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chop456
03-11-05, 01:17 PM
No, you may not like them equally. Choose one. No need to reply to the thread - just vote.

calculus_entropy
03-11-05, 02:27 PM
No, you may not like them equally. Choose one. No need to reply to the thread - just vote.

I choose to reply so I can post build :gomer:

downshift62
03-11-05, 02:41 PM
No contest - ALMS

The Daytona Proto's are a joke.

For some reason GrandSham likes to run underpowered cars?

It's like one of those joke questions come true. What would happen if NASCAR ran a road racing series? The sad reality is the punch line of that joke is real and taking a big wet bite out of legitimate sports car racing.

Methanolandbrats
03-11-05, 02:42 PM
Tough choice :confused:

FCYTravis
03-11-05, 02:48 PM
The sad reality is the punch line of that joke is real and taking a big wet bite out of legitimate sports car racing.
How so?

Please tell me which teams in the Grand Am would be fielding prototypes in the American Le Mans Series right now if there was no Grand Am.

Doran - maybe.

That's it. The rest of the DP teams have come up from other series or come out of the woodwork to start running sports cars again now that they can make a profit.

The GARRA is taking *nothing* away from the ALMS - maybe a Porsche 911 or two, but if taking away a Porsche 911 GT3RSR is "taking a big wet bite out of legitimate sports car racing," then "legitimate sports car racing" has much bigger problems than GARRA.

Sean O'Gorman
03-11-05, 02:50 PM
The rest of the DP teams have come up from other series or come out of the woodwork to start running sports cars again now that they can make a profit.

Or more importantly, so they can afford to have fun.

But wait, according to some of the people here, racing isn't about the competitors.

Dirty Sanchez
03-11-05, 02:58 PM
17-4 dayummm :laugh:

FCYTravis
03-11-05, 03:01 PM
Yeah, that's almost exactly the ratio of Daytona Prototypes to LMP1s... last year.

Going to be more like 24-4 this year :)

calculus_entropy
03-11-05, 03:02 PM
How so?

Please tell me which teams in the Grand Am would be fielding prototypes in the American Le Mans Series right now if there was no Grand Am.

Doran - maybe.

That's it. The rest of the DP teams have come up from other series or come out of the woodwork to start running sports cars again now that they can make a profit.

The GARRA is taking *nothing* away from the ALMS - maybe a Porsche 911 or two, but if taking away a Porsche 911 GT3RSR is "taking a big wet bite out of legitimate sports car racing," then "legitimate sports car racing" has much bigger problems than GARRA.

GrandSham is what it is...

Dumbed-down (really fugly) cars that are cheap (unlike what the earl is supposed to be). I understand why the drivers like 'em: Fairly even, skill is important.

Saying GrandSham is the premier sportscar racing in the US is like saying the earl is the premier open wheel racing. Of course, as always, it's just my opinion.

FCYTravis
03-11-05, 03:03 PM
I didn't hear anyone say it's the premier sports car racing in the U.S. Only that it's the sports-car racing series in the U.S. that teams can afford to compete in.

"Premier sports car racing" can mean different things to different people, and far be it from me to try and define it for everyone.

nrc
03-11-05, 03:04 PM
How so?

Please tell me which teams in the Grand Am would be fielding prototypes in the American Le Mans Series right now if there was no Grand Am.

That wasn't what he said. Most of those teams didn't appear out of the ether. They would be in some other form of sports car or open wheel racing if they weren't running Daytona sports racers and pretending to be in a top rung series. Some of them would be running ALMS, but not necessarily in the top class.

FCYTravis
03-11-05, 03:05 PM
Right, nrc.

And now they're in a series where they can run "top rung" cars and have fun and make money doing it - or at least not go bankrupt trying to stay on the same lap with Audi's jillion-buck supercar.

It's just too bad that you don't like what they're doing - because the competitors in the series don't give a flying you-know-what what you think of them. They're not out there to please your tastes.

They're spending their own money to have fun. Of course, you'd like to tell them where they should be spending their money, right? :rolleyes:

Hot Rod Otis
03-11-05, 03:06 PM
I'll say it again, BOTH SERIES BLOW. :thumdown: :thumdown:

ALMS & GA combined don't equal IMSA GTP in say 1990, heck they barely equal IMSA GTO/GTU in 1990.

RusH
03-11-05, 03:09 PM
The jury has spoken

nrc
03-11-05, 03:18 PM
They're spending their own money to have fun. Of course, you'd like to tell them where they should be spending their money, right? :rolleyes:

They can spend their money where they please. I am a consumer of motorsports entertainment and I'll be happy to tell anyone who cares to listen why any product in that space does or does not appeal to me.

FCYTravis
03-11-05, 03:26 PM
Great! Please feel free to express your opinion. As a provider of motorsports entertainment, I'll be happy to tell anyone who cares to listen why any product in that space does or does not appeal to the competitors. :)

calculus_entropy
03-11-05, 03:30 PM
And now they're in a series where they can run "top rung" cars

To me, "top rung" means "top step on the ladder" or "there is nothing above this step."

IMO, that is most certainly NOT the case with the DP's.

FCYTravis
03-11-05, 03:34 PM
It's the "top rung" in the Grand Am series.

Oh, and it does seem to be the "top rung" on a lot of ladders... look where the up-and-coming American sports car and formula racers are getting paying drives... yes, that's right, the Grand Am... Memo Gidley, Andy Lally, Michael McDowell, Darren Law, the Frisselles, Joey Hand, Raphael Matos, Justin Marks, Bryan Sellers, Espenlaub, Ian James, Alex Gurney... yadda, yadda, yadda. Don't forget all the big-name sports car talent... Butch Leitzinger, Andy Wallace, EFR, Kelly Collins, Bill Auberlen, Roberto Moreno, Nic Jonsson, Scott Pruett, Mad Max, Max the Axe, Wayne Taylor, Jorg Bergmeister, Terry Borcheller, Stefan Johansson, etc.

There's talent galore in the Grand Am if you cared to look. If not, well, they don't care. The drivers are having the time of their life. That's what really counts at the end of the day, you know.

Ankf00
03-11-05, 03:41 PM
I boycott this poll.

this poll smokes pole.

they both suck arse. It's just that one actually INVITES competitive racing, the other, I'm not sure what it's trying to do these days...

also, this is a cheap post, I have to catch up with pchall one of these days :D

FCYTravis
03-11-05, 03:45 PM
To me, "top rung" means "top step on the ladder" or "there is nothing above this step."
Oh, and this means then that Champ Car wouldn't be "top rung" to you either?

Turn7
03-11-05, 03:46 PM
Oh, and this means then that Champ Car wouldn't be "top rung" to you either?

U.S. based? Yes
World? No.

FCYTravis
03-11-05, 03:50 PM
OK, then with that clarified: Is DP the top rung of the Grand Am's own "ladder?" Yes. Is it the top rung in the US? That's up to your own views. If you don't think so, that's fine. But you might want to listen to the drivers...

"I did have a chance to be involved with a GT1 program (you can probably guess which one). I think the DP series has a better long term outlook for me. I'd like to make a career in sportscars and I thought this was the better way to go. The explosion in entries in DP and the fact that it is under the NASCAR umbrella, makes me think its going to be here a while. The GT1 program also was going to be using older equipment where it was very unlikely to have a shot at winning, at least in the first year. With the DP program, we should have the latest and greatest stuff to be able to compete right away."

So saith Alex Gurney...

Joelski
03-11-05, 03:59 PM
What's the cheapest "top-rung" series to run in today? NasCar. Now before all you smartasses call BS on me, level the playing field; remove R & D. Now it's pretty damn cheap, huh? Think about it: R & D on a 40 year-old design stiill runs Stock Car budgets up to ChampCar/crapwagon prices and beyond. Now, why is it cheaper? Because of the field! 40+ frakin cars, plus T-cars, plus you can build it yourself; can' do that in CCWS, EARL, ALMS, or even the tintop crapwagons.

Let's use the split for an analogy: Demand drives both supply and cost, but volume manufacturing becomes cost effective beyond a niche point and that's why prices aren't coming down in any of the smaller series.

ALMS was here first, which gives them a technological edge because there was nothing to cheapen competition until Grand Sham came along. The racing is pure and advancements are geared toward optimal lap times rather than everyman perticipation. Now enter the Grand Am; FCYtravis wants desparately to cling to the fact that it's a racing sport and that's fine, but in all truth, it was created by the France Empire to capture market share for the NasCar family of made for TV drama products. Sure, it's a cheaper way to do nearly the same thing the ALMS is accomplishing well, but it's also a way to do things with less effort; a widespread problem in this day and age.

The comparison is and always will be the same as that between Champcar, and F1, the huge distinction being there was no market in place when CART entered the scene, hence CART earned it's validity, where Grand Am never can hope to.

Racing? Sure. "Top Rung" pinnacle of the sport, greatest challenge of man and machine? I hardly think so.

FCYTravis
03-11-05, 04:06 PM
"Top Rung" pinnacle of the sport, greatest challenge of man and machine? I hardly think so.
Then we agree, because nobody said or ever will say that Grand Am is the greatest challenge of man and machine. :)

RaceGrrl
03-11-05, 04:10 PM
Great! Please feel free to express your opinion. As a provider of motorsports entertainment, I'll be happy to tell anyone who cares to listen why any product in that space does or does not appeal to the competitors. :)


Flagging ain't motorsports entertainment.

Easy
03-11-05, 04:11 PM
Most of those teams didn't appear out of the ether.


But sometimes things appear when you do ether.

calculus_entropy
03-11-05, 04:11 PM
So saith Alex Gurney...

Who I am assuming would jump out of his crapotype in a second if Forsythe wanted him to be Tracy's teammate.

Or if Champion wanted him to pilot an R8 for the season.

Just guessing, though.

IMO, any "top rung" series is a destination, not a stepping stone. CART was once a destination and there is evidence it is starting to get back to that state. Many of the names you listed are in the twilight of their careers, other's are looking to show their skills. I don't see Grand Am as a destination.

FCYTravis
03-11-05, 04:14 PM
Double

FCYTravis
03-11-05, 04:15 PM
Flagging ain't motorsports entertainment.
I haven't been just a flagger since 2003. But thanks for playing.

Oh, and it's motorsports entertainment, alright... for ourselves and the drivers :laugh:

RaceGrrl
03-11-05, 04:18 PM
The racing that you do is hobbyist racing, not motorsports entertainment of the calibre being discussed here.

FCYTravis
03-11-05, 04:18 PM
No, it's not, sorry.

See you at Mexico City in November :)

nrc
03-11-05, 04:20 PM
It's funny that even though there are supposedly no parallels between the IRL and GARRA we hear all those same old arguments about opportunity and grassroots racers.

http://www.blackhawkmotorsports.net/

Is this a team worthy of the top class at the Daytona 24 Hours or is this just Ron Hemelgarn gone road racing?

FCYTravis
03-11-05, 04:21 PM
Gosh, the 2004 SCCA Formula Atlantic National Champion - the best amateur Atlantic pilot in America - is worthy of comparison to Ron Hemelgarn? :rolleyes:

Showing your biases much?

Sean O'Gorman
03-11-05, 04:22 PM
I am a consumer of motorsports entertainment and I'll be happy to tell anyone who cares to listen why any product in that space does or does not appeal to me.

Its too bad you spend less on motorsports entertainment in one year than a Grand-Am team spends on entry fees for one race alone. I think I know whose needs are more important in this case.

Sean O'Gorman
03-11-05, 04:25 PM
It's funny that even though there are supposedly no parallels between the IRL and GARRA we hear all those same old arguments about opportunity and grassroots racers.

http://www.blackhawkmotorsports.net/

Is this a team worthy of the top class at the Daytona 24 Hours or is this just Ron Hemelgarn gone road racing?

They have two top level drivers and the budget to run a top team, so yes, they are worthy of the top class.

Or they could sit at home with their thumbs up their asses talking about how all racing sucks becuase it isn't "top-calibre purist racing" (translation: its BORING, but makes me feel sophisticated), but I know which method is more fun.

Sean O'Gorman
03-11-05, 04:28 PM
Who I am assuming would jump out of his crapotype in a second if Forsythe wanted him to be Tracy's teammate.

Or if Champion wanted him to pilot an R8 for the season.

Just guessing, though.

So where are the opportunities for him or any of the other dozens of top level drivers to run in Champ Car? Oh wait, there aren't any, because Gerry, Kevin, and Paul have no interest in running a series that is appealing to mainstream sponsorship. See now why people like me and Travis get on Champ Car's case while championing Grand-Am? We just want to see the top drivers in the fastest cars it is possible for them to run, and those cars are not Champ Cars or not LMP1s, they are Daytona Prototypes.

calculus_entropy
03-11-05, 04:29 PM
Its too bad you spend less on motorsports entertainment in one year than a Grand-Am team spends on entry fees for one race alone. I think I know whose needs are more important in this case.

I don't think I understand what you are getting at?

Are you saying we should ignore our opinions and feelings and blindly follow something because someone says I should?

Sounds like lemming-speak to me.

Ratattack
03-11-05, 04:32 PM
Damn, For a "Not Needed to Post" thread, you guys and gals are crankin'.

I myself, must vote for ALMS aso, though. Not into Grand Sham.. :D

FCYTravis
03-11-05, 04:33 PM
No problem Ratattack, to each his own :)

Joelski
03-11-05, 04:34 PM
Did somebody just compare the thinking of posters on this forum to that of a lemming biased board, <cough>*crackforum*<cough> that we don't speak of here?


:D

calculus_entropy
03-11-05, 04:36 PM
Oh wait, there aren't any, because Gerry, Kevin, and Paul have no interest in running a series that is appealing to mainstream sponsorship.

You're right. Champcar is being revived from the ashes and it is not healthy. I see improvements, though. The quality of ride-buyers is improving. This year will have more F3000 champs than F1, IIRC. 4 CART/Champcar champs.

Getting to the top in any sport is hard. Look at basketball (which I hate, but for the sake of argument). 30 teams times 12 per team = 360 of "the best in the world." Compare that to the number of players at the college level, at the high school level. See my point?

calculus_entropy
03-11-05, 04:37 PM
Did somebody just compare the thinking of posters on this forum to that of a lemming biased board, <cough>*crackforum*<cough> that we don't speak of here?


:D

Guilty as charged. Ooops. Guess I don't spend enough time here!

:)

Bob_S.
03-11-05, 04:37 PM
ALMS is weak because Grand Am was another attempt to fix something that wasn't broken.
Bottom line, ISC wanted real sports prototypes out at the Daytona 24 because they didn't have total control. Sound familiar? :thumdown:

Natty
03-11-05, 04:38 PM
Can we sponsor a team and get off camber ads on the car?


Where do I sign up??? :gomer:

FCYTravis
03-11-05, 04:38 PM
360 of "the best in the world."
Are they all really the best in the world, though? I'm sure you could find any number of players overseas who would beat some of those 360 of the NBA's "best."

Just because one series or sports league is the "top rung" doesn't mean it has a monopoly on the "best in the world." Like you said about Champ Car and F1 - the front of the Champ Car grid quite arguably is better than a good portion of the back of the F1 grid.

Easy
03-11-05, 04:39 PM
ALMS is weak because Grand Am was another attempt to fix something that wasn't broken.
Bottom line, ISC wanted real sports prototypes out at the Daytona 24 because they didn't have total control. Sound familiar? :thumdown:

I haven't check my timeline but I don't think the ALMS was ever at the Daytona 24.

calculus_entropy
03-11-05, 04:41 PM
Are they all really the best in the world, though? I'm sure you could find any number of players overseas who would beat some of those 360 of the NBA's "best."

An astute reader might guess I was acknowleding that fact by putting quotes around the "best in the world."

Apparently you missed it.

FCYTravis
03-11-05, 04:41 PM
ALMS is weak because Grand Am was another attempt to fix something that wasn't broken.
You'll have to explain to me which teams in the Grand Am would be in the ALMS right now.

Quite obviously, the IRL *stole* any number of teams right off the Champ Car grid. Ganassi, TKG, Penske, Rahole, etc.

So which Daytona Prototype teams would be in the ALMS running P1s right now if it wasn't for Grand Am?

Joelski
03-11-05, 04:42 PM
Guilty as charged. Ooops. Guess I don't spend enough time here!

:)

Your favorite camp-n-brew sucks! :wave:

FCYTravis
03-11-05, 04:43 PM
Apparently you missed it.
Yes, I missed it while trying to reinforce your point, that often the "best" are spread out. :)

Personally, I'm glad the top drivers in Champ Car are where they are. We need 'em... like Shorty :cool:

calculus_entropy
03-11-05, 04:44 PM
Your favorite camp-n-brew sucks! :wave:

Can we change your screen name to Richard Cranium?

:gomer:

FCYTravis
03-11-05, 04:47 PM
Can we sponsor a team and get off camber ads on the car?
I'll put a YFDS sticker on just for you :rofl:

Joelski
03-11-05, 04:49 PM
Can we change your screen name to Richard Cranium?

:gomer:

I know you are, but what am I? :gomer:

:runsfastbyebyenow:

cart7
03-11-05, 05:04 PM
....... No need to reply to the thread - just vote.


:laugh:

nrc
03-11-05, 05:24 PM
Its too bad you spend less on motorsports entertainment in one year than a Grand-Am team spends on entry fees for one race alone. I think I know whose needs are more important in this case.

And yet somewhere along the line if someone doesn't spend money to watch the series then it dries up an blows away. Otherwise it's just glorified club racing.

nrc
03-11-05, 05:26 PM
They have two top level drivers and the budget to run a top team, so yes, they are worthy of the top class.

Alex Gurney wasn't a top level driver in Atlantics, but he is in a Crapona Prototype?

NismoZ
03-11-05, 05:30 PM
Some of this is why I think ALMS should do all they can to feature the GT1 category (and a 2&3 as well.) Four to five LMP1s & 2s is embarrassing. The GTs would be easy to follow, understand and identify with. I think factory supported GT racing is more "real word" and would instantly build a larger fan base. I think this class has a brighter future than real OR fake "prototypes." I watched Daytona. I am impressed with the growth of the DP category, but I do NOT like those cars! It surely must be affordable and fun, though, and I really like many of those drivers...BUT, if a GA race was to go up against the ALMS with the Corvettes, Ferraris, Astons and that new crazy-ass Maser...guess which one I'd be watching? :)

Sean O'Gorman
03-11-05, 06:10 PM
And yet somewhere along the line if someone doesn't spend money to watch the series then it dries up an blows away. Otherwise it's just glorified club racing.

Maybe with Champ Car, but I'm pretty sure that Grand-Am will be fine (and would be fine even if the Frances weren't running it) at their current level.

Sean O'Gorman
03-11-05, 06:11 PM
IMO, any "top rung" series is a destination, not a stepping stone. CART was once a destination and there is evidence it is starting to get back to that state. Many of the names you listed are in the twilight of their careers, other's are looking to show their skills. I don't see Grand Am as a destination.

Champ Car isn't looked at as a destination series, yet NASCAR is, so I'm assuming that in your eyes, NASCAR is a higher level of racing than Champ Car.

Somehow I'm guessing that isn't the point you are trying to make. :laugh:

RaceGrrl
03-11-05, 06:19 PM
No, it's not, sorry.

See you at Mexico City in November :)

Pushing pixels for some Grand Am team doesn't make you a provider of "motorsports entertainment" any more than my pushing paper for a doctor makes me a provider of health care.

FCYTravis
03-11-05, 06:26 PM
I was done with all this, but if you really want to keep going, RaceGrrl, I'm game.

First of all, even as a flagger I'm a provider of motorsports entertainment. Participant. You see, your "motorsports entertainment" doesn't happen without marshals. It doesn't exist. Goes away. Fin. Done. The SCCA's volunteer road-racing official corps is what makes American road racing possible. Maybe you should talk to Jim Swintal and the rest of the folks at Champ Car and find out what they think about us. I (and the thousands of SCCA licensed marshals) provide the support that allows "motorsports entertainment" to exist. How much more would your ticket cost if every track had to hire marshals, safety workers, tow operators and operating officials at prevailing wages instead of having them volunteer? You probably wouldn't be able to afford a GA pass.

Secondly, as a member of a road racing team, I'm a provider of motorsports entertainment. You see, your "motorsports entertainment" doesn't get on track without the people behind the scenes - whether they're turning wrenches, analyzing data acquisition feeds or "pushing pixels." How long does a Champ Car drive around track without someone going over the wall to keep the thoroughbred properly fed and shod? Not very.

You can keep having a very narrow view of racing if it suits you. No skin off my back. Myself? I'll keep enjoying everything there is on hand - from SCCA Club Racing to the superb Dyson Lolas in the ALMS to the Grand Am and, of course, my personal favorite, the unsurpassed Champ Car World Series.

See you on course.

RacinM3
03-11-05, 06:31 PM
I understand why the drivers like 'em

I'm having trouble fathoming why you wouldn't like a series that even you admit the drivers like. That's funny.

I like them both. ALMS for the cars, Grand Am for the competition. Watching an Audi run away doesn't put me on the edge of my seat, but I still love to watch them run.

If you could see the racing from more of the competitors side and less from the spectator side, you may find GARRA is ok.

RacinM3
03-11-05, 06:39 PM
Pushing pixels for some Grand Am team doesn't make you a provider of "motorsports entertainment" any more than my pushing paper for a doctor makes me a provider of health care.

LOL....whatever.

Joelski
03-11-05, 06:54 PM
Talking about racing (well, some of it anyway) plus hate!

:dude:

Dirty Sanchez
03-11-05, 07:01 PM
I saw railpax waving his flags after the race at Road America. I thought he was going to fly away.

I also saw railpax hugging Racing Stud at Mid-Ohio. :gomer:

FCYTravis
03-11-05, 07:03 PM
There ya go... That's Entertainment! :rofl:

JT265
03-11-05, 07:38 PM
So where are the opportunities for him or any of the other dozens of top level drivers to run in Champ Car? Oh wait, there aren't any, because Gerry, Kevin, and Paul have no interest in running a series that is appealing to mainstream sponsorship. See now why people like me and Travis get on Champ Car's case while championing Grand-Am? We just want to see the top drivers in the fastest cars it is possible for them to run, and those cars are not Champ Cars or not LMP1s, they are Daytona Prototypes.


Alex is a decent guy, but considering that he never won squat in the minors, tell me again how he's "top level"?

And Travis, I was a roadie at a Rolling Stones concert once.

JT: Thank you, thank you very much. I'd like to thank the august members of the academy, my manager, my producer, and last but certainly not least, you, the fans, who without your support and dedication, none of this would be possible.

Now, WHERE'S MY LIMO?!?!?!? :laugh:

FCYTravis
03-11-05, 07:43 PM
Nah, you didn't get a limo. None of us do. But you helped make possible what those who rode in the limos did. For some of us, that's enough.

Don't sell yourself short. You were there. That's a lot more than most people will ever be able to say.

At least until the next LAST FINAL WE REALLY REALLY MEAN IT THIS TIME Rolling Stones tour ;)

Sean O'Gorman
03-11-05, 07:51 PM
Alex is a decent guy, but considering that he never won squat in the minors, tell me again how he's "top level"?

Well, he certainly is better than Lavin, Mazzacane, Philippe, Dana, Foyt IV, Montiero, etc. etc. I'm assuming he didn't have to bring funding to his ride, so the owner must've seen something in him. If they aren't competitive, then clearly he isn't going to be "top level", but I'd much rather see him driving than not driving because the formula is too expensive for anyone to enter.

Michaelhatesfans
03-11-05, 07:57 PM
It's just too bad that you don't like what they're doing - because the competitors in the series don't give a flying you-know-what what you think of them. They're not out there to please your tastes.
Perhaps we don't like it because we know that the competitors in the series don't give a flying you-know-what what we think of them. Have you ever considered that? If they're not making any effort to please our tastes, remind me again why we should like it? :saywhat:

Ankf00
03-11-05, 08:04 PM
funny, I thought full fields with competitive machinery is what racing was about... you'll have to forgive them for not scrounging together 15 million dollar budgets to satisfy your expectations

sundaydriver2
03-11-05, 08:05 PM
Maybe with Champ Car, but I'm pretty sure that Grand-Am will be fine (and would be fine even if the Frances weren't running it) at their current level.


The Frances are the only reason Grand Am exists.

Ankf00
03-11-05, 08:05 PM
France is why IMSA was created, was IMSA evil too?

FCYTravis
03-11-05, 08:11 PM
Isn't it funny how all of sports car racing's problems - no matter what perspective you take - come back to FRANCE?

Some people think the ACO in France has rules which are completely destroying sports car racing.
Other people think some guy named France is completely destroying sports car racing.

BLAME FRANCE! :rofl:

Sean O'Gorman
03-11-05, 08:15 PM
Perhaps we don't like it because we know that the competitors in the series don't give a flying you-know-what what we think of them. Have you ever considered that? If they're not making any effort to please our tastes, remind me again why we should like it? :saywhat:

You can say the same thing about Champ Car or IRL. Don't believe me? Stop showing up to races, see how much changes. Both of these series are practically to the level where they are nothing more than glorified club racing, just like Grand-Am.

Sean O'Gorman
03-11-05, 08:16 PM
The Frances are the only reason Grand Am exists.

If they didn't create Grand-Am, someone else would've. There would've been no need for it if Panoz would've just stuck with SCCA/USRRC back in '98 and helped build a privateer-based series like he should've in the first place.

Michaelhatesfans
03-11-05, 08:23 PM
You can say the same thing about Champ Car or IRL. Don't believe me? Stop showing up to races, see how much changes. Both of these series are practically to the level where they are nothing more than glorified club racing, just like Grand-Am.
But I like the product (in the case of Champ Car), so I still go. I don't really get your point.

Michaelhatesfans
03-11-05, 08:27 PM
...you'll have to forgive them for not scrounging together 15 million dollar budgets to satisfy your expectations
They've spent far more than that making cars that suck and that no one wants to watch. Once the France's get tired of subsidising it, and the manufacturers get tired of the retina burns from the empty grandstands, perhaps they will spare a thought for the fans next time.

Sean O'Gorman
03-11-05, 08:32 PM
They've spent far more than that making cars that suck and that no one wants to watch. Once the France's get tired of subsidising it, and the manufacturers get tired of the retina burns from the empty grandstands, perhaps they will spare a thought for the fans next time.

How do you know the France's are subsidizing it? Most road racing doesn't have to depend on spectators in order to succeed. Just go to Mid-Ohio or Portland or any other road course that has no pro races, and look at how they are doing just fine with SCCA, NASA, PCA, BMWCCA, etc. Besides, the entry fees for pro races are very high, but Grand-Am's 40-60 car fields (for both Rolex and Grand-Am Cup) are much bigger than IMSA or Champ Car, so that is additional revenue being collected.

The manufacturers don't need to worry about the number of fans too, as I'm sure they all can make a profit by selling engines and cars to the large number of competitors.


But I like the product (in the case of Champ Car), so I still go. I don't really get your point.

The point is, you say one of the things that would stop you from liking Grand-Am is the fact that the series doesn't seem to want you as a fan, yet Champ Car seems to think the same. I know they don't want me, as 3 of the 4 race tracks I've attended Champ Car races at have been dropped from the schedule since Forsythe's wonderful idea that the races should be at street courses and in countries with no identifiable fan base.

Joelski
03-11-05, 08:35 PM
Mid-Ohio is and has been teetering on the brink of bankruptcy for quite some time. :rolleyes:

FCYTravis
03-11-05, 08:36 PM
Spending millions? Well, sure, Riley spent millions to develop the MkXI. He's also made millions. 16 chassis sold times $375,000 each, times $pare$. That's a lot of dough.

FCYTravis
03-11-05, 08:37 PM
Mid-Ohio is and has been teetering on the brink of bankruptcy for quite some time.
I'm sure losing the Runoffs hasn't helped matters...

Joelski
03-11-05, 08:39 PM
I'm sure losing the Runoffs hasn't helped matters...

It certainly didn't buy Michelle very many purses either.

FCYTravis
03-11-05, 08:39 PM
:rofl: :laugh: :rofl:

Joelski shoots, HE SCORES!

Michaelhatesfans
03-11-05, 08:46 PM
The point is, you say one of the things that would stop you from liking Grand-Am is the fact that the series doesn't seem to want you as a fan, yet Champ Car seems to think the same.
I disagree about Champ Car, but let me clarify something. I hate the DP's primarily for what they are (and for what they pretend to be). My point about Grand Am not wanting me as a fan is that you guys need to work on a better sales pitch. Every time someone really knocks Grand Am/DP's, you counter with something along the lines of, "You're not supposed to like it." How the hell are we meant to respond to that - ask where we can buy tickets immediately? I mean I know you guys are not professional sales people, but surely you can do better than that! :laugh:

Michaelhatesfans
03-11-05, 08:52 PM
Just go to Mid-Ohio or Portland or any other road course that has no pro races, and look at how they are doing just fine with SCCA, NASA, PCA, BMWCCA, etc.
Um, we still have two pro races, thanks....

FCYTravis
03-11-05, 08:55 PM
MHF, the fact is, you're clearly never going to like Grand Am anyway no matter what we say, so why bother? We'll have a nice debate, it'll die off and we'll both go back to our corners and get on with life. Champ Car isn't wasting its time trying to appeal to the hardcore Indy 500 fanbase, and Grand Am isn't going to waste its time trying to appeal to the hardcore Grand Am Sucks folks.

There's nothing any of us could ever say or do that would make you change. If the argument is so pat as "France sucks, so his series sucks," what else are we supposed to respond with other than "Fine, don't watch it, it's not for you?" If you think France sucks so everything he does sucks, that's all there is to it. No point in going any further - I'm never going to convince you otherwise.

We've argued this to death ad infinitum. I've said my piece, we had our fun, now it's back to your regularly scheduled programming.

Sean O'Gorman
03-11-05, 08:58 PM
Every time someone really knocks Grand Am/DP's, you counter with something along the lines of, "You're not supposed to like it." How the hell are we meant to respond to that - ask where we can buy tickets immediately? I mean I know you guys are not professional sales people, but surely you can do better than that! :laugh:

Okay, tell me this. How much effort does the company you work for make towards obtaining a tiny niche of a customer base that spends little but demands alot? Probably very little, if any at all, because there is no profitability in it. Grand-Am realizes this with the hardcore sports car fans, and that is why they choose not to target them.

The Grand-Am philosophy as it relates to spectators basically states that once they have a healthy field of competitors, they can start working towards reaching new fans with different tastes, rather than the small number of "traditional" fans who are more interested in impractically expensive cars and have no interest in the personalities. It makes sense to me...


Um, we still have two pro races, thanks....

That is why I said OR any track that doesn't have pro races, not AND any track that doesn't have pro races.

Michaelhatesfans
03-11-05, 09:00 PM
I've said my piece, we had our fun, now it's back to your regularly scheduled programming.
Yeah, we keep saying that...

But.....

Bob_S.
03-11-05, 09:06 PM
France is why IMSA was created, was IMSA evil too?

There's a difference. Try thinking about it this way:
You go to your old High School during reunion week to see what's changed. The first thing you notice is that the Track and Field team is wearing full pads and helmets. Odd, but maybe this is some form of training?
You go inside to the pool and notice the swimming and diving teams are also wearing pads and helmets and playing full-contact water polo.
You walk up to a coach and ask what's going on. He tells you that swimming and track just didn't have crowds as big as the football team so some changes were made. You ask how the changes have helped and he tells you they haven't.......but the football team is getting a new bus.
It sounds crazy, but this is the way ISC does business. Dumb it down so anyone can follow what they think is going on then torpedo the competition so they have the only game in North America.

Sean O'Gorman
03-11-05, 09:10 PM
There's a difference. Try thinking about it this way:
You go to your old High School during reunion week to see what's changed. The first thing you notice is that the Track and Field team is wearing full pads and helmets. Odd, but maybe this is some form of training?
You go inside to the pool and notice the swimming and diving teams are also wearing pads and helmets and playing full-contact water polo.
You walk up to a coach and ask what's going on. He tells you that swimming and track just didn't have crowds as big as the football team so some changes were made. You ask how the changes have helped and he tells you they haven't.......but the football team is getting a new bus.
It sounds crazy, but this is the way ISC does business. Dumb it down so anyone can follow what they think is going on then torpedo the competition so they have the only game in North America.

So you are saying that Grand-Am was dumbed down for the competitors?

nissan gtp
03-11-05, 09:12 PM
easy poll :gomer:

ALMS

next ....

JT265
03-11-05, 09:12 PM
So you are saying that Grand-Am was dumbed down for the competitors?

SeanO,


If you spent as much time hunting for trim as you do defending the Daytona ProtoCraps, (nice Doc A^stin imitation a few posts ago too), you'd have a stable that would make the Mustang Ranch proud.


You're welcome. ;)

Michaelhatesfans
03-11-05, 09:13 PM
....once they have a healthy field of competitors, they can start working towards reaching new fans with different tastes, rather than the small number of "traditional" fans who are more interested in impractically expensive cars and have no interest in the personalities...
To suggest that sports car fans have no interest is in the driver personalities is just silly, Sean. Sports car fans are some of the most knowledgeable racing fans around. Don't give me that.

As for impractically expensive cars, I've said before that I'd be on for scrapping prototypes altogether. ALMS only has four, and Grand Am doesn't have any real ones anyway. Scrap them and there isn't much of a debate anymore.

I don't see ALMS as the be all and end all, believe it or not. Panoz's heart was in the right place, and he put his money where his mouth was, but he has to count on another sanctioning body that only cares about one race, so he's painted himself into a bit of a corner.

Bob_S.
03-11-05, 09:16 PM
So you are saying that Grand-Am was dumbed down for the competitors?

No, I'm saying that Grand Sham was created and dumbed-down just to sink ALMS. :gomer:

Sean O'Gorman
03-11-05, 09:18 PM
ALMS is doing a good job sinking itself.

Tell me again, which teams in Grand-Am would be running in ALMS right now had Grand-Am not been created? And how many teams has Grand-Am lured over with big $$$ like the IRL did to CART?

Go ahead, answer, I'm interested to hear what you say. :laugh:

Racing Truth
03-11-05, 09:20 PM
The jury has spoken

And that's why we have an appeals system. ;)

Watching one 5-yr. old Audi beat another 5-yr. old Audi after the aging Dyson cars expire. Wow, can you feel the tension folks! :gomer:

Sean O'Gorman
03-11-05, 09:24 PM
SeanO,


If you spent as much time hunting for trim as you do defending the Daytona ProtoCraps, (nice Doc A^stin imitation a few posts ago too), you'd have a stable that would make the Mustang Ranch proud.


You're welcome. ;)

Yeah I probably could, but I've determined now that all women are psycho and have an agenda radar that causes them to only be interested in you if you want nothing to do with them. Seriously, who the hell asks out their ex-boyfriend's older brother? I had no idea what to say to her!

Anyway, I'm getting waaaay OT with that one...

Bob_S.
03-11-05, 09:25 PM
ALMS is doing a good job sinking itself.

Tell me again, which teams in Grand-Am would be running in ALMS right now had Grand-Am not been created? And how many teams has Grand-Am lured over with big $$$ like the IRL did to CART?

Go ahead, answer, I'm interested to hear what you say. :laugh:

You didn't triple dog dare me yet. :rolleyes:
I learned a while back not to bother with 20-somethings who already have all the answers.
Just pay attention next time. As much as you want to deflect what I wrote and hinge it all on the teams, note that I was posting about why Grand Sham was formed in the first place. :gomer:

Racing Truth
03-11-05, 09:27 PM
ALMS is weak because Grand Am was another attempt to fix something that wasn't broken.
Bottom line, ISC wanted real sports prototypes out at the Daytona 24 because they didn't have total control. Sound familiar? :thumdown:

Oh really? So GARRA got in the way of Don's grand vision, eh? :shakehead Empirical suggests this is silly.