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Lizzerd
05-13-05, 03:02 PM
The flying cars are back.

Local radio just reported that Dana smacked the wall and Sam hit some debris and did a backflip, landing on his head.

Racing Truth
05-13-05, 03:03 PM
crap. Again. :mad: :shakehead :(

FCYTravis
05-13-05, 03:03 PM
Holy ****.

I hope and pray that Sam will walk away.

*edit* Apparently Hornish walked to the safety truck but there's no word on Paul Dana.

pchall
05-13-05, 03:04 PM
From IRL live commentary:


Yellow - Heavy rear contact in T2 by #91T Dana and by #6T Hornish Jr

#6T Hornish Jr car was upside down, but driver gets out and into safety vehicle.

pfc_m_drake
05-13-05, 03:04 PM
*edit* - pchall beat me to it.

Steve99
05-13-05, 03:08 PM
The Chitwood Thrill Show continues.


Edit: I hope no one was hurt.

Racing Truth
05-13-05, 03:08 PM
Holy ****.

I hope and pray that Sam will walk away.

*edit* Apparently Hornish walked to the safety truck but there's no word on Paul Dana.

I think, from checking TF, that there is serious concern about Dana.

Chitowncartfreak
05-13-05, 03:09 PM
I think, from checking TF, that there is serious concern about Dana.

Horrible - let's hope that this is not true and everything turns out ok.

FCYTravis
05-13-05, 03:10 PM
Report is that Dana's going to Methodist. Thoughts and prayers right now.

Chitowncartfreak
05-13-05, 03:12 PM
This is a Hemelgarn car. Remember what happened 10 years ago on lap one? They've seen enough dark days at the speedway - let's hope this is not another one.

Racing Truth
05-13-05, 03:13 PM
Report is that Dana's going to Methodist. Thoughts and prayers right now.

:( crap.

racer2c
05-13-05, 03:19 PM
As much as I hate tony George and his tantrum league, I hate it when bad accidents happen to anyone in any series. I hope all is well.

Racing Truth
05-13-05, 03:31 PM
I'm only going to comment on the Hornish aspect of this for now. Apparently, and the really scary thing, is that he was slowing down before running over the debris. Which means speed is not the issue, lousy aero is.

pchall
05-13-05, 03:34 PM
Hornish was slowing? :shakehead

Also from IRL live commentary:

Paul Dana was transported via ground to Methodist Hospital and was awake and alert.

Methanolandbrats
05-13-05, 03:41 PM
It's only May13th.......how many heavy crashes have there been? How many hospital admissions? And this is with a thin field compared to real Indy 500. This does not look good.

Racing Truth
05-13-05, 03:45 PM
Hornish was slowing? :shakehead

Quite a bit apparently.

Racing Truth
05-13-05, 03:46 PM
Still nothing on Dana. I have a very, very bad feeling here. :(

Racing Truth
05-13-05, 03:48 PM
Update: DANA AWAKE AND ALERT. Complaining of back pain.

pfc_m_drake
05-13-05, 03:49 PM
Just an add on to RT's post - they're taking Dana to Methodist Hospital for further evaluation.

FCYTravis
05-13-05, 03:49 PM
Awake and alert but "complaining of back pain."

Shock of shocks.

Lizzerd
05-13-05, 03:50 PM
I just saw a video of the crash while keeping an eye on the thunderstorm that is about to wreck my house.

The camera was head on, like long range lens from turn 3. Dana spun and backed in, Hornish was out of the frame when he hit. Sam comes around, was indeed slowing and going STRAIGHT down the track. The debris he hit looked to be about the size of a softball. Looked like he struck it with his right front wing (NOTE: NOT A WHEEL). His nose launched straight up and his car left the ground. It spun and looked like it was going to land on its nose, but it turned sideways and the first impact with the ground was with his left rear. Landed upside down and spun down the track on the roll hoop.

DagoFast
05-13-05, 03:51 PM
Whew! Now toeknee can get back to his playstation! :gomer:

Racing Truth
05-13-05, 03:52 PM
Anyone know where one can see video on this?

FRANKY
05-13-05, 03:54 PM
Anyone know where one can see video on this?

espn2

6:30 est

FRANKY
05-13-05, 03:57 PM
I think this week and next they have live from Indy that 1/2 hour.

Lizzerd
05-13-05, 03:59 PM
espn2

6:30 est

Actually, 5:30 EST, 6:30 EDT.

pchall
05-13-05, 04:04 PM
Actually, 5:30 EST, 6:30 EDT.

What's that in Standard Gomer Time? :gomer:

FRANKY
05-13-05, 04:05 PM
Yes you are right. TiVo makes you forget what show, what day, what time..

Turn7
05-13-05, 04:44 PM
http://www.wishtv.com/Global/story.asp?S=3341652&nav=0Ra6ZpwD

extramundane
05-13-05, 04:46 PM
http://www.wishtv.com/Global/story.asp?S=3341652&nav=0Ra6ZpwD

On a related note, Dana's hit:

http://www.nohvcc.org/newsletter/danacrash.jpg

Methanolandbrats
05-13-05, 04:53 PM
I'm afraid it's only a matter of time until someone clears the fence :(

jonovision_man
05-13-05, 04:54 PM
I'm afraid it's only a matter of time until someone clears the fence :(

Tony Renna. Fortunately nobody was in the stands at the time.

jono

JohnHKart
05-13-05, 05:21 PM
Actually, 5:30 EST, 6:30 EDT.

I'm totally confused now so I looked it up on Espn's site...

630PM EST/330PST....on in one hour.

John

Turn7
05-13-05, 05:29 PM
All they need to do is take a half pound of pressure out of the left side and stick a wedge in the rt rear and it'll all be good.

Racing Truth
05-13-05, 05:47 PM
Those pictures are frightening.

To clarify, 6:30 p.m. for viewers in the Eastern time zone, 5:30 Indy time.*

RacinM3
05-13-05, 05:49 PM
I am sickened by two things:

1. The potential here for many people to be killed, and the resulting effect on racing in the USA.

2. The continued criminal (yes, I said criminal) ignoring of this danger.

Those morons at TF are saying that cars have been flying for 30 years, and one of them actually used that incident in what, 1991 or 1992 where Mears hit the turn 2 wall and his car overturned as an example of this. Utter BS.

Of course someone will come on and give one example of this 15-20 years ago, completely ignoring the fact that now we can give 4 or 5 from the latest IRL-spec chassis alone.

FCYTravis
05-13-05, 05:55 PM
Yup.

If a car goes in the stands, it's game-set-match for spectator open-wheel racing in America. No insurer will cover it.

Methanolandbrats
05-13-05, 05:57 PM
Tony Renna. Fortunately nobody was in the stands at the time.

jono Renna cleared the wall and went through the fence....sorta. That's different. I have no doubt that will happen again, but the potential is there for the whole car to clear everything and land in the stands.

jonovision_man
05-13-05, 06:05 PM
Renna cleared the wall and went through the fence....sorta. That's different. I have no doubt that will happen again, but the potential is there for the whole car to clear everything and land in the stands.

Sure. I guess the point is that he was high enough above the concrete (or SAFER barrier) that the only thing between the car and where the fans are was the fence, which didn't hold up enough to protect them.

Mario got significant air when he flipped, he might have been within fence-clearing hight if he had been heading in that direction.

Any way you slice it this is STILL a big safety defficiency, and needs to be addressed. Yes, it's happenned before, but the frequency suggests something is fundamentally flawed here.

jono

cameraman
05-13-05, 06:09 PM
FTG does need to take it back to 1965.

Loose the aero completely.
Make a safe 2006 version of this.
With modern tires & bits it could easily top 200.

http://eis.net.au/~bramwell/indy65.htm

DagoFast
05-13-05, 06:16 PM
Both Mario's and Hornish's wrecks were started by very small pieces of debris. They BOTH got some serious altitude. Enough to easily clear the wall and maybe the fence.

Unlike Mears wreck from '91(?) NEITHER had any wall contact prior to flight. Hornish was slowing down (accounts say 130mph) driving straight down the backstretch.

No other race car has EVER done what these 2 crapwagons have.
If you insist there is nothing wrong with these cars, you are a complete idiot or a bald face liar.

If you are still willing to strap into one, you are a fool.

Ziggy
05-13-05, 06:25 PM
Im shocked

welcome to "the premier openwheel series" for the newbies among us.

It was just a freak accident....... wont happen again........... :gomer:

Paintergeek
05-13-05, 06:33 PM
Sam said slowed to 170. Amazing footage. Wow.

TroyM1
05-13-05, 06:44 PM
What did the IRL do after the Renna accident to lessen the flying cars? Just go down to the 3.0L engine? Was that all?

FRANKY
05-13-05, 06:46 PM
What did the IRL do after the Renna accident to lessen the flying cars? Just go down to the 3.0L engine? Was that all?

That wasn't all.

Here is Hornish.

http://www.wishtv.com/Global/story.asp?S=3341652&nav=0Ra6ZpwD

rabbit
05-13-05, 06:54 PM
Stop me if you've heard this one before:

Dana has a fractured spine and a concussion. :shakehead

Sean O'Gorman
05-13-05, 06:55 PM
Looks like getting 33 cars is going to be even harder now.

Wally
05-13-05, 07:00 PM
Stop me if you've heard this one before:

Dana has a fractured spine and a concussion. :shakehead


Is it to late for Seabass and Junky to pack up? WTF....:shakehead

Ankf00
05-13-05, 07:29 PM
the infinite stupidity of this entire enterprise is so far gone from incredulity I can't describe it any more.

DaveL
05-13-05, 07:56 PM
Stop me if you've heard this one before:

Dana has a fractured spine and a concussion. :shakehead

The wanker bought and paid for the ride. It's not a slam dunk big Ron will be able to someone in car for next week. But if he can, if he can't find a good driver stupid enough to drive his sled, he can always bad driver who is.

It's bad news for them Foyt boys and Special Ed. The one driver they might be able to outrun has been Crapwagoned. Note I said, "might".

Racing Truth
05-13-05, 08:02 PM
Stop me if you've heard this one before:

Dana has a fractured spine and a concussion. :shakehead

No problems here. Nothing more to see folks, just move along.

Get ready for chassis redesign number... oh hell, I've lost count now. Also be assured that it won't solve much.

nrc
05-13-05, 09:06 PM
No other race car has EVER done what these 2 crapwagons have. If you insist there is nothing wrong with these cars, you are a complete idiot or a bald face liar.
The idiocy is amazing Lemmings are comparing accidents where cars were launched by wheel to wheel contact to accidents where cars have launched to previously unheard of altitudes by small pieces of debris or even just from a simple spin.

It's not complicated folks. If you build a car with a bunch of barn-door size flat planes on them then if anything that creates a positive angle of attack on those planes then you'll instantly create huge amounts of lift.

Ankf00
05-13-05, 09:13 PM
well, gomers dont tend to understand the behavior of air :gomer: think they mo down with the cornhole :gomer:

JoeBob
05-13-05, 09:42 PM
Something to keep in mind -
It has become common practice for IRL teams to attempt to decrease drag by running "negative rake." In other words, they raise the front of the car in order to reduce the drag produced by the back of the car.

That is fine so long as the front wings are holding the nose down. Think about what would happen if something upset that balance.

Mike Kellner
05-13-05, 09:44 PM
I think it is more than a coincidince that Mario and Hornish took flight when their CrapWagons hit small items of debris.

My own guess is that the large amount of area when viewed from the bottom, and the far aft center of mass from the overweight motor and trasaxle, means when the nose pitches up, it has a natural tendancy to blow-over.

As has been said all along, these cars are inherently dangerous, and need to be redesigned. I really think the root of the problem with blow-overs, and stabilizing in tail first mode after a spin, is the over weight motor and tranaxle, which moves the center of mass aft of the center of pressure, which makes the cars unstable.

While the affairs of CrapWagon racing are of little concern to me, I do worry about these flying coffins because, if some IRL wanker puts a CrapWagon into a part of the stands which does have people sitting in it, it will do serious damage to Open Wheel in general.

mk

jonovision_man
05-13-05, 09:52 PM
Something to keep in mind -
It has become common practice for IRL teams to attempt to decrease drag by running "negative rake." In other words, they raise the front of the car in order to reduce the drag produced by the back of the car.

That is fine so long as the front wings are holding the nose down. Think about what would happen if something upset that balance.

I'm curious about this, someone else mentionned it too. Anybody know where I could find more details about why this works?

jono

devilmaster
05-13-05, 10:05 PM
[B]OUR
http://wishtv.static.worldnow.com/images/3341652_BG2.jpg
CARS
http://wishtv.static.worldnow.com/images/3341652_BG4.jpg
DO
http://wishtv.static.worldnow.com/images/3341652_BG5.jpg

devilmaster
05-13-05, 10:06 PM
NOT
http://wishtv.static.worldnow.com/images/3341652_BG1.jpg
FLY!
http://wishtv.static.worldnow.com/images/3341652_BG3.jpg

[/brian brainfart mode]

JT265
05-13-05, 10:06 PM
I'm curious about this, someone else mentionned it too. Anybody know where I could find more details about why this works?

jono


Simple. Introduce negative chassis rake (front higher than the rear) gets the back of the car down outta the wind and reduces drag. Also has a tendency to be unstable as hell as Sammy showed today. The other disadvantage of having he front higher than the rear is that the undertray isn't near as efficient in creating downforce.

Also, the picnic table sized main plane on the front wing as well as the leverage generated by moving the assembly 18" ahead of the front wheels gives this crapwagon better wings than a truckload of RedBull ever could.

devilmaster
05-13-05, 10:07 PM
double

manic mechanic
05-13-05, 10:08 PM
I'm curious about this, someone else mentionned it too. Anybody know where I could find more details about why this works?

jono

Ask Ank...He's the resident "rocket scientist" (not meant in a derogatory context). :thumbup:

manic

JoeBob
05-13-05, 10:12 PM
I think that because of the large rear wing, teams are running with negative rake. That puts the large, flat undertray at an angle that encourages flight.

Of course, that hurts laptimes, so they're using the front wings to keep the nose down - but just barely. Too much front wing would give them push, and also increases drag.

So, they're setting up the cars so that aerodynamics keep the cars barely glued to the track. However, when the car hits debris, one of two things happens creating lift:
1. The front wings are damaged, eliminating the downforce that was keeping the car on the ground.
2. The debris raises the front of the car higher, increasing the undertray's angle of attack to the point that it creates lift that the front wings can't negate.

devilmaster
05-13-05, 10:14 PM
if some IRL wanker puts a CrapWagon into a part of the stands which does have people sitting in it, it will do serious damage to Open Wheel in general.

mk

Someone correct me if i'm wrong - but doesn't switzerland or some european country still ban auto races because of the LeMans disaster?

JT265
05-13-05, 10:18 PM
Someone correct me if i'm wrong - but doesn't switzerland or some european country still ban auto races because of the LeMans disaster?

Switzerland does yeah. Tell the man what he;s won Johnnie. :D

devilmaster
05-13-05, 10:31 PM
Switzerland does yeah. Tell the man what he;s won Johnnie. :D

It'd better be alot of money! [shakes fist]

Jervis Tetch 1
05-13-05, 10:41 PM
Nobody can't stand Sam as much as I, but I am very relieved he's okay. I do hope he has a safe race and career thereafter. I do beleive that's his worst accident ever.

Dana should never have been in that situation. What I mean by that is he is not qualified to race those cars. He needed another year or two to hone what little talent he seemed to have to drive those crap wagons. I just hope he can get up and walk out of that hospital bed he's in right now.

pchall
05-13-05, 10:47 PM
I think it is more than a coincidince that Mario and Hornish took flight when their CrapWagons hit small items of debris.

My own guess is that the large amount of area when viewed from the bottom, and the far aft center of mass from the overweight motor and trasaxle, means when the nose pitches up, it has a natural tendancy to blow-over...

mk

I like Mike's guess. What makes the whole matter worse is what is happening with the front wing as the nose lifts.

When the nose gets up the front wing goes from an positive angle of attack that produces a lot of "lift" [only acting as "down force" on the nose moment because the wing is flying inverted]. As the nose lifts and the car continues forward the wing is now at effectively at an ever decreasing angle of attack that produces less and less "lift" [lowering the "downforce" acting on the nose moment of the car]. The higher the nose gets the less force is acting that could keep it down and that's where the air pressure on the huge bottom surface does the work that starts the car lifting as a whole, as Mike suggests. Running at negative rake (as brought up by JoeBob, et al above) would make the whole process that much easier to start.

What I would like to see is a fully tufted quarter scale IRL car model in a wind tunnel changing its attitude in the manner of Mario's and Hornish's cars. What I am beginning to suspect is that when the nose of an IRL car rotates up like that the car as a whole becomes a kind of lifting body that tries to do a loop. Hornish had slowed enough that it stalled in mid loop and came down on its nose and left front while Mario -- at 200+ -- completed his loop.

After typing all this I must admit that my aero conjecture is based on too many years as a teen trying to design and master a Fox .35 powered control-line stunter and get to the Junior Nats. :)

manic mechanic
05-13-05, 10:51 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Kellner
I think it is more than a coincidince that Mario and Hornish took flight when their CrapWagons hit small items of debris.

My own guess is that the large amount of area when viewed from the bottom, and the far aft center of mass from the overweight motor and trasaxle, means when the nose pitches up, it has a natural tendancy to blow-over.

As has been said all along, these cars are inherently dangerous, and need to be redesigned. I really think the root of the problem with blow-overs, and stabilizing in tail first mode after a spin, is the over weight motor and tranaxle, which moves the center of mass aft of the center of pressure, which makes the cars unstable.

While the affairs of CrapWagon racing are of little concern to me, I do worry about these flying coffins because, if some IRL wanker puts a CrapWagon into a part of the stands which does have people sitting in it, it will do serious damage to Open Wheel in general.

mk



Amen, Mr. Kellner.

It doesn't surprise me that safety has been compromised here...FTG has compromised everything else along the way...

"33 is just a number"...etc.

manic

manic mechanic
05-13-05, 10:52 PM
I like Mike's guess. What makes the whole matter worse is what is happening with the front wing as the nose lifts.

When the nose gets up the front wing goes from an positive angle of attack that produces a lot of "lift" [only acting as "down force" on the nose moment because the wing is flying inverted]. As the nose lifts and the car continues forward the wing is now at effectively at an ever decreasing angle of attack that produces less and less "lift" [lowering the "downforce" acting on the nose moment of the car]. The higher the nose gets the less force is acting that could keep it down and that's where the air pressure on the huge flat bottomed surface does the work that starts the car lifting as a whole, as Mike suggests.

What I would like to see is a fully tufted quarter scale IRL car model in a wind tunnel changing its attitude in the manner of Mario's and Hornish's cars. What I am beginning to suspect is that when the nose of an IRL car rotates up like that the car as a whole becomes a kind of lifting body that tries to do a loop. Hornish had slowed enough that it stalled in mid loop and came down on its nose while Mario -- at 200+ -- completed his loop.

After typing all this I must admit that my aero conjecture is based on too many years as a teen trying to design and master a Fox .35 powered control-line stunter and get to the Junior Nats. :)

It's that "angle of incidence" thing, Doc.

manic

pchall
05-13-05, 10:59 PM
It's that "angle of incidence" thing, Doc.

manic

Yup. And that's part of why I always had a problem with the inverted outside loop.

EDwardo
05-13-05, 11:03 PM
I fear for the safety of all the drivers.

I just wish Seabass and BJ weren't being exposed to all this.

Anteater
05-13-05, 11:12 PM
I'm watching the final episode of "Enterprise"; UPN just showed a clip of the Hornish flight as a trailer for the news. :eek:

What EDwardo said.

racer2c
05-14-05, 12:12 AM
"Dana was listed in good condition Friday evening at Methodist Hospital. The severity of the spinal fracture was not immediately known."

If I ever break my back (knock on wood) and they list me in 'good condition', some doctor is getting a fat lip.

DagoFast
05-14-05, 12:27 AM
"Dana was listed in good condition Friday evening at Methodist Hospital. The severity of the spinal fracture was not immediately known."


Umm, don't they have none of them Xray machines or none of them newfangled MRI machines in indyanner? Or is Henry too drunk to read the results?


More likely, Baghdad Bob is pullin down some OT. You can't just let the truth spill out all over the place! It's MAY fer crissakes! Can't have no buzzkill about fractured backs ruinin a partay. :gomer:

Peter Venkman
05-14-05, 12:35 AM
"I like Mike's guess.'

Mike is right.

Try flying an arrow backwards.

cameraman
05-14-05, 02:08 AM
Umm, don't they have none of them Xray machines or none of them newfangled MRI machines in indyanner?

It all comes down to swelling around the spinal cord or more correctly their ability to prevent or at least minimize that swelling. They will not know the full extent of the damage for a while.

Fio1
05-14-05, 02:55 AM
I wonder what Robin Miller will say about this.

Something needs to be done to these cars, I've been saying this for years. The potential for a Le Mans 1955 type accident is way too great. Once in a while a 90's Cart car got airborne, usually, while spinning backwards with bodywork damage (Jim Crawford & Pancho Carter at Indy) but nothing like what we saw today, or with Mario. It's unbelievable to think that running over a small piece of debris will launch a car like that. What will happen if two cars make slight front wheel to rear wheel contact at Texas? :shakehead

JohnHKart
05-14-05, 05:39 AM
I watched that half hour show from Indy. What a pile of junk!!!! Just absolutely no buzz or excitement about Indy....The scene is so lame and dead they had to run a top ten of most exciting pole day moments. And here's the key: Not one of the moments shown was during the crapwagon era and only one was during the IRL years....96, when Scott Brayton withdrew his car and put it on pole. I remember watching these shows at Indy ten years ago when they had meaning and excitement....It's so boooooooring now.

John

Hot Rod Otis
05-14-05, 07:44 AM
The idiocy is amazing Lemmings are comparing accidents where cars were launched by wheel to wheel contact to accidents where cars have launched to previously unheard of altitudes by small pieces of debris or even just from a simple spin.

It's not complicated folks. If you build a car with a bunch of barn-door size flat planes on them then if anything that creates a positive angle of attack on those planes then you'll instantly create huge amounts of lift.


They are rather pathetic. According to them, there's NO problem with the current spec crapwagon blowing over because hey, Pancho Carter got upside down in 1987. :rolleyes: :shakehead

I see cleanupcrew is getting the troops in line. Nothiing to see here. :rolleyes: :gomer:

jonovision_man
05-14-05, 08:07 AM
Simple. Introduce negative chassis rake (front higher than the rear) gets the back of the car down outta the wind and reduces drag. Also has a tendency to be unstable as hell as Sammy showed today. The other disadvantage of having he front higher than the rear is that the undertray isn't near as efficient in creating downforce.

Also, the picnic table sized main plane on the front wing as well as the leverage generated by moving the assembly 18" ahead of the front wheels gives this crapwagon better wings than a truckload of RedBull ever could.

Ahh, I think that paints a prett good picture for me, thanks.

jono

FanofMario
05-14-05, 11:23 AM
As usual, there was little to no comment from the Indy tv media last night as to why there are still spinal injuries to IRL drivers or that IRL cars still tend to blow over. :rolleyes:

If that amount of debri can cause a car to blowover what does that mean when there is a multiple car crash? There is just no excuse for such a flawed aero design. There is just too much risk. :mad:

racer2c
05-14-05, 12:35 PM
If the Indy media wasn't tied to Tony's hip, this would be a good time top start proclaiming the return of Champ Cars, even if it's just for safety concerns.
Crapwagons suck. They're ugly and dangerous.

oddlycalm
05-14-05, 12:50 PM
If the Indy media wasn't tied to Tony's hip, this would be a good time top start proclaiming the return of Champ Cars, even if it's just for safety concerns.
Crapwagons suck. They're ugly and dangerous. Don't forget that they also sound awful.... :D

Ironic that at some point there will be more drivers that have broken their backs in crapwagons than are on the starting grid for the average non-indy EARL event. :shakehead

oc

Mike Kellner
05-14-05, 02:09 PM
Ironic that at some point there will be more drivers that have broken their backs in crapwagons than are on the starting grid for the average non-indy EARL event.

You just don't know what Indy means. Those boys is lucky to get injured there, Heck, just being allowed to buy a ticket to Indy is a privilege. Drivers should feel lucky they ever got to drive on them Sacred Bricks. A broken back is a small price to pay.

»ò

Visit Indy, it's a killer track.

Rocketdoc
05-14-05, 05:24 PM
"What will happen if two cars make slight front wheel to rear wheel contact at Texas?"

A strange "rain of crap" in Oklahoma....

dando
05-14-05, 05:52 PM
"What will happen if two cars make slight front wheel to rear wheel contact at Texas?"

A strange "rain of crap" in Oklahoma....
Or if it happens @ night, it could be Visible from Space part II. :gomer:

-Kevin