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Dirty Sanchez
06-23-05, 01:29 PM
wondering when the show fans here will catch on? :gomer:

reproduced without permission. excellent article. if you enjoyed it, consider an atlas subscription :thumbup:

---------------------------
The Big Charade

By Biranit Goren, England
Autosport-Atlas Editor in Chief

It is easy to understand why many are inclined to blame the FIA for the Indianapolis fiasco: what was so difficult in slapping a few coloured tyres in a row on the banked Turn 13, put the three Bridgestone teams at the front and just run a non-Championship race to please the spectators? Really, anyone could do it! Well, thank heavens the FIA didn't. There's a reason why we follow Formula One, and watching a charade should not be it. Biranit Goren calls for all involved to assume responsibility

"How wonderful to have someone to blame! You may be miserable, but you feel forever in the right. You may be fragmented, but you feel absolved of all the blame for it. Take your life in your own hands, and what happens? A terrible thing: no one to blame." -- Erica Jong

"We sat down and somebody immediately asked: 'So, how many races do we want next year?' So we went on talking about that." This, according to an unnamed source talking to Italian magazine Autosprint, was how the team principals' meeting on Saturday at Indianapolis began.

"At one point, [Renault chief Flavio] Briatore stood up and left," the source continued. "The others were about to follow him, when Ron Dennis raised his hand and asked: 'Excuse me, what are we doing about the tyres?'"

Nothing, apparently. They did nothing about the tyres.

Instead, seven teams elected to make a mockery of Formula One and dared pretend that the responsibility was anyone but theirs.

Last year, Michelin's motorsport director Pierre Dupasquier reveled at the technological capabilities of the men involved in Formula One. "I always remember how," Dupasquier told Atlas F1, "in 1981, after Goodyear withdrew from Formula One, I told Bernie [Ecclestone] that I was capable, according to the machines I had, to produce only four sets of identical tyres for every driver for the weekend, and he said 'OK, it's fine with me'. And we did it. The English guys at that time never saw a radial Michelin tyre before. Never. But in the first race of 1981, in Long Beach, our teams absolutely dominated.

"It proved to me that in Formula One, after just a few kilometres, in a few laps, the engineers are capable of achieving a decent setup no matter what you give them."

Not so, apparently. The engineers weren't even asked to come up with a solution in Indianapolis. The meetings in Indianapolis were attended by team principals or team representatives, rather than the technical directors assembling to find a solution for their faulty cars. With all respect, Flavio Briatore and Paul Stoddart were never going to come up with a technical solution; it was always going to become political.

By Saturday afternoon, it was declared as fait accompli that the Michelin tyres brought to the US Grand Prix - both options, in fact - were incapable of withstanding the high speeds through the banked Turn 13. But rather than finding a technical solution within each team; rather than going to the technical directors and telling them, this is your challenge, deal with it - all eyes turned to the FIA.

And it's a damn good thing that the governing body told them to solve the problem themselves.

It was only two months ago that BAR-Honda were banned for two races for a breach of the technical regulations. They raced in the San Marino Grand Prix with a car that carried an extra amount of fuel because they needed it to make their car work properly. Without that extra fuel, the team said, their drivers would experience a mechanical failure.

What they did wrong, and what led to their penalty, was the fact that they decided to solve a performance problem by breaking the rules, as their car was underweight when that fuel was pumped out. Last weekend, seven teams - including BAR-Honda - were looking to do the same.

Astonishingly, the teams concede this to be the case, and magnanimously had offered to race without points, start behind the Ferrari cars - a whole host of suggestions that would allow them to pretend to be racing, but not really take part in a real race.

Formula One fans really should be dismayed at the idea that the teams could think so little of them! Are we really that thick, that entertainment-starved, that we would accept a charade that runs for 73 laps as an adequate substitute for a Formula One race? Why? Is that really a better "show" than the pathetic six-car race we received instead?

If the teams realised they could not race and wanted to give some compensation to the fans, they could have arranged, with the help of their sponsors and the Indianapolis Motor Speedway, a whole host of activities that could be considered priceless for the visiting crowd. Let the fans meet the drivers - hell, let them meet Ron Dennis and Flav - surely that would have made the fans in the grandstand much happier, much more conciliatory, than a pretence show?

Display the cars behind adequate rails and let the fans view them up close in an all-afternoon pit walkabout. Send the drivers for signing sessions and stage interviews. Give away teams merchandise. But first acknowledge that you let the fans down, and that you are accountable for giving them something they might actually like. And a farcical race - with six cars or 20 - is not what they asked for. It's not why we tune in every other Sunday. It's not what Formula One should be about.

More importantly, if the seven Michelin teams truly believed that racing around the Indianapolis Motor Speedway - on the layout approved by the FIA and prepared for by all teams - was not possible for safety reasons, then they should have done the honourable thing and simply withdrawn from the race in a dignified manner. Yes, withdrawn. Peter Sauber withdrew both his cars out of the 2000 Brazilian Grand Prix after both his drivers suffered rear wing failure. He notified the race stewards on Saturday that his team would not take part in the race, on safety grounds. He was praised by colleagues, media and fans worldwide.

It's hard to actually accept that all seven teams had to withdraw from the race, that all of the teams suffered similar problems and had no way of overcoming it. But even if that is the case - even if there was no viable way for the teams to install speed limiters on their cars, or pit frequently for a change of tyres, or drive through the pitlane to avoid Turn 13 - or any other solution that is in the hands of the team and drivers - then surely there was a better way to end this, than to collude to put on a shameful display of protest that truly does put the sport in disrepute?

What was the point of making it to the grid, then running the installation lap, only to drive back into the pits, if not to orchestrate a protest, presumably against the FIA? In doing that, the seven team principals broke the unwritten rule of Formula One: as Frank Williams once famously said, Formula One is a sport for two hours on Sunday, and a business the rest of the time.

At Indianapolis, politics and business were taken to the track. The drivers were pawns in a political game, and the spectators were the herd of predators, unleashed at the FIA.

We shouldn't be that naive. Yes, FIA's Charlie Whiting letters - and the FIA's decision to reveal them (for transparency, of course!) - were an act of humiliation for the teams and Michelin, but also an act of self-preservation. When all else fails, you're always going to blame the FIA. This time is no different: every straw poll and online survey reveals the fans instantly place the blame squarely at Mosley's domain. After all, seven teams making a statement - and was that statement not loud and clear? - is always going to be much more influential than the Machiavellian-style that seems to prevail the FIA's statements.

There is a culture of blame in Formula One that began well before the Indianapolis debacle. Competitive environment often breeds lack of accountability and an inclination to point fingers: when everyone wants to win all the time, public debates are no different; someone has to end up as the loser.

It is so rare to see a driver admit to making an error - that when he does, it is almost considered a sign of weakness. It is even more rare to see anyone - FIA official, team owner, technical director, mechanic - raise his hand and say, "it's me. I'm to blame." Which is why you really must feel sympathy for Dupasquier - the only man so far to stand up and say, "We screwed up."

Michelin's "screw up" is particularly interesting, because it highlights the issue of accountability in Formula One.

The FIA has summoned the seven teams to appear in front of the World Motor Sport Council next week; Michelin was not summoned as well. Perhaps the FIA has a different plan in mind for the hurting French company, and perhaps the governing body quite rightly concluded that the responsibility for the Indy boycott lays squarely at the teams' doorstep. After all, Michelin did the responsible thing, which was to inform its partners that the tyres are not safe. But Michelin never prevented the teams from following the regulations on how to withdraw from the race, if at all.

That said, Michelin must be held accountable for its mistake. Much as everyone in Formula One respects - even admires - the Michelin men, their dedication to motorsport and their commitment to technological innovation in a competitive environment, someone really has to say it aloud: this is the kind of mistake that should get someone fired. Someone really ought to pay for this negligence.

Moreover, there is an inclination to point at the 2005 one-tyre-per-race rule as the real culprit of what happened at Indianapolis. The US Grand Prix came just three weeks after McLaren's Kimi Raikkonen retired in the lead, on the last lap of the European Grand Prix, having suffered a suspension failure that was a result of a badly flat-spotted tyre. In the ensuing days - and in the Canadian Grand Prix two weeks later (and a week before the US event), it was common sport to criticise the new rule and the FIA for introducing it.

Funny how short the collective memory can be.

One year ago, the FIA World Motor Sport Council met in Paris to discuss what it called "the current performance level of Formula One cars", noting a significant increase in speed over the period of seven years. The message that came out of the WMSC was clear: the teams must find ways of reducing the cars' speed, or be prepared to have the FIA announce unilaterally their measures of speed reduction.

In the backdrop of this, were statements made by FIA president Max Mosley that Formula One could do better with a single tyre supplier. Two months before the WMSC meeting, Mosley proposed a list of sweeping changes to the F1 regulations as of 2008 and, indeed, among them was restricting the series to a single tyre provider - a controlled tyre, in fact, as the supplier would be contracted to the FIA, not the teams.

Speaking at a press conference on May 4th 2004, following a meeting of the the Formula One team representatives at Monaco, Mosley said: "There was complete agreement for the need of a single tyre supplier ... If we had a single tyre supplier it would be far less expensive, because of testing, it would be fairer, because everybody would be on the same basis, and there would also be a very important safety aspect in that with a single tyre we would be able to control the degree of grip and therefore preventing excessive cornering speeds."

Michelin, somewhat more than its rival Bridgestone, was vocal against the idea. "We don't like this idea at all," Dupasquier told Atlas F1 back then. "Every time we entered officially into racing, it was with a partner - and in order to try, along with him, to help him be better than the opposition."

Moreover, Dupasquier maintained the position that Mosley's objectives - of reducing speed, increasing safety, and cutting costs - could be obtained by working with the tyre makers, within the current Formula One environment of competitive tyre supply. The Frenchman was adamant that his company has a solution and promised they would make a proposal to the FIA.

Michelin's proposal to the FIA was revealed on the same day the WMSC had met in Paris, in fact. And what did Michelin propose? What was Michelin's solution to speed reduction, increased safety, and reduced cost? You guessed it: a single tyre for qualifying and the race. :laugh: :rofl:

Oh, the irony.

"Michelin feels that its proposals are very much in line with the FIA's main objectives for the future," a statement by the company on June 30th 2004 said. "These objectives are to control performances by reducing cornering speeds for reasons of safety, to offer a very substantial reduction in costs through the virtual elimination of tyre testing, and to improve the racing spectacle without introducing artificial rules."

Michelin's proposals, to be precise, were as follows:

• the use of one set of tyres for qualifying and the entire race;

• between four sets and two sets of dry tyres to be available for each driver per weekend, available in one or two types;

• supply of same specification prime and same specification option for all teams;

• six sets per team for each test day (with a recommendation for a drastic reduction in testing during the F1 season, to be decided by either the Team Principals or the FIA);

Most importantly, Michelin said it has consulted its partner teams over these proposals, and stated the changes could be introduced from as early as 2005.

Twelve months down the line, everyone seems to have forgotten this all was Michelin's idea to begin with...

Perhaps the fact that the FIA gets all the blame from the teams and the fans has more to do with appearance than substance. Symptomatically, it's hard to find someone who isn't fond, genuinely, of Pierre Dupasquier; it's even harder to find someone who likes Max Mosley.

Dupasquier's company may have screwed up, but the fans feel it was Mosley's organisation that screwed them at Indy. This misconception cannot go unnoticed by a man as intelligent and as savvy as Max. Sometimes, it's not enough to be right. And if Max Mosley really wants to listen to the fans, as he stated a week ago, then this is a time when he should pay attention closely.

The message could not be made more clear.

devilmaster
06-23-05, 01:40 PM
Wow.

Claiming you are 'right' because someone with a similar opinion wrote an article.

How O'Gorman of you. :gomer:

Dirty Sanchez
06-23-05, 01:44 PM
Wow.

Claiming you are 'right' because someone with a similar opinion wrote an article.

How O'Gorman of you. :gomer:that might pass for a personal attack in Canada but we'll let that slide :gomer:tard.

lots of facts in that article and elsewhere that seem to be ignored, forgotten and/or ommitted by the "show" fans. but hey, everyone likes a good hatewagon. let's see how the FIA hatewagon rolls when the wheels fall off though. I think you just suffered a few punctures (pardon the pun) :rofl:

Gnam
06-23-05, 01:51 PM
Perhaps the FIA has a different plan in mind for the hurting French company, and perhaps the governing body quite rightly concluded that the responsibility for the Indy boycott lays squarely at the teams' doorstep. After all, Michelin did the responsible thing, which was to inform its partners that the tyres are not safe. But Michelin never prevented the teams from following the regulations on how to withdraw from the race, if at all. Hi Bob_up
Same guy?

Dirty Sanchez
06-23-05, 01:52 PM
haha... edited :laugh:

devilmaster
06-23-05, 02:18 PM
that might pass for a personal attack in Canada but we'll let that slide :gomer:tard.

lots of facts in that article and elsewhere that seem to be ignored, forgotten and/or ommitted by the "show" fans. but hey, everyone likes a good hatewagon. let's see how the FIA hatewagon rolls when the wheels fall off though. I think you just suffered a few punctures (pardon the pun) :rofl:

I haven't suffered anything. I'm not disagreeing with your opinion or the article's opinion. In fact, i'm happy you posted this article. It adds more info to the whole story.

And my first point still stands. Claiming you are 'right' by linking an article which shares your viewpoint is :gomer:.

RichK
06-23-05, 02:26 PM
Well, thank heavens the FIA didn't. There's a reason why we follow Formula One, and watching a charade should not be it.

So what is this reason "we" follow Formula One? Rigid rule-following? :rolleyes: I may be a "show fan", but it beats being a "rule fan" any day.

The FIA is ultimately responsible for the greatest spectacle in F1 last week. They could have put on The Dreaded SHOW, and dealt with infractions on Monday.

Dirty Sanchez
06-23-05, 02:31 PM
I don't think I claimed anything... but since you brought it up again. yeah, I'm totally right :laugh:

you wanna know what I find is :gomer:? posting articles without offering any kind of opinion or commentary. but hey, free country and all that.

wanna know what else is :gomer:? forming opinions based on fantasy and standing by them in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary. but again... free country and all.

post on, brah... can't wait to get the 411 from TSN :thumbup:

devilmaster
06-23-05, 02:34 PM
you wanna know what I find is gomer? posting articles without offering any kind of opinion or commentary. but hey, free country and all that.

wanna know what else is gomer? forming opinions based on fantasy and standing by them in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary. but again... free country and all.

post on, brah... can't wait to get the 411 from TSN :thumbup:

:rofl: Well its www.tsn.ca good sports news site. Hope ya like it :thumbup:

cameraman
06-23-05, 03:13 PM
you wanna know what I find is :gomer:? posting articles without offering any kind of opinion or commentary.

Yeah, information without the bull**** spouting off.
Who would want that :rolleyes:

Dirty Sanchez
06-23-05, 03:16 PM
my bad, I thought this was a discussion forum...

peace,,,, in ,,,,,, reporting :gomer:

cameraman
06-23-05, 03:22 PM
my bad, I thought this was a discussion forum...

peace,,,, in ,,,,,, reporting :gomer:

Well, it is my opinion that your requirement that every single post must contain some form of editorial comment is a load of crap. Happy now?

Dirty Sanchez
06-23-05, 03:25 PM
now you're getting it... sorta...




btw, wanna know what else is :gomer:? quoting the post immediately before your post :laugh:

oh yeah, I'm guilty of that too ;)

Methanolandbrats
06-23-05, 04:17 PM
Good article :thumbup:

Dr. Corkski
06-23-05, 04:21 PM
Innernet journos should just stick to stealing rumors from message boards and talk about how ugly American drivers are. :gomer:

Andrew Longman
06-23-05, 06:31 PM
Two different issues

Who's to blame for creating the situation? Michelin. No one is denying that they showed up with a substandard tire.

Who's to blame for how the situation was handled? Very debatable that Michelin could have done more. Contrary to the posted article, statements elsewhere suggest that Michelin and the race engineers DID do a lot to overcome the problem. Its also been said that everyone ruled out slowing on T13 because the speed differential between cars would be very dangerous. We can debate that, but that's what they claim.

Show fans versus rules fans. That's a great distinction and people can claim to be either, but guess what? Almost all of the 120,000 fans at the track and the millions around the world would have preferred they bend the rules a bit.

More to the point, the entire sport was embarrassed. Only a tiny fraction care about the politics and most are deeply turned off by the unseemly display. Its pretty hard to get excited about a race if crap that has nothing to do with the cars or drivers determines whether a car will race let alone win.

Millions of fans and potential fans in NA just threw up their hands and said these goofballs are hopeless, just as they tired of watching IRL/CARTs messy divorce.

At least by Stoddard's account, most of the principles there understood this. They would have preferred to take actions that would minimize the damage Michelin's screw up would do to the sport. How Michelin would be punished or even how the teams would be punished for compromising F1's purity at such an important event, that could have been dealt with on Monday.

Meanwhile the priority issue on Sunday was to get through this mess. Instead, as the author said, "At Indianapolis, politics and business were taken to the track. The drivers were pawns in a political game, and the spectators were the herd of predators, unleashed at the FIA."

But the suggestions of the authors that the fans would have been satisfied by an opportunity to tough the cars or speak with Briatorri is laughable. 120,000 would have said "shut up and race". We can wish for purity but it won't matter if no one is watching.

trish
06-23-05, 06:38 PM
He's from England. He may as well be from another planet.

Dirty Sanchez
06-23-05, 06:48 PM
she... oops :gomer:

trish
06-23-05, 06:56 PM
I didn't read the article and that name is hardly gender specific.

cameraman
06-23-05, 07:05 PM
I didn't read the article and that name is hardly gender specific.

Actually it is quite gender specific if you know Hebrew...

Gnam
06-23-05, 07:07 PM
At least by Stoddard's account, most of the principles there understood this. They would have preferred to take actions that would minimize the damage Michelin's screw up would do to the sport.:
Well, Stoddard's statements have to be taken with a grain of salt. Although he ran on Sunday, he has no love for the FIA and sympathizes with the 7 Michelin teams. Together they are in CYA mode. They claim the problem was really a safety issue, not a poor equipment problem, to show how virtuous and responsible they are. Then, because they care "deeply" about the fans and the sport, they offer to take a risk and run anyway if only the FIA could please meet them halfway and install a chicane. But no, the mean ole' FIA and Mad Max only care about rules. No one likes rules.

What a bunch of crap.

I don't think there was a clean way through this mess. The 7 teams say the FIA made the situation worse, and their way was better. Too bad. The FIA is there to make decisions, and the teams are there to follow them.

cameraman
06-23-05, 07:13 PM
If they had put the chicane in and the race awarded no points towards the championship there would be the same complaints being posted saying the race was a farce etc. Everyone would be complaining that they did not see a real race, just a glorified test session.

Once the tires were determined to be defective, the race was screwed...

eiregosod
06-23-05, 07:22 PM
Michelin & their teams withdrew from the race. The Bridgestone teams still had to fight over the points. Its only a small point, however Albers of Minardi qualified ahead of karthakein the midland driver. Karthakein overtook Albers sometime during the race. If there was no race then that outcome would have not been reached.

oddlycalm
06-23-05, 07:25 PM
according to an unnamed source talking to Italian magazine Autosprint Well that's certainly a much more reliable source than the people that have actually put their names to their accounts of the meeting, eh Goren...? :laugh:

Should be interesting to see what happens at the World Motor Sport Council next week... Lets see Max, how many points do McLaren and Renault need to be docked in order for Ferrari to win the constructors title...? :D

Predictions? BAR excluded for the duration? Ferrari picks up enough ground to win the constructors title? Michelin excused for cause? Seven teams succeed from F1 immediately to be replaced by IRL teams? :gomer:

oc

Gnam
06-23-05, 07:49 PM
If they take points away from the teams, will they also take them away from the drivers? If so, will the teams be able to choose how many points come from each driver?

Could Renault say, "Here take all Giancarlo's points, he's not using them."?

eiregosod
06-23-05, 07:54 PM
An interesting point brought up was the fact that the technical directors weren't there hammering out a solution?

if one team decided that they could make adjustments and then subsequently race. there's no doubt that every other team would fold and ensure that they had cars on to race with. I dont think any of the GPWC cartel were going to force this issue. We know what happened to Sauber as they were bought out by BMW and red Bull they could have broke ranks. makes ya wonder why Williams didnt beak ranks too......

Dr. Corkski
06-23-05, 07:59 PM
He's from England. He may as well be from another planet.She's from Israel. :gomer:

Gnam
06-23-05, 08:01 PM
By Biranit Goren, England
Guess she moved.

Dr. Corkski
06-23-05, 08:07 PM
Guess she moved.Probably so. But she ain't your typical Brit journo.

cart7
06-23-05, 08:10 PM
So the answer was to still not run the race but instead, let everyone down to the paddock for group shots with Flavio and Kimi?? :gomer:

Uh, I'd pass and settle for any kind of race that involved all 20 cars going around the track for 70 some odd laps.

FIA and the teams were responsible for coming to some sort of resolution that put a race of some kind on for the fans. That's what they were there for, not a Bridgestone tire test. :saywhat:

Ankf00
06-23-05, 08:17 PM
This misconception cannot go unnoticed by a man as intelligent and as savvy as Max.

if the person really belives that then the entire article must be bunk. :rolleyes:

max is as intelligent as a miniature collie.

Dr. Corkski
06-23-05, 08:29 PM
FIA and the teams were responsible for coming to some sort of resolution that put a race of some kind on for the fans. That's what they were there for, not a Bridgestone tire test. :saywhat:FIA had perfectly safe and viable solutions. Michelin teams didn't want all the negative publicity fall upon themselves and rejected all the solutions that didn't penalize Bridgestone as well. Trulli's qualifying fuel load made it pretty clear that there was intention to not race.

RichK
06-23-05, 08:33 PM
FIA had perfectly safe and viable solutions.

None of their solutions would have resulted in a good race for the fans.



Michelin teams didn't want all the negative publicity fall upon themselves and rejected all the solutions that didn't penalize Bridgestone as well. Trulli's qualifying fuel load made it pretty clear that there was intention to not race.

Trulli's team has an ex-Michelin chief who likely knew what was coming. Besides that, do you really think Michelin avoided negative publicity with this outcome?

Dr. Corkski
06-23-05, 08:46 PM
None of their solutions would have resulted in a good race for the fans.Which is not the FIA's concern, they are there to enforce the rules. Their solutions would have allowed 20 cars on track, it would be Michelin teams' fault that they couldn't bring the equipment to compete for positions 1-6. You don't start allowing Jordan or Minardi to break the rules just for the sake of a better show. I don't recall there being positive reactions when NASCAR or the crapwagon league bent the rules for the sake of the "show".


Trulli's team has an ex-Michelin chief who likely knew what was coming. Besides that, do you really think Michelin avoided negative publicity with this outcome?Perhaps not, but there are plenty of people that are buying their "safety" ******** and are willing to pin the blame on FIA for this. There are even people blaming Ferrari for daring to show up more prepared than the other teams for once this year. Certainly if the Michelin teams hadn't acted like a bunch of cowards they would have finished miles behind the Bridgestone teams and been the receipient of the bulk of the negative publicity. As it stands their cowardice took the whole sport down.

Ankf00
06-23-05, 09:30 PM
Which is not the FIA's concern, they are there to enforce the rules. Their solutions would have allowed 20 cars on track, it would be Michelin teams' fault that they couldn't bring the equipment to compete for positions 1-6. You don't start allowing Jordan or Minardi to break the rules just for the sake of a better show. I don't recall there being positive reactions when NASCAR or the crapwagon league bent the rules for the sake of the "show".

Perhaps not, but there are plenty of people that are buying their "safety" ******** and are willing to pin the blame on FIA for this. There are even people blaming Ferrari for daring to show up more prepared than the other teams for once this year. Certainly if the Michelin teams hadn't acted like a bunch of cowards they would have finished miles behind the Bridgestone teams and been the receipient of the bulk of the negative publicity. As it stands their cowardice took the whole sport down.

and allowing michelin teams to race with a mandated speed limit and being black flagged if they violate that IS a proper race? :saywhat:

Dr. Corkski
06-23-05, 09:50 PM
and allowing michelin teams to race with a mandated speed limit and being black flagged if they violate that IS a proper race? :saywhat:That's a ridiculous idea, no one even suggested anything close to that, not even the FIA.

No speed limit was necessary, unless the Michelin teams were going to use the pitlane (where there would have been a speed limit) instead of taking T13. They were free to go as fast as their equipment allowed them to. Go over the limits of your equipment, face the consequences. These are supposed to be the top drivers in the world, they should know how to control their speeds where necessary. The fact that they were unwilling to pay for their own incompetence is not an excuse to bend the rules for them. If their equipment was only good enough for 7th at best, that's their problem, not the FIA's.

RichK
06-24-05, 12:01 PM
Which is not the FIA's concern, they are there to enforce the rules.

At what cost? The cost of the USGP? Whether they realize it or not, the fans indirectly pay their salaries. I'd like to know many executives from HP, Marlboro, BMW-USA, Toyota-USA, Honda-USA, etc. were sitting in luxury suites watchin the FIAsco. The price was too high for F1's leadership to be so rigid. They could've heavily penalized the Michelin runners, but still put on a proper race.

They make the rules as well as enforce them.




As it stands their cowardice took the whole sport down.

IMO, the FIA could have and should have made a race happen for the good of the sport.

Insomniac
06-24-05, 12:38 PM
FIA had perfectly safe and viable solutions. Michelin teams didn't want all the negative publicity fall upon themselves and rejected all the solutions that didn't penalize Bridgestone as well. Trulli's qualifying fuel load made it pretty clear that there was intention to not race.

Not to mention they rejected the idea that if they did erect a chicane that they drive 3 practice laps through it so the drivers aren't hitting it at speed blind the first time because they didn't have enough fuel for that.

Insomniac
06-24-05, 12:41 PM
None of their solutions would have resulted in a good race for the fans.

And none of their's would have resulted in a fair race for the Bridgestone teams. The fans would have seen at least 14 cars competing for 7th and 8th (they may've been competing for more since no one knows how slow they needed to go and could've kept up with Minardi/Jordan anyway.

Insomniac
06-24-05, 12:43 PM
That's a ridiculous idea, no one even suggested anything close to that, not even the FIA.

The FIA did suggest it because Michelin asked how they could control the driver's speed. Michelin said they couldn't force them to slow down and instead had to refuse to let them race. The FIA said they could put up a speed trap for the Michelin teams.

Insomniac
06-24-05, 12:46 PM
At what cost? The cost of the USGP? Whether they realize it or not, the fans indirectly pay their salaries. I'd like to know many executives from HP, Marlboro, BMW-USA, Toyota-USA, Honda-USA, etc. were sitting in luxury suites watchin the FIAsco. The price was too high for F1's leadership to be so rigid. They could've heavily penalized the Michelin runners, but still put on a proper race.

They make the rules as well as enforce them.

IMO, the FIA could have and should have made a race happen for the good of the sport.

Marlboro didn't have any sponsorship on display. ;)

The FIA did try to make a race happen. they just weren't willing to capitulate to the terms that Michelin wanted. Everyone wanted the FIA and Bridgestone to compromise, but no one wanted Michelin to compromise.

RichK
06-24-05, 01:01 PM
Everyone wanted the FIA and Bridgestone to compromise, but no one wanted Michelin to compromise.

Yes, I agree with this.

However, the options given by the FIA were either dangerous or ludicrous.

Dangerous: Michelin teams running slower on the fastest turn of the track.

Ludicrous: Michelin teams running through the pit lane, or pitting every 9 laps (with no guarantee that on Lap 9, a Michelin might blow and kill people). This would not be considered a "race" by the fans & sponsors at the race, which is my main concern.

Dr. Corkski
06-24-05, 04:17 PM
Yes, I agree with this.

However, the options given by the FIA were either dangerous or ludicrous.

Dangerous: Michelin teams running slower on the fastest turn of the track.

Ludicrous: Michelin teams running through the pit lane, or pitting every 9 laps (with no guarantee that on Lap 9, a Michelin might blow and kill people). This would not be considered a "race" by the fans & sponsors at the race, which is my main concern.Ludicrous: Michelin not bringing tires that would even last 10 laps, then expect the rule making body to compromise everyone, including teams that brought tires that would last. Bridgestone sacrificed some performance to ensure that they brought a tire that lasts. The FIA's main concern was to come up with a solution that would ONLY penalize the runners that weren't prepared. I have yet to see anyone propose anything better than what the FIA proposed.

This isn't NASCAR. :thumdown:

racer2c
06-24-05, 04:22 PM
Ludicrous: Michelin not bringing tires that would even last 10 laps, then expect the rule making body to compromise everyone, including teams that brought tires that would last. Bridgestone sacrificed some performance to ensure that they brought a tire that lasts. The FIA's main concern was to come up with a solution that would ONLY penalize the runners that weren't prepared. I have yet to see anyone propose anything better than what the FIA proposed.

This isn't NASCAR. :thumdown:

What was wrong with my idea of lining the track with firetanker trucks, wetting down the track and putting them all on wets? :D

Instant level playing field! :)

Dr. Corkski
06-24-05, 04:36 PM
What was wrong with my idea of lining the track with firetanker trucks, wetting down the track and putting them all on wets? :D

Instant level playing field! :)That's what you think. But every time there has been a wet race at Indy Schumacher and Ferrari came out on top. Can't have that, because I hear fans don't want to see that either. :gomer:

coolhand
06-24-05, 04:42 PM
Bridgestone has always been stronger in the wet.

if its raining my money is on MS.

RichK
06-24-05, 05:12 PM
Ludicrous: Michelin not bringing tires that would even last 10 laps, then expect the rule making body to compromise everyone, including teams that brought tires that would last. Bridgestone sacrificed some performance to ensure that they brought a tire that lasts. The FIA's main concern was to come up with a solution that would ONLY penalize the runners that weren't prepared. I have yet to see anyone propose anything better than what the FIA proposed.

This isn't NASCAR. :thumdown:

Well, you changed my "ludicrous" definition of a bad race for the fans into blaming Michelin. I blame Michelin too! It's obviously their fault, and nobody disputes that.

My proposal that I believe is better than FIA's proposal: Give all points to the Bridgestone teams. Run the race with a chicane. If Michelin teams object to running a race for no points, they lose all points gained thus far in 2005.

Fans get a real race, Bridgestone teams get max points, and Max doesn't have to fabricate a "Q&A". :D

Methanolandbrats
06-24-05, 05:19 PM
2/3 of the field showed without tires. How the hell are they supposed to race. Screw the chicane and penalizing Bridgestone. Jeezus, it's F1 not some local autocross where you cone off a pothole. With the non-points and chicane it would have just been a bunch of cars driving around, not a race. People would have still bitched and it would have endangered people for nothing.

RichK
06-24-05, 06:11 PM
2/3 of the field showed without tires. How the hell are they supposed to race. Screw the chicane and penalizing Bridgestone. Jeezus, it's F1 not some local autocross where you cone off a pothole.

Yeah, I guess that's where I differ from the majority. When >100,000 people are sitting & staring at the world's "pinnacle of motorsport", I think they should run the best race they can with all the cars.

Dr. Corkski
06-24-05, 06:13 PM
My proposal that I believe is better than FIA's proposal: Give all points to the Bridgestone teams. Run the race with a chicane. If Michelin teams object to running a race for no points, they lose all points gained thus far in 2005.

Fans get a real race, Bridgestone teams get max points, and Max doesn't have to fabricate a "Q&A". :DIt wouldn't be a real race. The Michelin teams would be racing for nothing. It would just be a bigger test session. How are you going to decide which Bridgestone runners get what points? What if a Michelin runner, say, McLaren's #2 driver, takes out a Bridgestone runner? Since the chicane would be untested, what would happen if Bridgestone cars run into problems because of the chicane and can't finish? The end result is that you have 14 cars out there testing with nothing to race for and only 6 cars racing.

Dr. Corkski
06-24-05, 06:14 PM
Yeah, I guess that's where I differ from the majority. When >100,000 people are sitting & staring at the world's "pinnacle of motorsport", I think they should run the best race they can with all the cars.In that case, why not just give everyone Ferraris or McLarens for the sake of a good show? Where do you draw the line?

RichK
06-24-05, 06:16 PM
In that case, why not just give everyone Ferraris or McLarens for the sake of a good show? Where do you draw the line?

The line is drawn by the harsh penalties. Something like this should just about kill championship hopes, IMO.

RichK
06-24-05, 06:19 PM
It wouldn't be a real race. The Michelin teams would be racing for nothing. It would just be a bigger test session. How are you going to decide which Bridgestone runners get what points? What if a Michelin runner, say, McLaren's #2 driver, takes out a Bridgestone runner? Since the chicane would be untested, what would happen if Bridgestone cars run into problems because of the chicane and can't finish? The end result is that you have 14 cars out there testing with nothing to race for and only 6 cars racing.

The Bridgestone guys would be racing for the top 6 positions in points. All the other stuff you mention brings up all sorts of questions, but I'm proposing the best decision to get cars racing & penalize the Michelin teams.

Ankf00
06-24-05, 07:42 PM
That's a ridiculous idea, no one even suggested anything close to that, not even the FIA.



Max said as much in his little Q&A session.

there's a huge difference between taking your equipment as fast as it can go then losing grip vs. suffering equipment failure, wiping out does not involve unexpected failure, to the contrary, the drivers know if they're going too fast to hold traction in the corner, that's why they usually stay on the track, racing on uncertified tires doesnt leave anything predictable in the equation and leads to unexpected tire failure, there's nothing remotely comparable in your analogy other than the end result of *crash*

Insomniac
06-24-05, 08:24 PM
Yes, I agree with this.

However, the options given by the FIA were either dangerous or ludicrous.

Dangerous: Michelin teams running slower on the fastest turn of the track.

Ludicrous: Michelin teams running through the pit lane, or pitting every 9 laps (with no guarantee that on Lap 9, a Michelin might blow and kill people). This would not be considered a "race" by the fans & sponsors at the race, which is my main concern.

I don't know about the danger, it may've been a while in F1, but they do know how to pass each other. ;)

You don't think erecting a chicane last minute and making the drivers go through it at speed for the first time is ludicrous?

How about holding a race with no points?

A race where only Bridgestone cars get points? How is that a race still?

Insomniac
06-24-05, 08:26 PM
What was wrong with my idea of lining the track with firetanker trucks, wetting down the track and putting them all on wets? :D

Instant level playing field! :)

Assuming those Michelin tires were good enough to go more than 10 laps. ;)

RichK
06-24-05, 08:35 PM
I don't know about the danger, it may've been a while in F1, but they do know how to pass each other. ;)

You don't think erecting a chicane last minute and making the drivers go through it at speed for the first time is ludicrous?

How about holding a race with no points?

A race where only Bridgestone cars get points? How is that a race still?

No, I think that the FIA could've mandated a special practice session (which would screw up fuel strategies - so give everyone XX liters) to get the drivers used to the chicane. They're pros, they can figure out a chicane in 5 laps.

Re: A race with no points.... Why not? Give the points to the Bridgestone runners in their finishing positions. IMO, that's 1000X better than what we witnessed last Sunday.

It's still a race because the drivers would still be racing. Maybe I'm naive, but I believe that each driver and team out there would still want to beat the other guys, regardless of points. Although they are F1 drivers, I assume they are still racers at heart.

cart7
06-24-05, 08:57 PM
I don't know about the danger, it may've been a while in F1, but they do know how to pass each other. ;)

You don't think erecting a chicane last minute and making the drivers go through it at speed for the first time is ludicrous?

How about holding a race with no points?

A race where only Bridgestone cars get points? How is that a race still?

Only 6 cars were eligible for points, those were the cars that had the tyres on them that came to race, the rest were SOL.

As for the chicane, I thought these were supposed to be the best drivers in the world? If a chicane added at the last minute with a few practice laps to get used to it is gonna create that much of a problem maybe they could've pulled the MIPS cars out to finish fleshing out the grid. I'm betting Special Ed could probably figure out how to circumvent a chicane placed in front of him on the track.......

well, I may be pushing it using Ed as an example. :gomer:

Dr. Corkski
06-24-05, 09:05 PM
As for the chicane, I thought these were supposed to be the best drivers in the world?Well they came up with chicane idea because it was supposedly beyond the physical capabilities of 14 of those drivers to not go flatout at T13. :laugh:

Rob
06-24-05, 09:19 PM
A race where only Bridgestone cars get points? How is that a race still?
Back in the olden days they raced for race victories, not points. ;)

Insomniac
06-25-05, 10:54 AM
No, I think that the FIA could've mandated a special practice session (which would screw up fuel strategies - so give everyone XX liters) to get the drivers used to the chicane. They're pros, they can figure out a chicane in 5 laps.

Re: A race with no points.... Why not? Give the points to the Bridgestone runners in their finishing positions. IMO, that's 1000X better than what we witnessed last Sunday.

It's still a race because the drivers would still be racing. Maybe I'm naive, but I believe that each driver and team out there would still want to beat the other guys, regardless of points. Although they are F1 drivers, I assume they are still racers at heart.

I agree with the addition of fuel idea, that is a good one. I agree they can figure out a chicane, but it won't quite be the same as a real practice since they won't be able to find the edge without too much risk. Or do the simulations. But there are other things like the aero package, gear ratios, etc. Presumably they would all be in the same boat.

On a side note, has there ever been an event where they reconfigured the course prior to a race? I know they've added chicanes during a race weekend but I seem to recall it happening before the Saturday stuff happened.

I think if anything, all the drivers out there proved they do what their teams tell them to do. If the Michelin teams are racing for no points, why wouldn't they just run a glorified test as well? Take time on the pit stops, look at the tires just as the Bridgestone teams did. Why would the Bridgestone teams do any differently? They can finish 15-20th and get 1-6 points. It would still be a farce, just with 20 cars instead on 6. People would be complaining after that as well.

Insomniac
06-25-05, 11:01 AM
Only 6 cars were eligible for points, those were the cars that had the tyres on them that came to race, the rest were SOL.

As for the chicane, I thought these were supposed to be the best drivers in the world? If a chicane added at the last minute with a few practice laps to get used to it is gonna create that much of a problem maybe they could've pulled the MIPS cars out to finish fleshing out the grid. I'm betting Special Ed could probably figure out how to circumvent a chicane placed in front of him on the track.......

well, I may be pushing it using Ed as an example. :gomer:

I'm not saying they couldn't figure it out, but presumably, if all cars are racing for real (that's the whole point of this discussion, to get a real race) they are going to want to go as fast as possible. I'm sure they can estimate a relative speed and get through it fine, but if you can get through it 5 MPH faster, you could pass someone easily going into turn 1. So someone is bound to push way too hard because they weren't give the proper test time to figure out how hard to push. The faster you figure it out during the race, the better. I don't see how that is less dangerous than Michelin cars taking 13 slower, but you know, the solution everyone wants is for the Bridgestone teams to go slower.

Insomniac
06-25-05, 11:02 AM
Back in the olden days they raced for race victories, not points. ;)

Hehe...if they only had 300-400 $million budgets back in the old days. They don't know what they were missing!