View Full Version : Grand Am aero package?
Interesting bodywork on that car in the middle.
http://www.toyota.com/motorsports/images/grandam/gallery/photo_1.jpg
Spicoli
03-10-05, 12:06 PM
:rofl:
Methanolandbrats
03-10-05, 12:48 PM
It looks better. Sawzall the A and B pillars and it would look like a racecar.
extramundane
03-10-05, 01:09 PM
Careful, that's the future of American Motorsports you're badmouthing. Grand-Am's 3 fans should be along any minute to tell us how those cars are beautiful and how anyone can win, even if you're not driving a factory Riley...
FCYTravis
03-10-05, 02:45 PM
Given that a brand-new privateer Riley team finished third in their second-ever race (Krohn/TRG @ Homestead), perhaps you should rethink your competitive thoughts, extramundane. When was the last time a brand-new privateer prototype team finished on the podium at an ALMS race, except by default when the Dyson cars break?
no one said they're beautiful, they just said the fields are full with people who want to race, the classes are competitive, and the business model is working, unlike ALMS at the moment with this M3-GTR deja vu business. I personally don't care for the formula myself
FCYTravis
03-10-05, 03:08 PM
the fields are full with people who want to race, the classes are competitive, and the business model is working
Exactly, Ank.
...and you can get behind the wheel without the team owner holding you upside down by the ankles to make sure he got all your loose change.
Michaelhatesfans
03-10-05, 04:57 PM
http://www.birminghamhomes.net/images/Hwy%20119/Brick%20size.jpg
FCYTravis
03-10-05, 05:03 PM
Don't like it, don't watch it. Simple enough to me.
I can't fathom why so many people spend so much time kvetching about something they don't like.
Nobody here (least of all me) is going to sit here and snowball you about how these cars are the greatest things ever and they look uber-beautiful and OMG w00t THAYR HOT.
What I am going to sit here and do is tell you that the Grand Am has a business model that works. Aesthetics be damned.
Michaelhatesfans
03-10-05, 05:13 PM
I can't fathom why so many people spend so much time kvetching about something they don't like.
I think it has to do with this being a racing forum. I could be wrong.
FCYTravis
03-10-05, 05:26 PM
:gomer: :laugh:
The new DPP, Daytona Pickup Prototype, can keep up with the rest of them. NASCAR knows how to market sports cars to the masses, throw a truck in there for good measure. :gomer:
FCYTravis
03-10-05, 05:35 PM
That's just Ganassi and his creative rules interpretations again. He's trying to circumvent the weight rules AND improve airflow to the rear wing. :thumbup:
theunions
03-10-05, 05:45 PM
FYI, the positioning of the #01 car between the lesser damaged #02 and #03 for the photo finish was no coincidence.
Don't like it, don't watch it. Simple enough to me.
Done and done.
I can't fathom why so many people spend so much time kvetching about something they don't like.
You're posting this in a forum where the most popular topic is people kvetching about something they don't like. Many people see direct parallels between the series that they're often complaining about.
FCYTravis
03-10-05, 07:07 PM
There are no parallels between Grand Am and the IRL.
The IRL was created by a track owner who wanted sole control of open-wheel racing in America, bar none. He didn't mind if he had to destroy it in the process. His group had NEVER successfully run Indy car racing in America - we all know the USAC days were a disaster.
The Grand Am was created in a time of great turbulence in sports car racing, when nobody particularly knew what was going to happen to PSCR as Andy Evans dug its hole ever deeper. Nobody knew if Don Panoz's last-ditch efforts would work. So the folks behind the original IMSA (yes, don't you remember, IMSA was cofounded by Big Bill France?) came together again. That group of people had plenty of experience building IMSA into the greatest series in American sports car racing history.
One used to be able to argue that Grand Am might have been "stealing" teams and drivers from IMSA, back when they had the same rule structures and the same cars. They answered that question already - they created their own rulestructure. You may not like it, but don't try and claim they're "stealing" anyone from IMSA. There's no big factory teams blitzing all the small teams - there were three teams and two constructors on the podium at Homestead - with one dominant Pontiac engine that anyone can have access to, even the "little guy" teams. What did all of Ganassi's big bucks get him there? Fifth and seventh.
There is no enmity at the top between IMSA and Grand Am. The two series have wished each other well and gone their separate ways. Each makes an effort to not run over each other's schedules - you'll note that only one weekend out of the entire season has both an IMSA and a Grand Am race. Drivers jump in and out. Teams compete in both series - see Orbit and TRG. There's even one track that hosts both.
They're answering the cry - "Rovals suck." They've dropped most-all of the rovals off the schedule - only Daytona, Fontana, Homestead and Phoenix remain - and Daytona can at least claim tradition. Otherwise, Grand Am visits some of the best road courses that North America has to offer - Autodromo Hermanos Rodriguez, Watkins Glen, Laguna Seca, Barber Park, VIR, Mont-Tremblant, Mid-Ohio. While Champ Car drops road courses for fugly 1.3 mile street parades, Grand Am is ADDING them.
Meanwhile, Grand Am makes financial sense for teams. There's no secret - just cost controls. Real cost controls. Roller chassis for $375,000 - and that'll buy you the best car in the field, the Riley.
I can hardly argue against a series that A. has full fields B. puts on a good show C. promotes road racing to new audiences and D. allows road-racing teams to make a profitable go of it.
In short, y'all are making a mountain out of a molehill. Someone please point out to me what the parallel is between the IRL and Grand Am, other than that in your opinion, both series have ugly cars.
Why are teams flocking to the Grand Am and not IMSA? It has nothing to do with anyone's conspiracy theories.
Take a guess. I'll give you a hint - one letter, one number, complete domination, no point in even trying because when you start your engines, you've already automatically lost.
In Grand Am, anyone can buy the winningest car in series history - the Pontiac Riley. I can go to Riley and buy exactly what SunTrust is using. The. Exact. Same. Car. That's what the rules say. Privateer teams can be competitive again, like they were back in the days of the Porsche 962.
As long as the R8 (and R9???) are left completely unchecked and dominant, there's no point being a privateer in IMSA unless you're like Dyson and can afford to spend $zillions to develop an LMP675 to the point where on its best day it can maybe, maybe keep up with an Audi R8 until it's time for a pit stop at which point the starter fails and you lose.
Potential sports car racing teams are faced with a choice: Go to Grand Am and buy the same chassis and engine that the series champion teams have - or go to the ALMS and spend even more money to buy something that might let you finish on the lead lap, maybe.
There are no parallels between Grand Am and the IRL.
The IRL .....................................blahber, blahber, blahber....................
Dude, we are a bunch of ADHD sombitches. If you want to say something, you had best shorten it up to less than three sentences if you expect it to get read.
There are no parallels between Grand Am and the IRL.
Stopped there. You've elminated yourself from reasonable discussion.
FCYTravis
03-10-05, 07:33 PM
Dude, we are a bunch of ADHD sombitches. If you want to say something, you had best shorten it up to less than three sentences if you expect it to get read.
:rofl:
It's possible to dislike Grand Am without being an ALMS fan. Just a point I'd like to make.
FCYTravis
03-10-05, 07:50 PM
For sure, Rich. And my sentiments above were mis-expressed and I retract them. Those who don't like Grand Am, please, keep saying it... I'll keep saying I like Grand Am, and never the twain shall meet, but we'll all come together and sing kumbaya at the end of the day :thumbup: :p :rofl:
Sean O'Gorman
03-10-05, 08:02 PM
Travis, don't bother. Apparently sitting behind a keyboard typing on the Internet gives you the credibility to dismiss all racing that isn't Champ Car, F1, and ALMS as "real" racing, even though two of those three series are going nowhere fast. In fact, the worse off a series is commercially, apparently the more pure it is, because anyone who doesn't like it is just a dumb neanderthal that watches only for crashes and explosions and hopes for 4,579 passes a lap.
I'm not too passionate about this debate because I'm not a big sportscar fan, and the following questions are honest, but it's REALLY surprising to hear the "commercially viable" argument from intelligent racefans.
If the racing was awesome, why does it matter if the series is commercially okay or not? Has Wilke penetrated your psyche so much that financial condition of a racing series is a criterion for fandom?
And do you really care that everyone gets the same equipment?
Sean O'Gorman
03-10-05, 08:27 PM
I'm not too passionate about this debate because I'm not a big sportscar fan, and the following questions are honest, but it's REALLY surprising to hear the "commercially viable" argument from intelligent racefans.
If the racing was awesome, why does it matter if the series is commercially okay or not? Has Wilke penetrated your psyche so much that financial condition of a racing series is a criterion for fandom?
And do you really care that everyone gets the same equipment?
These issues matter because they make the difference between a 25 car prototype field, and a 4 car prototype field. I know which one I prefer.
FCYTravis
03-10-05, 08:33 PM
Rich, the two go hand in hand. You don't have to have good racing to be economically viable, but you have to be economically viable to have sustainable good racing.
Speaking as a race fan, if the series isn't economically viable, it doesn't matter how good the racing is, the racing won't exist for very long. See IMSA GTP for details. When its economic viability went downhill, so did the racing - and the series imploded shortly thereafter. If you want good racing to last, you have to make sure the teams can afford to continue racing.
Economic viability SPURS good racing, because it draws more teams and competitors to the series, creating stronger and deeper fields of competition.
Equal access to equipment is important because again, it spurs good racing. See Champ Car - everyone has the same chassis and the same engine. Equality equals close, driver-focused competition. When driver skills matter more than how much engine you can afford to buy, you see the best drivers go up front and the worst ones putter around at the back.
Speaking as a road-racing participant now, if you can't build an economically-viable professional road racing series, you won't have any professional road racing teams anymore.
I'm with Travis and Sean on this one. No one, and I mean no one ever said the cars are pretty. Just that Grand-Am has a viable business model and has been extremely successful at attracting teams.
Sean O'Gorman
03-10-05, 10:18 PM
Speaking as a road-racing participant now, if you can't build an economically-viable professional road racing series, you won't have any professional road racing teams anymore.
But didn't you know Trav, that the competitors are nothing but greedy bastards that will race anything for money, and that racing should be all about the few hundred "purists" that bitch and moan about the lack of "real racing" on teh innernet? :gomer: :gomer:
Methanolandbrats
03-10-05, 11:08 PM
Damn, some of you GA Gomers are touchy :)
Sean O'Gorman
03-10-05, 11:09 PM
Hey I'm not the one who threatened to leave OC when Road America was left off the '05 schedule. ;)
extramundane
03-11-05, 12:40 AM
Given that a brand-new privateer Riley team finished third in their second-ever race (Krohn/TRG @ Homestead), perhaps you should rethink your competitive thoughts, extramundane. When was the last time a brand-new privateer prototype team finished on the podium at an ALMS race, except by default when the Dyson cars break?
TRG/Krohn's run has more to do with the drivers, which I'm sure they couldn't afford if Buckler didn't rent 47 cars per race to anyone with a driver's license. The point is that, despite the claims of the GARRA suicide squad that any DP can win any race, any time, the big dollar factory teams are going to win the vast majority of the time. How many times in the last 2 years has a team other than Ganassi, Taylor (the 2 Riley factory teams) or Howard-Boss (factory Crawford) won? Once, and that was only because of a torrential downpour. For that matter, when was the last time anything other than a Riley or Crawford won period? 2003.
Startup costs may be lower, but winning is always going to be very expensive. The myth that Taylor, Ganassi, etc aren't spending as much money as Champion or Dyson is just that: a myth.
extramundane
03-11-05, 12:49 AM
These issues matter because they make the difference between a 25 car prototype field, and a 4 car prototype field. I know which one I prefer.
The only 25 car prototype fields in this country are HSR races. DeePees are as much prototypes as NASCAR sleds are stock cars. But I guess if you repeat things enough times, it must be true...
Countdown to being called an idiot because I don't kiss France Family behind: 5...4...3...
extramundane, I like your posts, ALOT!
The three Grand Am fans showed up, like clockwork
Pzz on the "business model" what a bunch of limp wristed buttsurfers. Enjoy all you want, dont come here and spew about how great it is. When the rubber hits the road, you just want to be there to "flag" it, don't cha???
Lets see, I can have one fillet, or four bigmacs??????????????????????????
FWIW, I dont watch ALMS either, they are not supported by anybody I care to watch. That leaves only one alternative, which is not to watch ANY sportscar racing. Life, it's what happens after you log off
Brittney Spears has a business model, it's her ass
Grand Am's ass looks like Oprahs
but hey, it's all pink inside, right?
Michaelhatesfans
03-11-05, 01:51 AM
Brittney Spears has a business model, it's her ass
Grand Am's ass looks like Oprahs
but hey, it's all pink inside, right?
I see I'm not the only one drinking right now...
Michaelhatesfans
03-11-05, 01:52 AM
Damn, some of you GA Gomers are touchy :)
Especially the Irish kid.
FCYTravis
03-11-05, 02:06 AM
For that matter, when was the last time anything other than a Riley or Crawford won period? 2003.
Nobody said any car could win any race. There are dominant chassis/engine combinations. Just like the Porsche 962 was dominant for an era in IMSA.
And in both cases, ANYONE can buy the dominant chassis/engine combination. Anyone can buy a Pontiac Riley or a Pontiac Crawford, just like anyone could send a cashier's check to Stuttgart and get a 962 on the next trans-puddle Lufthansa Cargo flight.
Nobody can buy an Audi R8.
That's the difference. Anyone can give it a shot. You're guaranteed the chance to run the best car on the grid. If you fark it up, your bad. But at least you start on a close-to-equal footing - what you do with it after that is up to you, your engineers and the rulebook.
Oh, and I laugh at your completely unfounded assertion that Taylor/Riley/SunTrust is spending anything close to what Champion Audi spends.
OK, you changed my mind
Where can I get a ticket for one of those mile and a half ovals that they turn into "World Class" road racing course's???
FCYTravis
03-11-05, 02:12 AM
Same place you can get a ticket for one of those parking lots that Champ Car turns into "World Class" 1.3 mile street courses.
"Santa Fe"
:laugh:
Seriously, with Grand Am running seven different North American permanent road courses, you don't want to get into a track quality fight, because pretty much any series except the ALMS will lose. (The ALMS runs on more great North American road courses than any other series, which is why I love it.)
FCYTravis
03-11-05, 02:22 AM
Oh, and actually you're wrong. Dorans won twice in 2004 - the Bell Motorsports car at the 24 Hours of Daytona and the Doran/Lista factory car at the Watkins Glen sprint race.
FCYTravis
03-11-05, 02:27 AM
TRG/Krohn's run has more to do with the drivers, which I'm sure they couldn't afford if Buckler didn't rent 47 cars per race to anyone with a driver's license. Startup costs may be lower, but winning is always going to be very expensive.
Sure, but you just disproved yourself there. TRG/Krohn can afford it. They couldn't afford to run up front in ALMS in P1 and you know it.
Winning is always expensive. It's just less expensive in the Grand Am than it is in ALMS, and you don't have to worry about one car winning every single race but two in the last two seasons.
Call me at the end of the 2005 season. If the SunTrust Riley wins every race but one this year, you'll have a point and I'll gladly admit I was wrong.
I never said any parking lot track was "world class" but the change subject slant is a trait of someone losing traction. CART bills their street races, uh, street races. Do you consider Long Johns seafood?
Im pretty sure that the subject on which this discussion is based is business model equal quality racing, which is complete and utter horsefeathers. I did watch about thirty minutes of the Shametona Timex drone a thon, and have one question. Did they allow "fans" inside?
I think their number one patron is being raced thirty two times this season.
PS - I tried very hard to spell all the words right, I know how much it means to you. Even as cool as I am, the "Santa Fe" deal sailed over my head
FCYTravis
03-11-05, 02:34 AM
I never said any parking lot track was "world class" but the change subject slant is a trait of someone losing traction.
I never said any roval was "world class" either, did I? You're the one who changed the subject to track quality. I was pointing out that if you're looking for track quality, sure, Grand Am has a few rovals, but it also runs more races at more North American road courses than any other series except the ALMS. I can accept a couple parking lot tracks in the Champ Car calendar and I can accept a few rovals in the Grand Am calendar.
Even as cool as I am, the "Santa Fe" deal sailed over my head
That's a running joke... awhile back someone on this forum (not you) asked if the new Champ Car street race was in "Santa Fe." :laugh:
extramundane
03-11-05, 02:35 AM
Nobody said any car could win any race. There are dominant chassis/engine combinations. Just like the Porsche 962 was dominant for an era in IMSA.
And in both cases, ANYONE can buy the dominant chassis/engine combination. Anyone can buy a Pontiac Riley or a Pontiac Crawford, just like anyone could send a cashier's check to Stuttgart and get a 962 on the next trans-puddle Lufthansa Cargo flight.
Sure, anyone can buy a Pontiac Riley. Can anyone buy the same Pontiac and the same Riley that Wayne Taylor has, though? Not hardly.
Nobody can buy an Audi R8.
Ah, the old Penske Unobtainium defense. And they say GARRA is nothing like the IRL. Anyway, the folks at ORECA might disagree with you on that one.
Oh, and I laugh at your completely unfounded assertion that Taylor/Riley/SunTrust is spending anything close to what Champion Audi spends.
Show me the numbers, then. We've been hearing this red herring for the last 3 years now, and NOBODY has been able to offer up the numbers to prove it. I don't disagree that a Riley roller and a Pontiac engine may be cheaper than an R8 (and that's a Riley and a Pontiac, not necessarily Wayne Taylor's). But the notion that they don't spend as much money on testing, R&D, etc is ridiculous.
Maybe we can ask Bob Riley when he announces his upcoming ACO-spec project...
FCYTravis
03-11-05, 02:39 AM
Sure, anyone can buy a Pontiac Riley. Can anyone buy the same Pontiac and the same Riley that Wayne Taylor has, though? Not hardly.
The exact same Riley? Absolutely. Last year Crawford came up with a couple new whiz-bang aero parts and brought them to a Glen race. Grand Am officials refused to let them put the parts on their cars because they didn't bring enough to equip every Crawford in the field.
"1-3.3 Once approval has been given, no changes, modifications or adjustments in any form may be made to the approved chassis and body design unless specifically allowed in these regulations."
The same Pontiac? Well, if you can build a better Pontiac motor, you can give it a shot. The rules are all there in plain sight.
FCYTravis
03-11-05, 02:42 AM
Anyway, the folks at ORECA might disagree with you on that one.
Yes, a privateer has been allowed to buy a car one year before the car is obsoleted, banned from racing and ready for the vintage grids, after years of complete and utter domination by Audi's factory-backed teams. How generous of Audi.
FCYTravis
03-11-05, 02:49 AM
The interesting thing is that if Audi had only pulled a Porsche and sold the Audi R8 at a reasonable price to privateers around the world, they'd be hailed right now as the savior of sports car racing worldwide - the R8 could have become the standard privateer car of the LMP era much like the 956/962 was in the 1980s. We could be watching double-digit grids of R8s in spectacular race-long battles in sports car series around the world.
Instead, they chose to keep their car for themselves, blow all the competition out of the water and... we're left with this.
all that condensed into three words
except the ALMS
and remember, I dont watch nor pay attention to a schedule since that guy who smashed up the OtterPops car sent me a media guide a few years ago. I think he wanted MY business. (Scott Atherton, I built some stuff for him once)
FCYTravis
03-11-05, 02:58 AM
Yep, except the ALMS.
So North America is blessed with two sports car series that have gone their separate ways, go out of their way to stay out of each other's way, separate their schedules, don't step on each other's toes and don't badmouth each other. The result is, North American fans are blessed with 24 sports car races this year.
I like the ALMS for what it is.
I like the Grand Am for what it is.
I'll continue to attend races for both series and support both series. It's going to be a heck of a season for both.
:cool:
chop456
03-11-05, 03:38 AM
As long as the Grand Am teams and sponsors are happy, that's great. Apparently they don't mind that no one's watching in person or on TV. Who really cares about the fans, anyway? Pesky details.
Sebring will draw more fans next weekend than most of the entire Grand Am season combined. I'm sure that doesn't mean anything, though.
Maybe next you guys can go on a crusade to save MotoGP from itself by switching to Harleys. :laugh:
theunions
03-11-05, 05:56 AM
and remember, I dont watch nor pay attention to a schedule since that guy who smashed up the OtterPops car sent me a media guide a few years ago. I think he wanted MY business. (Scott Atherton, I built some stuff for him once)
Sounds like you're confusing Atherton with Atchison...
Racewriter
03-11-05, 09:25 AM
What the hell is wrong with you guys? Is the Grand-Am such a Pavlov bell around here that you miss the REAL humor in the photo?
The real humor in the picture is that the Fatassi "super team" staged a 3-wide "photo finish"... of cars that weren't even in the same time zone as the win.
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
Winston Wolfe
03-11-05, 11:38 AM
you just gotta love the GA "homers"....
Check the pic fellas.... what are the chances that the winning #1 car, finished in between the #2 and #3 car for a photo finish.
I'm sure someone can apply a math formula to it.... :gomer:
Its funny !
you just gotta love the GA "homers"....
Check the pic fellas.... what are the chances that the winning #1 car, finished in between the #2 and #3 car for a photo finish.
I'm sure someone can apply a math formula to it.... :gomer:
Its funny !
It happens all the time at LeMans too. The last lap there is very often done at a snail's pace to let the winner's teammates catch up.
This thread has proven to be informative and productive. I would like to thank everyone involved.
:gomer:
Unfortunately given the choice between Grand-Am and ALMS most people would say, "Ooooh, Arena Football on NBC, I just love those Boise *******s!"
Sean O'Gorman
03-11-05, 12:42 PM
extramundane, I like your posts, ALOT!
The three Grand Am fans showed up, like clockwork
Pzz on the "business model" what a bunch of limp wristed buttsurfers. Enjoy all you want, dont come here and spew about how great it is. When the rubber hits the road, you just want to be there to "flag" it, don't cha???
Lets see, I can have one fillet, or four bigmacs??????????????????????????
FWIW, I dont watch ALMS either, they are not supported by anybody I care to watch. That leaves only one alternative, which is not to watch ANY sportscar racing. Life, it's what happens after you log off
Maybe if I sniff model glue 10 hrs a day for the next 30 years I can be as intelligent as Ziggy when it comes to racing. :rolleyes:
You should really try liking more forms of racing instead of hating more, you'll enjoy life alot more.
Sean O'Gorman
03-11-05, 12:45 PM
TRG/Krohn's run has more to do with the drivers
Which is EXACTLY what Grand-Am wanted!!!!
Wow, what a strange concept, putting the outcome in the hands of the racers! Burn those Grand-Am wackos at the stake!!!
Everyone knows that REAL racing is when a team can spend $50,000,000 to have a slightly different winglet or diffuser so they can romp on the "competition" by 3 laps, even if they have 2 wankers behind the wheel.
Maybe if I sniff model glue 10 hrs a day for the next 30 years I can be as intelligent as Ziggy when it comes to racing. :rolleyes:
You should really try liking more forms of racing instead of hating more, you'll enjoy life alot more.
Sean,
A couple of things to keep in mind:
1. Ziggy has forgotten more about various forms of racing than you'll ever know.
2. It hasn't even been a week since you last melted down over drifting. That doesn't exactly put you on the high ground when it comes to not hating.
chop456
03-11-05, 12:56 PM
Which is EXACTLY what Grand-Am wanted!!!!
Wow, what a strange concept, putting the outcome in the hands of the racers! Burn those Grand-Am wackos at the stake!!!
Everyone knows that REAL racing is when a team can spend $50,000,000 to have a slightly different winglet or diffuser so they can romp on the "competition" by 3 laps, even if they have 2 wankers behind the wheel.
Sounds like you should be Porsche Supercup's biggest fan, then.
Listen here; you're trying to sell Creed albums at an Anthrax show. No one's buying. The majority of people here thing Grand Am is a rolling, puke-spewing joke. Don't be surprised at people's disagreement when you try to pass it off as the greatest thing on wheels.
If I'm hungry and someone puts a plate of crap in front of me, I don't have to eat it.
Just out of curiosity, what's the greatest sports car race in the world?
Sean O'Gorman
03-11-05, 01:07 PM
Sean,
A couple of things to keep in mind:
1. Ziggy has forgotten more about various forms of racing than you'll ever know.
2. It hasn't even been a week since you last melted down over drifting. That doesn't exactly put you on the high ground when it comes to not hating.
1. I'm well aware of that. However, A.J. Foyt, Roger Penske, etc. all probably know more than him but doesn't get them any respect on these boards, does it?
2. There is a huge difference between what I said about drifting and what you all are saying about Grand-Am. I merely said that I don't like drifting, and that I really think it is a bad idea for Champ Car to be involved with them. Did I say all drifters suck and that there is no reason for its existence? I do not believe so. Hell, all the good drifters are just road racers who can't afford to road race due to the lack of sponsorship.
Sounds like you should be Porsche Supercup's biggest fan, then.
Listen here; you're trying to sell Creed albums at an Anthrax show. No one's buying. The majority of people here thing Grand Am is a rolling, puke-spewing joke. Don't be surprised at people's disagreement when you try to pass it off as the greatest thing on wheels.
If I'm hungry and someone puts a plate of crap in front of me, I don't have to eat it.
Just out of curiosity, what's the greatest sports car race in the world?
What is wrong with Porsche Supercup? I like it. Some of you really need to consider other perspectives when it comes to racing. Notice how RacinM3 doesn't bash Grand-Am, and he fully understands why it exists.
I'm NOT trying to sell Grand-Am to anyone, I'm merely defending it from haters who apparently have nothing better to do than bash any form of racing that is more successful at what it does than Champ Car. Don't hate on Grand-Am becuase Champ Car and ALMS are geared towards what the series owners want, not the competitors (Grand-Am) or fans (NASCAR) want.
If Grand-Am is crap to you, then I guess virtually all racing is the same.
And the greatest sports car race in the world is the one with the greatest level of competition. Seeing as having an Audi makes you an automatic lock to be one of the 2 or 3 teams that actually can win the race, Le Mans is clearly not it. If you disagree, then I suppose you also think that Indy is still the greatest race in open wheel?
Michaelhatesfans
03-11-05, 01:07 PM
You should really try liking more forms of racing instead of hating more, you'll enjoy life alot more.
Think about that one, Sean... you have to really try to like it. No thanks.
Methanolandbrats
03-11-05, 01:21 PM
This thread began as good natured ridicule of GA car bodywork. Nobody poked fun at the "business model". Nobodys said "don't watch GA".
To sum up:
1) if you like GA, watch it, buy tickets, enjoy.
2) If you don't like it, don't watch it.
3) GA has full grids, so if that makes it a good "business model", so be it.
4) Having been raised on CanAm and GTP, I feel that calling those things "prototypes" is absurd. They are ****ty kit cars. That is the problem. Some people as well as ISC are trying to pass current DP cars off as some highly evolved form of sportscar racing. It's not.
Sean O'Gorman
03-11-05, 01:27 PM
This thread began as good natured ridicule of GA car bodywork. Nobody poked fun at the "business model". Nobodys said "don't watch GA".
Really? Was
Careful, that's the future of American Motorsports you're badmouthing. Grand-Am's 3 fans should be along any minute to tell us how those cars are beautiful and how anyone can win, even if you're not driving a factory Riley...
just good natured ridicule?
chop456
03-11-05, 01:34 PM
What is wrong with Porsche Supercup? I like it. Some of you really need to consider other perspectives when it comes to racing
Nothing's wrong with Supercup. I like it. I just figured that since they're affordable, identical cars with a giant grid, it would be your favorite series since that's what you seem to base your enjoyment factor on.
The only perspective I need to consider when it comes to racing is my own. If I watch something and it sucks, no need sit and watch every race. Maybe if the cars change or there's some sea change that interests me, I'll change my mind.
I like to see the cars and teams that race at Le Mans, not Homestead.
[Edit] I used the word change 3 times in one sentence. That must mean something.
Hot Rod Otis
03-11-05, 01:41 PM
As I said in another thread, both series blow. :thumdown:
I'd rather watch a vintage sportscar race with a handful of GTP's and a bunch of old Camel Lights Spices and Argos than either current sportscar series.
I had hopes for ALMS but forget it. 4 car LMP fields, a bunch of what, 8 year old Audi's threading their way through a gaggle of 15 year old 911's and the occasional Ferrari. :rolleyes: No thanks.
As for GA, I tried watching some of the Rolex and found it wasn't my cup o' tea. As methanolandbrats said, A bunch of tube frame kit cars being passed off as "prototypes" :rolleyes: A PROTOTYPE is a 962, a 956 a 917, a TWR or Group44 Jag, Gurney's Eagles a NPTI Nissan, not those **** boxes.
IMO, top-flite sportscar racing in the US has been dead since 1992, the last decent year of the IMSA GTP series. Anything since then has been pathetic, a pale imitation of what it once was. :(
Michaelhatesfans
03-11-05, 01:53 PM
I'd rather watch a vintage sportscar race...
:thumbup:
Sean O'Gorman
03-11-05, 01:58 PM
Nothing's wrong with Supercup. I like it. I just figured that since they're affordable, identical cars with a giant grid, it would be your favorite series since that's what you seem to base your enjoyment factor on.
The only perspective I need to consider when it comes to racing is my own. If I watch something and it sucks, no need sit and watch every race. Maybe if the cars change or there's some sea change that interests me, I'll change my mind.
I like to see the cars and teams that race at Le Mans, not Homestead.
[Edit] I used the word change 3 times in one sentence. That must mean something.
I base my enjoyment of a racing series on whether or not the on track action is good. If it is bad (like the IRL), I don't watch. If it is good (Grand-Am, World Challenge, Toyota Atlantics), I do watch. If it was good and could be good again (like Champ Car or ALMS), then I bitch about it alot on Internet forums. ;)
So, how many of the cars that are racing at Le Mans are going to be at Road America this year?
The term Prototype refers to the fact that these aren't production cars.
I'm NOT trying to sell Grand-Am to anyone, I'm merely defending it from haters who apparently have nothing better to do than bash any form of racing that is more successful at what it does than Champ Car. Don't hate on Grand-Am becuase Champ Car and ALMS are geared towards what the series owners want, not the competitors (Grand-Am) or fans (NASCAR) want.
If you truly think that's what is going on here, you are mistaken.
Furthermore, the hate towards Grand Am has nothing to do with ChampCar or ALMS. You and the other GARRA supporters would do well to stop using "because X or Y sucks" as your argument.
If Grand-Am is crap to you, then I guess virtually all racing is the same.
:confused:
chop456
03-11-05, 02:21 PM
So, how many of the cars that are racing at Le Mans are going to be at Road America this year?
Dunno. Doesn't matter because I'll be in Florida at the time.
Fortunately I'll also be in Florida next weekend.
Folks, please keep your comments focused on ideas and opinions rather than individuals.
Sean O'Gorman
03-11-05, 02:47 PM
:confused:
My point is that many members of this forum have a very elitest view of racing, that only F1, Champ Car, and ALMS are real racing and the rest is just garbage. That anyone who isn't one of the 18 or so in one of those three series is a wanker.
So what I'm saying is that if by the standard that Grand-Am is crap, everything below it (Trans-Am, World Challenge, F2000, SCCA Club Racing), etc. must be as bad or worse. I really doubt that such a small percentage of racing is "pure", especially when it comes from people who have never raced.
Michaelhatesfans
03-11-05, 02:59 PM
Furthermore, the hate towards Grand Am has nothing to do with ChampCar or ALMS. You and the other GARRA supporters would do well to stop using "because X or Y sucks" as your argument.
Absolutely. If Champ Car and ALMS had 80 car grids, I would still hate Grand Am as it currently exists.
Sean O'Gorman
03-11-05, 03:01 PM
Absolutely. If Champ Car and ALMS had 80 car grids, I would still hate Grand Am as it currently exists.
But you wouldn't feel the need to constantly bash it because you'd be content with your own series.
Folks, please keep your comments focused on ideas and opinions rather than individuals.
ok
SOG, you suck. :p
My point is that many members of this forum have a very elitest view of racing, that only F1, Champ Car, and ALMS are real racing and the rest is just garbage. That anyone who isn't one of the 18 or so in one of those three series is a wanker.
So what I'm saying is that if by the standard that Grand-Am is crap, everything below it (Trans-Am, World Challenge, F2000, SCCA Club Racing), etc. must be as bad or worse. I really doubt that such a small percentage of racing is "pure", especially when it comes from people who have never raced.
I'd wager that most folks here enjoy World Challenge, F2000, the Runoffs. All of these series are good at what they do, and don't pretend to be anything else.
Grand Am (in my opinion) calls their tube framed, relatively slow cars "prototypes", and in doing so takes on the full responsibility of the prototype tradition. The older guys here, who have seen what prototype racing can be (not ALMS) probably take offense to that.
I wonder, if Grand Am had stayed with tube frames and a strong rules package, yet gone with 800hp Cosworth turbos for everyone, if they would have attracted more fans. Fast cars that are hard to drive attract me, anyway.
But you wouldn't feel the need to constantly bash it because you'd be content with your own series.
Wrong-O. I'm quite content with F1 and MotoGP right now. I still don't like Grand Am, lima beans, and the woman that tried to run me down on my bike last week.
FCYTravis
03-11-05, 03:19 PM
Then you might as well just give up on sports car racing forever, Rich.
We'll never ever ever ever see an era like IMSA GTP again. Too fast, too expensive, too much factory bucks and too much serendipity to ever have everything come together for that era to happen again. I miss the GTPs too, but if you're waiting for their rebirth, you'll be waiting until you're in the grave.
Any prototype that will ever be made in the future will be a pale imitation of the GTP/Cs. They'll be slower, uglier, safer and not as competitive. Doesn't matter who puts the sticker on the side or who designs them. They'll be worse.
We can choose to accept what we have and try to build a platform for the future, or live in the past like the USAC-is-God-put-the-engines-back-in-the-front crowd.
I have given up, but it's no big loss for me.
There is a third choice between accepting what I don't like and living in the past. It's called "move on to something else". When these threads pop up, though, I'm just intrigued by Grand Am fans! It's really surprising to me that you guys are interested in what they do.
FCYTravis
03-11-05, 03:23 PM
Great, and I have no problem with that. Move right along, nothing to see here, the Grand Am will keep doing what it's doing and you're free to happily ignore it :cool:
Good grief, I'm double posting like crazy....
prototype means non production... since when does the term "prototype" only imply non-tube framed carbon fiber Audi's? Grand-Am is selling itself as a series for the competitors, nothing more. I think most are just pissy b/c it's France owned and many would just blame NASCAR for TG's mess because it's simple and easy. The Timex has tradition, but no one's trying to bill it as something greater than Le Mans. The only place Grand-Am's trying to act as something is not is in some of y'alls heads, nowhere else...
I don't watch NASCAR much, I don't follow it closely that's for sure. I don't follow Grand-Am either other than what's in your general racing article that covers a weekend's action... The formula does nothing for me. But I haven't seen anyone try to show me how Grand-Am is the way of the future or how it's so much better than F1 and MotoGP, etc... "Blame Canada, blame Canada, with their beady little eyes and flappy little jaws, blame Canada!"
also: if the fact that they're called prototypes irks you, the problem lies with you and not the series' backers
wonder, if Grand Am had stayed with tube frames and a strong rules package, yet gone with 800hp Cosworth turbos for everyone, if they would have attracted more fans. Fast cars that are hard to drive attract me, anyway. Wasn't the 3.6L v8 in the Audis only 500 something horsepower?
FCYTravis
03-11-05, 03:55 PM
Yes actually, Ank, the R8s are down to about 550 horsepower under the 2004-05 hybrid rules package - that's per MulsannesCorner.com.
The difference is really power to weight ratio now, plus aerodynamics. Obviously the DPs are much heavier, and they have a lot more drag - plus less downforce. Nobody's going to argue the aesthetics, either :)
Sean O'Gorman
03-11-05, 04:20 PM
Ok you guys have convinced me. Obviously all the racing I like just plain sucks. I should've realized it all sucked a long time ago.
Now I'm going to sit in a corner and cry about how it was so much better back before the 90s and hope some day that someone defies reality and magically brings those days back. That is obviously much more fun. :rolleyes:
Spicoli
03-11-05, 05:26 PM
blah blah ****ing blah
would you all just STFU and get back to hatin .1RL?
FCYTravis
03-11-05, 05:49 PM
would you all just STFU and get back to hatin .1RL?
Words of wisdom, putting this all in perspective. Thanks, man :thumbup:
I've said my piece.
Methanolandbrats
03-11-05, 05:50 PM
Now I'm going to sit in a corner and cry about how it was so much better back before the 90s and hope some day that someone defies reality and magically brings those days back. That is obviously much more fun. :rolleyes: Historically there have been 20 year cycles in motorsports. 2012 or so should be the next peak. Will we get there? I doubt it. If and when ISC gains control of everything, that's the end of innovation and pure racing. That is one of the underlying objections to ISC roadracing.
Joelski
03-11-05, 05:54 PM
Careful, that's the future of American Motorsports you're badmouthing. Grand-Am's 3 fans should be along any minute to tell us how those cars are beautiful and how anyone can win, even if you're not driving a factory Riley...
:rofl: :rofl:
OH MAN! I THINK I STRAINED SOMETHING!!!!!
:D
FCYTravis
03-11-05, 05:55 PM
Hey now, that's FOUR fans, damnit, get it right next time :rofl:
no, it's still 3, i'm not a fan... then again, I don't care for Panoz either seeing as he sells IRL chassis
Michaelhatesfans
03-11-05, 08:03 PM
Ok you guys have convinced me. Obviously all the racing I like just plain sucks. I should've realized it all sucked a long time ago.
(evil scientist laugh, as I think about using this out of context...)
Sean O'Gorman
03-11-05, 08:17 PM
(evil scientist laugh, as I think about using this out of context...)
You realize I do like Champ Car and ALMS too, right?
Michaelhatesfans
03-11-05, 08:17 PM
But you wouldn't feel the need to constantly bash it because you'd be content with your own series.
How shallow do you think I am, Sean? I can enjoy one thing and bash another quite easily. Look! I'm doing it right now!
It's hard for you to accept that we just hate the DP's - period. It's not jealousy. It's not envy. It's not boredom, and it's not any of your other theories that you've pulled out of your a... out of thin air. We just hate the damned DP's so much that we can't help ourselves whenever someone tries to defend them. Really, I don't know why you struggle with that.
If someone bashes drifting, are they doing that because some part of their life is inadequate, or do they do it because they think drifting is stupid?
Michaelhatesfans
03-11-05, 08:18 PM
You realize I do like Champ Car and ALMS too, right?
Like I said, out of context...
:cool:
Sean O'Gorman
03-11-05, 08:28 PM
How shallow do you think I am, Sean? I can enjoy one thing and bash another quite easily. Look! I'm doing it right now!
It's hard for you to accept that we just hate the DP's - period. It's not jealousy. It's not envy. It's not boredom, and it's not any of your other theories that you've pulled out of your a... out of thin air. We just hate the damned DP's so much that we can't help ourselves whenever someone tries to defend them. Really, I don't know why you struggle with that.
If someone bashes drifting, are they doing that because some part of their life is inadequate, or do they do it because they think drifting is stupid?
I can understand why you don't like DPs, its because you are ignorant. ;)
No, in all seriousness, it is perfectly fine that you guys don't like them, but the bashing gets real old. I don't try to defend Grand-Am until someone bashes it.
Besides, blaming Grand-Am for ALMS' failure makes as much sense as blaming Grand-Am for GTP's demise.
Michaelhatesfans
03-11-05, 08:38 PM
Besides, blaming Grand-Am for ALMS' failure makes as much sense as blaming Grand-Am for GTP's demise.
For me it's not about blame. I have stong feelings about what a prototype should be, and the France family's idea of one isn't exactly what I have in mind.
There you go, a rare bit of sugar coating on my part.
(Next time I'm going for your knees again... ;) )
Winston Wolfe
03-11-05, 08:40 PM
Which is EXACTLY what Grand-Am wanted!!!!
Wow, what a strange concept, putting the outcome in the hands of the racers! Burn those Grand-Am wackos at the stake!!!
Everyone knows that REAL racing is when a team can spend $50,000,000 to have a slightly different winglet or diffuser so they can romp on the "competition" by 3 laps, even if they have 2 wankers behind the wheel.
Sean, we have told you a MILLION times... don't exaggerate ! :gomer:
(btw: this is a REALLY hilarious thread, and having just check the forum after being gone since 8am, this really makes me see why productivity in the workplace is at an all-time low....) :thumbup:
Sean O'Gorman
03-11-05, 08:48 PM
Sean, we have told you a MILLION times... don't exaggerate ! :gomer:
(btw: this is a REALLY hilarious thread, and having just check the forum after being gone since 8am, this really makes me see why productivity in the workplace is at an all-time low....) :thumbup:
Yeah, just imagine how boring this place will be in 4 months when I graduate and get a real job. ;)
Railbird
03-11-05, 10:09 PM
I'll be checking out Drifting and Grand Am in person this year.
Just like attending an IRL race to form your opinion rather than echoing some couch bound hater.
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