it's over?).
Insomniac
07-10-05, 06:54 PM
Again, does anyone know that for a fact? What are the rules?
All I can find is:
"A race car that has stalled while on the track may be restarted by pushing or towing by the Officials."
from the 2004 Rulebook.
i honestly think the race is over because they can't tow the car back to the pits. I know PT pulled over right next to the pit, and conceivably his team couls put the car on the jack and pull him back into the pit, but I think your race is over. It's simply a mechanical failure.
jonovision_man
07-10-05, 06:57 PM
He seemed awfully calm in the interview immediately after exiting the car for it to be a temper tantrum. He asked Neil Mickelwright what he should do. Maybe someone at the track with a scanner knows what he told him (it's over?).
I was there with a scanner. He said something to the effect "how the **** can you guys let me run out of fuel???". To which the team explained that if they'd pitted that lap like they'd planned, they'd have been fine... but Tracy fired back that he wouldn't have made it even then.
He sounded confused, asked the team if he'd get "a tow or what?". Then I saw him getting out of the car, didn't hear what the team had said back to him.
jono
jonovision_man
07-10-05, 06:59 PM
1. The wing incedent was sebs fault. Tracy held his line coming out of the pits and seb didn't even get 2 wheels over the line, he cut in to keep all 4 inside, so he cut his tire. You want to be first out of the pits, you gamble.
It's a little confusing, though. PT had the only pit stall where you don't have to pull out and "merge" with the other traffic, he could just fire forward, so it looked like he had the right of way when maybe he didn't? I don't know what the rule is... Sebastian was clearly ahead of him when they got to the point where the line squeezed them into single file, by all but the wing. Oops.
I'd call it a racing incident, two guys who put everything at stake in one move, neither wanted to yield and they touched. It happens.
jono
One of my first Champ Car races that I have watched start to finish and I was greatly impressed with Tracy's performance driving 1/2 wingless. I was scratching my head though why he didn't pit as soon as he hit the pit window to take care of the wing and get some fuel considering they didn't fill it up in the previous stop. Sure enough it burned him but it did turn out to be quite an enjoyable race for this noob.
coolhand
07-10-05, 07:43 PM
Too much Molson??????
Poetic justice for PT. I like the guy and I like the way he races, but SB had CLEARLY moved forward of PT at pit out and should have given way for the yellow line. SB kept his wheels below the yellow and therefore it was considered a racing incident.
Nothing like Good Karma.
PT exited the pit first, he did not need to give anymore room than he did. he slowed down and bourdais cut right in front of him.
all around a day of bad luck for Paul, his career has either been days of running into everyone or shwoing up and dominating. this was not one of his days.
Racing Truth
07-10-05, 07:49 PM
Question: Has that line (where you have to have 2 wheels below it) always been there?
coolhand
07-10-05, 08:37 PM
that thing was held on by one peg
http://www.champcar.ws/content/photos/2005/By800/20050710P_0025.jpg
http://www.champcar.ws/content/photos/2005/By800/20050710P_0013.jpg
It seems many here think it is acceptable to pull out of your pits and cross a middle lane to try to block a car going 60 mph through the pits? :shakehead
Sebass was well ahead and had to make the line, Tracy should have backed off.
Does the in-car telemetry measure the fuel level directly, or is calculated from other things like fuel consumption, spring loads, engine revs, etc.?
FCYTravis
07-11-05, 04:11 AM
Measuring fuel level directly from a float (like cars do) is impossible in fuel-celled cars. Horribly inaccurate. Therefore, extrapolation is used in modern computer data systems to determine how much fuel is in the car.
Essentially, the rate of fuel consumption per lap is determined by computer models and Precision Guesswork. At each race, we use a very precise one-gallon standard test measure jug to weigh a gallon of the track's gasoline - because it weighs slightly less or more varying on the supply.
A log is kept of how much fuel is put into the car. At the end of each session, the remaining fuel in the tank is pumped out and measured. So, you subtract the amount of fuel that was put into the car from the amount of fuel that was left in the tank. That tells you your fuel consumption, fairly accurately. Divide by the number of miles the car completed during the session and you have a mile-per-gallon figure for that session. That number is then. averaged with the other sessions to provide a more stable baseline estimate of fuel consumption
Then, generally, at least in Grand-Am, we'll fill the car to the brim during practice and then run it until the tank's dry, flipping to reserve to get it back. That gives us a *very* good indication of the total range at the given track.
A few laps prior to the yellow and running out of fuel PT was asked if he could drive the rest of the race with the front wing the way it was. He replied '10-4'. The response from I think Micklewright, 'You're my hero'. :cool:
Watching the lap times on a Kangaroo thingy he seemed to be only about a half second off the pace of the cars behind him except SB. I doubt he could have held off Wilson to the end though.
jonovision_man
07-11-05, 08:07 AM
PT exited the pit first, he did not need to give anymore room than he did. he slowed down and bourdais cut right in front of him.
I can see both sides, though.
The way I saw it, Bourdais had exited his pit first and had more speed when PT came in front of him. He had every right to pass him - he had the "outer" lane that the rest of the cars were using, while PT was cutting accross at an angle from having the front stall... Bourdais had enough momentum that he was almost completely in front of Tracy when they touched.
Racing incident.
jono
More on the fuel situation here (http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1&c=Article&cid=1121032210930&call_pageid=968867503640&col=970081593064&t=TS_Home)
Ted
Insomniac
07-11-05, 08:48 AM
It seems many here think it is acceptable to pull out of your pits and cross a middle lane to try to block a car going 60 mph through the pits? :shakehead
Sebass was well ahead and had to make the line, Tracy should have backed off.
Yeah, Bourdais was going 60 MPH from the pit stall behind Tracy. Right...:rolleyes:
PT was ahead at the blend line and PT had the inside. Bourdais wanted it and chopped inward. Whoops.
Insomniac
07-11-05, 08:50 AM
I can see both sides, though.
The way I saw it, Bourdais had exited his pit first and had more speed when PT came in front of him. He had every right to pass him - he had the "outer" lane that the rest of the cars were using, while PT was cutting accross at an angle from having the front stall... Bourdais had enough momentum that he was almost completely in front of Tracy when they touched.
Racing incident.
jono
Definitely a racing incident, but you can still assign blame. ;)
Insomniac
07-11-05, 08:54 AM
More on the fuel situation here (http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1&c=Article&cid=1121032210930&call_pageid=968867503640&col=970081593064&t=TS_Home)
Ted
Thanks Ted! Looks like Neil Mickelwright had no clue they were that low. Definitely a team mistake.
PT was drifting into Sebastien's lane, trying to push him outside of the blendline. Sebastien didn't bite. Either one of them could have taken action that would have prevented the incident - neither one of them did. One of them racin' deals.
As for the wing, TV interviewed Tony Cotman, who said that the wing appeared to be stable. Since it didn't appear to be a safety hazard to Paul or any of the other drivers, he was allowed to continue.
I have two guesses as to why he climbed out of the car. One is that it was too long of a distance for the safety team to tow him around the track to get back to the pits. It would have taken a while, and race control would want to get back to green sooner. The second guess is that he was in a safe place, so it would be a while before the safety team got to him. Combine that with the time it would take to tow him almost an entire lap, and he would have been many laps down. There probably wasn't much point in continuing.
Too much Molson??????
Poetic justice for PT. I like the guy and I like the way he races, but SB had CLEARLY moved forward of PT at pit out and should have given way for the yellow line. SB kept his wheels below the yellow and therefore it was considered a racing incident.
Nothing like Good Karma.
Position is determined by who crosses the pit out line 1st. PT was a car length clear of Sebastien.
Try harder to hate.
Measuring fuel level directly from a float (like cars do) is impossible in fuel-celled cars. Horribly inaccurate. Therefore, extrapolation is used in modern computer data systems to determine how much fuel is in the car.
Essentially, the rate of fuel consumption per lap is determined by computer models and Precision Guesswork. At each race, we use a very precise one-gallon standard test measure jug to weigh a gallon of the track's gasoline - because it weighs slightly less or more varying on the supply.
A log is kept of how much fuel is put into the car. At the end of each session, the remaining fuel in the tank is pumped out and measured. So, you subtract the amount of fuel that was put into the car from the amount of fuel that was left in the tank. That tells you your fuel consumption, fairly accurately. Divide by the number of miles the car completed during the session and you have a mile-per-gallon figure for that session. That number is then. averaged with the other sessions to provide a more stable baseline estimate of fuel consumption
Then, generally, at least in Grand-Am, we'll fill the car to the brim during practice and then run it until the tank's dry, flipping to reserve to get it back. That gives us a *very* good indication of the total range at the given track.
Why they don't do that in Champ Car, I don't know...
Most do Travis. And a flow-meter will give you accurate real time data thru the logger as well. One simply needs to pay attention to the data, something that Forsythe's people have messed up on many times.
oddlycalm
07-11-05, 12:22 PM
The good news in all of this was that the officials didn't jump in. Tony Cotman said it was a racing incident. He also didn't black flag Tracy or throw a FCY for the wing on the track. All good calls IMO. Let 'em race.
Champcar officiating has gotten a lot better of late without calling a FCY to resolve every minor issue. Add to that the repeal of the phony required pit stop nonsense and they seem to have gotten the right message. I feel like the races have improved as a result. Gone are is the circus clown and good riddence.
oc
Andrew Longman
07-11-05, 12:29 PM
The good news in all of this was that the officials didn't jump in. Tony Cotman said it was a racing incident. He also didn't black flag Tracy or throw a FCY for the wing on the track. All good calls IMO. Let 'em race.
Champcar officiating has gotten a lot better of late without calling a FCY to resolve every minor issue. Add to that the repeal of the phony required pit stop nonsense and they seem to have gotten the right message. I feel like the races have improved as a result. Gone are is the circus clown and good riddence.
oc
Agreed, though I was a little troubled by the wing on the track. But the camera angle may have made it look more dangerous than it was so I'm willing to believe the people on the ground made the right call.
jonovision_man
07-11-05, 12:36 PM
Agreed, though I was a little troubled by the wing on the track. But the camera angle may have made it look more dangerous than it was so I'm willing to believe the people on the ground made the right call.
If the cars had gone 2-wide through there, they'd almost certainly have hit it... not sure it was the best call.
jono
Winston Wolfe
07-11-05, 12:56 PM
I have two guesses as to why he climbed out of the car. One is that it was too long of a distance for the safety team to tow him around the track to get back to the pits. It would have taken a while, and race control would want to get back to green sooner. The second guess is that he was in a safe place, so it would be a while before the safety team got to him. Combine that with the time it would take to tow him almost an entire lap, and he would have been many laps down. There probably wasn't much point in continuing.
Not sure I agree with you here JB....
I know its a big "IF", but IF PT had decided to stay out, go a lap or two down, he would have been brought up the finish ranks through the massive attrition that took place throughout the second half of the race. Or perhaps, PT could have gotten into more trouble and caused some of that carnage himself, trying to pass some of the backmarkers, and made even a more impressive afternoon of it all.
I still believe that if you are thinking about a championship winning season, you do your best to finish EVERY LAP.... seems like PT was pretty pizzed and just gave up... YEAH, being towed around would have stunk, and being a lap down, or even two, is pretty crappy, but at least they could have fixed the wing, and he could have had some fun ! Nothing like driving a 750HP car in the streets of a city near your hometown on a bright sunny day !!!! :thumbup:
Andrew Longman
07-11-05, 01:08 PM
Not sure I agree with you here JB....
I know its a big "IF", but IF PT had decided to stay out, go a lap or two down, he would have been brought up the finish ranks through the massive attrition that took place throughout the second half of the race. Or perhaps, PT could have gotten into more trouble and caused some of that carnage himself, trying to pass some of the backmarkers, and made even a more impressive afternoon of it all.
I still believe that if you are thinking about a championship winning season, you do your best to finish EVERY LAP.... seems like PT was pretty pizzed and just gave up... YEAH, being towed around would have stunk, and being a lap down, or even two, is pretty crappy, but at least they could have fixed the wing, and he could have had some fun ! Nothing like driving a 750HP car in the streets of a city near your hometown on a bright sunny day !!!! :thumbup:
I'm not sure towing him around the track back to the pit was an option within the rules. I think the safety team is allowed to tow him to get him restarted or to get him in a safe place. They got him in a safe place but since he was out of gas they weren't going to be able to restart him. I don't recall a champcar safety team ever towing someone back to the pits.
Since he was just at pit out perhaps he could have pushed his car back to his stall, or his crew could have got him, but I also suspect there is a rule that says you have to enter the pits from the entrance not exit.
I doubt there was anything to do but quit or they would have done it. Tracy's team wasn't pissed he quit and Tracy seemed resigned to his plight (though certainly not happy with his team)
FCYTravis
07-11-05, 02:04 PM
Most do Travis. And a flow-meter will give you accurate real time data thru the logger as well. One simply needs to pay attention to the data, something that Forsythe's people have messed up on many times.
LOL... oops, the "why, blah blah" was left over from another part I deleted beforehand about reserve fuel systems, I realized why they didn't do it and edited that part out, but forgot to remove the end kicker :o
Racing Truth
07-11-05, 02:18 PM
Agreed, though I was a little troubled by the wing on the track. But the camera angle may have made it look more dangerous than it was so I'm willing to believe the people on the ground made the right call.
Well, I understand why they didn't. I'm not sure, by any means, that EVEN IF 2 cars tried going side-by-side that the wing would have been an issue. It may have have been wide enough not to be in the way. That said, a "quick yellow" couldn't have really hurt.
Steve99
07-11-05, 02:19 PM
PT was drifting into Sebastien's lane, trying to push him outside of the blendline. Sebastien didn't bite. Either one of them could have taken action that would have prevented the incident - neither one of them did. One of them racin' deals.
If PT drifting means Bourdais turning sharp right then you are correct. Go watch the reply again and use your own eyes rather than listen to the commentators. PT held a pretty consistent line, but Bourdais pulled right even though he only needed to keep two wheels inside the blend line. I was a Bourdais fan, but these incidents this year are getting on my nerves.
Racing Truth
07-11-05, 02:20 PM
Position is determined by who crosses the pit out line 1st. PT was a car length clear of Sebastien.
Try harder to hate.
I'm asking b/c I honestly don't know, but does this apply to, IIRC, GREEN flag stops?
jonovision_man
07-11-05, 02:40 PM
If PT drifting means Bourdais turning sharp right then you are correct. Go watch the reply again and use your own eyes rather than listen to the commentators. PT held a pretty consistent line, but Bourdais pulled right even though he only needed to keep two wheels inside the blend line. I was a Bourdais fan, but these incidents this year are getting on my nerves.
I just did watch it again, and I'm more convinced than ever this was Tracy's fault.
http://www.petruk.net/images/tracy.JPG
jono
cameraman
07-11-05, 02:45 PM
I just did watch it again, and I'm more convinced than ever this was Tracy's fault.
http://www.petruk.net/images/tracy.JPG
jono
Bourdais only needed two wheels below the yellow line, not all four. He came in on Tracy. A racing incident but one that is mostly on Bourdais .
Sean O'Gorman
07-11-05, 02:48 PM
Bourdais only needed two wheels below the yellow line, not all four. He came in on Tracy. A racing incident but one that is mostly on Bourdais .
And Tracy needed exactly zero wheels on Bourdais to avoid an incident. It was PT's fault.
Racing Truth
07-11-05, 02:54 PM
I just did watch it again, and I'm more convinced than ever this was Tracy's fault.
http://www.petruk.net/images/tracy.JPG
jono
That is kind of damning, isn't it?
And Tracy needed exactly zero wheels on Bourdais to avoid an incident. It was PT's fault.PT got HIT by Bourdais. Blend line/two wheels my butt. He tried to "complete the pass" and get into (for lack of a more precise term) a blocking position. He just wasn't quite carlength+n in front of him.
Bourdais' fault.
(anyone else think that PT may have bogged the car exiting the pitbox? He left before SB, seemed to slow a bit, then SB caught him very quickly.)
ETA: post a few frames just before and just after the one posted, you will see a lot of lateral movement by Bourdais.
Looks to me like SB has lot of room to his left. He didn't need to chop.
go vote in the poll.
http://www.champcarworldseries.com/FrontPage.asp
jonovision_man
07-11-05, 05:02 PM
Looks to me like SB has lot of room to his left. He didn't need to chop.
Looks to me like PT has a lot of room to his right, he didn't need to spear accross. He also had room to yield the position.
Easy to say from a photo, it happenned really fast in real life so I'd say "racing incident" brought on by two guys trying their hardest to gain an advantage.
But more PT's fault than Sebastian's. :)
jono
The fact that an equal number of people are lining up on each side of the "Who is at fault?" debate confirms this as Just One Of Them Racin' Deals.
Andrew Longman
07-11-05, 06:06 PM
The fact that an equal number of people are lining up on each side of the "Who is at fault?" debate confirms this as Just One Of Them Racin' Deals.
I was just about to say that. And I thought that at the time of the incident. Just part of the drama of the sport.
Steve99
07-11-05, 07:15 PM
Looks to me like PT has a lot of room to his right, he didn't need to spear accross. He also had room to yield the position.
PT isn't the one that moved over. Grab a few more frames to see that Bourdais is the one that moved to his right, initiating the contact.
The pole on CCWS website is favoring PT, but I'm sure that will blamed on all the PT fanboys.
I think PT was expecting SB to come over more gently and he didn't, so I'll go with one of them racing deals, but if you're going to chop, you better make sure you have the room to do so.
jonovision_man
07-12-05, 07:46 AM
PT isn't the one that moved over. Grab a few more frames to see that Bourdais is the one that moved to his right, initiating the contact.
.
I can't go any further forward (the director hadn't cut to the overhead yet) but here's after, gives a sense of who was moving in what direction.
http://www.petruk.net/images/tracy.JPG
http://www.petruk.net/images/tracy2.JPG
http://www.petruk.net/images/tracy3.JPG
It looks to me like Sebastian is actually moving OUT, not IN, on Tracy.
jono
Insomniac
07-12-05, 08:06 AM
I just did watch it again, and I'm more convinced than ever this was Tracy's fault.
http://www.petruk.net/images/tracy.JPG
jono
You need more than a single picture. Show where they were before that and see who moved. Is PT supposed to drive into the wall?
Insomniac
07-12-05, 08:11 AM
I can't go any further forward (the director hadn't cut to the overhead yet) but here's after, gives a sense of who was moving in what direction.
http://www.petruk.net/images/tracy.JPG
http://www.petruk.net/images/tracy2.JPG
http://www.petruk.net/images/tracy3.JPG
It looks to me like Sebastian is actually moving OUT, not IN, on Tracy.
jono
Yes, after he moved in on him. Bourdais wanted the inside line going into the corner and moved back in on PT. He needed to be ahead just a little more to do it. As it was before that, PT would've had the inside line.
jonovision_man
07-12-05, 08:27 AM
Well people can draw their own conclusions. When I was in the stands, I was giving Bourdais the thumbs-down with the rest of the crowd, but I stand corrected.
Racing incident for the most part, but if you make me chose I'd say PT should have backed off. Happenned so fast and I expect Bourdais caught him off guard, but ultimately Bourdais had 90% of his car ahead of PT's, while PT had room and was slicing accross at an angle.
jono
Paintergeek
07-12-05, 09:48 AM
that thing was held on by one peg
http://www.champcar.ws/content/photos/2005/By800/20050710P_0025.jpg
http://www.champcar.ws/content/photos/2005/By800/20050710P_0013.jpg
Each 'peg' is intact, and each has two bolts through it. It was sheared off so quickly that the area it is bolted through probably remained perfectly undamaged and therefore was totally safe. I dont know how anyone could have made that judgement ay speed, but I was very happy with no FCY. However, that huge chunk of wing debris at pit out WASNT ok, and should have beenm cleared, even if it meant a lap of FCY.
Insomniac
07-12-05, 11:28 AM
Well people can draw their own conclusions. When I was in the stands, I was giving Bourdais the thumbs-down with the rest of the crowd, but I stand corrected.
Racing incident for the most part, but if you make me chose I'd say PT should have backed off. Happenned so fast and I expect Bourdais caught him off guard, but ultimately Bourdais had 90% of his car ahead of PT's, while PT had room and was slicing accross at an angle.
jono
Hehe, PT and back-off, not going to happen, especially when he had the inside line to the corner. They were racing. Bourdais got the worst of it, and in the end PT ran out of fuel so Bourdais came out the winner. Bourdais is just as aggresive as PT, he just hasn't been around as logn to build the reputation. He doesn't back down either.
racer2c
07-12-05, 11:43 AM
PT beat SB to the white line. SB shouldn't have passed him after the white line, cutting PTs wing off in order to get two tires below the yellow line. It was SB who should have backed off when he saw PT in front of him. Since when is pit exit the chosen passing lane? SB saw red when PT was in front of him and made a bad choice.
Just my 2 cents.
jonovision_man
07-12-05, 11:53 AM
Hehe, PT and back-off, not going to happen, especially when he had the inside line to the corner. They were racing. Bourdais got the worst of it, and in the end PT ran out of fuel so Bourdais came out the winner. Bourdais is just as aggresive as PT, he just hasn't been around as logn to build the reputation. He doesn't back down either.
Sounds good to me... :thumbup: :D
But I'm not the one with the championship on the line. ;)
jono
Andrew Longman
07-12-05, 11:54 AM
I'm just glad we aren't seeing fines, penalties and probation for "avoidable contact" or "unnecessary risk taking". Hopefully with the current officiating crew that crap is history.
The only lasting damage is to the reputations of the drivers which, depending on who you are a fan of and your perspective on the incident, is not a bad thing at all.
Keeps us talking about them. ;)
PT beat SB to the white line. SB shouldn't have passed him after the white line, cutting PTs wing off in order to get two tires below the yellow line.
That was my impression of the protocol: the order at the pit exit line set the order in the exit lane. I went to the rule book and couldn't find any reference to it, so maybe I dreamed it.
It is interesting to note that Seabass got set back behind Servia in Cleveland for chopping him in the pit exit lane.
Keeps us talking about them. ;)It's so gd refreshing to talk about a very exciting race, instead of the usual FTG, Grand Am, Danicle, etc., etc.
Oh yeah. It's SB fault. :p But it's still, just one of them thar racin' things.
Good that no penalties were issued.
I would think that the pit exit line only decides positions under full course yellows.
Under yellow, passing is allowed in the pit lane but not on the track. Whatever position you're in at the pit-exit line is the order you assume behind the pace car. Under green conditions, you can pass wherever you want (so long as you stay on the track), thus the pit exit line has no role.
For whoever was ahead at the pit exit line to make any difference, it would require there to be a rule that says: Passing is allowed in the pit lane, up until the pit exit line. At that point, cars must freeze and stay below the blend line, until they have rejoined the racing surface, at which point passing is allowed again. As far as I know, that rule doesn't (and shouldn't) exist.
Either one of them could have prevented the contact. Neither one of them did. That's why they call it racing.
I'm just glad we aren't seeing fines, penalties and probation for "avoidable contact" or "unnecessary risk taking". Hopefully with the current officiating crew that crap is history.I've been reading Zanardi's book, and I really think that was the advent of all that. Zanardi was just so good at coming through racing incidents relatively unscathed that it created an epidemic outbreak of whineritis. Eventually they got into a vicious circle of whining and penalties. I'm not saying that it was all undeserved, but some people needed to shut up and race.
PT got HIT by Bourdais. Blend line/two wheels my butt. He tried to "complete the pass" and get into (for lack of a more precise term) a blocking position. He just wasn't quite carlength+n in front of him.
Bourdais' fault.
(anyone else think that PT may have bogged the car exiting the pitbox? He left before SB, seemed to slow a bit, then SB caught him very quickly.)
ETA: post a few frames just before and just after the one posted, you will see a lot of lateral movement by Bourdais.
I am curious, did you think Bruno's crash at Indy was his fault or IVs?
When your front tire isn't 2/3 of the way alongside another car, it is stupid to expect to have room left for you going into a corner.
I am curious, did you think Bruno's crash at Indy was his fault or IVs? didn't see it.
oddlycalm
07-12-05, 01:10 PM
Either one of them could have prevented the contact. Neither one of them did. That's why they call it racing. Absolutely, let 'em race. Tony Cotman made a good call and he made it to the entire TV audience, so there was no chance of misinterpretation by an announcer.
This is a refreshing change. We are left to discuss PT vs Kermit and comiserate with 'dinger who was driving at 11/10's when it kissed the wall and lost it. :thumbup: Pretty damn good boulevard race.
oc
Dirty Sanchez
07-12-05, 01:30 PM
Tracy got out-Tracy'ed :laugh:
definitely not Bourdais' fault, imo... no call was the correct call :thumbup:
here was my vantage point, btw... I watched them after they passed me at pit-out. I remember being surprised about how much Bourdais was on it...
http://www.champweb.net/coppermine/albums/userpics/10007/tor_43.jpg
jonovision_man
07-12-05, 01:41 PM
Tracy got out-Tracy'ed :laugh:
definitely not Bourdais' fault, imo... no call was the correct call :thumbup:
here was my vantage point, btw... I watched them after they passed me at pit-out. I remember being surprised about how much Bourdais was on it...
http://www.champweb.net/coppermine/albums/userpics/10007/tor_43.jpg
Hey, I might have a picture of YOU. :) I was in the stands right accross, 21.
The fans sure thought Tracy beat him out, they cheered immediately. Went something like "YEEEEAH!!!.... huuuuh? OOOOOOH! NOOOOO!"
jono
Dirty Sanchez
07-12-05, 01:47 PM
post it
Insomniac
07-12-05, 02:14 PM
That was my impression of the protocol: the order at the pit exit line set the order in the exit lane. I went to the rule book and couldn't find any reference to it, so maybe I dreamed it.
It is interesting to note that Seabass got set back behind Servia in Cleveland for chopping him in the pit exit lane.
I think that only applies to the caution periods.
Insomniac
07-12-05, 02:17 PM
I would think that the pit exit line only decides positions under full course yellows.
Under yellow, passing is allowed in the pit lane but not on the track. Whatever position you're in at the pit-exit line is the order you assume behind the pace car. Under green conditions, you can pass wherever you want (so long as you stay on the track), thus the pit exit line has no role.
For whoever was ahead at the pit exit line to make any difference, it would require there to be a rule that says: Passing is allowed in the pit lane, up until the pit exit line. At that point, cars must freeze and stay below the blend line, until they have rejoined the racing surface, at which point passing is allowed again. As far as I know, that rule doesn't (and shouldn't) exist.
Either one of them could have prevented the contact. Neither one of them did. That's why they call it racing.
I think you are right. Generally, you don't see guys coming out of the pits beside each other, which probably causes these problems. They normally fall into a line. Maybe there is an understood rule?
Insomniac
07-12-05, 02:18 PM
Tracy got out-Tracy'ed :laugh:
definitely not Bourdais' fault, imo... no call was the correct call :thumbup:
here was my vantage point, btw... I watched them after they passed me at pit-out. I remember being surprised about how much Bourdais was on it...
http://www.champweb.net/coppermine/albums/userpics/10007/tor_43.jpg
Nice picture. You take a lot of good ones.
Steve99
07-12-05, 02:42 PM
However, that huge chunk of wing debris at pit out WASNT ok, and should have beenm cleared, even if it meant a lap of FCY.
Is there such a things as a lap of FCY in Champ Car? Close the pits, bunch up the field, open the pits (do cars not on the lead lap still have to wait an extra lap to pit?), signal one lap to green etc. What is the minimum number of laps it takes for the simplest FCY?
FCYTravis
07-12-05, 02:58 PM
They have "quick yellows" now where they open the pits to all cars regardless of lap... and they'll signal one to go by just turning the pace car lights out. If they get the track clear by the time the pace car is on the backstretch they'll turn out the lights and turn 'em loose without worrying about whether they got the one finger from the start stand.
racer2c
07-12-05, 03:40 PM
Nice picture. You take a lot of good ones.
Proffesionals tend to do that. ;)
We may have gone around in circles over an ex champ, but Crapus takes the best Champ Car pics I've ever seen. It's really awesome he shares them with us here on OC. :thumbup:
Andrew Longman
07-12-05, 04:55 PM
Nice picture. You take a lot of good ones.
Ditto on Crapus. Always fantastic shots. This one is especially compelling knowing what is about to happen. I love too the looks the teams are giving eachother to see who beat who out. That and the heat coming off the cars convey so much emotion of the moment. :thumbup:
Is that heat, or a photoshop treatment? Kind of hard to tell.
racer2c
07-12-05, 05:16 PM
Is that heat, or a photoshop treatment? Kind of hard to tell.
that's the real deal. Also, look at PT with his eyes in the mirrors.
Andrew Longman
07-12-05, 06:02 PM
that's the real deal. Also, look at PT with his eyes in the mirrors.
And Servia's crew looking on. And the drivers' hands both giving the wheel a large input. :D Again, great shot.
post it
Where's Crapus? http://www.sccs.swarthmore.edu/users/00/dbranni/Wald.gif
http://www.motorsport.com/photos/champcar/2005/tor/champcar-2005-tor-rb-0204.jpg
http://www.champweb.net/coppermine/albums/userpics/10007/tor_43.jpg
From that angle it looks like PT is going to beat him out. Now I understand why some people thought SB exceeded the speed limit. Wonder what happened. Wheel spin by PT? Can SB use PTP on pit lane? Or is it just a funny angle? (Looked to me like SB got out first and had more momentum, but it doesn't look like it from the photo.)
Insomniac
07-12-05, 07:33 PM
Where's Crapus? http://www.sccs.swarthmore.edu/users/00/dbranni/Wald.gif
http://www.motorsport.com/photos/champcar/2005/tor/champcar-2005-tor-rb-0204.jpg
I think you guys are on the same side of the track.
Dirty Sanchez
07-12-05, 08:10 PM
Is that heat, or a photoshop treatment? Kind of hard to tell.not shopped in, I can assure you. thanks for the comments on this shot :) :thumbup: it was a big moment in the race, for sure.
I am not pictured in that shot posted by gnam. I'm further down towards the exit of pitlane (left of picture). the picture I posted was full frame (not cropped) at 300mm + a 1.4x teleconverter.
about tracy getting beat out. I'm thinking he may have been driving his mirrors a bit too much and was late on the gas, while bourdais was dead on the limit.
Lizzerd
07-13-05, 12:25 AM
If Crapus' picture was taken from the right side of the frame, it does indeed appear that PT is out ahead. That it was taken from the left side of the frame (which I didn't realize until he pointed it out above) shows me that SB was on pit lane as PT was still in his pit.
Am I right, Jamie?
Dirty Sanchez
07-13-05, 09:30 AM
you're confusing me. I was stationed a bit to the driver's left on my shot.
Bourdais hit his box first (before Tracy)... they left at about the same time (as is shown in my picture). iirc, the pitboxes were ~50ft long... which means Tracy had a 50ft advantage to get to the end of the speed limited area in pitlane. all things being equal, in terms of nailing the gas at the appropriate time, Tracy should have beaten Bourdais out of the pits completely. I'm a little unclear where that line actually is... but I think it was before they passed me (thus my surprise from seeing Bourdais already next to him as they passed me)
like I said, I think Tracy may have been driving his mirrors a bit too much worried about where Bourdais was and probably missed the acceleration point... this is what allowed Bourdais to make up the distance. that was probably Tracy's first mistake. second mistake was not yielding after he'd been beaten off the line. I don't see any fault in Bourdais' driving... he was the aggressor for sure, but he had position.
I watched the tape. Tracy had wheel spin. SB didn't.
from my post, number 51:
(anyone else think that PT may have bogged the car exiting the pitbox? He left before SB, seemed to slow a bit, then SB caught him very quickly.)Watch the rear tires of both cars in the video.
Hoowheee, this is fun!
Jaime, awesome shot! Thankyouthankyouthankyou! :thumbup:
I still think that SB tried to force the "blocking" position but was a few inches shy on the car length thing. Besides, my oldest saw it and said, "That car took out Paul Tracy." Who am I to argue? (I didn't know he knew who PT was. :cool: )
Racing thing? Sure. Fault? SB.
When it happened I thought Seabass' finger must have slipped off the pit speed limiter early because he surged forward and past PT too quickly. Telemetry must have captured the real truth. Do the rules provide for racing after the pit exit line if there's room? If so, it's a racing incident.....if not, SB needed to fall in line....
Great debate but at the end pointless as DaMatta turn 1 wreck negated the short fuel advantage and the broken wing never really impacted anyone really except Bourdais. I was in awe of PT turning real fast laps with broken wing aboard. Great race!
Racing Truth
07-13-05, 03:35 PM
I'm still unclear as to the blend line issue. Namely, does this apply under the green flag? If the answer is YES, the fault is totally with Seabass. If, as I might suspect, the answer is NO, then I place most of the blame on PT.
Insomniac
07-13-05, 10:03 PM
I'm still unclear as to the blend line issue. Namely, does this apply under the green flag? If the answer is YES, the fault is totally with Seabass. If, as I might suspect, the answer is NO, then I place most of the blame on PT.
I don't think it applies. But I do recall rules against going immediately out into the far lane from your pit box. So presumably, those rules would avoid the side-by-side out of the pits because you would go to the first lane to get out, then the outside lane and be in a line. You don't really see cars exiting next to each other except under yellow when the blend line is used to determine position behind the pace car.
Toronto wallpapers (http://www.champcarworldseries.com/Event/Wallpaper.asp) are up on Champcar.ws.
This one looks familiar... :thumbup:
http://www.champcarworldseries.com/Content/Wallpaper/2005/640x480/CCWS2005_Toronto_09.jpg
Warlock!
07-14-05, 07:45 AM
Toronto wallpapers (http://www.champcarworldseries.com/Event/Wallpaper.asp) are up on Champcar.ws.
This one looks familiar... :thumbup:
http://www.champcarworldseries.com/Content/Wallpaper/2005/640x480/CCWS2005_Toronto_09.jpg
I like the "feel" of Crapus' shot more... the one Champcar's got up looks like a screen capture.
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