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Methanolandbrats
03-02-05, 07:59 PM
Corn-Based Ethanol to Fuel IndyCar Series

By LIBBY QUAID

WASHINGTON (AP) - Gasoline Alley at the Indianapolis 500 will soon become Ethanol Alley: The Indy Racing League is switching from methanol to a new mixture relying on corn-derived ethanol.

The league's IndyCar Series will start using ethanol next year, the league said Wednesday.

It's a small market for ethanol, involving 160,000 gallons out of 3.5 billion produced each year. But it's a big symbolic gesture meant to counter perceptions that ethanol doesn't perform as well as gasoline or other fuels.

``It's a performance fuel that's going to go around the track at 220 miles an hour,'' said Dave Vander Griend, president of ICM Inc., a Kansas company that builds ethanol plants.


The corn and ethanol industries have influential supporters who pushed to get the grain alcohol into race cars.


``This sport is so popular, and so many people follow it,'' said Missouri GOP Sen. Jim Talent, one of several Midwesterners who lobbied for ethanol's use. ``This makes a statement to the whole world that ethanol is a high-performance fuel, so people who claim you're going to lose something are not correct.''


Racing officials say they're promoting the importance of the environment and of homegrown fuel.


``In the last 10 years, motor sports has really broken into the mainstream in helping promote and publicize sponsors' products - it's not just motor oil anymore,'' said Ken Ungar, senior vice president of public affairs for the league.


``It's about a broad range of consumer products. The ethanol industry, as many other industries have, recognizes that motor sports is a powerful promotion tool,'' he said.


Indy Racing is announcing the switch Thursday in Washington with Talent and other lawmakers on hand.


Used as a cleaner-burning fuel additive, ethanol is an alcohol created by distilling grain mash, usually from corn. Top ethanol-producing states are Illinois, Indiana, Iowa, Kansas, Minnesota, Missouri, Nebraska, South Dakota, Wisconsin and Tennessee. The industry is growing, with 83 ethanol plants operating now and 14 more under construction.


In the Indy series, ethanol will replace methanol, a natural gas-made fuel that replaced gasoline on the circuit in the 1970s because it was less likely to ignite. IRL cars are built differently from NASCAR vehicles, with no fenders and an open cockpit.


Ethanol, too, is less combustible than gasoline, but engines will need fine-tuning to start burning it.


The changes will be slight, said race car driver Paul Dana. Engines will need alterations because ethanol burns hotter, Dana said, and horsepower will drop slightly while fuel economy rises slightly.


``All of those are extremely subtle,'' Dana said. ``It's more of a software problem in this day and age of computer-controlled engines.''


Dana will be driving a car sponsored by the ethanol industry in the IndyCar Series, which opens this weekend at Homestead-Miami Speedway. Cars in the Indy series will use a blend with 10 percent ethanol next year, then switch to 100 percent ethanol in 2007.


Methanol producers are disappointed in the switch, said Gregory Dolan, vice president of communications and policy for the Methanol Institute. Methanol still will be used in other racing series except for NASCAR, where gasoline is used.


``I think they'll find, switching to ethanol, their fuel costs will be rising, and they may find some period of adjustment as they try to transition their high-performance vehicles from one alcohol fuel to the other,'' Dolan said.


``This probably has more to do with the politics of corn than it does with the actual need for high-performance racing fuel,'' he said.


On the Net:


Indy Racing's IndyCar Series: http://www.indycar.com/indycar/


Ethanol Trade Association: http://www.ethanolrfa.org/



03/02/05 18:23


© Copyright The Associated Press. All rights reserved. The information contained In this news report may not be published, broadcast or otherwise distributed without the prior written authority of The Associated Press.

nrc
03-02-05, 08:34 PM
No comment from Honda or Toyota? Did Tony commit them to millions of dollars worth of "minor adjustments" just to secure one sponsor?

RichK
03-02-05, 08:57 PM
Honda: "Whuh?"
Toyota: "Huh?"

racer2c
03-02-05, 11:21 PM
Could someone PM me when Danika takes her top off for a magazine. Thanks. :)

devilmaster
03-03-05, 02:17 AM
Hmmm. Tony probably watched those Aim Trimark commercials and he thinks he's the visionary that the commercial talks about.

Steve

devilmaster
03-03-05, 02:18 AM
Could someone PM me when Danika takes her top off for a magazine. Thanks. :)

Go to home depot and look at a sheet of plywood.... its pretty much the same thing.

Wheel-Nut
03-03-05, 11:19 AM
HONDA / TOYOTA Rethenrol??

Andrew Longman
03-03-05, 11:48 AM
"This probably has more to do with the politics of corn than it does with the actual need for high-performance racing fuel,'' he said."


From a series that thinks Indianapolis is the center of universe? No, couldn't be.

Let's see... It costs more, provides less HP, requires engine manufacturers to retune the engines, and runs hotter meaning more stress on the engine and/or cooling systems and every other series runs methanol or gas.

Why was this a good idea?

JLMannin
03-03-05, 12:00 PM
Why was this a good idea?

I don't know . . . . . . because it is incompatible with ChampCar? Plus, there is a corn wet-milling plant in Terre Haute.

Racewriter
03-03-05, 12:17 PM
"This probably has more to do with the politics of corn than it does with the actual need for high-performance racing fuel,'' he said."


From a series that thinks Indianapolis is the center of universe? No, couldn't be.

Let's see... It costs more, provides less HP, requires engine manufacturers to retune the engines, and runs hotter meaning more stress on the engine and/or cooling systems and every other series runs methanol or gas.

Why was this a good idea?

A few years ago, there was a Sprint car team that was sponsored by an ethanol company. They ran the crap for half the season, then quietly switched back to VP racing methanol. They lost the sponsorship when the producer group found out...:D:D:D

Sean O'Gorman
03-03-05, 12:20 PM
"This probably has more to do with the politics of corn than it does with the actual need for high-performance racing fuel,'' he said."


From a series that thinks Indianapolis is the center of universe? No, couldn't be.

Let's see... It costs more, provides less HP, requires engine manufacturers to retune the engines, and runs hotter meaning more stress on the engine and/or cooling systems and every other series runs methanol or gas.

Why was this a good idea?

Because it is another move towards IRL obscurity?

Andrew Longman
03-03-05, 12:20 PM
I don't know . . . . . . because it is incompatible with ChampCar? Plus, there is a corn wet-milling plant in Terre Haute.

Like he said, more to do with the politics of corn than racing. As an Easterner (with an otherwise favorable view of midwesterners), I'm simply thrilled that my tax dollars are going to farm subsidies to Indiana farmers to grow corn that winds up in TG's cars (not). Could we give my kid's school a little more money or buy the guys and gals in Iraq a little body armor instead?

I'm all for renewable resources, anything to reduce dependence on mideast oil, but ethanol has yet to prove itself to be anything more than government pork for agribusiness. It simply isn't a viable, economic alternative to gas.

nrc
03-03-05, 12:37 PM
I still don't see any comment on this from Honda or Toyota. Either they really don't care or there's a storm brewing behind the scenes.

Andrew Longman
03-03-05, 12:40 PM
I still don't see any comment on this from Honda or Toyota. Either they really don't care or there's a storm brewing behind the scenes.

I'm sure they are just thrilled to be in the series and will gladly accept whatever challenges and cost are necessary to participate ;)

Easy
03-03-05, 12:42 PM
I still don't see any comment on this from Honda or Toyota. Either they really don't care or there's a storm brewing behind the scenes.

Toyota has probably forgotten that they're even in the IRL. They're too busy making truck commercials with DW and underwriting Ralf's erotic investment fantasies.

JoeBob
03-03-05, 12:44 PM
This is being sponsored by a Minnesota company, so today's Star Tribune had a big story, explaining much of how the deal came about: http://www.startribune.com/stories/535/5270145.html


Indy officials say their target for the 2006 season is a maximum blend of 10 percent ethanol, the same blend mandated for cars in Minnesota. But starting in 2007, they say, the fuel will be 100 percent fuel-grade ethanol.


Ethanol has been promoted as a clean, renewable, home-grown alternative to imported oil. But critics -- including some environmentalists such as O'Donnell -- argue that its virtues are oversold. They say it causes smog, generates little more energy than it takes to produce, and is not economical without substantial federal and state subsidies.

"They have been trying to make ethanol accepted for 25 years, and frankly they haven't been that successful," said Frank Maisano, an energy industry lobbyist in Washington. "When they have been successful, it's only been when farm state senators have tried to jam it down our throats."

But ethanol proponents hope that the sight of ethanol-branded cars zipping around the Indianapolis Motor Speedway will do more for ethanol's image than tax credits and national production mandates.

"We're talking about expanding the market and educating the public," said Ron Fagen, president and CEO of Fagen Inc., the Minnesota partner in the Indy project. "It's 114 octane. It's great performance."


Although ethanol companies have been eager to do a deal with the Indy Racing League, the talks have been ongoing for years.

Fagen, who also sponsors funny cars and dragsters, said he was approached three years ago by Indy racer Paul Dana, who will drive an ethanol-powered demonstration car in this year's season, which begins Sunday at the Homestead-Miami Speedway in Florida.

Apart from Dana's racing prowess, Fagen said he's one of the best salesmen he's ever seen.

As Fagen recalls, "He approached us and said, 'An Indy car would be a great billboard for your industry, and I'm a good driver.' "

RichK
03-03-05, 01:09 PM
"It's 114 octane. It's great performance."

....and the misinformation campaign begins.

Maybe those s***boxes should run on methane, there seems to be plenty centered around the Speedway already.

trauma1
03-03-05, 01:24 PM
this is the last straw for yoda and fonda, now don't be surprised if they bail with chevy next year also, they will be pissed as hell theywant more high tech engines an FTg wants gerbals to run the engines,

cart7
03-03-05, 01:36 PM
http://www.oxbocorp.com/el30_1.jpg

Perhaps T & H are preparing to enter the lucrative world of farm equipment manufacturing and want to use the earl to show off their technical abilities??

That, or TG is returning fire at CCWS. So what if KK bought his own engine building company, TG will merely plant the infield in a fine hybrid and have enough fuel to run the series for a year. Who cares what engines are in the earl cars anyway? As long as they're loud, the lemmings will eat just about anything Tony shovels into the IMS troughs. :gomer:

Gnam
03-03-05, 02:08 PM
Man, when someone says FAST, the first thing I think of is CORN!

http://dynamicrevolution.com/gallery/mazza/images/corn.jpg

Rob
03-03-05, 02:27 PM
Finally, something the IRL has done that makes sense. Manure makes the corn grow, and then the corn makes the crapwagons go. Perfect!

Skater_36
03-03-05, 02:53 PM
I still don't see any comment on this from Honda or Toyota. Either they really don't care or there's a storm brewing behind the scenes.

The engines won't have to be able to run on 100% ethanol until 2007. Maybe that's not going to be a factor for Honda and Toyota to deal with. ;)

Accipiter
03-03-05, 02:54 PM
The engines won't have to be able to run on 100% ethanol until 2007. Maybe that's not going to be a factor for Honda and Toyota to deal with. ;)


Maybe?

pchall
03-03-05, 03:12 PM
Somehow I get the feeling that Al Unser, Jr. is down at the Classy Chassis getting back in shape for his new Indycar ride...

Easy
03-03-05, 03:20 PM
Will they rename the fuel buckeye the corn hole?

Methanolandbrats
03-03-05, 03:31 PM
And will running the drink tube to the fuel cell be an option?

Al Czervik
03-03-05, 05:30 PM
Will they rename the fuel buckeye the corn hole?

On Helio's & Weldon's cars, for sure.

G.
03-03-05, 06:09 PM
Will they rename the fuel buckeye the corn hole?I really needed that laugh! :laugh:

Steve99
03-03-05, 06:22 PM
I still don't see any comment on this from Honda or Toyota. Either they really don't care or there's a storm brewing behind the scenes.

We have engineering comments from "driver" Paul Dana, what more do we need? It's "just a software problem". :rofl:

lone_groover
03-03-05, 08:00 PM
HA HA, cornhole...


Bravo Easy!

:thumbup: :laugh: :thumbup:

Newtpal
03-03-05, 09:12 PM
We have engineering comments from "driver" Paul Dana, what more do we need? It's "just a software problem". :rofl:

Actually Paul Dana is a pretty knowledgeable guy when it comes to cars. With that said, I think this is a big mess waiting to happen for the IRL. You've got to admit that he has done a great job to be able to build up this sponsorship on his own and then convince the league to adopt the ethanol fuel even though its only going to cause them problems. He's got to be one hell of a salesman. Other American drivers should take lessons from him. He had no family money or anything to get into racing and he's been able to pull together this sponsorship on his own instead of whining about the lack of opportunities for American drivers.

Ankf00
03-03-05, 10:06 PM
"It's 114 octane. It's great performance." that just means you can put it through high compression ratios/higher temps before its auto-ignition delay time is reached, nothing to do with the energy density

ethanol will be as potent as Team Mexico Hockey

trauma1
03-04-05, 10:14 AM
Actually Paul Dana is a pretty knowledgeable guy when it comes to cars. With that said, I think this is a big mess waiting to happen for the IRL. You've got to admit that he has done a great job to be able to build up this sponsorship on his own and then convince the league to adopt the ethanol fuel even though its only going to cause them problems. He's got to be one hell of a salesman. Other American drivers should take lessons from him. He had no family money or anything to get into racing and he's been able to pull together this sponsorship on his own instead of whining about the lack of opportunities for American drivers.

he's a idiot gomer, so no he's not going to get any credit and the $$ for his sponsor is more like a kickback to FTG to run the crap

Tifosi24
03-04-05, 11:39 AM
Smell the fragrent aroma of popcorn oil. When I was in AET we worked with E85 all of the time, and whenever I think of it I am remind of the nasty smell of popcorn butter mixed with gasoline. The stuff likes to eat through seals and and other internal bits, so my guess is there will be a lot of rocketship IRL cars in 2007.

devilmaster
03-04-05, 11:44 AM
Hmmm. Tony probably watched those Aim Trimark commercials and he thinks he's the visionary that the commercial talks about.

Steve

I realized that those commercials might just be a Canuck thing, so I'll link an online version....

When you see the commercial, you'll know that Tony saw it. It talks about ethanol and vision. Coincidence? I think not. We're through the looking glass here people.... ;)

http://www.aimtrimark.com/AIM/Retail/CorporateInfo/corporate_info_index.cfm

The commercial is on the right hand side of the page. Click on 'Ethanol'.

Steve

Ankf00
03-04-05, 11:54 AM
Smell the fragrent aroma of popcorn oil. When I was in AET we worked with E85 all of the time, and whenever I think of it I am remind of the nasty smell of popcorn butter mixed with gasoline. The stuff likes to eat through seals and and other internal bits, so my guess is there will be a lot of rocketship IRL cars in 2007.

well methanol is more corrosive I think, so they should be good in that respect...

severson: do you know under what conditions ethanol and gasoline seperate and what that changes with the combustion?

Steve99
03-04-05, 01:23 PM
Actually Paul Dana is a pretty knowledgeable guy when it comes to cars. With that said, I think this is a big mess waiting to happen for the IRL. You've got to admit that he has done a great job to be able to build up this sponsorship on his own and then convince the league to adopt the ethanol fuel even though its only going to cause them problems. He's got to be one hell of a salesman. Other American drivers should take lessons from him. He had no family money or anything to get into racing and he's been able to pull together this sponsorship on his own instead of whining about the lack of opportunities for American drivers.
I doubt Honda or Toyota care for his opinion. He may have a sponsorship for now, but it looks like FTG is getting ready to steal it from him.

Racewriter
03-04-05, 03:43 PM
Actually Paul Dana is a pretty knowledgeable guy when it comes to cars. With that said, I think this is a big mess waiting to happen for the IRL. You've got to admit that he has done a great job to be able to build up this sponsorship on his own and then convince the league to adopt the ethanol fuel even though its only going to cause them problems. He's got to be one hell of a salesman. Other American drivers should take lessons from him. He had no family money or anything to get into racing and he's been able to pull together this sponsorship on his own instead of whining about the lack of opportunities for American drivers.

He may be knowledgeable regarding cars, and I don't doubt his salesmanship at all. As lousy of a driver as he is - even in the IPS, which masks all but the worst talent - getting a sponsor is a huge credit to his salesmanship.

EDwardo
03-05-05, 11:57 AM
I wonder if they considered methane or hot air? Plenty of both are present in the league.

NismoZ
03-05-05, 03:23 PM
First of all I have to assume Honda has a reason for saying in their owner's manuals to use only "up to a 5% ethenol mix" in your fuel. Coming from a state where every 6th row of corn is now sent out for ethenol production I echo Andrew's concerns about farms, farmers, politics and MY subsidy! :mad: Additionally I can't find a gas station ANYwhere around my place without a " contains up to a 10% ethenol mix" sign. So, what am I doing to my engine? :confused:

Ankf00
03-05-05, 03:32 PM
First of all I have to assume Honda has a reason for saying in their owner's manuals to use only "up to a 5% ethenol mix" in your fuel. Coming from a state where every 6th row of corn is now sent out for ethenol production I echo Andrew's concerns about farms, farmers, politics and MY subsidy! :mad: Additionally I can't find a gas station ANYwhere around my place without a " contains up to a 10% ethenol mix" sign. So, what am I doing to my engine? :confused:
corroding it :)

NismoZ
03-05-05, 03:46 PM
Lovely. What should I dump in there to take care of that? (55k mi. NO indication of any trouble...SO far! :D

pchall
03-05-05, 05:38 PM
well methanol is more corrosive I think, so they should be good in that respect...

severson: do you know under what conditions ethanol and gasoline seperate and what that changes with the combustion?

Ethanol loves bonding with water. And water is great for emulsifying an oil with another liquid. Just think of that in your fuel system.
:shakehead

pchall <--- kitchen chemist

L1P1
03-05-05, 09:10 PM
Lovely. What should I dump in there to take care of that?

TG.