View Full Version : Honda Talking with KK
Interesting comments here:
http://www.speedtv.com/articles/auto/indycar/17068/
scanman
05-22-05, 11:15 AM
""Honda is clearly concerned about open wheel racing and their position," said Eidswick, who met with George last month to discuss the plight of open wheel racing. "But he also made it clear the IRL is their choice."
Clarke said Honda had "no interest" in returning to Champ Car, where it captured six consecutive CART titles (1996-2001) before moving to the IRL full-time in 2003.
Why unify ??? :thumdown: :shakehead
My take on Eidswick's comment is that Honda wants to continue running at Indy - but they're open to running in ChampCar too.
My suspicion is that they're pushing for two series with the same specs - and they'll dictate the schedule by sending their factory teams to the races they think are worth keeping.
My take on Eidswick's comment is that Honda wants to continue running at Indy - but they're open to running in ChampCar too.
My suspicion is that they're pushing for two series with the same specs - and they'll dictate the schedule by sending their factory teams to the races they think are worth keeping.
I simply cannot fathom Fonda continuing to spend $100mm per for little or no ROI.
-Kevin
... My suspicion is that they're pushing for two series with the same specs - and they'll dictate the schedule by sending their factory teams to the races they think are worth keeping.
All the more reason to say "screw Honda"! Honda is part of the problem, not part of the solution.
fourrunner
05-22-05, 11:54 AM
All the more reason to say "screw Honda"! Honda is part of the problem, not part of the solution.
Absolutely ... They still want things their way
Champ Car can obviously operate without Toyota & Honda, and Champ Car can still draw crowds without Indy ( While the IRL cannot draw crowds EXCEPT for Indy RACE DAY, but even that's in question anymore)
What's amusing is that for all the supposed business acumen the Engine manufacturers are purported to have, they cannot see the forest for the trees in regards to who the problem is ( Tony George & themselves)
Again their idea of reconciliation is for Champ Car to absorb into the IRL ...
Champ Car has made all the effort they need to to get the two sides together...Let Honda do what it wants ... they are insignificant now!
What is interesting is that Bridgestone/Firestone hasn't ever really involved themselves in the same sort of dealmaking. They're in a good position to do just that.
Poor Honda. They've bought half a billion dollars worth of "who cares?" all over a temper tantrum.
Rocketdoc
05-22-05, 02:38 PM
Poor Honda. They've bought half a billion dollars worth of "who cares?" all over a temper tantrum.
Succinct and correct.
DagoFast
05-22-05, 03:00 PM
What is interesting is that Bridgestone/Firestone hasn't ever really involved themselves in the same sort of dealmaking. They're in a good position to do just that.
Rumor was they tried that a year or two ago....
The number of people that have tried and failed to get ftg to "unify" is gonna need a wall the size of the Vietnam memorial to list them all.
TravelGal
05-22-05, 03:01 PM
Succinct and correct.
Yes, and let's remember that the temper tantrum came from CART. And their investment pays off in the cars on the street. There's no doubt that they want to win races for ego's sake but the money is spent to improve that little Civic you see driving down the trail in Topeka.
what's a Honda?
I mean, other than OGorman's dream car...
Rocketdoc
05-22-05, 03:09 PM
I have difficulty, after reading the various attempts at co-mingling Champ Car and the IRL, by some pretty important people, who should understand that it's not the engine specs, chassis configuration, or even the distribution of venues that is keeping open wheel racing from recovering its former position of near prominence in American Racing.
It's Tony George.
He began as a cancer to open wheeled racing, and he has metastasized into the single most decisive factor in why the fan base is so fragmented.
First, no matter what the IRL sycophants might have anyone believe, Champ Cart (formally CART) was ascendant and growing in world stature and growing its new-fan base prior to "the Idiot Grandson" began his historic quest to bring open wheeled racing back to its former and rightful place, under the thumb of the Hulman-George yoke.
The malignant Tony George, in a fit of paranoia, created a scenario, probably fed my the giant "boil", A. J. Foyt, that the car owners (CART) had achieved too much power and influence, even though they were the people who were risking the most capital, were conspiring holding the scared bricks hostage.
Clearly, the man had/has a very weak intelligence quotient (not too many marbles, and those he may have, have flat spots on them).
The CART owners knew the prominence and importance of the Indy 500 in their continued growth and success, but in their interests, and those of OTHER TRACK OWNERS AND PROMOTERS, they knew that the sharing of "fame and importance" had to be distributed in more than one track.
The uninhibited growth of the tumor, Tony George, has brought us to where we may be witnessing the death, or at least, the total irrelevance of open wheeled racing in America.
So all the King’s horses and all the King’s men, are wasting their collective time and influence, on a limited intellect, power hungry “Inheritor”, who should have been charged with the stewardship of a national resource, but cannot string five words together in a coherent manner.
It’s a damn shame, but we are now witness to the destruction of professional open wheel racing in America.
Have a nice day.
Yes, and let's remember that the temper tantrum came from CART. I don't understand that conclusion. Whether or not you agree with the moves that CART made, I don't think you can characterize any of them as a "temper tantrum". I'm also not clear on how Honda's efforts to snuff CART out by paying millions of dollars to former CART owners have benefited your average Civic in any way.
TravelGal
05-22-05, 03:26 PM
Boss, no point in going over spilt milk. Especially on race day. As with everything in life, it all depends upon your point of view. Certain things we'll all agree on; certain things we won't.
RaceGrrl
05-22-05, 03:27 PM
Yeah, I guess Chevy using Cosworth engines really helps them develop the Chevrolet Cobalt.
Honda races with Ilmor engines which contributes nothing toward the development of the Civic.
I don't understand that conclusion. Whether or not you agree with the moves that CART made, I don't think you can characterize any of them as a "temper tantrum". I'm also not clear on how Honda's efforts to snuff CART out by paying millions of dollars to former CART owners have benefited your average Civic in any way.
It hasn't. Nothing the yenwhores do with their borrowed technology (as Ms. Boss so eloquently stated) does anything to enhance their product line. And the way the backstabbing bastards act likely doesn't do much for sales either.
To recap, here's all I need to know about Robert Clarke.
MoNtegi, April 2002. (Spelling courtesy of BiF#)
"We have no interest in competing in the IRL" ~ Bob Clarke
Carb Day, May 2002
"We are proud to announce that we have joined this sham of a lEEEg, starting next year. We have been working since last summer with Ilmor to develop a lump that smells funny and sounds like s**t" ~Bob Clarke
Toronto, July 2002.
"We aren't, and we won't actively seek current Champ Car teams to defect to the lesser lEEEEg." ~ Bob Clarke.
Any questions? This creep makes Saddam look like a stand up guy who was misunderstood. :flame:
I don't understand that conclusion. Whether or not you agree with the moves that CART made, I don't think you can characterize any of them as a "temper tantrum". I'm also not clear on how Honda's efforts to snuff CART out by paying millions of dollars to former CART owners have benefited your average Civic in any way.
I'm not sure if HPD is included with the same programs as HRC and the F1 squad, but if they are, then those engineers are rotated into manufacturing and design after the racing gig... and in that case, yes, that does help them make a better civic.
again, that's only if the HPD engineers rotate through like the other Honda engineers, I would guess if they did they'd be sent to the R&D plant in Ohio seieng as they actually operate in English over there :gomer:
Jag_Warrior
05-22-05, 04:46 PM
I had a meeting after Motegi with my bosses about what Honda could do, from our point of view, to see what we could do about putting open wheel racing back together," said Clarke. I was asked personally to get involved so I've been meeting with people.
Translation: My bosses aren't happy. They sent me on a point man mission. I better at least make it look like I'm trying.
For whatever reason, the fan base for open wheel racing is very small and there are not enough people to sustain two separate series.
Translation: Too bad Craftsman Truck is out of the question - they get higher ratings and total viewership on Speed TV than we get on ESPN. Our pickup truck is OK for suburbanites, who want to pretend they're "ranchers". But even we can't make an OHV V6 that will run with V8's.
"I'm afraid we'll be the only engine manufacturer involved in this thing by 2007," said Clarke. "And that's not what Honda wants. We want competition."
Translation: It would truly suck if I have to give up future restricted stock and all my other perks. I know Toyota is gone and I know that rumor about Penske bringing Porsche in is fantasy. Son of a ... Time to work on the resume!
I don't understand that conclusion. Whether or not you agree with the moves that CART made, I don't think you can characterize any of them as a "temper tantrum". I'm also not clear on how Honda's efforts to snuff CART out by paying millions of dollars to former CART owners have benefited your average Civic in any way.
It made that Civic cost more since Honda is getting zero for its investment - which is simply going into its costs.
I won't buy a Honda or a Toyota - period. When Honda, in particular, sets out to destroy CART, the nicest thing that can happen is that Honda gets destroyed (it won't but it wouldn't bother me if it did).
If I didn't "hate" Honda, I'd have a Honda van now. It is the only van that can be towed four down behind a motorhome. My preference is to tow a van behind our 39 ft diesel pusher and would be towing a Honda now if they weren't such jerks (Clark in particular). He says he wants to make it clear that the IRL is their series of choice - well, goody for him- I hope he chokes on it. They are wasting $100 million plus every year and getting absolutely nothing.
Some clown on SpeedTV's forums thinks CCWS has nothing to bring to the table in a merger. Ha, it is TG that really has nothing. In fact, the scruffy remains of his I500 will just keep shrinking until he has a facility and nothing more. What TG forgot in this entire battle is that he has to get US - you and me. He got the engine manufacturers away from CART, he got some of the teams - but they DID NOT get us. Unless they do - they lose. They end up with a huge increase in costs and only bums in the seats and eyes on the tv sets will pay for those costs - and they got neither.
OH, if I see another full course yellow in this race I'm going to scream.
oddlycalm
05-22-05, 05:33 PM
TG forgot in this entire battle is that he has to get US - you and me. He got the engine manufacturers away from CART, he got some of the teams - but they DID NOT get us. Unless they do - they lose. They end up with a huge increase in costs and only bums in the seats and eyes on the tv sets will pay for those costs - and they got neither. Bingo. Without the fan base and butts in the seats they have nothing.
BTW, Honda's quality rating continued to slide this year. When you get your clock cleaned by GM on the JD Powers survey results, you need to take a hard look in the mirror. :D JD Powers results (http://www.freep.com/money/autonews/quality19e_20050519.htm)
As I've said for several years now, this is not the same company it was when Mr. Honda was alive. Whether you look at it's 2 and 4 wheel racing programs or it's road cars, Honda isn't what it once was. They are sitting out a 2 race ban for cheating in F1, Rossi is stomping them in MotoGP on his Yamaha and they are invisible in the EARL in the US. Brilliant job of it. :shakehead
oc
Jag_Warrior
05-22-05, 05:38 PM
Some clown on SpeedTV's forums thinks CCWS has nothing to bring to the table in a merger.
Was that the same genius who said he liked the IRL cause it had Honda, Toyota, Chevrolet and Cosworth? Plus IRL cars go 240 miles per hour.
I think it's BiF posting under another name.
Hot Rod Otis
05-22-05, 06:09 PM
Rocketdoc said it as well as it can be said. :thumbup: :thumbup:
coolhand
05-22-05, 06:19 PM
Bingo. Without the fan base and butts in the seats they have nothing.
BTW, Honda's quality rating continued to slide this year. When you get your clock cleaned by GM on the JD Powers survey results, you need to take a hard look in the mirror. :D JD Powers results (http://www.freep.com/money/autonews/quality19e_20050519.htm)
As I've said for several years now, this is not the same company it was when Mr. Honda was alive. Whether you look at it's 2 and 4 wheel racing programs or it's road cars, Honda isn't what it once was. They are sitting out a 2 race ban for cheating in F1, Rossi is stomping them in MotoGP on his Yamaha and they are invisible in the EARL in the US. Brilliant job of it. :shakehead
oc
i have not looked at the big picture but your right, Honda is getting stomped on all fronts. :rofl:
Was that the same genius who said he liked the IRL cause it had Honda, Toyota, Chevrolet and Cosworth? Plus IRL cars go 240 miles per hour.
I think it's BiF posting under another name.
Oh that wasn't BIF. I know BIF personally. HE'd NevEa sAy AnYTinG liKe daT.
Lizzerd
05-23-05, 12:02 AM
Oh that wasn't BIF. I know BIF personally. HE'd NevEa sAy AnYTinG liKe daT.
James Robert? Is that you?
Yeah, "the uninhibited growth of the tumor"...I really liked that. Can't we work the word "pustule" in there somewhere, too? Good one, RD.
Rocketdoc
05-23-05, 02:05 PM
Yeah, "the uninhibited growth of the tumor"...I really liked that. Can't we work the word "pustule" in there somewhere, too? Good one, RD.
I guess I could have gotten more "graphic", but I had just eaten lunch when I wrote it, and it's risky when I write about the pustulated, furuncled, progressively abcessed, grossly boil ridden, mofo cokehead....
Better?
It’s a damn shame, but we are now witness to the destruction of professional open wheel racing in America.
Article:
"For whatever reason, the fan base for open wheel racing is very small and there are not enough people to sustain two separate series. They must come together.
"Honda feels that the very existence of open wheel racing in this country is at risk. And if things continue as they are, both will ultimately fail."
Some think it would be better to go down the tubes than work out an agreement. I think they should find a common chassis and engine and agree not to race on the same weekends. They would weed out the worst tracks and crossover at the best tracks. The fans would decide, by ratings and attendance.
It would "save" open wheel racing from extinction, wouldn't it?
To recap, here's all I need to know about Robert Clarke.
MoNtegi, April 2002. (Spelling courtesy of BiF#)
"We have no interest in competing in the IRL" ~ Bob Clarke
Carb Day, May 2002
"We are proud to announce that we have joined this sham of a lEEEg, starting next year. We have been working since last summer with Ilmor to develop a lump that smells funny and sounds like s**t" ~Bob Clarke
Toronto, July 2002.
"We aren't, and we won't actively seek current Champ Car teams to defect to the lesser lEEEEg." ~ Bob Clarke.
Any questions? This creep makes Saddam look like a stand up guy who was misunderstood. :flame:
Post of the week :thumbup: A two faced muppet for sure.
Nothing fives minutes in a empty room with a sock full of nickels wouldn't cure.......
Besides with popoff gate and the BAR debacle who needs them.........Sochorio is doing three sixties in his grave.:shakehead
Article:
"For whatever reason, the fan base for open wheel racing is very small and there are not enough people to sustain two separate series. They must come together.
"Honda feels that the very existence of open wheel racing in this country is at risk. And if things continue as they are, both will ultimately fail."
Some think it would be better to go down the tubes than work out an agreement. I think they should find a common chassis and engine and agree not to race on the same weekends. They would weed out the worst tracks and crossover at the best tracks. The fans would decide, by ratings and attendance.
It would "save" open wheel racing from extinction, wouldn't it?
F that, we offered a common engine, we attempted a common chassis.
F them.
They're getting pwn3d soon 'nuff.
I wonder if Clarke knew that KK had LBGP when they met today? :D
Certainly would put a totally different spin on the 'discussion' considering that many think Barry Green is just a front for Honda.
Wonder when we'll hear about today's talks?
Article:
Some think it would be better to go down the tubes than work out an agreement. I think they should find a common chassis and engine and agree not to race on the same weekends. They would weed out the worst tracks and crossover at the best tracks. The fans would decide, by ratings and attendance.
It would "save" open wheel racing from extinction, wouldn't it?
No,sorry. No way.
All this talk about a "reunion", "re-unification", "unified series" is just crockodile tears from someone who lost tons of cash to TG and the IRL. :thumdown:
I'm pretty sure that Honda and Toyota thought thier move to EARL would be the kill-shot for Champcars. It didn't work and now they want another piece of the action.
Think about it this way:
If you had a roomate that trashed your house before he set it on fire, would you want him to move into your new place? :confused:
James Robert? Is that you?
?????????????????????? Nope.
Hard Driver
05-23-05, 10:46 PM
Sounds to me like the conversation was more like, Honda is loosing interest in the IRL and will pull our Yen unless you do what we want.
TG is a stubborn arse who will say bye bye Honda before he is willing to admit that the IRL is a failure and shut it down.
Methanolandbrats
05-23-05, 11:06 PM
Looks like the IRL will be club racing with Menard Stockblock engines and zero fans.
Champcar will be Cosworth Turbo Racing "events" with fans in urban venues.
The Japs will go to cabs.
That's the next couple years.......after that, who the hell knows. I don't think things could suck more than they do now, but it's possible.
racer2c
05-23-05, 11:13 PM
I wonder if Clarke knew that KK had LBGP when they met today? :D
Certainly would put a totally different spin on the 'discussion' considering that many think Barry Green is just a front for Honda.
Wonder when we'll hear about today's talks?
Good point. And with Toyota's association...hmm.
oddlycalm
05-23-05, 11:56 PM
Looks like the IRL will be club racing with Menard Stockblock engines and zero fans.
Champcar will be Cosworth Turbo Racing "events" with fans in urban venues.
The Japs will go to cabs.
That's the next couple years.......after that, who the hell knows. I don't think things could suck more than they do now, but it's possible. Plausible. As for as maximum suckage the pre-CART years of the late 70's on the USAC Trail were right up there.
Anyway, you've got new crappers at RA and feral cat safaris to forward to, so you've got that going for you. :gomer: Or, come out here and enjoy the crowds of fishbelly white out of shape folks at the nude beachs during our 60 days of no-rain season. :p
oc
Methanolandbrats
05-24-05, 12:15 AM
Plausible. As for as maximum suckage the pre-CART years of the late 70's on the USAC Trail were right up there.
Anyway, you've got new crappers at RA and feral cat safaris to forward to, so you've got that going for you. :gomer: Or, come out here and enjoy the crowds of fishbelly white out of shape folks at the nude beachs during our 60 days of no-rain season. :p
oc Where are these beached whales, maybe I'll stock up on boner pills and go on a roady.
oddlycalm
05-24-05, 02:55 PM
Think about it this way:
If you had a roomate that trashed your house before he set it on fire, would you want him to move into your new place? :confused: Welcom to the forum Bob. Good post with a perfect analogy. :thumbup:
oc
I own a Mazda today because of Honda’s behavior in all of this, and I trust people who work at Honda about as far as I can throw them. If Honda wants to unify open wheel in North America, they can start by building an engine for Champ Car. Till then, its just talk.
FWIW, a poster on TF claims that HPD in Valencia has been building and running a few 2.65L Turbo V8 engines lately.
racer2c
05-24-05, 05:51 PM
I own a Mazda today because of Honda’s behavior in all of this, and I trust people who work at Honda about as far as I can throw them. If Honda wants to unify open wheel in North America, they can start by building an engine for Champ Car. Till then, its just talk.
I agree. Tony needs Champ Car more than Champ Car needs his race.
Jag_Warrior
05-24-05, 10:54 PM
I agree. Tony needs Champ Car more than Champ Car needs his race.
But the general public (and the majority of racing fans) doesn't need either one of them, and that's what concerns me.
These guys need to stop this scorched earth stuff before it's too late - and it almost is.
I agree. Tony needs Champ Car more than Champ Car needs his race.
Wow. Flashback to ten years ago.
racer2c
05-24-05, 11:58 PM
Wow. Flashback to ten years ago.
And that's exaclty where CART failed.
SurfaceUnits
05-26-05, 11:12 AM
Since acquiring CART, Kalkhoven has both stabilized the organization and moved to improve its vulnerable position by solidifying its engine and chassis programs. Recently, Kalkhoven talked to Honda officials about the automaker supplying engines for Champ Car starting in 2007. :eek:
http://www.signonsandiego.com/sports/20050526-9999-lz1s26merge.html
When nothing happens in these meetings, we usually here people saying "Nothing happened." Interesting that it's been quiet since Monday.
Methanolandbrats
05-26-05, 11:55 AM
I'd walk before I bought a Honda, but would'nt Honda, Cosworth and maybe another supplier competing help bring sponsors and cash flooding back to Champcar? That would be the upside.
chicanor
05-26-05, 12:05 PM
Gee, if they are able to get over the CART/IRL battle, Tony should too... and get the hell out the series and just be a track owner.
Racing Truth
05-26-05, 12:12 PM
F that, we offered a common engine, we attempted a common chassis.
F them.
They're getting pwn3d soon 'nuff.
And clearly, that will mean the imminent rise to acclaim and greatness for CCWS. :gomer:
They may get pwn3d, but IMS still isn't lacking for $$$. If he wants, he can drag this out for another decade, at which this is all irrelevent.
cameraman
05-28-05, 02:22 AM
The latest talk from Robert Clarke is in a John Oreovicz (http://sports.espn.go.com/rpm/indy2005/news/story?id=2070178) article.
"There are two sets of issues," Clarke said. "Domestic versus international and ovals versus road courses. I think they have moved together somewhat and reached some understanding, which I think is substantial. St. Pete, for example, was an eye-opener for the IRL. But the fundamentals still need to be agreed to – how it's set up and who runs it. Things like engine regulations are relatively minor."
One thing is for certain: No matter what happens, Honda's future in American racing lies squarely in the IndyCar Series.
"I was clear in stating that Honda has no interest in Champ Car by itself," Clarke said. "Our only intent is combining the two series. I believe Champ Car does have a vision, but I was quite frank in telling them that I don't think that vision aligns with Honda's.
"Clearly, progress has been made, and there is still a gulf between the two that needs to be brought together," Clarke concluded. "But if there is a will, there is a way."
Napoleon
05-28-05, 07:51 AM
"St. Pete, for example, was an eye-opener for the IRL."
If it took those morons 10 years to figure what street races bring they are even dumber then I thought.
"St. Pete, for example, was an eye-opener for the IRL."
If it took those morons 10 years to figure what street races bring they are even dumber then I thought.
Well, TG used the no street race thing as a rally cry to the USAC/Indiana mafia and got them to back him and his new fledgling series even though TG mentioned in his STar letter that he wouldn't mind a street race or 2.
I may be in the minority, but I wouldn't mind seeing the unified series running a schedule something akin to Cart circa 1999 - 2000. Almost a 50/50 split between ovals and roads/streets with Indy added. I have a feeling that's what we'll probably wind up with anyway.
Napoleon
05-28-05, 08:28 AM
Well, TG used the no street race thing as a rally cry to the USAC/Indiana mafia and got them to back him and his new fledgling series even though TG mentioned in his STar letter that he wouldn't mind a street race or 2.
I may be in the minority, but I wouldn't mind seeing the unified series running a schedule something akin to Cart circa 1999 - 2000. Almost a 50/50 split between ovals and roads/streets with Indy added. I have a feeling that's what we'll probably wind up with anyway.
I agree entirely. TG's all oval thing was an excuse for the tantrum, and if the split had not happened I think it is pretty clear we would be looking at a 50/50 split of venues because that is what makes most sense in the market.
Reading Clarke's stupid comments really makes me hope they don't do a merger deal and Honda gets a chance to suffer with no crowds and no tv audience for all their $$$. F'em is my feeling when I see that kind of arrogance.
The way he keeps saying Honda has no interest in CC just reaffirms my view that I'll likely NEVER own a Honda. I wonder if this twit realizes how many potential buyers he turns off?
Sean O'Gorman
05-28-05, 10:20 AM
I wonder if this twit realizes how many potential buyers he turns off?
My guess is not many.
Anyway, put me down for wanting the one series with a 50/50 split. However, with IRL having ISC as such an ally, and Champ Car having its fetish with pretend race tracks and races in countries with no fan base, I doubt we'd see anything close to the "ideal" schedule.
pretend race tracks and races in countries with no fan base.
Don't you think the point, besides making some money, is to GROW the fanbase? Fans in Korea or China not good enough for you? :rolleyes:
Sean O'Gorman
05-28-05, 10:52 AM
You think that there will actually be adequate television and media coverage of Champ Car to retain their interest?
FanofMario
05-28-05, 10:54 AM
We all know that Honda speaks with forked tongue, but another thorn in this mess is going to be NASCAR. They apparently are not in a hurry to see Toyota or anybody elese play in their sandbox. If Toyota stays in EARL, will Clarke still be pushing this unification thing?
From FoxSports: (Yes, Spicoli--old news...)
"However, NASCAR has listened to the concerns and delayed Toyota's advances from the truck series to Cup. NASCAR also has pressured Toyota to remain in IRL rather than moving lock, stock car and barrel to NASCAR but for different reasons -- it would deplete the strength of the IRL, which runs eight of its 17 races at International Speedway Corp. tracks, which the France family also controls."
Screw the Yen disher's and the whores they attract!
I wonder if this twit realizes how many potential buyers he turns off?
My guess is not many.
Well, there's at least one...
Hey, Mr. Clarke, I just bought a new Hyundai Elantra GT. Nice car, great deal. Any idea why I selected this car over a Honda Civic? It's really quite simple
Because you, and by association the company you represent, have no honor. (thanks, Worf)
You, and your lyin' & cheatin' bretheren in F1, should follow the ancient Japanese tradition and fall on your sword for besmirching the name of your company.
____
Gary
Winston Wolfe
05-28-05, 11:11 AM
Reading Clarke's stupid comments really makes me hope they don't do a merger deal and Honda gets a chance to suffer with no crowds and no tv audience for all their $$$. F'em is my feeling when I see that kind of arrogance.
The way he keeps saying Honda has no interest in CC just reaffirms my view that I'll likely NEVER own a Honda. I wonder if this twit realizes how many potential buyers he turns off?
Shadow - I appreciate your comments, however, here in the US, Honda has set a new yearly sales record for the last 9 consecutive years. Acura sales are equally as strong, and combined they've gone from almost 700,00 sales a year to over 1.2 million last year, just in the USA....Yeah, they have added new segments and new vehicles (Odyssey, Pilot, ELEMENT, Ridgeline, S2000, etc.) in that time, but the fact of the matter is, if you are not a passionate fan of OW racing in the US, it appears that you arent going to see Clarke's "stupid comments" and realize what "the Split" has done to the OW racing scene in North America.
The general public doesnt follow the politics of open wheel racing in America. They do know what the Indy 500 represents, or at least what is used to mean.... and if Honda wins again, what does it do for them ?
Does it sell them more cars ? they seem to be doin' just fine with or without it
And after the month of May, what does it get them? Nuthin'... see ratings and attendance.
Do they realize any ROI on their $100 million budget ? Nope...
Are they aware of the 1.0 rating and >30k butts in the seats at races ? Yup.
Clarke's comments re: CCWS are arrogant to say the least. But he has quite a track record of speaking out of both sides of his mouth, and it is embarrasing that he is "The voice" of American Honda for issues of the split and other potentially volitile matters with respect to re-unification.
Dood is a loose cannon and someone at Honda needs to shut this guy up, because his soundbites and quotes are fodder for both sides of the fence. He says whatever makes whoever happy at the time he opens his mouth. :shakehead
Believe me when I say that there are not alot of people at American Honda who share his views on the split, or the type of series that Honda has chosen to participate in... The folks I know in California followed CART, and never wanted to be in the EARL, with the exception of the Indy 500.... The whole Scott Goodyear "pace car" deal and the "Rahal can't qualify" with Honda power really left a mark.... Tom Elliott's recent retirement didnt help much, and he was a supporter of CART. And since HPD recently moved into a GIANT new building, and they have to produce some ROI.... Clarke is in charge HPD and that should be the end of his role..... certainly not "spokesman"......
Racing Truth
05-28-05, 11:58 AM
Don't you think the point, besides making some money, is to GROW the fanbase? Fans in Korea or China not good enough for you? :rolleyes:
I'm sure Beijing and Ansan will do wonders for the North American fanbase. :gomer:
If they do come to an agreement, how long before we see a road race on the indy course over the 4th of July or in September?
Racing Truth
05-28-05, 12:17 PM
If they do come to an agreement, how long before we see a road race on the indy course over the 4th of July or in September?
That would surprise me. Now, a GA endurance race would not, but another US OW race on the IMS road course would.
EDwardo
05-28-05, 12:39 PM
I see no advantage for Champcar to re admit amoral yen tossing entities that have demonstrated a penchant for cheating and an agenda that will do anything to cow and dominate. Last time around they indulged in a series of decisions that grievously wounded Champcar. The only arguement for letting them back in is money. And money is the primary power Honda uses to subvert. Champcar doesn't need Honda. Honda needs Champcar. I hope that KK and co. keep Champcar Honda free. Let those puss filled maggot infected pimp masters subvert elsewhere. Our series is doing just fine without them.
cameraman
05-28-05, 01:39 PM
I'm sure Beijing and Ansan will do wonders for the North American fanbase. :gomer:
Why do you so desperately want Champ Car to go broke?
The more money Champ Car makes running races at locations where they will actually turn a profit, the more money they will have to race at US venues that will lose money hand over fist like RA or Laguna Seca or any stupid oval that is not going to draw any better for Champ Car than it did for the f****** IRL.
Racing Truth
05-28-05, 01:58 PM
Why do you so desperately want Champ Car to go broke?
The more money Champ Car makes running races at locations where they will actually turn a profit, the more money they will have to race at US venues that will lose money hand over fist like RA or Laguna Seca or any stupid oval that is not going to draw any better for Champ Car than it did for the f****** IRL.
I'd like to believe that. Really, I would. Sadly, "logic" prevents me from doing so.
So, a couple Asian races will bring in enough $ to bring back RA and Laguna?
Sean O'Gorman
05-28-05, 02:13 PM
Why do you so desperately want Champ Car to go broke?
The more money Champ Car makes running races at locations where they will actually turn a profit, the more money they will have to race at US venues that will lose money hand over fist like RA or Laguna Seca or any stupid oval that is not going to draw any better for Champ Car than it did for the f****** IRL.
That logic makes no sense. If Champ Car can make these pretend race tracks profitable, there is no way in hell they will go back to the real tracks, it'll cut into the bottom line. They are doing this for business, not hobby, remember? Its just that some of us think it would be better business to build the series over the long term around quality tracks in one market (North America) instead of chasing the high sanction fees for events that no one wants to see.
sundaydriver2
05-28-05, 02:14 PM
keep Champcar Honda free.
That's my motto. Nice post. :thumbup:
I'd like to believe that. Really, I would. Sadly, "logic" prevents me from doing so.
So, a couple Asian races will bring in enough $ to bring back RA and Laguna?
It's not logic. It's your subjective judgement of the value of certain venues to Champ car. Otherwise you're arguing the Champ car should be run illogicially.
Here's some logic: a profitable series is much more likely to race at Road America than a dead one.
Champ car has said that they want half their races in America and there's still plenty of room on the schedule. Their policy of racing where they're actually wanted seems to be working. The whole attitude around the series is much more positive now (placefan carping aside). The annual routine of fighting to stay in a venue where the management isn't willing to fight *for* them wasn't healthy for the series and shouldn't be repeated.
Forget venues....How best will the TV audience be built ? That's what is going to make or break this series and open wheel racing in general.
cameraman
05-28-05, 02:51 PM
That logic makes no sense. If Champ Car can make these pretend race tracks profitable, there is no way in hell they will go back to the real tracks, it'll cut into the bottom line. They are doing this for business, not hobby, remember? Its just that some of us think it would be better business to build the series over the long term around quality tracks in one market (North America) instead of chasing the high sanction fees for events that no one wants to see.
In case you didn't notice the last races at RA and Laguna Seca drew less than 10,000 people each. How many million+ dollar weekend losses do you think they can afford? How many years do you plan on losing a million dollars a race of your money to make the race successful? Oh yeah, it isn't your money going down the drain now is it.
Forget venues....How best will the TV audience be built ? That's what is going to make or break this series and open wheel racing in general.There's really nothing to support for the notion that road courses get better TV ratings than street races. If you go back to days when the ratings were high enough to move the ratings needle off "test pattern", street races did as well as or better on average than road races or ovals.
Here's some logic: a profitable series is much more likely to race at Road America than a dead one.
:thumbup: BINGO!
We've barely started the second year of the new Champ Car. Korea in particular I think might end up being really important. What if it leads to sponsorship by a couple Korean companies? How big might someone like Samsung be as a team or series sponser?
KK says they have a five year plan and are on or ahead of schedule. So far they seem to be playing everything right.
"There are two sets of issues," Clarke said. "Domestic versus international and ovals versus road courses."That's not the issue. The issue is running successful events vs. butting your head against the wall trying to sell the public on a "vision" that has no basis in reality. Champ car never had a problem running successful ovals or North American road races.
"I was clear in stating that Honda has no interest in Champ Car by itself," Clarke said. "Our only intent is combining the two series. I believe Champ Car does have a vision, but I was quite frank in telling them that I don't think that vision aligns with Honda's.Let me just take a WAG here. Honda's vision has room for a race in Japan but not in South Korean or China. From what I read your boys at the home office aren't real popular in those parts lately.
The good news is that what Clarke says has nothing to do with reality. He simply says whatever best suits his agenda at the moment. Honda will pull the rug out from under George in a second if they don't like his response to their unification efforts.
Honestly if Clarke is so fond of the IRL he should just be allowed to stew in his own juices. Honda's vision of open wheel racing is all about Honda and has nothing to do with what needs to happen for the good of American open wheel racing. They understand that without a strong show of support from them, George (and by extension them) has a weak hand and Champ car has little reason to bargain. Certainly not enough reason to offer terms that might be satisfactory to George.
There's really nothing to support for the notion that road courses get better TV ratings than street races. If you go back to days when the ratings were high enough to move the ratings needle off "test pattern", street races did as well as or better on average than road races or ovals.
I wasn't thinking of street course vs road course ratings. I was considering over all series ratings. Can we expect the Koreans to become fans and tune in to the Milwaukee broadcast or any other race in years to come ? With the core fanbase dwindling, I don't see where the TV ratings are going to improve. I certainly hope I'm wrong. I know cash flow is needed now but how much are we truly paying for it in terms of domestic fans both at the track and on TV? I suppose we should look at where sponsorship opportunities are, so I expect more foreign sponsors to be announced as the series develops.
Can we expect the Koreans to become fans and tune in to the Milwaukee broadcast
There are lots of Aussies on these boards. Do you do you want to tell them that they are worthless and not appreciated?
Sean O'Gorman
05-28-05, 04:17 PM
In case you didn't notice the last races at RA and Laguna Seca drew less than 10,000 people each. How many million+ dollar weekend losses do you think they can afford? How many years do you plan on losing a million dollars a race of your money to make the race successful? Oh yeah, it isn't your money going down the drain now is it.
So instead of fixing the problems that caused the fans to leave Mid-Ohio, Laguna Seca, Road America, Michigan, Fontana, Gateway, etc., it is better to just blame the promoters and ditch them?
Eventually this series is going to have to build a fanbase if it wants to get anywhere and it is easier to do it with real race tracks vs. parking lots.
Kiwifan
05-28-05, 04:23 PM
I used to. Get up early to watch every race Live. Subscribed to Champ Car and Racer. Bought Team Gear, Books and I would hate to think how much money I've spent on flights and travel.
All of this because the first program I saw on our new SKY digital decoder (1997) was Tracy burning up Road America. Ummmm, those memories. ;)
It can be done folks. I think the Aussies, Canadians and Mexicans, sometimes love your series more than your fellow countrymen. With the greatest respect, of course.
Rusty.
Rusty is OK with me. We need more like him, no matter where they live.
So instead of fixing the problems that caused the fans to leave Mid-Ohio, Laguna Seca, Road America, Michigan, Fontana, Gateway, etc., it is better to just blame the promoters and ditch them?
Eventually this series is going to have to build a fanbase if it wants to get anywhere and it is easier to do it with real race tracks vs. parking lots.
So you believe that the best way to build a racing series is by investing in money losing events. How many marketing courses did you take? How much did you pay in tuition for them?
cameraman
05-28-05, 04:51 PM
Eventually this series is going to have to build a fanbase if it wants to get anywhere and it is easier to do it with real race tracks vs. parking lots.
The self-made billionaires who own the series seem to disagree with your business plan. Why don't you invest your billions you earned using your omnipotent business acumen and prove them wrong.
There are lots of Aussies on these boards. Do you do you want to tell them that they are worthless and not appreciated?
The Aussie race was started when CART was just about at it's strongest, competing with F1 for drivers and viewers. A deal, I believe, with the tourism folks to bring focus to the area. It's become a cornerstone of the series. Certainly a great party. No, I will not be the one telling them they are worthless because they have supported the series for years. I will not abandon them...
The series no longer has that same level of power. It's struggling for an identity. No longer do we see former WDC's running along with up and coming F1 hot shoes using Champcar as the next rung. Other than going for the quick buck to sustain the immediate future, I'm not sure what else can be done.
Jag_Warrior
05-28-05, 04:55 PM
Well, there's at least one...
Hey, Mr. Clarke, I just bought a new Hyundai Elantra GT. Nice car, great deal. Any idea why I selected this car over a Honda Civic? It's really quite simple
Because you, and by association the company you represent, have no honor. (thanks, Worf)
You, and your lyin' & cheatin' bretheren in F1, should follow the ancient Japanese tradition and fall on your sword for besmirching the name of your company.
____
Gary
Whatever the case with morals and such, I think CCWS should hitch some portion of the wagon to the fastest growing major automaker.
And that would be Hyundai. :p
http://www.detnews.com/2005/specialreport/0505/15/A01-182019.htm
This is a company on Toyota's lips and radar. This is a company willing to spend big $ to grab a share of the pie. I put a thread in Community about their billion $ investment in Alabama. http://www.offcamber.net/forums/showthread.php?t=7701 Why keep chasing the same players? With Honda or Toyota, you'd have to hire Pinkertons to keep an eye on them. If there's a company that might "date" CCWS and not create drama at every turn, I think it would be Hyundai. Before they get too popular, make a call... send some flowers... go out for coffee.
CCWS does NOT need Honda. And there's no doubt that Honda does not need CCWS. Call Hyundai. A nice car with a good job, from a good family. :)
Racing Truth
05-28-05, 04:55 PM
The self-made billionaires who own the series seem to disagree with your business plan. Why don't you invest your billions you earned using your omnipotent business acumen and prove them wrong.
So that means I'm disqualified from disagreeing?
So, lemme see if I understand this. Ansan and Beijing, if successful, will somehow attract Laguna, RA, and others like it in this country? Explain how successful races in Asia will have these tracks clamoring for a Champ Car race.
Sean O'Gorman
05-28-05, 05:02 PM
So you believe that the best way to build a racing series is by investing in money losing events. How many marketing courses did you take? How much did you pay in tuition for them?
So let me get this straight. Boring races are going to attract more fans and sponsors than entertaining races?
If NASCAR started slowly moving their races overseas to street races and all that was left in the U.S. were a few boring venues like New Hampshire and Las Vegas, do you think teh fan base would be the same size?
I used to. Get up early to watch every race Live. Subscribed to Champ Car and Racer. Bought Team Gear, Books and I would hate to think how much money I've spent on flights and travel.
All of this because the first program I saw on our new SKY digital decoder (1997) was Tracy burning up Road America. Ummmm, those memories. ;)
It can be done folks. I think the Aussies, Canadians and Mexicans, sometimes love your series more than your fellow countrymen. With the greatest respect, of course.
Rusty.
If the current schedule was in place in 97, you wouldn't have become a fan then, seeing that Tracy wouldn't be burning up RA... ;)
coolhand
05-28-05, 05:54 PM
The Aussie race was started when CART was just about at it's strongest, competing with F1 for drivers and viewers. A deal, I believe, with the tourism folks to bring focus to the area. It's become a cornerstone of the series. Certainly a great party. No, I will not be the one telling them they are worthless because they have supported the series for years. I will not abandon them...
The series no longer has that same level of power. It's struggling for an identity. No longer do we see former WDC's running along with up and coming F1 hot shoes using Champcar as the next rung. Other than going for the quick buck to sustain the immediate future, I'm not sure what else can be done.
exactly, the product we sent to Austrailia in the early 90s was a world of difference from what we are exporting today.
Notice they still carry the indy name downthere. That is the identity that this series is sorely lacking. Describe to the Koreans what Champ Car is and all you can say is that its the series that used to race at indy and that it is not the IRL. Its hard to even say that this is the best American racing series with the IRL trying to claim that title. The only way exporting Ameircan Openwheel will work is when we have a shored up base in America.
and everyone dropping the liners "are the the billionaire invester?" , those lines show you are lossing your argument. What KK and GF say in the press are what they want everyone to believe. Not what their true intentions and plans are.
racer2c
05-28-05, 05:54 PM
So let me get this straight. Boring races are going to attract more fans and sponsors than entertaining races?
If NASCAR started slowly moving their races overseas to street races and all that was left in the U.S. were a few boring venues like New Hampshire and Las Vegas, do you think teh fan base would be the same size?
which fan base? I assume you are referring to the US. ;)
coolhand
05-28-05, 05:55 PM
The self-made billionaires who own the series seem to disagree with your business plan. Why don't you invest your billions you earned using your omnipotent business acumen and prove them wrong.
what is their business plan? you seem to know it so well, tell it to us if it is so obvious.
dont be so quick to bash the person, you did not answer his ideas directly.
cameraman
05-28-05, 05:59 PM
Boring races are going to attract more fans and sponsors than entertaining races?
How do you know the Ansan race is going to be boring?
It is a 1.9 mile temporary road course. It runs through a park like Montreal and Portland. It is not a street race. It is being designed by D3 who know what they are doing yet you, in your infinite wisdom, have deemed the race to be boring, bad TV and a total failure.
Winston Wolfe
05-28-05, 06:02 PM
So let me get this straight. Boring races are going to attract more fans and sponsors than entertaining races?
If NASCAR started slowly moving their races overseas to street races and all that was left in the U.S. were a few boring venues like New Hampshire and Las Vegas, do you think teh fan base would be the same size?
Boring races, in your opinion. Boring races that are more like "events" which result in the owners making a profit, and their being new fans (with the case of Korea and other overseas ventures).
Will you watch these overseas "event\ races"?
(if it is broadcast LIVE, or on delay)
Your version of entertaining is what ? RA or M-O ??? Forgive me if my memory is foggy, but werent the last few races at these events more like "fuel economy" runs where guys in the fastest cars didnt necessarily win the race ??? Tags ??? And there were "no fans", or attendance was down ? And corporate hospitality and sponsorship was dwindling ? YEAH, sure the drivers love the track, and a few hardcore OWR fans love the track.... but why spend all the jack when their is no ROI ? Sounds like an FTG business model if you ask me !
See if this is logical. Run races overseas that are profitable, and bring new fans into the fold. Keep the other overseas races which already have a fan base and are popular (see Gold Coast Indy race). Keep other profitable and well attended races in North America (see LBGP, Toronto, Mexico et al), and maintain your fan base here. Try new places which can be events as well as races (see San Jose & Denver). "Forcing" it back to old venues such as M-O and RA, as well as any ISC owned track does not seem like a healthy alternative for the series right now.... That seems pretty logical to me.
I'm pretty sure KK and GF have plenty of logic, business acumen, finance wherewithall, and the knowledge to know what is right for the short term, the long term, and the success of the series. Making an emotional decision to return to non-profitable, poorly attended events is too EARL-like...
racer2c
05-28-05, 06:06 PM
I actually know many race fans who think any road course race is boring, no matter which continent is is located on. Go figure.
cameraman
05-28-05, 06:10 PM
what is their business plan? you seem to know it so well, tell it to us if it is so obvious.
dont be so quick to bash the person, you did not answer his ideas directly.
Their business plan is to race in Ansan Korea.
Their business plan is to race in Bejing China.
Their business plan is to race in San Jose CA.
Their business plan is to race in Edmonton AB.
Their business plan is to race in Long Beach CA.
These are the races they have added or bought. That is what I know of their business plan and I trust the people who are planning those races.
I am not the one telling them they are totally wrong for holding those races. I am not the one telling them to dump everything they are doing and run RA and Laguna Seca instead.
In case you didn't notice the last races at RA and Laguna Seca drew less than 10,000 people each. How many million+ dollar weekend losses do you think they can afford? How many years do you plan on losing a million dollars a race of your money to make the race successful? Oh yeah, it isn't your money going down the drain now is it.
That's the price they have to pay if they want to satisfy their customers. But it seems to me they are forgetting who their customers are.
Racing Truth
05-28-05, 06:53 PM
Seabass sayeth:
``It's going to take a lot to get both sides together,'' said reigning Champ Car champion Sebastien Bourdais, who will race in Sunday's Indy 500, the IRL's biggest event. ``But there's really no other options. We can't have people keep saying, 'We're fine.' Obviously, we're not. Both sides are losing a lot of money.''
Linky (http://www.comcast.net/sports/motorsports/index.jsp?cat=AUTORACING&fn=/2005/05/27/143330.html)
I post this just to point out to some that both sides need this (merge), not just IRL. Champ Car, IMHO, is indeed in a better spot than TG, but let's not fool ourselves: All is not well.
I'm sure Seabass is wrong...
coolhand
05-28-05, 07:29 PM
Their business plan is to race in Ansan Korea.
Their business plan is to race in Bejing China.
Their business plan is to race in San Jose CA.
Their business plan is to race in Edmonton AB.
Their business plan is to race in Long Beach CA.
These are the races they have added or bought. That is what I know of their business plan and I trust the people who are planning those races.
I am not the one telling them they are totally wrong for holding those races. I am not the one telling them to dump everything they are doing and run RA and Laguna Seca instead.
Noone said they are totally wrong, but their argument is that they are leaving their traditional base behind for the great unknown in the far east.
If they want to be successful here in America some of the best Road Courses have to be on the schduel. But sadly noone shows up to them. they need to figure out why.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.5 Copyright © 2024 vBulletin Solutions Inc. All rights reserved.