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View Full Version : "the exclusion of Michelin"????



cameraman
06-21-05, 06:10 PM
Mosley must be insane...

We have not seen the letter from FIA President Max Mosley to Michelin but apparently it suggests that the outcome of this could be the exclusion of Michelin from the World Championship, which would leave seven teams with no tyres for future races.
The madness continues (http://www.grandprix.com/ns/ns15080.html)

devilmaster
06-21-05, 06:15 PM
This is the big showdown which will probably determine what the future of F1 looks like.....

Just like IRL/CART, GrandAm/ALMS, NHL/NHLPA - its all about the money and who gets it.

dando
06-21-05, 06:16 PM
Jeebus! :eek:


The alternative is for the companies involved to begin to quit the F1 scene - which is quite possible now - which would be the start of an even bigger disaster for the sport.
-Kevin

dando
06-21-05, 06:18 PM
This is the big showdown which will probably determine what the future of F1 looks like.....

Just like IRL/CART, GrandAm/ALMS, NHL/NHLPA - its all about the money and who gets it.
Amend that to control, and I w/you agree 100%. FTG's play hasn't made him one thin looney (or a dime in US terms) :D, but he still continues to pursue his farcicle Vision.

-Kevin

FRANKY
06-21-05, 06:23 PM
Hockey/F-1 fans will have even more free time on their hands, as F-1 comes to a screaming halt.

Rogue Leader
06-21-05, 06:45 PM
If Mosley pulls that crap he needs to be executed on sight. Not just for the fans, but all the people who will lose their jobs over his "principles".

devilmaster
06-21-05, 06:49 PM
Amend that to control, and I w/you agree 100%. FTG's play hasn't made him one thin looney (or a dime in US terms) :D, but he still continues to pursue his farcicle Vision.

-Kevin

Kev - control and money are literally the same thing. Why is bernie the boss? Cause he holds the rights to the TV package and therefore the big monies from it.

FTG no doubt was looking at how much money CART in its heyday was making - and I submit he wanted a bigger chunk of that. If you have control and wield it properly, you have the money.

To the fans its a sport. To the people running it - its all about money, and who gets the biggest share of the pot.

JohnHKart
06-21-05, 06:49 PM
As I've said before, as time goes on it seems like Mosley is as nuts as his traitor socialist parents were.

John

RichK
06-21-05, 07:02 PM
From the article:

"As most of the cars are designed specifically for Michelin tyres this would mean that cars could not be run because of safety issues."

That seems to be a stretch. The cars may be uncompetitive on Bridgestones, but unsafe?

eiregosod
06-21-05, 07:13 PM
Kev - control and money are literally the same thing. Why is bernie the boss? Cause he holds the rights to the TV package and therefore the big monies from it..

Bernie used to pay the FIA something like $2m* per year for the commercial rights to f1. bernie in turn made tens of millions in the Tv deals etc...bernie has the power, but someone decided that he should have f1 ;)

If the FIA kick Michelin out, thus rendering the rest of the season void, then kiss f1 goodbye.

to the FIA/GPWC: splits damage sports. there's no reason to suggest why it might be different in this case

Mike Kellner
06-21-05, 07:19 PM
What if the Michelin teams want the FIA to exclude them, so they can walk and start their own series? This would provide a great rationale, and allow them to claim it is all the FIA's fault.

mk

dando
06-21-05, 07:28 PM
What if the Michelin teams want the FIA to exclude them, so they can walk and start their own series? This would provide a great rationale, and allow them to claim it is all the FIA's fault.

mk
Yup. I still think there is an underlying motivation to the debacle this past weekend. Despite M's statement affirming its desire to participate in F1. What a MFG says and does are two separate realities...see FHonda and C^RT circa 2002. This is simply a means to an end pure and simple. Set the wayback machine to 1994....

-Kevin

dando
06-21-05, 07:33 PM
Kev - control and money are literally the same thing. Why is bernie the boss? Cause he holds the rights to the TV package and therefore the big monies from it.

FTG no doubt was looking at how much money CART in its heyday was making - and I submit he wanted a bigger chunk of that. If you have control and wield it properly, you have the money.

To the fans its a sport. To the people running it - its all about money, and who gets the biggest share of the pot.
Yes and no...FTG stood to make far more with a seat on the BoD of C^RT. He wanted absolute control over the sport. Was Hitler's vision about $$$? No....altho the ****'s did a damn fine job of plundering Europe and Russia. It was about power and control over people.

-Kevin

cameraman
06-21-05, 07:33 PM
From the article:

"As most of the cars are designed specifically for Michelin tyres this would mean that cars could not be run because of safety issues."

That seems to be a stretch. The cars may be uncompetitive on Bridgestones, but unsafe?

Could be. The "give" of the tires is a huge factor in the suspension. It seems the tires are different enough that it would require major modifications to the rest of the suspension in order to change tires. And it would take a ton of testing to even begin to get it right.

It would kill the season and probably F1 at the same time.

Maybe that is what they want....
:shakehead

devilmaster
06-21-05, 07:38 PM
What if the Michelin teams want the FIA to exclude them, so they can walk and start their own series? This would provide a great rationale, and allow them to claim it is all the FIA's fault.

mk

This is highly possible - F1 with sole tire supplier bridgestone and ferrari for sure, and a strong possibility in Midland/Jordan (if you believe Stoddart saying that Jordan was supposed to also peel into the pits and didn't.) On the GPWC side you have the 7 teams, manufacturers and tyre supplier michelin.... Thats how it stands right now. The meeting will tell them and us what will happen.

The closer we get to the end of the concorde agreement and the start of the GPWC, the more likely teams will refuse to play Bernie and Max's way. I think it was very telling, down on the grid on Sunday. Cameras picked up a very agitated and angry Bernie talking to a few principals including Stoddart and i believe Red Bull's boss.

IF the 7 teams remain unified (something I won't bet on either way), the FIA had better watch out. What if a whole bunch of teams decide to stay out of more races? Sure, they'll be sued, but not before F1 is made a mockery of.

I think the most telling comment came from Peter Windsor. He talked about how Bernie got right into the faces of the 7 teams and said 'You WILL go out on that track' (or something to that effect) and they did not blink.

Derek Daly talked about the last time a holdout happened like this. It was in 82, the race where Didier Peroni passed Villeneuve defying team orders. (also GV's last race). Only 6 cars took to the track that weekend also. The mastermind behind that protest? Bernie. Ironic, is it not?

The future of F1 as we know it could be decided in the next few weeks. Hang on to your hollyhocks ;) :gomer:

Racing Truth
06-21-05, 07:39 PM
Behold teh stupid! :gomer:

TrueBrit
06-21-05, 07:51 PM
I must confess that this would be the most stupid, in a downward-spiralling series of monumentally stupid actions on the part of Max 'Brownshirt' Mosley.

I was amazed that all of the Michelin teams acted in unison on Sunday, and I think that Mr. Mosley had better think long and hard before pulling that gun out of his holster. I have no doubt now, after seeing the solidarity displayed by the GPWC teams, that if Michelin were excluded that the F-1 season would in fact be dead right there and then.

There is no way that the likes of Mercedes, Renault, BMW and Toyota would be prepared to continue the season on tyres they have no technical knowledge of, and especially tyres that were specifically designed to be tailor made for Ferrari.

Perhaps Max was rat-arsed when he watched the "race" on the telly from home on Sunday night and thought that it was a damned fine show...either that or he has officially gone completely stark-raving mad....

devilmaster
06-21-05, 07:51 PM
He wanted absolute control over the sport.

Am i saying he didn't want control? No. He has a napoleonic complex about him.


Was Hitler's vision about $$$? No....altho the ****'s did a damn fine job of plundering Europe and Russia.

and this has what to do with sports in general and splits in racing in particular???
Does FTG lure champcar fans into a gas chamber by saying they can watch a CC race and then kill them?!? see how ludicrous your comment about Hitler and my comment about FTG acting like Hitler sound when we're just talking about racing? Apples and Oranges


It was about power and control over people.

And those in power and control and wield it properly make the money. I'm not saying control is not an issue. But don't discount one without the other.

dando
06-21-05, 08:00 PM
and this has what to do with sports in general and splits in racing in particular???
Does FTG lure champcar fans into a gas chamber by saying they can watch a CC race and then kill them?!? see how ludicrous your comment about Hitler and my comment about FTG acting like Hitler sound when we're just talking about racing? Apples and Oranges

:shakehead

Obviously this is an extreme example, Steve, but you can see my point. Peace.

EDIT: you brought Napoleon into this discussion. ;) :p

-Kevin

Gnam
06-21-05, 08:25 PM
Anyone ever play chicken?

They both better back the **** down.

Methanolandbrats
06-21-05, 08:38 PM
The one tire rule was the beginning of this. Michelin and Michelin teams took it to it's logical conclusion by pushing the envelope and not testing. The obvious solution it to relax the tire restrictions, require a durable backup tire, fine the teams and Michelin and send the money to FTG so he can refund ticket prices. That would patch everything up, save the season and make everyone happy. Probably make too much sense, so it has no chance of happening. If the USGP gets axed because of this I am flying to Paris to kick Max in the nutz. :mad:

dando
06-21-05, 08:50 PM
Anyone ever play chicken?

They both better back the **** down.
War Games, anyone? DEFCON 3... :shakehead

-Kevin

rjohnson999
06-21-05, 09:09 PM
Yes, potentially unsafe. Cars are designed around the tires. Change the tires and you need to change the design. Don't change the design and you will likely have mismatched camber gain/roll center issues. These can and will produce catastrophic failures.


From the article:

"As most of the cars are designed specifically for Michelin tyres this would mean that cars could not be run because of safety issues."

That seems to be a stretch. The cars may be uncompetitive on Bridgestones, but unsafe?

Napoleon
06-21-05, 09:23 PM
There are so many things I want to say in response to various things in this thread, and will later, but had a comment that I had to post on the below. I admit that I know little of the split issues facing F1 but:


What if the Michelin teams want the FIA to exclude them, so they can walk and start their own series?

No its something that out of the blue happened so I do not buy this theory, BUT there is the flip to this. Sometimes you pick the fight because you know it is coming so when an chance comes to do it on your own terms you do it.

Maybe BE sees it coming so figures this is a way to join the battle, when the teams would be screwed if they had to sit out the season, instead of waiting until they did it on their own schedule.

Now the rebels, are forced to join the battle, or back down in a way which will destroy their movement. How many can PO their sponsors in the middle of the year?

BE may put them in a position to either "hang together, or hang apart".

Methanolandbrats
06-21-05, 09:32 PM
The Michelin Teams cannot sit out the season. They are huge companies with many employees and commercial obligations. They will pay the fines, suck it up and continue as they always have.

Rus'L
06-21-05, 10:24 PM
Derek Daly talked about the last time a holdout happened like this. It was in 82, the race where Didier Peroni passed Villeneuve defying team orders. (also GV's last race). Only 6 cars took to the track that weekend also. The mastermind behind that protest? Bernie. Ironic, is it not?

This is something that very few people are remembering or bringing up (or just don't know).

Bernie was the teams.

Bernie founded the "union" of teams.

Bernie did all this first.

George Orwell would be very proud of F1...

Rus'L
06-21-05, 10:27 PM
Maybe BE sees it coming so figures this is a way to join the battle, when the teams would be screwed if they had to sit out the season, instead of waiting until they did it on their own schedule.

Now the rebels, are forced to join the battle, or back down in a way which will destroy their movement. How many can PO their sponsors in the middle of the year?

BE may put them in a position to either "hang together, or hang apart".

This is similar to what I was thinking from a different post in this thread.

It was said often on Sunday that Bernie stared the teams down, but this time the teams stared back and didn't blink.

Now, the FIA has the opportunity to stare them down again. This time they may be thinking that the teams will not be able to stare them back due to the massive ramifications of not racing for the rest of the season (like someone else said, they are huge companies with many employees with lots of bills to pay if sponsors pull their money back).

So, the question is, who's going to call first...

Rogue Leader
06-21-05, 10:52 PM
The Michelin Teams cannot sit out the season. They are huge companies with many employees and commercial obligations. They will pay the fines, suck it up and continue as they always have.

Exactly!

NismoZ
06-21-05, 11:04 PM
If they were trying to make Formula One more exciting, I'd say they've succeeded! Beats a parade any day!

TrueBrit
06-21-05, 11:17 PM
The Michelin Teams cannot sit out the season. They are huge companies with many employees and commercial obligations. They will pay the fines, suck it up and continue as they always have.

I will bet you pint of your favourite British falling-down medicine that if the FIA excludes Michelin the season is over.

You have to come to Chicago to collect it if you win though.

Methanolandbrats
06-21-05, 11:23 PM
I will bet you pint of your favourite British falling-down medicine that if the FIA excludes Michelin the season is over.

You have to come to Chicago to collect it if you win though. They won't exclude Michelin.....Max just started babbling before his medication kicked in. The fines will be HUGE however. And I only drink German Beer ;)

TrueBrit
06-21-05, 11:28 PM
Fair enough, I will buy you a pint of a Teutonic Interpretation of beer, whilst I savour a pint of the proper British stuff and you can wax lyrical about how you were right and I was wrong.

Now then, what do I get when I am proven right?

Methanolandbrats
06-21-05, 11:34 PM
Fair enough, I will buy you a pint of a Teutonic Interpretation of beer, whilst I savour a pint of the proper British stuff and you can wax lyrical about how you were right and I was wrong.

Now then, what do I get when I am proven right?I will ship a box of your favorite ale to your house. :D

TrueBrit
06-22-05, 12:20 AM
I will ship a box of your favorite ale to your house. :D

In that case you are ON mate!!! :thumbup:

Mike Kellner
06-22-05, 01:03 AM
I only drink German Beer

Fair enough, I will buy you a pint of a Teutonic Interpretation of beer, whilst I savour a pint of the proper British stuff

Woa there. We have enough warfare going on. We don't need a beer war as well. I have tried both at least once, and wouldn't turn down either. :laugh:

mk

chop456
06-22-05, 01:37 AM
Fair enough, I will buy you a pint of a Teutonic Interpretation of beer, whilst I savour a pint of the proper British stuff and you can wax lyrical about how you were right and I was wrong.

Now then, what do I get when I am proven right?

What happened to Elephant and Castle, you two? It's a block away from my office and I'd be happy to moderate the discussion while both of you buy me beer. :D


The way this situation is being treated almost makes me wish that the GPWC pulls it off. Good chance Max will have kicked off by then, though.

Whatever happened to the talk of Bernie taking over Max's job, anyway?

Gnam
06-22-05, 02:19 AM
They won't exclude Michelin.....The fines will be HUGE however.
15mil split eight ways = 1.875 million (1.539mil euro's) ea.

What's the biggest fine in F1 history?

trauma1
06-22-05, 08:05 AM
this is where the GPWC talk is going to increase, ,it's all about control, just think if jordan and minardi had the ball to park thier cars also, , the war picked up this past weekend, and i really can't see bernie and max coming out of this smelling like a rose, i see fines, but if they are huge bernies and mas are screwed and the season in real trouble.

TrueBrit
06-22-05, 09:47 AM
What happened to Elephant and Castle, you two? It's a block away from my office and I'd be happy to moderate the discussion while both of you buy me beer. :D


The way this situation is being treated almost makes me wish that the GPWC pulls it off. Good chance Max will have kicked off by then, though.

Whatever happened to the talk of Bernie taking over Max's job, anyway?

Elephant and Castle is fine...I didn't know you were that close to it...

COOL!!!! :thumbup: