Grand Am isn't so bad after all

[DaveL]

If anyone was being baited and taunted it was me, but somewhere deep inside I found the self control not to respond.



You literally invited criticism and you're complaining because you got it? Don't pick a fight and then complain when you get one.


What is literaly to you is figurative to someone else but fine, if you thought were invited to vent your spleen with such ferocity who am I to argue? And this is besides the fact that those of us who acknowledging the success of Grand-Am are not singing the praises of the cars and calling them great. We are simply stating that the France family is doing what the competitors want which is a smart way to do business.



I think that model could be successful if ALMS would make some concessions to cost considerations and NASCAR weren't muddying the waters with their sports racer series and lining up road racers who want to kiss their butt to get a wiff of the money in their pocket.

And if ALMS made such "concessions" there would still be the screaming of blue murder because the cars aren't the most rootinist tootinist most expensive protoypes money can buy and therefore not "pure". As for the second half of your statement, the France family is investing money in their series to make it a success. If ALMS had a viable model for the competitors what Grand Am is doing would have been of no matter.



But if you want to tell me how good it is or why I should be buying that product you'll have to accept that I may respond with an explanation of why I'm not interested.

And if we were actually telling you how good it is and why you should be buying the product you may have a point. But we aren't. We are simply pointing the success Grand Am is having attracting competitors to the series. As a result of this attraction, some of us are looking forward to the 24 hours and admire the driver line up. Is this telling you that you should like it too? No.



Grand Am came in at a time when ALMS was, if anything, building momentum.

And ALMS' own model of expensive cars for which there is only a trace of competitor support is the cause of ALMS' own downward spiral. If Panoz read the tea leaves as closely as the France family and realized that his vision of prototypes had no future given the level of support there is in the racing world for them, he'd have been in a much better situation than he is now.

[Rogue Leader]

Even Grand Am And ALMS dont thin heres a battle! They schedule themselves around eachother so that Teams can run both series if theyd like.

Without getting into it I see nothing wrong with Grand Am, sportscar racing needed it. Grand Am has basically nipped in the bud the problem ALMS has... 1 all dominant car.

[pinniped]

Where was Grand-Am in '03? A horrid joke. If ALMS was "building momentum," we aren't having this discussion now since it SHOULD have been easy to squash G-A, NASCAR/ISC and all.

Oh, and drivers are coming to Grand-Am b/c there are actual rides available. Good rides too. If you can't get a ride in an Audi, Corvette, or Porsche GT3, why bother?

It seems like the real problem the self appointed "art critics" of the racing world have with grand am here is that they analogize it to the IRL. Its ugly, slow, cost built, etc....

Well, if ugly is the standard, how bout them old can am cars. Nothing was more unrestricted than that, it was great racing, they were butt ugly beyond belief but no one complained...it was expensiveand it died. For that matter, early champ cars were often butt ugly. (not as ugly as a modern crap wagon, but nothing is). If I had it my way, all the cars would look like a Ferrari sharknose or a Gurney Eagle. Frankly, I don't find the dps unappealing. Again, sue me.

If cost built is the problem, that criticism can be levelled at every series but formula one. champ cars are pretty darned economical to run now in comparison to their past.

If they aren't fast enough, what is? I remember when formula one cars had 450 hp. Great racing. It may not be the high point of prototype development, but no one is saying that it is. ALMS cars are faster, all four of them. Big deal. Its irrelevant to the fans. The grand ams go fast enough to put on a good show, it isn't like they are out there running 120 mph on the oval portion of the daytona track.

And if this is something that the self appointed ministries of racing culture find so opposite to the ethos of champ car racing, then why all the champ car drivers? Why Paul Newman?

I've seen people get worked up over some non-issues before but jeez, get a grip people.

[Railbird]

"they were butt ugly beyond belief "


http://www.2fords.net/scaleautoracing.com/SlotHistory/74Shadow.jpg

http://www.toadhallracing.com/RA%202003%20Can%20Am1.jpeg


Beauty is in the eye of the beholder apparently

[pinniped]

Take a look at some of the later airbox dominated modified f5000 cars and then get back to me...e.g.,http://www.racingsportscars.com/photo/1985/Mosport-1985-09-15-bg3.jpg

those uop shadows are beautiful, no doubt

[Racing Truth]

This is certainly not my call by any means, but perhaps this thread has outlived its usefulness. Clearly, agreement won't be happening, which isn't a bad thing. Complete agreement does us no good.

That said, that has been clearly established, and although I think there have been multiple silly arguments that have been made, my view is known clearly, as is the opposing view. Maybe time to move on?

And for the record, no, I haven't been a perfect angel here, and for that I do apologize.

[Ziggy]

Note - Everyone knew the F5000 bodied cars were a joke. Thats why it died the second time. Most guys I know dont even refer to this series. It is where CART started however, as the core teams came from there.

[Jag_Warrior]

This is certainly not my call by any means, but perhaps this thread has outlived its usefulness. Clearly, agreement won't be happening, which isn't a bad thing. Complete agreement does us no good.

That said, that has been clearly established, and although I think there have been multiple silly arguments that have been made, my view is known clearly, as is the opposing view. Maybe time to move on?

And for the record, no, I haven't been a perfect angel here, and for that I do apologize.

No! Please don't close this thread! It's the closest we've come to a good racing debate here (that didn't center on the IRL) in months... years!

Gawd, I'd almost forgotten what it was like. :thumbup:

[pinniped]

Note - Everyone knew the F5000 bodied cars were a joke. Thats why it died the second time. Most guys I know dont even refer to this series. It is where CART started however, as the core teams came from there.

I know the aesthetics weren't good the second time around, not sure if that is why it died though...immediately prior to that the can am round 1 died (supposedly due to the Porsche 917k30 domination), the f5000 reigned for awhile and that died too...It seems the market was probably very weakened by the time the 2d version of can am came around. They did have some good talent in the field though.
\
Interesting link re photos:http://www.racingsportscars.com/

[DaveL]

If someone wants to post a picture of an ugly race car, find a picture of a mid-1970s Ligier with the 30ft tall (or so it seems) air scoop.

[pinniped]

I still would like to hear the explanation by the anti-ga contingent as to why so many highly regarded drivers are participating if it so sucks...bourdais, tracey, papis, etc. etc.

[racer2c]

I still would like to hear the explanation by the anti-ga contingent as to why so many highly regarded drivers are participating if it so sucks...bourdais, tracey, papis, etc. etc.

Drivers are like horse jockey's, doesn't matter the horse if the owner is cutting a check.

[pinniped]

Drivers are like horse jockey's, doesn't matter the horse if the owner is cutting a check.

Really? It seems to me that Paul Tracy has ruled out running a certain breed of horses and that Paul Newman has criticized a certain other horse racing series pretty vehemently...but they are in grand am...you're reaching here...

[racer2c]

Really? It seems to me that Paul Tracy has ruled out running a certain breed of horses and that Paul Newman has criticized a certain other horse racing series pretty vehemently...but they are in grand am...you're reaching here...

On the contrary, I believe you are. Tracy has spoken many times about a life in NASCAR after the CCWS. You think this is the only time and the only other series Newman has been involved with. :rolleyes:
Drivers drive where they want, not because a group of purists think they shouldn't. Hell, I'd gladly put a DP through its paces, and I'm very affordable.

[Dr. Corkski]

So do the dozens of Winst-er-Nextel Cup freinds of mine. Thank you but I'll pass.

I prefer a high performance car, I prefer my cheese extra sharp and from Vermont and I would never own a 'strat newer than a '75.
Elitist? Hell, I thought open wheel fans were the epitome of racing elitism.
I've hated NASCAR for 25 years and just because they have evolved into the nations most popular form of racing (thanks Tony), doesn't mean I have to 'accept them, or stop hating them'. I hate the IRL too, oh, but that's ok because you hate them too. I see how it works now.
:shakehead
Again, stop living in the past.:gomer:

[Ziggy]

pinniped, thanks for the link. By 1986 they were truely gone. Indy cars with tacked on bodywork. The Penske and the 83C and 84C Marches for sure. Been along time since I had even seen pictures of these cars.

Frisbee's rocked IMO. I also liked the VDS cars. Some of the early marchs like Teo drove were cool even if there were openwheelers with a set of sponsons down the sides. I bet you would get hurt in one if you crashed it. :eek:

[Sean O'Gorman]

No! Please don't close this thread! It's the closest we've come to a good racing debate here (that didn't center on the IRL) in months... years!

Gawd, I'd almost forgotten what it was like. :thumbup:

Yeah, this is a good thread. If it gets closed, it makes this place no better than 7G or CW.

Besides, it is always entertaining to see the reactions from people when they are fighting a losing battle against a halfwit like me. ;)

[racer2c]

:gomer:

your point?

[racer2c]

Yeah, this is a good thread. If it gets closed, it makes this place no better than 7G or CW.

Besides, it is always entertaining to see the reactions from people when they are fighting a losing battle against a halfwit like me. ;)

Who's losing? Me? I've said time and time again I don't follow sports car racing, but I do believe in not succumbing to the lowest common denominator (that's a math reference Dr. Corski) and I enjoy debating the higher philosophies along such lines. If people didn't, there wouldn't be a Grand Am or an IRL to hate, we'd all be NASCAR fans and that would be the end of it.
I've always stood in amazement and puzzlement of fans of the "flavor of the week club". Those are people who just take whatever comes. "Hey a race series with lot's 'o cars, I'm a fan! So what if it's mediocre, something else will come along".

Who's losing, nrc, Racegrrl, meth$brats? I don't think so since I agree them. We're all losers when the "flavor of the week club" helps to elevate mediocrities to the highest level. A damn shame in my book.

[Sean O'Gorman]

My objections aren't purely aesthetic. Have you actually looked at the DP rules? I object to mandating 70's technology and straightjacket tight specs and then touting the results as a premiere sports car series, or even claiming that they're "prototypes." These are little better than sports racers. If these were the "Lights" class cars I'd have much less objection to them.

Yes I've looked at the rules. I don't see what the problem is with the technology, it was designed to attract competitors. When a car is going around the track, can you really tell that it has a carbon fiber tub, or that it has a semi-automatic gearbox?

If they were Lights class cars, no one would want to run them, because the competitors in Grand-Am want to be in the premier class.


I think that model could be successful if ALMS would make some concessions to cost considerations and NASCAR weren't muddying the waters with their sports racer series and lining up road racers who want to kiss their butt to get a wiff of the money in their pocket.

No, it wouldn't work, because any model that is designed to be factory friendly is going to inevitably be privateer-unfriendly.


Overall I disagree with your assessment of the "cause and effect" of Grand Am racing. IMSA tried the "cheap ugly sports racers" and it was a flop. Grand Am came in at a time when ALMS was, if anything, building momentum.

WSC was not a flop. There were 15-20 WSC cars running in every SportsCar event in 1997, and had Andy Evans and later, Don Panoz not screwed things up, that pace probably could've kept up through the late 90s into today. The cars were relatively inexpensive (compared to GTP and FIA GT), fast, capable of being competitive for many seasons, generally aesthetically pleasing (you CANT tell me the Ferrari 333SP wasn't a cool car), and allowed for great racing action. It was nice to watch a race and know the race is coming down to who is faster, Papis or Weaver, not Audi or Panoz.

ALMS has not had any momentum since its initial season. Those 20-25 car LMP fields, they simply weren't going to last forever. No one wants to stick around to get dominated by Audi and BMW. If Panoz would've stuck to the WSC formula when he bought SportsCar, I'm sure that the Frances would not have felt the need to start up Grand-Am after USRRC failed.

[Sean O'Gorman]

We're all losers when the "flavor of the week club" helps to elevate mediocrities to the highest level. A damn shame in my book.

Just because you say Grand-Am is mediocre over and over again doesn't make it true.

[racer2c]

Just because you say Grand-Am is mediocre over and over again doesn't make it true.

and just because you say it's great doesn't either. Is it better than the ALMS o gorman?

[Sean O'Gorman]

Yes it is. Do you have any basis of why ALMS would be better, other than pure laptimes? Because if that is the case, than certainly ALMS sucks too, since it is slower than the GTPs, and they haven't raced in 13 years!

[Racewriter]

pinniped, thanks for the link. By 1986 they were truely gone. Indy cars with tacked on bodywork. The Penske and the 83C and 84C Marches for sure. Been along time since I had even seen pictures of these cars.

Frisbee's rocked IMO. I also liked the VDS cars. Some of the early marchs like Teo drove were cool even if there were openwheelers with a set of sponsons down the sides. I bet you would get hurt in one if you crashed it. :eek:

Zig - several years ago, I stopped into a vintage shop called "Can-Am Cars," near St. Louis. They had a Frisbee there, and a couple of the early Lola "Can-Am II" cars, along with some 70s Indy cars. Made for a fun afternoon. Never got to see them race in person, but the Frisbee was a neat machine.

[Racewriter]

and just because you say it's great doesn't either. Is it better than the ALMS o gorman?

I believe those of us who are in favor of the Grand-Am, as presently constituted, have put forth several objective criteria in support of it.

Its detractors have merely whined, stamped their feet, and tossed insults.

[devilmaster]

I believe those of us who are in favor of the Grand-Am, as presently constituted, have put forth several objective criteria in support of it.

Its detractors have merely whined, stamped their feet, and tossed insults.

To be fair (and I'll qualify that I really don't care bout GA or ALMS either way), but the threads i've followed in the past year or so, has seen whining, feet stomping, and crap slinging from both viewpoints.

[racer2c]

I believe those of us who are in favor of the Grand-Am, as presently constituted, have put forth several objective criteria in support of it.

Its detractors have merely whined, stamped their feet, and tossed insults.

Whined? Where? Insults? Where?

Basically, and this will be my last on this tired subject of one that I don't care two shakes about anyway, I see simply a bunch of NASCAR lovin', IRL sympathizin', flavor of the month champions of the mediocrity proclaiming that the Grand Sham is a sham no more, but rather the Grand Glam that all should bow down and behold. Please excuse us whiners, insulters and feet stompers if we decline. I don't watch the Daytona 500 either, but I have a strong feeling that you do, not that there is anything wrong with that. Formula forums are like that. ;)

[pinniped]

On the contrary, I believe you are. Tracy has spoken many times about a life in NASCAR after the CCWS. You think this is the only time and the only other series Newman has been involved with. :rolleyes:
Drivers drive where they want, not because a group of purists think they shouldn't. Hell, I'd gladly put a DP through its paces, and I'm very affordable.

What on earth did I say that makes you think that Paul Newman has never driven in any other series? Where in the hell did I say that? I have been an avid fan of all kinds of racing since before I even went to grade school. You know nothing about my history of attending races or anything of the sort. If you want to make some kind of non-condescending and relevant argument then so be it, but go roll your eyes at your own self, because you are flat wrong in your evaluation of my "belief." Look, you "more insider-y than thou" internet kooks are trying to make the argument that a champ car fan should not be a fan of grand am. I suggest that Newman's participation in it renders that argument pretty useless because he is more than anyone an ardent supporter of this series. Sorry to tax your reading comprehension.

Affordable - I dare say you're downright cheap

[pinniped]

Whined? Where? Insults? Where?

Basically, and this will be my last on this tired subject of one that I don't care two shakes about anyway

What's next, a quiet day trolling through a gardening forum?

[racer2c]

What on earth did I say that makes you think that Paul Newman has never driven in any other series? Where in the hell did I say that? I have been an avid fan of all kinds of racing since before I even went to grade school. You know nothing about my history of attending races or anything of the sort. If you want to make some kind of non-condescending and relevant argument then so be it, but go roll your eyes at your own self, because you are flat wrong in your evaluation of my "belief." Look, you "more insider-y than thou" internet kooks are trying to make the argument that a champ car fan should not be a fan of grand am. I suggest that Newman's participation in it renders that argument pretty useless because he is more than anyone an ardent supporter of this series. Sorry to tax your reading comprehension.

Affordable - I dare say you're downright cheap

Put the bottle down.

[pinniped]

Put the bottle down.

Step away from the crack pipe, and you got a deal! :gomer: :thumbup:

[racer2c]

What's next, a quiet day trolling through a gardening forum?

Not my thing, but I'm sure you could recommend one.

[pinniped]

Not my thing, but I'm sure you could recommend one.

No, see that's the beauty of it. If you know nothing of the subject and don't care, you can really irritate the crap out of persons who post there who aren't as ignorant. Just like your participation in this thread! Think of the endless possibilities!

[racer2c]

Put the bottle down.
Just out of curiosity, monsieur esquire, what part of this nonsensical post don't you think I comprehend?

[pinniped]

Just out of curiosity, monsieur esquire, what part of this nonsensical post don't you think I comprehend?

Well, if your post was nonsensical, how could it be comprehended? :gomer:

[racer2c]

No, see that's the beauty of it. If you know nothing of the subject and don't care, you can really irritate the crap out of persons who post there who aren't as ignorant. Just like your participation in this thread! Think of the endless possibilities!

Ah ha! Finaly! I about blew a gasket when ogorman proclaimed victory. I'm glad someone finaly caught up, leave it to the lawyer. And now you break out the "ignorant" insults. Do they teach you that in lawyer schuuel? :gomer:

[pinniped]

Ah ha! Finaly! I about blew a gasket when ogorman proclaimed victory. I'm glad someone finaly caught up, leave it to the lawyer. And now you break out the "ignorant" insults. Do they teach you that in lawyer schuuel? :gomer:

No, I learned it in high school. It isn't a very big word.

P.S. You don't see the humor in this, right? Anyway, any time I post something like that I'm half kidding. But only half. Let me explain it better - when I type something like that I am laughing. No hard feelings

[pinniped]

pinniped, thanks for the link. By 1986 they were truely gone. Indy cars with tacked on bodywork. The Penske and the 83C and 84C Marches for sure. Been along time since I had even seen pictures of these cars.

Frisbee's rocked IMO. I also liked the VDS cars. Some of the early marchs like Teo drove were cool even if there were openwheelers with a set of sponsons down the sides. I bet you would get hurt in one if you crashed it. :eek:


This page of all really is awesome, too bad I wasn't born yet to experience it...and to think this track is now a cheesy mall...


http://www.racingsportscars.com/photo/Riverside-1960-10-16-photo.html

[racer2c]

No, I learned it in high school. It isn't a very big word.

P.S. You don't see the humor in this, right? Anyway, any time I post something like that I'm half kidding. But only half. Let me explain it better - when I type something like that I am laughing. No hard feelings

I've been laughing the entire thread. I'm not going to make enemies over Grand Am. It's all good. :thumbup: