NASCAR Expansion: The End of the CCWS? [Archive]

racer2c

02-17-05, 10:39 PM

"If NASCAR has the type of success there that it has here in the United States, it could be the final knife through the heart of the CCWS." - SpeedTV, Tom Jensen

Painting a picture with a wide brush. In this editorial, Fernandez is quoted as saying the Busch race in Mexico will be the biggest race in Mexico.

I laugh at those who discount a NASCAR domination plan and I would be remise if I did not extend yet another very exaggerated FU to one Tony George.

My hope is that the fans in Mexico and Canada know the deal.

Today North America, Tomorrow the World (http://www.speedtv.com/articles/auto/nascar/15239/)

Methanolandbrats

02-17-05, 10:49 PM

If Mexico and Canada embrace NAPCAB and it's developmentally disabled child GRANDAM, then we are near the end of the World.

racer2c

02-17-05, 10:56 PM

If Mexico and Canada embrace NAPCAB and it's developmentally disabled child GRANDAM, then we are near the end of the World.

Thank you. :thumbup:

Redwing

02-17-05, 11:21 PM

Uh, NASCAR HAS had that type of success in the US that he anticipates, and it hasn't killed CCWS. Anyone remember NASCAR at Suzuka?

racer2c

02-17-05, 11:23 PM

Uh, NASCAR HAS had that type of success in the US that he anticipates, and it hasn't killed CCWS. Anyone remember NASCAR at Suzuka?

Suzuka was my first thought too! Although they didn't have Super Fernandez!

Night Train

02-17-05, 11:47 PM

I think it's funny that since Tony George can't kill Champ Car, his minions want NASCAR to do it.

:rolleyes: :confused:

Sean O'Gorman

02-18-05, 12:14 AM

Don't blame NASCAR for taking over the motorsport landscape, blame Champ Car, IRL, IMSA, SCCA, etc. for not looking out for the casual fan's interest...

racer2c

02-18-05, 12:32 AM

Sean O'Gorman

02-18-05, 12:36 AM

"Luke, come to the dark side. Together we will obtain galactic peace"

F 'casual fans'. They can't decide what they like better, NAsCAR or pro wrestling. There's no such thing as a CCWS 'casual fan'. Catering to the casual fan is backward thinking.

Boy, I'm sure a potential sponsor would just love to hear things like that.

The casual race fan doesn't necessarily have to already be an existing NASCAR fan.

devilmaster

02-18-05, 12:55 AM

On a side note, Feck-nut Adrian was in Jimmie Johnson's pit today for the Gatorade 150.

I saw him repeatedly in the background during the broadcast, yet, the fox boys never talked to him. Guess he isn't that famous.

Steve

Don Quixote

02-18-05, 10:37 AM

I am interested in how the Mexican fans respond to FAF come racetime. He obviously believes he is still the hero. I am hoping for a solid Bronx cheer.

Ankf00

02-18-05, 11:08 AM

wasn't Adrian the nameless extra in Pulp Fiction? you know the one I'm talking about...

Wheel-Nut

02-18-05, 11:19 AM

spinner26

02-18-05, 12:19 PM

I hope MJ punts FAF right out of the box. Put some livery into an otherwise waste of time. Can't you just see the head lines, two Mexicans tangle in Mexico Bush League Race.

Steve99

02-18-05, 04:08 PM

I hope MJ punts FAF right out of the box. Put some livery into an otherwise waste of time. Can't you just see the head lines, two Mexicans tangle in Mexico Bush League Race.

I'm hoping Adrian doesn't even make the field.

tllips

02-18-05, 04:49 PM

I'm hoping Adrian doesn't even make the field.

Now that would be Poetic Justice!

Racing Truth

02-19-05, 02:19 PM

Don't blame NASCAR for taking over the motorsport landscape, blame Champ Car, IRL, IMSA, SCCA, etc. for not looking out for the casual fan's interest...

:thumbup: Right on.

RTKar

02-19-05, 03:31 PM

I'm hoping Adrian doesn't even make the field.

Good idea but don't be naive....Remember it's NASCAR...the series that always comes up with that "special consideration". :thumdown:

racer2c

02-19-05, 04:00 PM

:thumbup: Right on.

Yeah, right on. NASCAR will be the only game in town with fans like you and Gorman.:rolleyes:

and Sean, protential sponsors car about fans, casual, hardcore or new. There's no 'magic voodoo' about 'casual fans'. It's well known assumption by the racing press that there are no 'casual fans' for niche autoracing. They tend to have small but loyal fanbases.

Catering to the casual fan is why American's buy Chevy's, eat at McDonalds, and don't take their hats off in resteraunts.

Sean O'Gorman

02-19-05, 04:14 PM

Yeah, right on. NASCAR will be the only game in town with fans like you and Gorman.:rolleyes:

Really? Because last I checked, I watch and attend Champ Car, ALMS, Grand-Am, SCCA, AMA, and NASCAR races, so I find that one hard to believe.

But if you want to keep blaming everyone BUT Champ Car for their lack of success, go ahead and continue...

racer2c

02-19-05, 04:30 PM

Really? Because last I checked, I watch and attend Champ Car, ALMS, Grand-Am, SCCA, AMA, and NASCAR races, so I find that one hard to believe.

But if you want to keep blaming everyone BUT Champ Car for their lack of success, go ahead and continue...

Point out where I did that.

dando

02-19-05, 04:37 PM

Don't blame NASCAR for taking over the motorsport landscape, blame Champ Car, IRL, IMSA, SCCA, etc. for not looking out for the casual fan's interest...
C^RT/Champ Car and the NHL will be case studies of failures in business schools for years to come. Both have alienated their fan base, failed to correct competitive issues, and expanded haphazardly. One could also surmize that in both cases ownership and teams had only their own interests @ heart.

-Kevin

nrc

02-19-05, 05:18 PM

Don't blame NASCAR for taking over the motorsport landscape, blame Champ Car, IRL, IMSA, SCCA, etc. for not looking out for the casual fan's interest...

Try to get into the paddock, errr, garages at a NASCAR event an then tell me about the "the casual fan's interest". NASCAR got where they are by providing a racing product that appeals to the broadest possible demographic and then marketing it well. It had nothing to do with looking out for the casual fan's interest in any respect other than selling the masses on the notion that they cared.

Road racing and open wheel racing will never be anywhere close to NASCAR in popularity in the U.S. They have been doomed to be niche sports since the advent of cable TV. The mass market simply isn't interested in anything more subtle than going in circles, banging wheels and grinding fenders. It's modern day chariot racing.

The greed and idiocy that has been displayed by the open wheel and road racing sanctioning bodies certainly has helped to speed their decent into an even smaller niche, but even that has had little or nothing to do with their "looking out for the casual fan."

Sean O'Gorman

02-19-05, 06:01 PM

Try to get into the paddock, errr, garages at a NASCAR event an then tell me about the "the casual fan's interest". NASCAR got where they are by providing a racing product that appeals to the broadest possible demographic and then marketing it well. It had nothing to do with looking out for the casual fan's interest in any respect other than selling the masses on the notion that they cared.

Road racing and open wheel racing will never be anywhere close to NASCAR in popularity in the U.S. They have been doomed to be niche sports since the advent of cable TV. The mass market simply isn't interested in anything more subtle than going in circles, banging wheels and grinding fenders. It's modern day chariot racing.

The greed and idiocy that has been displayed by the open wheel and road racing sanctioning bodies certainly has helped to speed their decent into an even smaller niche, but even that has had little or nothing to do with their "looking out for the casual fan."

I don't see what paddock access has to do with it. You could take a casual fan and put him on the pit box of a Champ Car team and it still wouldn't matter, if he doesn't like the product, he wont care. Several of my friends are casual fans (as in they only watch about 10 Cup races a year) and they travel to Charlotte every Memorial Day weekend spending hundreds of dollars to sit in the stands, yet I can't get ANY of them to drive 10 miles to go to the Cleveland GP with free grandstand, paddock, and pit passes. They went in 2003 to check out the race under the lights, and then all of them (ranging from first-time race attendees to former hardcore CART fans) told me not to offer the tickets again, the race sucked. You can't play the least common demoninator card either, because three of these eight people are engineering students who you'd think would be more interested in the technical aspects.

Yes road racing is a niche sport, but up until 10 years ago, it was a large niche. The morons in charge pissed that away, and those in charge now do nothing to try and pick them back up. 18 car street races in San Jose and Korea, yeah those'll really bring back the fans. :rolleyes: Its really nothing more than a club racing series that isn't appealing to sponsors, and too expensive for competitors. At least Grand-Am and World Challenge can get away with that, Champ Car, ALMS, Trans-Am, IRL, can't.

What market does Champ Car serve? Can they even define their target fanbase? Does anyone even care aside from a few thousand forum dwellers, the once a year eventgoers, and the 2 or 3 people who tell Nielsen that they watched the race that weekend?

And when you look at the big picture, its basically all just cars going from point A to point A over and over again, there isn't a "smart" kind of racing and a "dumb" kind of racing like so many of you would like to believe.

Racing Truth

02-19-05, 06:10 PM

1. Try to get into the paddock, errr, garages at a NASCAR event an then tell me about the "the casual fan's interest". NASCAR got where they are by providing a racing product that appeals to the broadest possible demographic and then marketing it well. It had nothing to do with looking out for the casual fan's interest in any respect other than selling the masses on the notion that they cared.

2. Road racing and open wheel racing will never be anywhere close to NASCAR in popularity in the U.S. They have been doomed to be niche sports since the advent of cable TV. The mass market simply isn't interested in anything more subtle than going in circles, banging wheels and grinding fenders. It's modern day chariot racing.

3. The greed and idiocy that has been displayed by the open wheel and road racing sanctioning bodies certainly has helped to speed their decent into an even smaller niche, but even that has had little or nothing to do with their "looking out for the casual fan."

Where to start?

1. You just prove our point here. " NASCAR got where they are by providing a racing product that appeals to the broadest possible demographic and then marketing it well. It had nothing to do with looking out for the casual fan's interest in any respect other than selling the masses on the notion that they cared."

Now, in the 1st sentence, you say we're correct. Unless you don't think the product is relevant to courting the "casual fan." Secondly, marketing IS how you attract casual fans, a concept foreign to the geniuses at CCWS and IMS.

2. Now wait a minute. What makes many of us upset with TG forming the IRL is that it wrecked a sport that had decent, no not NASCAR-like but still, TV numbers, and solid attendance. Are you now suggesting this was not so? And what about the theory that Bill France perpetrated the whole split to dilute OW? According to your idea, he would never have had to worry about something that was just "destined" for niche status anyhow.

3. Huh? What kind of logic is that? The split pizzed off all casual fans, and a few diehards too. Yet, you say, " but even that has had little or nothing to do with their "looking out for the casual fan'". What? It has EVERYTHING to do with looking out for (or not looking out for) ALL fans. Do you honestly believe that had there been no split, the sport would be anywhere near as irrelevent as it is today? Do you think there would be all the "leg room" as there is today? Or that TV ratings would still be microscopic?

The sad truth is that the a-holes running this sport have spit on ALL fans, casual, or otherwise. No one has won, and everyone has lost, most of all the fans.

Blaming NASCAR feels good. Too bad it has little basis in fact.

FTG

02-19-05, 06:24 PM

Sean O'Gorman

02-19-05, 06:30 PM

oddlycalm

02-19-05, 06:45 PM

there isn't a "smart" kind of racing and a "dumb" kind of racing like so many of you would like to believe. Define it however you choose to, but there are indeed more nuanced forms of racing as well as other sports, and those are the ones that are most popular and highly regarded by the rest of the world. Part of what makes NASCAR "dumb" is anachronistic cars due to mandating of mid-20th century technology.

All one has to do is to look at what is popular on televsion in the US to know what sells here. Shows with complex plot lines don't, lowest common denominator reality shows do. The top five espionage based shows combined ratings don't equal "American Idol" which is the singers version of of a demolition derby.

However, like most aspects of US culture, NASCAR won't travel well to cultures accustomed to lengthy events and nuance. The most popular sport in the world is football, but in the US it's called soccer and nobody watches. The most well attended races in the world are bicycle races that take days or even weeks to complete. While the biggest most imortant race has been dominated by a US rider for half a decade and another US rider is the current Olympic mens champion road racer, even with Nike's full push and millions of yellow wrist bands floating around the number of US viewers actually watching bicylcle racing is statistically insignificant. Most of the world are raised on tea so they revere astringent beverages so they like dry red wines best, Americans are raised on sweet drinks and they don't. US exports of top quality red wine with complex flavors is currently at record levels while US exports of the "soda pop" white wines that sell best in the US hovers near zero.

Other cultures like our blue jeans and some of our music and movies, but not a lot else. Good luck selling NASCAR to people accustomed to more subtle forms of racing. Most every country has stock car racing of some form, but it's only confused with the top rung on the ladder in the US.

oc

racer2c

02-19-05, 06:49 PM

Blaming NASCAR feels good. Too bad it has little basis in fact.

I don't blame NASCAR. I just think it sucks when the most medicore of a genre is the most popular, Britney Spears, Blink 182, Miller Lite, Chevy etc.

I blame Tony George.

FTG

02-19-05, 06:53 PM

I deal with adversity by admitting the truth.

Sean O'Gorman

02-19-05, 07:03 PM

I deal with adversity by admitting the truth.

So you are saying that the truth is that Champ Car is doing everything right, and it is everyone else's fault that they aren't very successful?

Sean O'Gorman

02-19-05, 07:06 PM

Ankf00

02-19-05, 07:08 PM

Other cultures like our blue jeans and some of our music and movies, but not a lot else. Good luck selling NASCAR to people accustomed to more subtle forms of racing. Most every country has stock car racing of some form, but it's only confused with the top rung on the ladder in the US.

oc
nice post :thumbup:

I think this means OGorman got pwn3d. ;)

Ankf00

02-19-05, 07:14 PM

I don't see that as dumb. Sure it might be more exciting to see a Champ Car team work their magic in the wind tunnel (well, at least when they used to update the cars) than a NASCAR team, but they are both very difficult tasks in their own unique way. Just because one series has a few million rednecks watching it to see Dale Jr. win every race doesn't make it any "dumber."

you totally missed his point...

Racing Truth

02-19-05, 08:27 PM

Define it however you choose to, but there are indeed more nuanced forms of racing as well as other sports, and those are the ones that are most popular and highly regarded by the rest of the world. Part of what makes NASCAR "dumb" is anachronistic cars due to mandating of mid-20th century technology.

All one has to do is to look at what is popular on televsion in the US to know what sells here. Shows with complex plot lines don't, lowest common denominator reality shows do. The top five espionage based shows combined ratings don't equal "American Idol" which is the singers version of of a demolition derby.

However, like most aspects of US culture, NASCAR won't travel well to cultures accustomed to lengthy events and nuance. The most popular sport in the world is football, but in the US it's called soccer and nobody watches. The most well attended races in the world are bicycle races that take days or even weeks to complete. While the biggest most imortant race has been dominated by a US rider for half a decade and another US rider is the current Olympic mens champion road racer, even with Nike's full push and millions of yellow wrist bands floating around the number of US viewers actually watching bicylcle racing is statistically insignificant. Most of the world are raised on tea so they revere astringent beverages so they like dry red wines best, Americans are raised on sweet drinks and they don't. US exports of top quality red wine with complex flavors is currently at record levels while US exports of the "soda pop" white wines that sell best in the US hovers near zero.

Other cultures like our blue jeans and some of our music and movies, but not a lot else. Good luck selling NASCAR to people accustomed to more subtle forms of racing. Most every country has stock car racing of some form, but it's only confused with the top rung on the ladder in the US.

oc

Well, I guess O'Gorman and I are fools here b/c I can't see what any of that has to do with the price of rice in China. Obviously, American culture is, ahh, different in several aspects from other cultures. Look, many other cultures/countries LOVE soccer. Last I checked, no one here gives a crap about it.

Does any of this mean that we're dumb? Or does it mean that other cultures are just plain weird? I don't know. Frankly, it means to me that different cultures are...DIFFERENT. Imagine that.

Am I happy about all aspects of US culture? No. I can enjoy F1, CCWS, yes, even ALMS ;) , and I wish others did too. But saying that F1 is superior and we are backwards sporting-wise accomplishes...what?

It doesn't change a damn thing.

And it also ignores the solid ratings and attendance through 1995.

Racing Truth

02-19-05, 08:37 PM

What ruined open wheel? The split. Who whispered in George's ear before and during the split?

Who gave CART's most influential owner hundreds of million of $$$ in ISC stock just before Penske left CART?

I guess there's nothing wrong with taking advantage of a coke addicted moron, or throwing around some cash, to increase your profits, but there is something wrong with pretending it never happened.

Let me just see if I get this. You're disagreeing with nrc here, right? 'Cuz the 2 posts together would make no sense. NRC argues, I believe, that OW always was, and always will be, a niche sport. And if you buy that, NASCAR has no reason to worry about it.

Now, I can buy the thought that France manipulated TG. But ultimately, Sean and racer2c are right. The blame lies with those running OW racing. They didn't have to listen to anyone. Instead, the sport has been driven into the abyss.

Methanolandbrats

02-19-05, 09:03 PM

Well, I guess O'Gorman and I are fools here b/c I can't see what any of that has to do with the price of rice in China. Obviously, American culture is, ahh, different in several aspects from other cultures. Look, many other cultures/countries LOVE soccer. Last I checked, no one here gives a crap about it.

Does any of this mean that we're dumb? Or does it mean that other cultures are just plain weird? I don't know. Frankly, it means to me that different cultures are...DIFFERENT. Imagine that.

Am I happy about all aspects of US culture? No. I can enjoy F1, CCWS, yes, even ALMS ;) , and I wish others did too. But saying that F1 is superior and we are backwards sporting-wise accomplishes...what?

It doesn't change a damn thing.

And it also ignores the solid ratings and attendance through 1995.

The USA is all about consumption and instant gratification. If you're hungry drive up to a building and someone will throw "food" out the window for you. Want to drink 85 beers and not get fat? Well, try Lite Beer. The elements lacking are judgement and PATIENCE. That is why F1 and soccer will NEVER be popular here. Both sports require an attention span longer than three seconds.

Regarding pre 1995. Yes the ratings and attendence were fine. FTG is the sole reason the whole thing tanked. He turned open wheel entertainment into a ten year long political debate. The hardcore fans of openwheel are still around, but the majority of pre 1995 ticket buyers have left because they want to enjoy themselves when they purchase a ticket for a leisure time activity. THEY DO NOT WANT TO SIT AROUND AND HAVE A POLITICAL DEBATE.

Racing Truth

02-19-05, 09:25 PM

1. The USA is all about consumption and instant gratification. If you're hungry drive up to a building and someone will throw "food" out the window for you. Want to drink 85 beers and not get fat? Well, try Lite Beer. The elements lacking are judgement and PATIENCE. That is why F1 and soccer will NEVER be popular here. Both sports require an attention span longer than three seconds.

2. Regarding pre 1995. Yes the ratings and attendence were fine. FTG is the sole reason the whole thing tanked. He turned open wheel entertainment into a ten year long political debate. The hardcore fans of openwheel are still around, but the majority of pre 1995 ticket buyers have left because they want to enjoy themselves when they purchase a ticket for a leisure time activity. THEY DO NOT WANT TO SIT AROUND AND HAVE A POLITICAL DEBATE.

1. Probably right.

2. EXACTLY MY POINT.

nrc

02-19-05, 09:25 PM

Sean said "looking out for casual fans" as though NASCAR were doing something special for the fans. If what he actually meant was that they're catering to a broader market, that's a different point altogether.

Either way, it makes no difference. Open wheel and road racing were overtaken by NASCAR a long time ago and there was nothing that could be done about it. Thinking that open wheel could compete with NASCAR is like thinking that City Wok can compete with McDonalds.

If by "looking out for the casual fan" you mean producing a product that is tailored to the interests of a broad demographic, you simply cannot do that with open wheel racing or road racing. The people who want that kind of thing are already NASCAR fans and you're not going to draw them away. You simply are not going to attract enough "casual fans" to make up for alienating your core base. If you sell Chinese food you'd better make the best damn food you can for people who like it because you're never going to attract people who don't.

nrc

02-19-05, 09:39 PM

So you are saying that the truth is that Champ Car is doing everything right, and it is everyone else's fault that they aren't very successful?

For my part, no. Champ car has made a lot of mistakes. But much of what has happened has been outside their control and the notion that they would be anywhere close to as popular as NASCAR if only they had "looked out for the casual fan" is nonsense.

And on the issue of "blaming NASCAR," I don't "blame" them - they are what they are. Denying their impact on the market would just be stupid. I simply don't have any interest in that and I don't want to see any aspect of that in the racing I enjoy.

Sean O'Gorman

02-19-05, 10:56 PM

Sean said "looking out for casual fans" as though NASCAR were doing something special for the fans. If what he actually meant was that they're catering to a broader market, that's a different point altogether.

It isn't necessarily the fact that NASCAR is catering to a broader market that is hurting Champ Car, its the fact that Champ Car isn't catering to ANY market! Wait, I take that back, they are catering to the Gerry, Kevin, and Paul market. Good if you are a series owner and can afford it, not so good if you need fans to survive.

I've asked this several times in the past and have never gotten an answer. What, if ANY, target market(s) does Champ Car have? :saywhat:

racer2c

02-19-05, 11:35 PM

It isn't necessarily the fact that NASCAR is catering to a broader market that is hurting Champ Car, its the fact that Champ Car isn't catering to ANY market! Wait, I take that back, they are catering to the Gerry, Kevin, and Paul market. Good if you are a series owner and can afford it, not so good if you need fans to survive.

I've asked this several times in the past and have never gotten an answer. What, if ANY, target market(s) does Champ Car have? :saywhat:

Well, back when CART itself would define such a thing in the early 90's, the CART demographic was a college educated male 28 to 55 years of age who made 50K up a year who appreciates high technology and the art of road racing. I have a fan guide that defines that from '94, even including the 'proper’ race attire and compares it to the NASCAR fan as a "how not to dress when attending a CART race". I'll dig it up and scan it for you. How old were you in '94?

But let us not forget the CCWS is not CART. The CCWS is a brand new racing series, as much as you hate to admit it. I'm sure the demo for the CCWS is anyone and everyone. You seem to be judging the CCWS, a year old series on CART's old weaknesses. Which is 'wrong' with a capital W.

Methanolandbrats

02-19-05, 11:43 PM

I've asked this several times in the past and have never gotten an answer. What, if ANY, target market(s) does Champ Car have? :saywhat:Intelligent fans of openwheel motorsport with disposable income, a technical interest in the racing and an appreciation of the World Stage. This is in sharp contrast to the flag waving, isolationist, backward, kneejerk crowd that follow NASCAR and the IRL. I have attended CanAm races, IMSA GTP races, the USGP, Darlington, Martinsville, Bristol, Rockingham, Michigan (NASCAR), CART races at Milw and RA as well as growing up around Midwestern short tracks. There is a difference in the crowd that attends road racing and oval racing. There are far more oval types than road racing types and that is why NASCAR is so huge. That said, prior to FTG's tantrum, openwheel was fine. He killed it. Had that dickhead been aborted or overdosed, NASCAR would still be huge, but CART and the 500 would still be strong.

Sean O'Gorman

02-19-05, 11:49 PM

I have a fan guide that defines that from '94, even including the 'proper’ race attire and compares it to the NASCAR fan as a "how not to dress when attending a CART race". I'll dig it up and scan it for you. How old were you in '94?

But let us not forget the CCWS is not CART. The CCWS is a brand new racing series, as much as you hate to admit it. I'm sure the demo for the CCWS is anyone and everyone. You seem to be judging the CCWS, a year old series on CART's old weaknesses. Which is 'wrong' with a capital W.

I was 11 back in '94. I remember the article, it was from the AutoWeek Fan Guide. It said that wearing last year's event t-shirts isn't cool, but wearing event shirts from 10 years or older is cool. I have a razor sharp memory. :)

Yes CCWS isn't CART, but when they took over the series they also took over its image, history, and reputation. If they didn't want it, they would've just started from scratch.

Racing Truth

02-20-05, 02:51 PM

Intelligent fans of openwheel motorsport with disposable income, a technical interest in the racing and an appreciation of the World Stage. This is in sharp contrast to the flag waving, isolationist, backward, kneejerk crowd that follow NASCAR and the IRL. I have attended CanAm races, IMSA GTP races, the USGP, Darlington, Martinsville, Bristol, Rockingham, Michigan (NASCAR), CART races at Milw and RA as well as growing up around Midwestern short tracks. There is a difference in the crowd that attends road racing and oval racing. There are far more oval types than road racing types and that is why NASCAR is so huge. That said, prior to FTG's tantrum, openwheel was fine. He killed it. Had that dickhead been aborted or overdosed, NASCAR would still be huge, but CART and the 500 would still be strong.

Don't know if I would use those words, but I agree with your conclusion b/c I just can't see how you can say that many fans who either did watch OW or were willing to give it a shot didn't just say Fark it and go to NASCAR.

At this point, OW is indeed a tiny niche sport. It may forever be this way now, but make no mistake, it did NOT have to be this way.

oddlycalm

02-20-05, 06:08 PM

Well, I guess O'Gorman and I are fools here b/c I can't see what any of that has to do with the price of rice in China. It's an explanation of the fundemental reasons why NASCAR is not going to sell outside of the US and parts of Canada. The tread is about NASCAR in Mexico and if that spells the end of CCWS. Methanolandbrats was on topic as well.

oc

TedN

02-20-05, 07:42 PM

This article (http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1&c=Article&cid=1108853409249&call_pageid=968867503640&col=970081593064&DPL=IvsNDS%2f7ChAX&tacodalogin=yes) does not refer to CCWS, but explains the growing popularity of NASCAR in Canada. I don't think it's going away.

Ted

jonovision_man

02-20-05, 09:45 PM

Andrew Longman

02-21-05, 02:41 PM

NASCAR doing well in the U.S. didn't kill Long Beach.
NASCAR doing well in Canada won't kill the Molson Indys.

They target different people, and even where they target the same people it's not neccessarily an either-or proposition.

jono

NASCAR already has higher TV ratings in Canada than CCWS, or much other sport. Bud outsells Molson in Canada. Canadians are not (US) Americans, but they are no less susceptical to talented marketers south of the (northern) border.

But the Indys will verly likely continue to be successful because they are well organized and marketed signature events in their host cities with traditions.

Of course, if NASCAR wanted to go to Molson organizer and offer to bring the NASCAR boys up to replace the OWRS, that would probably get some attention.

see http://slam.canoe.ca/Slam/Motorsports/NASCAR/2004/08/16/585815.html

jonovision_man

02-21-05, 02:49 PM

NASCAR already has higher TV ratings in Canada than CCWS, or much other sport.

CCWS, yes. "Much other sport", no. It's on cable (TSN) for most races, including the Daytona 500 on the weekend.

Bud outsells Molson in Canada.

No it doesn't.

Canadians are not (US) Americans, but they are no less susceptical to talented marketers south of the (northern) border.

But the Indys will verly likely continue to be successful because they are well organized and marketed signature events in their host cities with traditions.

Of course, if NASCAR wanted to go to Molson organizer and offer to bring the NASCAR boys up to replace the OWRS, that would probably get some attention.

see http://slam.canoe.ca/Slam/Motorsports/NASCAR/2004/08/16/585815.html

I think NASCAR can do very well. But it will have little to no impact on the Indy franchise.

jono

racer2c

02-21-05, 03:02 PM

jonovision_man

02-21-05, 03:15 PM

What could have an impact is the continued sponsor vacuum of NASCAR. The Canadian corporations are not exactly forming a line at the CCWS team doors. Paul Tracy, a famous Canadian champion can't get a Canadian company on his car.

It was written in the press that the new Edmonton race enlarged its corporate suite section because of demand. I'm keeping my fingers crossed that it will be a pivotal year in the sponsorship arena for the CCWS. A strong CCWS in Canada is a strong CCWS.

Agreed.

I posted this on another board, but I think part of the issue is that most Canadian companies primarily want to target American customers, so extra races in Canada doesn't help them any more than it helps American companies selling up here. We're just not that big a country. Well, we're BIG, just not populous. :)

jono

Andrew Longman

02-21-05, 03:30 PM

CCWS, yes. "Much other sport", no. It's on cable (TSN) for most races, including the Daytona 500 on the weekend.jono

"Much" doesn't mean "most". Keep in mind that until Fox and NBC bought the NASCAR contract almost every race was on cable, some even on obscure and now gone TNN. That's where NASCAR grew to become what it is in the US

No it doesn't.jono

My data comes from a relative in TO. I am just as willing believe you, but I have to believe that the Anheiser Busch marketing machine will outspend whatever MolsonCoors can afford and in time will produce predictable results.

I think NASCAR can do very well. But it will have little to no impact on the Indy franchise.

jono

I really, really hope you are right. I will be back to TO this year and I'd like to make Montreal for the first time. That's always tough. It is my wife's birthday and while a trip to Montreal sounds romantic she doesn't see how a weekend of racing is a birthday gift for her. :)

jonovision_man

02-21-05, 03:54 PM

"Much" doesn't mean "most". Keep in mind that until Fox and NBC bought the NASCAR contract almost every race was on cable, some even on obscure and now gone TNN. That's where NASCAR grew to become what it is in the US

That's true. I have no doubt they can grow from here, I was watching the Daytona 500 and I can see what people find compelling about it. Not my thing, but I get why it's other people's. :)

My data comes from a relative in TO. I am just as willing believe you, but I have to believe that the Anheiser Busch marketing machine will outspend whatever MolsonCoors can afford and in time will produce predictable results.

I'll see if I can track down a link. I know they are currently north of 40% as a company, but that includes Coors sales.

I really, really hope you are right. I will be back to TO this year and I'd like to make Montreal for the first time. That's always tough. It is my wife's birthday and while a trip to Montreal sounds romantic she doesn't see how a weekend of racing is a birthday gift for her. :)

I hope I'm right too. :) But really it wouldn't be summer in Toronto without the Indy, it's an event that's become part of the city's fabric. I don't think people would ditch it just because there's a NASCAR race out in a farmer's field somewhere.

jono