How fast can a F1 car go?

[coolhand]

(GMMf1NET -- Jul.8) How fast can a Formula One car go?

It's a question that'll be answered when BAR plonk a Brackley based contender on the Bonneville Salt Flats in Utah (US) some time in October.

Team CEO Nick Fry, who said around 250mph is the target, confirmed that the 007 will have a parachute installed at the rear, and run very low downforce.

''It's a Lucky Strike idea,'' he told Autoweek.

''At Monza, we do approximately 220. (At Bonneville) we think it should be able to exceed 250mph (413kmh).''

Fry said either Adam Carroll or James Rossiter, both junior drivers, would steer the car.

Bonneville is a 121 square-kilometer salt flat in north western Utah. The quickest land speed recorded there exceeded 600 miles per hour (1000kmh).

-------------------------
thats it?

what did Champ Car reach at the end of the backstreach of Fontana a few years ago?

they averaged 240 so they must of been well above that and the end of the straight.

[rosawendel]

gil reached 242 at california speedway. i believe it was a "closed course speed record".

[chop456]

If memory serves, the fastest F1 speed was set by Coulthard in a McLaren at Hockenheim and was about 224.

[jonovision_man]

(GMMf1NET -- Jul.8) How fast can a Formula One car go?

It's a question that'll be answered when BAR plonk a Brackley based contender on the Bonneville Salt Flats in Utah (US) some time in October.

Team CEO Nick Fry, who said around 250mph is the target, confirmed that the 007 will have a parachute installed at the rear, and run very low downforce.

''It's a Lucky Strike idea,'' he told Autoweek.

''At Monza, we do approximately 220. (At Bonneville) we think it should be able to exceed 250mph (413kmh).''

Fry said either Adam Carroll or James Rossiter, both junior drivers, would steer the car.

Bonneville is a 121 square-kilometer salt flat in north western Utah. The quickest land speed recorded there exceeded 600 miles per hour (1000kmh).

-------------------------
thats it?

what did Champ Car reach at the end of the backstreach of Fontana a few years ago?

they averaged 240 so they must of been well above that and the end of the straight.

That's interesting, my instinct would have been faster too. You'd think they'd be able to gear it for massive speed with that 1000bhp engine back there and the low weight!

But I guess the circuits mostly require the cars to get through corners as fast as possible and accelerate to top speed as quickly as possible. They don't spend a lot of time at the top speed at most tracks, even at Monza. Could just be a question of design and the limits of the current chassis spec too.

jono

[Insomniac]

(GMMf1NET -- Jul.8) How fast can a Formula One car go?

It's a question that'll be answered when BAR plonk a Brackley based contender on the Bonneville Salt Flats in Utah (US) some time in October.

Team CEO Nick Fry, who said around 250mph is the target, confirmed that the 007 will have a parachute installed at the rear, and run very low downforce.

''It's a Lucky Strike idea,'' he told Autoweek.

''At Monza, we do approximately 220. (At Bonneville) we think it should be able to exceed 250mph (413kmh).''

Fry said either Adam Carroll or James Rossiter, both junior drivers, would steer the car.

Bonneville is a 121 square-kilometer salt flat in north western Utah. The quickest land speed recorded there exceeded 600 miles per hour (1000kmh).

-------------------------
thats it?

what did Champ Car reach at the end of the backstreach of Fontana a few years ago?

they averaged 240 so they must of been well above that and the end of the straight.

ChampCar should show up that day too. :)

[Insomniac]

gil reached 242 at california speedway. i believe it was a "closed course speed record".

He averaged 241.428MPH with the special Honda engine in qualifying.

[rosawendel]

that's what i get for going from memory... thanks.

[Sean O'Gorman]

Has Michelin requested a chicane put in at Bonneville yet?

[cameraman]

Have any of these guys ever been to the salt flats?
It is not as nearly as smooth as the asphalt these guys normally run on.
F1 cars strike me as being a bit fragile for Bonneville runs...

[coolhand]

He averaged 241.428MPH with the special Honda engine in qualifying.

i was under the impression they hit 270 at some point on the lap there.

241 was the average for the whole lap.

so if a champ car was at boneville it should easiliy beat 250

[cameraman]

The Flats can have a very long run up before you get to the timing gear. They could put some crazy-tall gears in the car and get some really fast and totally unrepresentative times if they want to.

[oddlycalm]

Have any of these guys ever been to the salt flats?
It is not as nearly as smooth as the asphalt these guys normally run on.
F1 cars strike me as being a bit fragile for Bonneville runs... Yeah, it wouldn't be my first choice either. As far as lake beds go the Black Rock desert is a better choice and isn't corrosive to the equipment, but an F1 car doesn't really need a lake bed to accellerate to maximum speed. Unless they plan to run non-spec skinny tires they don't even need a straight track. Sounds like silly publicity nonsense to me and Bonneville is probably being used due to name recognition.

Of course the real irony is that there are plenty of home-built jalopies and bikes that hit faster speeds than an F1 car will be able to achieve with stock tires and aero package regardless of how it's trimmed out. The PR people probably don't realize the potential for insulting comparisons, but I'm sure we will see them here and elsewhere. I can't wait to see pics of some SCTA guy like J. Howe blowing the doors off the BAR Honda with a 298mph run in a chopped down '32 Ford roadster that runs with an unblown motor in the B Vintage category. :rofl: If you think that will be funny, the current diesel truck record is 272mph....

oc

[racer2c]

I hope they put those skinny Salt Flat tires on them. :)

[Ozarkian]

Didn't Andre Ribiero hit 256 or thereabouts in '96 on the back straight at Michigan in a Penske? (edit: straight-line speed, not lap time)

[coolhand]

Didn't Andre Ribiero hit 256 or thereabouts in '96 on the back straight at Michigan in a Penske? (edit: straight-line speed, not lap time)

thats what i am saying, in speedway trim i believe that De ferran hit 270 on the backstreach in his record run at fontana.

[Ozarkian]

thats what i am saying, in speedway trim i believe that De ferran hit 270 on the backstreach in his record run at fontana.

I don't remember that - it seems like a pretty big differential between top speed on the straights and lap speed (around 30 mph). The biggest differential I can recall is Emmo at Indy in '94; his trap speed going into turn 3 was typically around 248, but he scrubbed it down to 228 in the corners because the PC-23s that year was so ill-handling; his lap time was around 231). Just going from memory, though, not saying it couldn't/didn't happen. I recall that Ribiero's 256 is the highest for a Champcar, but is informal because he did it during testing.

Either way, Champcars can hit some pretty impressive speeds when they're allowed to stretch their legs ...

[Lizzerd]

I don't remember that - it seems like a pretty big differential between top speed on the straights and lap speed (around 30 mph). The biggest differential I can recall is Emmo at Indy in '94; his trap speed going into turn 3 was typically around 248, but he scrubbed it down to 228 in the corners because the PC-23s that year was so ill-handling; his lap time was around 231). Just going from memory, though, not saying it couldn't/didn't happen. I recall that Ribiero's 256 is the highest for a Champcar, but is informal because he did it during testing.

Either way, Champcars can hit some pretty impressive speeds when they're allowed to stretch their legs ...

You are right on about the '94 Penskes, Ozarkian. They were even accused of sandbagging their qual and practice times because of their straight speed that year. The fact was that they did indeed have to brake and/or scrub a lot of speed in the corners. Hence, the '95 debacle of not being on the grid because they didn't pay enough attention to the other setup data gained during May '94 for the next year. Oddly enough, though, Penske and his gang finished 1-2-3 for the CART season, as I recall, or close to it anyway.

The Merc pushrod engines were incredible, though. If you can, watch a tape of the '94 Indy 500. On the restarts, AU Jr. and Emmo would be half a straight away after a half lap.

Ironic that IMS hammer on RP the next year because of those engines made him one of the leading voices in CART's camp after the temper tantrum.

Edit: Fixed an oops.

[Brickman]

confirmed that the 007 will have a parachute installed at the rear, and run very low downforce.



Franklin's day in the sun. ;)

[cameraman]

World Finals are October 12 - 15 this year.
They will either run that week or perhaps not run that week if they do not wish to be embarassed by guys like this:

http://www.scta-bni.org/Bonneville/World%20Finals/World%20Finals%2004/photos_16/IM008002.JPG

Running well over 250 mph on a budget significantly less than $300,000,000


...

[gjc2]

If they have tires suitable for running on the salt and if they can substantially reduce the aerodynamic drag produced by pieces used to produce down force, and if the design of the transmission and final drive allows for the use of "tall" enough gearing, they will run very fast. I would guess way over 250mph.

George

[Jag_Warrior]

Franklin's day in the sun. ;)

Ever hear anything about him anymore?

[pchall]

You guys missed the most important point: will Max and the FIA insist on a minimum of two chicanes on the Flats?

[gjc2]

You guys missed the most important point: will Max and the FIA insist on a minimum of two chicanes on the Flats?

Actually will Michelin require the chicanes?

[Sean O'Gorman]

Helllllllllllo, post #8. Unless you are anyone but the guy on Honda-Tech that I stole the joke from, please give me credit. :D

[Mike Kellner]

I think the aprox 255 at Michigan is as fast as a ChampCar ever went on a track. That was with enough wing to go around banked turns. I think that was when they had about 900 HP. I would guess that if they took a GP car and removed the wings, and various aero bits they hang everywhere, and used a low downforce undertray, they might see 270. Skinny tires might be good for another 10 mph. Whoever mentioned gear ratios was right on. The ideal gearing might not fit in teh transmission.

I remember AutoWeek ran a test in the 80s with a Le Mans car vs a NASCAR Monte Carlo to test top speed, and the Chevy won. If a 750 HP 84 Monte Carlo can get close to 250, a GP car should too.

mk

[pchall]

Actually will Michelin require the chicanes?

We could blame the ACO as well, since they put two chicanes in the Mulsanne. :(

[Insomniac]

You guys missed the most important point: will Max and the FIA insist on a minimum of two chicanes on the Flats?

Max wouldnt allow the flats to be reconfigured because they brought crappy tires. :) And for some reason, this makes perfect sense. ;)

[Insomniac]

thats what i am saying, in speedway trim i believe that De ferran hit 270 on the backstreach in his record run at fontana.

Holy crap! 270!?!?! That just seems insane. They would have to brake a fair amount to bring the average down to 240.

[Insomniac]

How fast did the ChampCar get when it raced a fighter jet down a runway?

[gjc2]

I remember AutoWeek ran a test in the 80s with a Le Mans car vs a NASCAR Monte Carlo to test top speed, and the Chevy won. If a 750 HP 84 Monte Carlo can get close to 250, a GP car should too.

In that test the stock car was provided by Hendricks and was driven by Tim Richmond. The Porsche 962 was provided and driven by Bob Holbert. Holbert underestimated the competition by not bringing the 962’s LeMans aero package.

George

ps: I think it may have been Road & Track, not Autoweek, but I'm not sure.

[Winston Wolfe]

Holy crap! 270!?!?! That just seems insane. They would have to brake a fair amount to bring the average down to 240.

I was at Fontucky that day back in '01 when GDF set that record....

I was also there in 97 when Big Mo ran about 240.xxx.... and was sitting down near the fence in T1... when he went by he was noticably faster than the rest and set the record.

In order to AVERAGE 240 + like GdF and Big Mo on a closed course, with having to brake for the corners, I have got to imagine that they must be hitting 260-265 MPH on that back stretch going into T3 at Fontana, since they would have to brake to get it down to 225-228 in the corners, right ?

I'm no math whiz, but in order to round up those lesser cornering speeds, they needed to be going 260 or more on the straight to make that thing average out to 240 or 241....

I have been around the track in a pace car on two seperate occasions, maybe at 125-130 (NSX once, and Mustang Convertible), and have done the CART Driving 101, in the two seater at maybe 130-135.... and I cant imagine what its like to go TWICE as fast as that...

The F1 cars develop more HP than CC's do, but with all of the aero stuff hanging off it, and the design for light weight and the stiff suspension, I bet it will be a handful, even in a straight line.... Should be interesting, tho' :thumbup:

[coolhand]

I was at Fontucky that day back in '01 when GDF set that record....

I was also there in 97 when Big Mo ran about 240.xxx.... and was sitting down near the fence in T1... when he went by he was noticably faster than the rest and set the record.

In order to AVERAGE 240 + like GdF and Big Mo on a closed course, with having to brake for the corners, I have got to imagine that they must be hitting 260-265 MPH on that back stretch going into T3 at Fontana, since they would have to brake to get it down to 225-228 in the corners, right ?

I'm no math whiz, but in order to round up those lesser cornering speeds, they needed to be going 260 or more on the straight to make that thing average out to 240 or 241....

I have been around the track in a pace car on two seperate occasions, maybe at 125-130 (NSX once, and Mustang Convertible), and have done the CART Driving 101, in the two seater at maybe 130-135.... and I cant imagine what its like to go TWICE as fast as that...

The F1 cars develop more HP than CC's do, but with all of the aero stuff hanging off it, and the design for light weight and the stiff suspension, I bet it will be a handful, even in a straight line.... Should be interesting, tho' :thumbup:


thats what i thought, except someone did tell me they hit "270" entering T3. they may have rounded up but who knows.

the fact is that in speedway trim Champ cars on a oval are faster than an F1 car at boneville. :thumbup: :thumbup: :saywhat:

[Insomniac]

I was at Fontucky that day back in '01 when GDF set that record....

I was also there in 97 when Big Mo ran about 240.xxx.... and was sitting down near the fence in T1... when he went by he was noticably faster than the rest and set the record.

In order to AVERAGE 240 + like GdF and Big Mo on a closed course, with having to brake for the corners, I have got to imagine that they must be hitting 260-265 MPH on that back stretch going into T3 at Fontana, since they would have to brake to get it down to 225-228 in the corners, right ?

I'm no math whiz, but in order to round up those lesser cornering speeds, they needed to be going 260 or more on the straight to make that thing average out to 240 or 241....

I have been around the track in a pace car on two seperate occasions, maybe at 125-130 (NSX once, and Mustang Convertible), and have done the CART Driving 101, in the two seater at maybe 130-135.... and I cant imagine what its like to go TWICE as fast as that...

The F1 cars develop more HP than CC's do, but with all of the aero stuff hanging off it, and the design for light weight and the stiff suspension, I bet it will be a handful, even in a straight line.... Should be interesting, tho' :thumbup:

See, I didn't think they braked going into turns, just let off the throttle. I can't remember though.

[gjc2]

the fact is that in speedway trim Champ cars on a oval are faster than an F1 car at boneville.

An F1 car has not yet turned a wheel on the salt. A 1200 pound car with 900HP, is going to be very fast. If they can put together the proper aero package and gearing we could see 300MPH. The problem that will have to be worked out is the relationship between the traction of the rear tires on the salt versus the aerodynamic drag. When speed doubles, aero drag increases four times. The drive wheels will have to have enough grip to overcome the aero drag.

George

[Badger]

See, I didn't think they braked going into turns, just let off the throttle. I can't remember though.


When the cars were running 240+ mph laps, they were not lifting. They also were not hitting 270 on the straights and were more likely around 248-250.

[Mike Kellner]

When the cars were running 240+ mph laps, they were not lifting. They also were not hitting 270 on the straights and were more likely around 248-250.

I believe that is correct. IIRC: The 255 at MIS was somone getting a tow in traffic. To run a 240, they would scrub down to about 233-235 in the slowest part of the turns, and reach the high 240s at the end of the straight. For the race, the cars were set up with more wing, and would not run as fast.

mk

[eiregosod]

Fittipaldi said that the CC cars were doing 248 on the backstretch of Texas Motorspeedway.

The F1 cars were hitting 220 mph at Hockenheim, for the speed test they wont have a front wing, and the cockpit will be enclosed in all likliness that the cars will go even faster perhaps 270mph

[coolhand]

http://www.tsn.ca/auto_racing/news_story.asp?ID=135292&hubName=auto_racing

update.

Get a champ car out there on the same day.

[oddlycalm]

Considering that the fastest cars were hitting 230mph at Monza, BAR saying they can best 249mph (400Kph) doesn't seem very ambitious. It's also well short of the speeds reached by many of the home-built dry lake sleds that folks have been running for years, so I still don't see what the big whoop is about. The width of the wheels/tires and gearing will be the governing factors, not the engine or chassis.

F1 cars are remarkable for their cornering forces, braking and the insanely high revs that allow a 3.0L NA engine to put out 900+hp. Putting one on a dry lake for a top speed run is kinda like entering a bass fishing tournament in an unlimited hydroplane. It might be fun as long as one doesn't mind getting beaten by guys in $10K bass boats. :gomer:

A champ car with a 2.6L turbo Cosworth with the rev limiter removed and the boost turned back up to former levels to produce approx. 950-1000HP and with the right gearing should handily blow away an F1 car with an 3.0L NA engine. Both cars would have similar horsepower but the champ car would have more torque and narrower tires which should more than offset it's higher weight. If it didn't, then turning up the boost a bit further certainly should. ;) If my fuzzie recollection is correct the turbo Cozzie is good for around 1200hp if one doesn't care about longevity beyond 30-50 miles of running.

oc

[TorontoWorker]

I heard that someone put an ex Trans Am Merker turbo engine in the back of an old Euro Swift Formula Ford and went over 370. Is this true? Seems like major league brown underware if true!

[TorontoWorker]

The width of the wheels/tires and gearing will be the governing factors, not the engine or chassis.

Wouldn't traction be the limiting factor?

[oddlycalm]

Wouldn't traction be the limiting factor? It changes with the salt conditions, but generally it's only a big problem in the lower gears which is obviated by the long runup. Besides, the BAR has traction control... :gomer: Anyway, it's the same for everyone and most of the dry lake rigs are running smooth skinnies to lessen both rolling resistance and aero drag.

oc

[jonovision_man]

It changes with the salt conditions, but generally it's only a big problem in the lower gears which is obviated by the long runup. Besides, the BAR has traction control... :gomer: Anyway, it's the same for everyone and most of the dry lake rigs are running smooth skinnies to lessen both rolling resistance and aero drag.

oc

Smooth skinnies? That'd make for one butt-ugly F1 car. :D

jono

[formulaben]

Considering that the fastest cars were hitting 230mph at Monza, BAR saying they can best 249mph (400Kph) doesn't seem very ambitious. It's also well short of the speeds reached by many of the home-built dry lake sleds that folks have been running for years, so I still don't see what the big whoop is about. The width of the wheels/tires and gearing will be the governing factors, not the engine or chassis.

oc

The tires are the big factor here, IMHO. I think 260 would probably be all it would be good for if they were to run in the normal FIA configuration, but given that they'll have some hard and SKINNY tires, I think 285+ is definitely attainable. 300 just might happen.

[devilmaster]

Smooth skinnies? That'd make for one butt-ugly F1 car. :D

jono

probably looks like one of those spoked bicycle wheels they put on the smaller formula cars when they're about to throw them on the trailer....

[Michaelhatesfans]

Putting one on a dry lake for a top speed run is kinda like entering a bass fishing tournament in an unlimited hydroplane....
Nice. :laugh:

[rosawendel]

www.bonneville400.com (http://www.bonneville400.com)

[Michaelhatesfans]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Kellner
I remember AutoWeek ran a test in the 80s with a Le Mans car vs a NASCAR Monte Carlo to test top speed, and the Chevy won. If a 750 HP 84 Monte Carlo can get close to 250, a GP car should too.

In that test the stock car was provided by Hendricks and was driven by Tim Richmond. The Porsche 962 was provided and driven by Bob Holbert. Holbert underestimated the competition by not bringing the 962’s LeMans aero package.

George

ps: I think it may have been Road & Track, not Autoweek, but I'm not sure.
I remember something from that article about having the gear ratios on the 962 set up for the road course, not optimum speed.

[coolhand]

http://www.bonneville400.com/flash/default.aspx

that car is going to get eaten alive by all tha abrasive salt.

thats also an excelent website just for a one off thing like this. It does not cost much to do a good job like that. Champ car teams should check that out.

[Badger]

A champ car with a 2.6L turbo Cosworth with the rev limiter removed and the boost turned back up to former levels to produce approx. 950-1000HP and with the right gearing should handily blow away an F1 car with an 3.0L NA engine. Both cars would have similar horsepower but the champ car would have more torque and narrower tires which should more than offset it's higher weight. If it didn't, then turning up the boost a bit further certainly should. ;) If my fuzzie recollection is correct the turbo Cozzie is good for around 1200hp if one doesn't care about longevity beyond 30-50 miles of running.

oc


Where to start :shakehead. The optimal gearing is determined when aero is equalized against the maximum hp the engine can produce. That means, if peak hp is at 13,000 rpm, top speed will be attained with a gear that allows 13,000 rpm. Hp is a function of torque, but it is ultimately hp to the wheels that determines top speed. You can do it at 20000 rpm and low torque, or 10000 rpm and high torque, it wont make a difference. Lastly, weight does not affect top speed, only acceleration.

[Methanolandbrats]

If this thing digs in and barrel rolls or endos, will there be anything left? Will it be Martin Donnelly all over again.....anyone given any thought to that aspect of it?

[coolhand]

If this thing digs in and barrel rolls or endos, will there be anything left? Will it be Martin Donnelly all over again.....anyone given any thought to that aspect of it?

I think the car is to fragil for the salt surface. These cars are amazing but this is far from what they are desgined to do.
I still think Champ Car should show up and set up a tent right next to the BAR one and show them up.

[jonovision_man]

Lastly, weight does not affect top speed, only acceleration.

That's not entirely true... a heavier car will generate more friction in the tires. So slight it's probably not measurable, but I'm a stickler for accuracy. ;)

jono

[oddlycalm]

The optimal gearing is determined when aero is equalized against the maximum hp the engine can produce. That means, if peak hp is at 13,000 rpm, top speed will be attained with a gear that allows 13,000 rpm. Hp is a function of torque, but it is ultimately hp to the wheels that determines top speed. You can do it at 20000 rpm and low torque, or 10000 rpm and high torque, it wont make a difference. Lastly, weight does not affect top speed, only acceleration. Agreed, however what I was referring to was is the cars would behave on the salt, and whether one or the other would realize any particular advantage. Weight is definitely an issue as while the acceleration zone at Bonnevile is long by race track standards the traction on the salt is dreadful and powerful cars routinely have difficulty with wheel spin even when pulling very tall gears and miss realizing their full potential. I would guess that active traction control would be a significant advantage. As running opportunities are limited proper gearing for the conditions are a result of calculations based on best guesses at conditions during the run, the particular torque curve of an engine may have quite a lot to do with the end result.

oc

[EDwardo]

Since this thread is about records for open wheel cars, it would be remiss to not include the altitude record. Since its is likely that the IRL wouldn't include it, I nominate Mario Andretti's sub orbital flight in a Crapwagon at Indy. I can recall no other incident that achieved such height. If memory serves me, he piloted his tub higher and further than the Wright brothers first flight. :rolleyes:

[TorontoWorker]

Since this thread is about records for open wheel cars, it would be remiss to not include the altitude record. Since its is likely that the IRL wouldn't include it, I nominate Mario Andretti's sub orbital flight in a Crapwagon at Indy. I can recall no other incident that achieved such height. If memory serves me, he piloted his tub higher and further than the Wright brothers first flight. :rolleyes:

What about the guy that strapped a JADO rocket on the roof of his car - lit the fuse and was going well until he ran out of room as the road came to a bend - hit an earth bank and got airborne hitting the side of a clif several hundred feet higher then the road he left.

When you gotta go - do in a big way I say!

[gjc2]

JADO rocket

I think it's a JATO rocket (Jet Assisted Take Off)

hey man, wanna get high?

[Ozarkian]

If memory serves me, he piloted his tub higher and further than the Wright brothers first flight. :rolleyes:

Doubt if Orville and Wilbur had loops in mind at Kitty Hawk, either.

[formulaben]

I think it's a JATO rocket (Jet Assisted Take Off)


...and while we're picking nits, it's either a jet or a rocket, but not both (there's no such thing as a "JATO rocket.") It's usually a RATO unit that people are referring to.

[gjc2]

...and while we're picking nits, it's either a jet or a rocket, but not both (there's no such thing as a "JATO rocket.") It's usually a RATO unit that people are referring to.


http://www.cains.com/cains/funnies/darwin.html

http://bopedia.com/en/wikipedia/j/ja/jato.html

[chop456]

What about the guy that strapped a JADO rocket on the roof of his car - lit the fuse and was going well until he ran out of room as the road came to a bend - hit an earth bank and got airborne hitting the side of a clif several hundred feet higher then the road he left.

When you gotta go - do in a big way I say!


http://www.snopes.com/autos/dream/jato.asp

[TorontoWorker]

So whats with all the crap on this site that says the BAR attempt is CLOSED to the public? It's to be a "private affair"!!! Typical F1 BS!

Sept15th

"Several issues demand that, sadly, we have to conduct our record attempt in private", said a team insider.
www.bonneville400.com

What issues? Just the fact your going to SUCK big time? I hope they blow up big!

F Honda!!!

Question for those in the area: How exactly can you close off a salt flat? Is this private property or public property? And if it is owned by the federal government... how can BAR get away with this? Did they rent the whole damn place as in pay money? Sounds like a little court action from some lawyer who hates crap like this is in order.

It cannot be a safety issue as they don't close off spectator areas when other cars are going double + the speed they will be attempting.

This sounds just like the typical F1 "Because we WANT it this way - so you will DO IT this way" attitude. I'm willing to bet that they just ran a PC sim and found out they will fail and don't want any public around.

[TorontoWorker]

You know, I was just notcing that they have got this swiss fashion photo type - Hannes Schmid doing a "movie" about this attempt. This guy was responsible for a really stupid photo shoot a few years back with Jenson and JV where and I quote:
Schmid's next challenge was how best to maximise the impact of this special house and integrate its features into the photo shoot. The obvious starting point was the villa's impressive infinity pool and amphitheatre. Hannes made the bold decision to sink a full-sized Formula One car of the bottom of the pool to act as the most dramatic background for the wet shots. The impact of a BAR004 at rest under two metres of water was incredible. "I decided to put the car in the swimming pool so I could get some contrasts between the mechanical nature of the machine and the natural feel of the water." said Schmid. "Everything we did was about contrasts."

Next he had to make a floatation device on which the drivers could lie during the shoot. In order to gain the desired affect of the drivers appearing to be afloat on the surface of the water, these had to be constructed from clear Perspex, thin enough to yield the desired effect. Finally, he commissioned large olive and red mobiles to complete the feel of nature against machinery for his backdrops on dry land.

I bet this closed to the public was part of the deal so no one steals his crazy look.

I hope the BAR runs over his cameras...

[cameraman]

Question for those in the area: How exactly can you close off a salt flat? Is this private property or public property? And if it is owned by the federal government... how can BAR get away with this? Did they rent the whole damn place as in pay money?

The Salt Flats are administered by the Salt Lake District of the BLM. I don't go out there often enough (truth be told, it is a nasty place) to know what the non-racing weekend rules are. The BLM, the racers, and the Utah state government would prefer it if everyone stayed off of the flats as they are extremely fragile and all it would take is one ******* in a 4by4 tearing around at the wrong time of year to destroy the track. There is a fence along the interstate and a gate on the access road but I don't remember much else. On race weekends access is controlled by the sanctioning body (whose exact name escapes me at the moment) so if they can control it I am sure BAR can strike the same deal. I am sure that they do not want to pay for the liability insurance & security needed to open it up to the public.

[TorontoWorker]

I am sure that they do not want to pay for the liability insurance & security needed to open it up to the public.

But BAR are paying the expenses? This is a multi billion dollar company. My BS radar lit up when I read the "several issues" post.

Thanks for the info on the flats. Is this the same place as "black rock" or is that in another location?

[cameraman]

Black Rock was replaced by Miller Motorsports Park, at the same location, which is 70 - 90 miles east of the Flats. I don't remember the exact distance.

[Michaelhatesfans]

If this thing digs in and barrel rolls or endos, will there be anything left? Will it be Martin Donnelly all over again.....anyone given any thought to that aspect of it?
That is one series of photos that will be burned into my memory forever...
:(

[oddlycalm]

Thanks for the info on the flats. Is this the same place as "black rock" or is that in another location? If you are referring to the Black Rock Desert where the British Thrust SSC set the first supersonic land-speed, it is near the corner of of Nevada where Oregon, California and Nevada come together. Most of the LSR efforts are based out of Gerlach, NV which is around 80mi North of Reno and it's at the extreme Southwest corner of the Black Rock Desert. Land Speed Record (http://www.cnn.com/TECH/9710/15/brits.land.speed/)

It's also where the Burning Man gathering of around 25,000 people occurs. The Burning Man pics are a great way see the desert. These folks are predomintly artists, and have nothing much to do all week, so there are around 7500 pictures on the site. Try starting with 2005 and go from there.
Burning Man on the Black Rock Desert (http://images.burningman.com/index.cgi?q_photog=&q_category=&q_keyword=&q_year=&skip=80)

oc

[Gnam]

^ bump

They come back. :thumbup:


F1 land speed record: The Honda Racing F1 team will return to the Bonneville Salt Flats in Utah from July 17-21 to make another attempt at setting a land speed record for a race-legal F1 car similar to the one that Rubens Barrichello drove to sixth place in the United States Grand Prix.
link (http://www.motorsport.com/news/article.asp?ID=224286&FS=F1)

Speed should do a documentary.

[Gangrel]

oops :D

[Gangrel]

Doubt if Orville and Wilbur had loops in mind at Kitty Hawk, either.

Doubt that Mario had them in mind at Indy, too. :D

(I laugh because he was ok) ;)

[Wolfeman]

I seem to recall that the pre-WWII Mercedes and Auto Unions were capable of 250+ in race trim. (no wings) See this link, http://www.ddavid.com/formula1/story1.htm, for a story of a pre-ware Auto Union hitting 436.9 km/hr on a 1km test run. (That's almost 272 mph.)

[oddlycalm]

Yawn.... So, in the end the Honda hits 246mph (397kph) which is just a bit faster than Champ Cars were going on the big ovals before the boost regulations brought down the power. For that matter, I recall qualifying laps at Indy that were in the 232mph range. What a waste of time this has been, but I'm sure we'll see this in Honda advertising likes it's some kinda big deal. :rolleyes:

oc

[gjc2]

I recall qualifying laps at Indy that were in the 232mph range.

The absolute fastest lap at the speedway was just a tick less the 240mph. It was done by Arie Luyendyk, and is was during practice so it's not official. I also believe the lap was made during a partial solar eclipse.

George

[chop456]

I seem to recall that the pre-WWII Mercedes and Auto Unions were capable of 250+ in race trim. (no wings) See this link, http://www.ddavid.com/formula1/story1.htm, for a story of a pre-ware Auto Union hitting 436.9 km/hr on a 1km test run. (That's almost 272 mph.)

And that was a big waste for some.

http://www.kolumbus.fi/leif.snellman/er2.jpg

[Wolfeman]

And that was a big waste for some.

http://www.kolumbus.fi/leif.snellman/er2.jpg

Wow, I just read an account of Rosemeyer's accident. It's less than complimentary about the engineers and the equipment. A waste indeed.

http://www.kolumbus.fi/leif.snellman/zana.htm

In all honesty, since 1999, I always got nervous when Champcar went to the big tracks. Those kind of speeds are scary now, not to mention 70 years ago.

[devilmaster]

In all honesty, since 1999, I always got nervous when Champcar went to the big tracks. Those kind of speeds are scary now, not to mention 70 years ago.

I still believe though, that CC should be on highspeed ovals. I believe part of the fear of racing at those speeds is what made Indy - Indy, and what made the Mulsanne straight such a spectacular sight.

I believe that these OW cars can still race on those tracks, it just has to be done right. You can't rev limit or over downforce them. That packs them up. You have to give them speed and take away downforce so that they can drive the cars and are forced to lift the throttle now and then.

Back on track, thanks for that link. It was a good read. :thumbup: