Do you know the way to San Jose?

[rabbit]

If so, head there July 29-31.
San Jose City Council Approves Champ Car Race (http://www.speedtv.com/articles/auto/champcar/14275/)

http://www.speedtv.com/_assets/library/img/large/49525_sj.jpg

[Sean O'Gorman]

Are those directions to the track, or the course itself? :saywhat:

[racer2c]

Are those directions to the track, or the course itself? :saywhat:
:D

[rabbit]

After looking closer at the track map, why are they starting after a kink and then sending the field into the twistiest part of the track right after that? They're just asking for half the field to get eliminated on the first lap.

[Methanolandbrats]

That disaster makes Miami look like Spa.

[pferrf1]

After looking closer at the track map, why are they starting after a kink and then sending the field into the twistiest part of the track right after that? They're just asking for half the field to get eliminated on the first lap.

There is no other place to set up the pit straight and have the paddock adjacent.

[Turn7]

I would wager that the race will start on one of the longer straights. That is what they did in Houston.

[RichK]

After looking closer at the track map, why are they starting after a kink and then sending the field into the twistiest part of the track right after that? They're just asking for half the field to get eliminated on the first lap.

Long Beach does it.

[rabbit]

Long Beach does it.Comparing that track to Long Beach is a bit of a stretch, IMHO. It would help to know the actual dimensions though.

[pchall]

I would wager that the race will start on one of the longer straights. That is what they did in Houston.

Mid-Ohio did that as well, long before Ms. Gajoch forgot that she was a track owner and promoter and became just a check cashing tool.

[RichK]

Comparing that track to Long Beach is a bit of a stretch, IMHO. It would help to know the actual dimensions though.

I'm not comparing the tracks, just the long straight leading into the tightest section. It's been done.

[RTKar]

.....don't tell me.....1.6 miles ........right? :shakehead

[Lola_B70]

May i say something here? Ok....yeah, the track, it's no Spa or St.Pete's for that matter, but it's an f'n race. Everyone is such a pessimist around here, how 'bout we just shut Champcar down and run NO races. 'like that?
Whiners.
If there is another race in San Jose in 2006 hopefully there'll be improvements to the circuit then. Figure if the track is shorter than you'll see the cars more frequently. Tell you what, you show up with some of your friends, buy tickets and San Jose'll make the track longer in 'O6.

I don't see any of you putting your money on the line to hold a Champcar race, Hell, some of you have even suggested not buying tickets and watching it from the overpass. Nice. Great fans. I am sure you make loyal friends too. :rolleyes:

You know why i am pissed, it's because we have 7 months until the G.P. and
I am sure some of you will be b!tching about how crappy this and that is.
Listen brain children, it's obvious this is not the best circuit nor location, we could all find flaws. But how about offering some suggestions for next race. I could go on, perhaps someone has similar setiments. Anyone?

How about a nice "thank you" to the council of S.J. and for that matter, Mr.Listwin, who has been nice enough to put up the money.

[racer2c]

Run Lola Run!

[Ankf00]

How about a nice "thank you" to the council of S.J. and for that matter, Mr.Listwin, who has been nice enough to put up the money.

you don't thank people for laying a steaming pile of poo in public.

[Lola_B70]

Yeahhhhh, that's right. Don designed the track.
News flash:......as well as funding cures cancer, Don is also a track designer.
Poo.... I see how some could say that, if fact i somewhat agree. However, it's going to happen and it is better to accept at this point and try and improve.
As most of you know life is no bed of roses, if this is how it is going to be, so that the powers that be can shoe horn a race in my back yard so be it.
It can only get better right?
Tell me you wouldn't be thrilled to stand by the barrier and have a screaming turbo roll by? C'mon. In Silicon Valley, this can lead to a good thing. Perhaps they move it to Moffett Field, you never know.
Work with them.

[Dr. Corkski]

Tell me you wouldn't be thrilled to stand by the barrier and have a screaming turbo roll by?With that autocross track, will the cars even go fast enough for the turbos to kick in?

[Lola_B70]

we hope so.? :confused:

[Dirty Sanchez]

That disaster makes Miami look like Spa.:D

[Clown]

How the **** do you ****s know its gonna suck?
It hasn't even happened yet!!!
Take your D&G and go to TrackForum with the rest of the gomers :rolleyes:

[FRANKY]

.....don't tell me.....1.6 miles ........right? :shakehead

The alternative is 5,000 peeps at Laguna Seca.

I say give it a shot.

[Dirty Sanchez]

... and then there are those who are happy with any old piece of crap that's given to them. :gomer:

[G.]

I dunno. Might make a visit to my SIL bearable.

Oh, who am I kidding. A NASCAR race, or extensive dental work would make a visit to my SIL bearable. :laugh:

[Rob]

Never mind the track. Rabbit, that song sucks.

[racer2c]

I like the ebay version. ;) :gomer: :)

[Ankf00]

How the **** do you ****s know its gonna suck?
It hasn't even happened yet!!!
Take your D&G and go to TrackForum with the rest of the gomers :rolleyes:
1.6 miles right?

everyone went through this same argument cycle with miami

welcome to version 2.0.

[Methanolandbrats]

How the **** do you ****s know its gonna suck?
It hasn't even happened yet!!!
Take your D&G and go to TrackForum with the rest of the gomers :rolleyes: How do I know? I can read a map. It will be a horrible race, but I'm sure it will be a fine "event".

[KLang]

How about letting them run the race first before declaring it a horrible race? :shakehead

Seems we are going to be in for a long off season. :saywhat:

[Dr. Corkski]

How do I know? I can read a map. It will be a horrible race, but I'm sure it will be a fine "event".What does that matter though? All real race fans at street parades are supposed to be focusing on the 50k other people there instead of them noisy race cars. :gomer:

[RTKar]

...so we rail on about the quality of the irl, an all oval series (soon to be, "a predominantly oval series") that has crappy specs and meaningless passing....While apparently we can't say anything against Champcar, soon to be predominantly a street racing series with little passing, too many yellows and specs that are practically relics...

[nrc]

...so we rail on about the quality of the irl, an all oval series (soon to be, "a predominantly oval series") that has crappy specs and meaningless passing....While apparently we can't say anything against Champcar, soon to be predominantly a street racing series with little passing, too many yellows and specs that are practically relics...

Who says you can't?

[Sean O'Gorman]

Who says you can't?

Kellner, Lola B70, and Clown, apparently. :saywhat:

[racer2c]

I see it like this...

The CCWS is a new series from the ashes of an old series.
The old series lost fans at their 'traditional' road courses for various reasons that I won’t rehash here, as we all know why.

The new series needs to go to where potential fans are, thus your street events. Instant success, just add water.

There is the potential for this new, growing series to garner fans that will be willing to drive to the remote 'traditionals' once they see how spectacular the series is in person at the street race. And trust me, they will think it is spectacular.

Remember, the CCWS isn't CART. Many believe '96 through ''98 to be CARTs 'peak', that may be true regarding the on track show, but CART was losing fans by the droves at their traditional tracks, road and oval.

The problem isn't watered down tracks in urban settings, it's continuing these events on a continuous basis. You can't go to a city once or twice and then say, sorry, we're outta here. You won't make fans that way. Continuity is key.

As the series grows, the 'purist' tracks will return and the fans in the cities will drive out to them like they used to.

It's not rocket science.

I say thumbs up to Santa Fe. A new venue, in a new market. Maybe it will be as entertaining as this years Denver race, which ended up being one of the best races of the year.


:thumbup: (thumbs up icon added for dramatic effect)

[Ankf00]

san jose, sante fe is somewheres southeast of californee ;)

and if CART is making good money doing these hack job street events, why would they risk $ on road courses which have done nothing but lose money in the recent past? wouldn't they just keep creating more street event hack jobs?

[racer2c]

san jose, sante fe is somewheres southeast of californee ;)

and if CART is making good money doing these hack job street events, why would they risk $ on road courses which have done nothing but lose money in the recent past? wouldn't they just keep creating more street event hack jobs?

In a perfect world, they wouldn't be "risking" their money. They would be paid.

Allot of old CART fans want the racing of '97 with the fans and tracks of '94 with the driving personalities of '69, the multiple engine manufacturers and the Indy 500 back. Stop living in the past.

Again, the CCWS is a new series. You piners should petition KK to dig into his pocket again and pay whatever it takes for his series to race at all the great road courses in the US. Tell him that one year, at these tracks is worth ten years of rebuilding, on his dime of course and make sure to tell him that the 5000K fans that show up really appreciate it.

[Dr. Corkski]

The problem isn't watered down tracks in urban settings, it's continuing these events on a continuous basis. You can't go to a city once or twice and then say, sorry, we're outta here. You won't make fans that way. Continuity is key.

As the series grows, the 'purist' tracks will return and the fans in the cities will drive out to them like they used to.Another street race myth. You won't make any long term fans by shoving crap like San Jose in front of their face either. You can blame ISC all you want but if Long Beach brings in so many long term fans in the LA area that supposedly followed the series all year, then why year after year less and less showed up at another local race? People will never follow it on TV if the only reason they show up is to get wasted and see skimply dressed women standing around cars of rich boys.


I say thumbs up to Santa Fe. A new venue, in a new market. Maybe it will be as entertaining as this years Denver race, which ended up being one of the best races of the year.I don't know about Santa Fe, but I do know the proposed tracks at San Jose make Denver look like Spa.

[racer2c]

Another street race myth. You won't make any long term fans by shoving crap like San Jose in front of their face either.

Like Surfers.



I don't know about Santa Fe, but I do know the proposed tracks at San Jose make Denver look like Spa.

Of course you do.

[Dr. Corkski]

Allot of old CART fans want the racing of '97 with the fans and tracks of '94 with the driving personalities of '69, the multiple engine manufacturers and the Indy 500 back. Stop living in the past.It's not living in the past, but paying customers stating what appealed to them about Champ Car in the first place. I don't see what's wrong with wanting to pay for good on track action, competitive racing top to bottom, and proper racing venues.


Like Surfers.Yes, I must have forgotten about all those successful road races in America that have spawned as a result of the success at Surfers. :gomer:

[devilmaster]

1.6 miles right?


Even though I'm for having the race there, mostly cause I want Champcar to be anywhere, I went and looked around for distances on this track....

If mapquest is to be believed, my guestimate says this track could be around 1 to 1.3 miles....

Edit: i'll post a map with some distances I found.

Steve

[racer2c]

It's not living in the past, but paying customers stating what appealed to them about Champ Car in the first place. I don't see what's wrong with wanting to pay for good on track action, competitive racing top to bottom, and proper racing venues.

Like I wrote, petition KK, or the chick at Mid-O who did everything in her power to oust CART. Dig up your road race tickets from the past year.


Yes, I must have forgotten about all those successful road races in America that have spawned as a result of the success at Surfers. :gomer:

That's right, it's all about America. I forgot. Silly me. Somebody get Scott Sharp on the phone quick, we have a closet gomer who needs talking off the ledge!

[Lola_B70]

R2C, well put. (as usual)

Dr. Corkski, there is only one Spa. Every event/race can't and won't be the best, however, it can improve, i.e. Denver.
Great things happen from humble beginnings. San Jose is a great place to redevelope a fan base. San Jose's racing heritage is a strong one, the demographics have changed but i think it is primed to make a come back.

[Dr. Corkski]

That's right, it's all about America. I forgot. Silly me. Somebody get Scott Sharp on the phone quick, we have a closet gomer who needs talking off the ledge!That's the best you could come up with? :gomer:

Last I checked every single team and 7 of the races are based in America, so there must be a bunch of closet gomers running Champ Car too. There is already a top notch completely international series called Formula 1. And I couldn't care less if a monkey is racing a Champ Car as long as it had done more than Rodolfo Lavin did before buying his way into Champ Car.

[racer2c]

If I'm a fan of a certain model car that I've purchased every two years for the past ten and that car has a V8 and leather seats and the next year the car is only offered in a V6 with cloth seats even though the V6 makes as much power as the V8 while getting better mph, I'm not a fan of that car.

[Methanolandbrats]

That's right, it's all about America. I forgot. Silly me. Somebody get Scott Sharp on the phone quick, we have a closet gomer who needs talking off the ledge! Lots of Champcar ****s babble on and on about the importance of blindly supporting the current Champcar because it's the rightful heir to the Champcar Tradition. Well, guess what, that tradition is American Open Wheel Racing and it's a tradition of natural terrain road courses, big ovals, short ovals and an occasional urban circuit. If that is impossible to continue, fine. If the new Champcar Fans want parades in cities on every continent, fine. But just abandon the bull**** about current Champcar carrying the torch for CART and Champcar tradition. Something new is forming and it has nothing to do with preserving tradition. BTW, by abandoning their traditional base and becoming more international, Champcar is going to be crushed by F1.

[Dr. Corkski]

R2C, well put. (as usual)

Dr. Corkski, there is only one Spa. Every event/race can't and won't be the best, however, it can improve, i.e. Denver.
Great things happen from humble beginnings. San Jose is a great place to redevelope a fan base. San Jose's racing heritage is a strong one, the demographics have changed but i think it is primed to make a come back.Welcome to San Jose, the center of apathy. :gomer:

[devilmaster]

Well, here it is. According to mapquest distances, the long part of the track is .83 miles.

The red circled part appears to be all parking lot, making it hard to judge proper distances.

http://www.mnsi.net/~smicalef/trackmap.gif

Steve

[Dr. Corkski]

Well, here it is. According to mapquest distances, the long part of the track is .83 miles.

The red circled part appears to be all parking lot, making it hard to judge proper distances.

[IMAGE]

Stevescott sharp is teh r0x0rrz at a 1.337 mile street track y0. :gomer:

[racer2c]

Lots of Champcar ****s babble on and on about the importance of blindly supporting the current Champcar because it's the rightful heir to the Champcar Tradition. Well, guess what, that tradition is American Open Wheel Racing and it's a tradition of natural terrain road courses, big ovals, short ovals and an occasional urban circuit. If that is impossible to continue, fine. If the new Champcar Fans want parades in cities on every continent, fine. But just abandon the bull**** about current Champcar carrying the torch for CART and Champcar tradition. Something new is forming and it has nothing to do with preserving tradition. BTW, by abandoning their traditional base and becoming more international, Champcar is going to be crushed by F1.

Let's not forget that the decisions to forgo many of the traditional ovals and road courses were not CART or the CCWS's decision, no body showed up. Decision made. Track owners not cooperating. Decision made.

It’s a big world out there and F1 will only be at 18 to 20 races in it. Something tells me that the CCWS could find a niche out there if they were so inclined. But, I don’t hear GF and KK and PG saying they are going after F1. On the contrary. F1 turned it’s back on South Africa years ago. So if the CCWS goes there, they are going up against F1? Ok. Is F1 in Korea? Hmm, nope. Is F1 in Argentina? Uh, nope again.

I make it to two or three races a year in the States. So I’m not supposed to watch the rest of the Champ Car races in around the world on TV because it’s not where Champ Car “came from”. Again, stop living in the past. There’s another series that has spent the last eight years doing that.

[Ankf00]

1.4 miles ?!?

there are people defending 1.4 miles?

good god

is there some kool-aid equivalent of wine i'm unaware of?

[Ankf00]

I make it to two or three races a year in the States. So I’m not supposed to watch the rest of the Champ Car races in around the world on TV because it’s not where Champ Car “came from”. Again, stop living in the past. There’s another series that has spent the last eight years doing that.

It's not about you, it's about creating a fanbase to stabilize the series, support expansion, and for sponsors to market to

throwing **** up on the wall in the in the form of street races on tracks fit for cycling and hoping one lasts while most others get axed isn't the way to build a healthy fanbase

[racer2c]

Let me clarify something, I'm not defending a crap track if that what the Santa Fe track turns out to be, but rather the philosophy of this new series in going to where it has the most potential for growth.

Here's a question for you "traditionalists", what's your solutions?

[racer2c]

It's not about you, it's about creating a fanbase to stabilize the series, support expansion, and for sponsors to market to

throwing **** up on the wall in the in the form of street races on tracks fit for cycling and hoping one lasts while most others get axed isn't the way to build a healthy fanbase

Again, what's your solution, smart guy. Can't wait to hear!

[trish]

It's not about you, it's about creating a fanbase to stabilize the series, support expansion, and for sponsors to market to

throwing **** up on the wall in the in the form of street races on tracks fit for cycling and hoping one lasts while most others get axed isn't the way to build a healthy fanbase
No, it's about him. ;)

[Ankf00]

how about keeping a track on the sched for more than 1-2 years?

how about having street circuits that are well laid out, san jose and miami make houston's cube fest look great... room to spread the legs and actually show off the top end is a good thing

try that for starters



one more idea


THE EAST COAST, RACE ON THE BLOODY EAST COAST, THERE'S PPL ON THE EAST COAST, LOTS OF THEM, WITH MONEY...
that's all :D

[Lola_B70]

Dr. C,
did someone take your race away? Do you not have a local circuit? It sounds as though you are angry and don't want anyone else to have a race unless it happens to be in '97 and we're all sitting at Cananda Corner. Hopefully, that era's style will evolve in the future. No matter what we do we can't have that back today. I wish Fontana was still around.

Racing is a luxury, it's not health care. Let it grow were it grows, US or otherwise. You can still be a full time Champcar fan and F1 fan.

[racer2c]

how about keeping a track on the sched for more than 1-2 years?

Uh, isn't that what I said? ;)


how about having street circuits that are well laid out, san jose and miami make houston's cube fest look great... room to spread the legs and actually show off the top end is a good thing

try that for starters

I agree a 1.4 street course is too short for what is supposed to be a top level racing series.

What I was insinuating towards was the solution to retain, and regain the traditional tracks that we all love when 1, the owners don't want us, or 2, there isn’t enough recent fan support to warrant the expenditure.

[racer2c]

one more idea


THE EAST COAST, RACE ON THE BLOODY EAST COAST, THERE'S PPL ON THE EAST COAST, LOTS OF THEM, WITH MONEY...
that's all :D


As a fellow right coaster, Amen and Halleluiah!

[Ankf00]

The new series needs to go to where potential fans are, thus your street events. Instant success, just add water.

There is the potential for this new, growing series to garner fans that will be willing to drive to the remote 'traditionals' once they see how spectacular the series is in person at the street race. And trust me, they will think it is spectacular.

I was getting at this, these events haven't turned out instant fans by the boatload, sure, the event makes $, there's not a buncha CCWS fans being born b/c of them though

and once they leave the road courses, what's their motivation for going back, assuming they're making their hack job philosophy work, why not keep making more hack jobs if the natives are happy? as opposed to putting effort in ressurecting the classic venues of north america?

[Rob]

THE EAST COAST, RACE ON THE BLOODY EAST COAST, THERE'S PPL ON THE EAST COAST, LOTS OF THEM, WITH MONEY...
that's all :D
YES!!!!

[racer2c]

I was getting at this, these events haven't turned out instant fans by the boatload, sure, the event makes $, there's not a buncha CCWS fans being born b/c of them though

and once they leave the road courses, what's their motivation for going back, assuming they're making their hack job philosophy work, why not keep making more hack jobs if the natives are happy? as opposed to putting effort in ressurecting the classic venues of north america?

I thought I touched on this, but I'm too lazy to click back and see.

In my opinion, it doesn't take long for new fans to become educated Champ Car fans. Why, even here on OC we have fans that are relatively new to the sport and it doesn't take long to shake off their memories of the first street race they attended and 'understand' what makes a pure road race so important to the sport.
That said, I'm perfectly fine watching a Champ Car scream around an F1 class road course in South Africa on TV and attending a race on a Cleveland airport tarmac.

[RTKar]

If they're going to race primarily on street courses, learn how to clean up "Yellows" so 30% of the race isn't run under caution.

[Dr. Corkski]

Dr. C,
did someone take your race away? Do you not have a local circuit? It sounds as though you are angry and don't want anyone else to have a race unless it happens to be in '97 and we're all sitting at Cananda Corner. Hopefully, that era's style will evolve in the future. No matter what we do we can't have that back today. I wish Fontana was still around.

Racing is a luxury, it's not health care. Let it grow were it grows, US or otherwise. You can still be a full time Champcar fan and F1 fan.I gladly paid $150 and drive more than an hour to go watch the Champ Cars at Laguna Seca just a few months ago. The track is still here, the cars are still around. No way would I pay that much to go watch a half-baked sideshow 15 min away, just like I wouldn't pay NHL level prices to go watch their minor league team play just because there is a lockout.

[Lola_B70]

ok, just checking. I completely understand. I feel your pain.

[nrc]

I'm not encouraged that this will be anything other than a Malibu Grand Prix event, but I always take a wait and see position on any new event. I kind of liked the frenzied feel of the short course at Brands Hatch. If most of those streets are eight lanes wide it might not be bad. :)

[Ankf00]

I'm not encouraged that this will be anything other than a Malibu Grand Prix event, but I always take a wait and see position on any new event. I kind of liked the frenzied feel of the short course at Brands Hatch. If most of those streets are eight lanes wide it might not be bad. :)

so what you're saying is you want a race down the boulevards of downtown buenos aires? ;)

[Rogue Leader]

THE EAST COAST, RACE ON THE BLOODY EAST COAST, THERE'S PPL ON THE EAST COAST, LOTS OF THEM, WITH MONEY...
that's all :D


Ditto... christ it sucks here!

[pchall]

... room to spread the legs and actually show off the top end is a good thing...


Something makes me think f00boy isn't talking about racing. ;)

[Dirty Sanchez]

I'm always surprised how people defend decisions to axe traditional events with the "well, they need to make money" logic. Its almost like you lot are shareholders or something :gomer: Why should I care if rich guys get richer on a sport their involved in only because they enjoy it. Face facts... why do you think Kalkhoven is involved in Champ Car?

I speak as a fan... and as a fan I think the direction is troubling. The identity of Champ Car is in jeopardy. Its not doom and gloom to piss on 1.3 mile street races... while 4 mile road courses are on the chopping block. As a fan, I want these races to remain on the schedule. Why settle for less? :thumdown:

Without seeing the books, we're all talking out of our ass. But for every lame ass profitable "event" they add... they should keep or even add a losing event. Break even if you have to... I don't care. We should be fighting for Mid-Ohio to be back on the schedule... not fighting to keep Road America/Laguna Seca on.

Pathetic :thumdown:

[racer2c]

I'm always surprised how people defend decisions to axe traditional events with the "well, they need to make money" logic. Its almost like you lot are shareholders or something :gomer: Why should I care if rich guys get richer on a sport their involved in only because they enjoy it. Face facts... why do you think Kalkhoven is involved in Champ Car?


Pathetic :thumdown:

My 14 year old makes more sense than the above. You obviously know absolulty nothing about businees or you live directly across the street from Road America.

Pathetic is right. For the third time I say, take your argument to Champ Car themselves. Tell them you want all of the great ovals and road courses back regardless what it costs the owners. See how far it gets you.

Times change, race series change, but obviously old CART fans do not. What a shame.

:shakehead :thumdown:

[Ankf00]

My 14 year old makes more sense than the above. You obviously know absolulty nothing about businees or you live directly across the street from Road America.

Pathetic is right. For the third time I say, take your argument to Champ Car themselves. Tell them you want all of the great ovals and road courses back regardless what it costs the owners. See how far it gets you.

Times change, race series change, but obviously old CART fans do not. What a shame.

:shakehead :thumdown:

we're in it as fans, not as investors, should I suck down this new NBA because all the players have decided it's alot more fun to play one-on-one street ball than it is to play a team sport? should I proclaim "THE NHL IS THE GREATEST IT'S EVER BEEN!!!" because the game's morphed from wayne's 90 goal season to the neutral-zone trapfest it is now?

there's absolutely NOTHING wrong with fans demanding quality, the owners are in it for profits, we're in it for entertainment

[racer2c]

we're in it as fans, not as investors, should I suck down this new NBA because all the players have decided it's alot more fun to play one-on-one street ball than it is to play a team sport? should I proclaim "THE NHL IS THE GREATEST IT'S EVER BEEN!!!" because the game's morphed from wayne's 90 goal season to the neutral-zone trapfest it is now?

there's absolutely NOTHING wrong with fans demanding quality, the owners are in it for profits, we're in it for entertainment

Let's step back for a minute and look at the bigger picture. Let me get this straight, the addition of the crapus looking street race in Santa Fe has ruined Champ Car for you guys and you won't be supporting the series until they annouce it was a mistake. Correct?

Let's look at the 2005 schedule and see whats what.

April 10 Long Beach - Classic Event
May 22 Monterrey, Mexico - Road Course
June 4 Milwaukee - Classic oval
June 19 Portland - Traditioanl Road course
June 26 Cleveland - Traditional and unique airport road course.
July 10 Toronto - Popular street course in a great city.
July 17 Edmonton - New event
July 31 Silicon Valley (San Jose, Calif.) crapus looking street course in a new market.
Aug. 14 Denver - underwhelming street race in a new market that provided one of the best races in '04.
Aug. 28 Montreal - F1 level road race with a great crowd in an awsome city.
Sept. 25 Las Vegas - Oval race in a great city.
Oct. 15 Korea - Who knows.
Oct. 23 Surfers Paradise - Traditional event. Very succsessful.
Nov. 6 Mexico City - Road course with huge crowd.

I don't see the issue. So, Mid Ohio is gone. So road America is gone. That schedule is very strong in my opnion with a interesting mix of venues.

Let's pine over Nazerath and Phoenix and MIS and Riverside and Pocono and New Hampshire and Indy.

Un-freakin-belivable.

Some fans. :shakehead

[Dirty Sanchez]

I'm sorry, but I don't get all wet when Kalkhoven holds up a hammer. That might win some over... but it doesn't quite do it for me. Seems like some people are more into outlasting Tony than actually making this product better. If that's your bag... fine. It doesn't have to be mine.

I'll ask it again... why is it so important for you, as a fan, that Champ Car makes a profit? And most importantly, do you think the series is better or worse with 1.3 mile streetfests instead of balls out road courses? Answer as a fan instead of an armchair executive for a change. Remember this is a fan-forum :rolleyes:

I've seen a lot of fan polls about Champ Car. They all ask the same thing... what is the thing about Champ Car you like the most? Guess the #1 answer. :gomer:

[Dirty Sanchez]

the addition of the crapus looking street race in Santa Fe has ruined Champ Car for you guys and you won't be supporting the series until they annouce it was a mistake. Correct?Who said anything about that? If this is your angle... you're completely missing the point.

I've probably spent more money in the last 5 years seeing races than you have in your entire lifetime. I already have my flight, ticket and hotel booked for Long Beach.

[Ankf00]

Let's step back for a minute and look at the bigger picture. Let me get this straight, the addition of the crapus looking street race in Santa Fe has ruined Champ Car for you guys and you won't be supporting the series until they annouce it was a mistake. Correct?



what's unbelievable is your insistence that all things champ car are greatness until proven otherwise, and whatever they hand us should be swallowed whole. sorry i'm a fan, not an investor, i reserve the right to judge and do what i will, if you feel it's your duty to follow lock step then you go ahead and keep pumping the sunshine

[Fried]

I don't know how we're not supposed to be vested in the financials of the series. Clearly if the series is not financially succesful then the series will not exist. So, yeah, I care about financials and I accept that this is the course we're on for the short term. Long term, Road America isn't going anywhere, nor is laguna and Mid-Ohio. When the series returns to prominence (lotsa sponsors, cars and fans) those road courses will still be there to race on.

[Dirty Sanchez]

This series will exist as long as a few rich guys don't get too bored... if anyone is involved in racing to make money they shouldn't be involved in Champ Car... end of story.

I'm a fan of the series... and as I fan, I will advocate for the best product imagineable.

[racer2c]

what's unbelievable is your insistence that all things champ car are greatness until proven otherwise, and whatever they hand us should be swallowed whole. sorry i'm a fan, not an investor, i reserve the right to judge and do what i will, if you feel it's your duty to follow lock step then you go ahead and keep pumping the sunshine

Considering we were two minutes to midnight in not having Champ Car this year, or in the future, I think you and yours are being too harsh over the inclusion of Santa Fe.

Pumping sunshine? Looking again at the '05 schedule, which you conveniently sidestepped, don't mind if I do.

This has run it's course. I'll let you 'fans' have the last word.

[pinniped]

what's unbelievable is your insistence that all things champ car are greatness until proven otherwise, and whatever they hand us should be swallowed whole. sorry i'm a fan, not an investor, i reserve the right to judge and do what i will, if you feel it's your duty to follow lock step then you go ahead and keep pumping the sunshine

I'm gonna tell paper on you! :gomer:

[jonovision_man]

I'll ask it again... why is it so important for you, as a fan, that Champ Car makes a profit? And most importantly, do you think the series is better or worse with 1.3 mile streetfests instead of balls out road courses?

It's important that CC makes a profit because there's only so long the owners will keep it running if it doesn't.

Part of making CC profitable, though, is keeping the fans on-side. So it's a balancing act, they have to axe unprofitable races but if they lose too many fan favourites they're in just as much trouble.

So I basically agree with both of you. :) The series needs to be profitable to survive, but to be profitable you need fans which means one of RA or Laguna should have been maintained. IMO.

jono

[Dirty Sanchez]

I'll break your schedule down for you.

Total Street Races 7/14 = 50%

Street Races 4/14 = 29%
Edmonton (what?)
San Jose (just look at the map)
Denver (improved event)
Korea (complete unknown)

Premium Street Races 3/14 = 21%
LBC
Surfer's
Toronto (I'm being generous)

Total Road Courses 5/14 = 36%

Road Courses 3/14 = 22%
Monterrey (its not really even a permanent road course)
PIR (its almost as tight as a street course... the fact that this is the last American permanent road course is an embarrassment)
Cleveland (I'm actually more tempted to put this under street races to further illustrate my point, but I will give you the benefit of the doubt)

Premium Road Courses 2/14 = 14%
Montreal (I love it)
Mexico City (same)

Total Oval Races = 2/14 = 14%

Champ Car Ovals 1/14 = 7%
Milwaukee (the last one)

IRL abominations 1/14 = 7%
Las Vegas (pathetic)

Now... a few things. If you don't think there are just average to sucky races vs. premium races in each category... you're fooling yourself. The trend has been to remove premium road courses and add average to sucky street races.

Champ Car continues to sell itself as the most diverse series in the world and just about every damn press release makes some mention of this. Its obvious that they want to preserve this image... but you insist that this is a new series. Funny... that they aren't selling it that way, eh? :gomer:

Its almost (not quite) a bit like the IRL selling itself as the most diverse series just because they added 2 road courses and street race isn't it? It sounds ridiculous because we all know its doesn't hold a candle to Champ Car... but the argument can be made. I find it troubling.

Now... add Road America and Laguna Seca to that schedule and then look at the numbers. Looks better now doesn't it?

Regarding financials... ofcourse they're important... but not more important than fundamentally changing your product. I believe that these events require a different approach and they really need to invest in finding the right solutions instead of taking the easy way out by staging lame street races. The series' identity depends on it. If you're gonna have street races... at least make them good ones! Look at St. Petersburg as a model... that was a badass track. It can be done. I want more... you should to.

[Ankf00]

Regarding financials... ofcourse they're important... but not more important than fundamentally changing your product. I believe that these events require a different approach and they really need to invest in finding the right solutions instead of taking the easy way out by staging lame street races. The series' identity depends on it. If you're gonna have street races... at least make them good ones! Look at St. Petersburg as a model... that was a badass track. It can be done. I want more... you should to.

*ding* *ding* *ding*

T.K.O.

[racer2c]

April 10 Long Beach - Classic Event
May 22 Monterrey, Mexico - Road Course
June 4 Milwaukee - Classic oval
June 19 Portland - Traditioanl Road course
June 26 Cleveland - Traditional and unique airport road course.
July 10 Toronto - Popular street course in a great city.
July 17 Edmonton - New event
July 31 Silicon Valley (San Jose, Calif.) crapus looking street course in a new market.
Aug. 14 Denver - underwhelming street race in a new market that provided one of the best races in '04.
Aug. 28 Montreal - F1 level road race with a great crowd in an awsome city.
Sept. 25 Las Vegas - Oval race in a great city.
Oct. 15 Korea - Who knows.
Oct. 23 Surfers Paradise - Traditional event. Very succsessful.
Nov. 6 Mexico City - Road course with huge crowd.

This schedule is the knock out. I'm sorry you guys can't see the forest through the trees.

Check out the Indy Racing League. They race at bunch of old CART tracks. They'll give you plenty to whine about.

[jonovision_man]

April 10 Long Beach - Classic Event
May 22 Monterrey, Mexico - Road Course
June 4 Milwaukee - Classic oval
June 19 Portland - Traditioanl Road course
June 26 Cleveland - Traditional and unique airport road course.
July 10 Toronto - Popular street course in a great city.
July 17 Edmonton - New event
July 31 Silicon Valley (San Jose, Calif.) crapus looking street course in a new market.
Aug. 14 Denver - underwhelming street race in a new market that provided one of the best races in '04.
Aug. 28 Montreal - F1 level road race with a great crowd in an awsome city.
Sept. 25 Las Vegas - Oval race in a great city.
Oct. 15 Korea - Who knows.
Oct. 23 Surfers Paradise - Traditional event. Very succsessful.
Nov. 6 Mexico City - Road course with huge crowd.

This schedule is the knock out. I'm sorry you guys can't see the forest through the trees.

Check out the Indy Racing League. They race at bunch of old CART tracks. They'll give you plenty to whine about.

I score it a draw. :)

The road races are money-losers that are a drain at the moment, and CCWS can't afford them all as is.

While the street races are mostly good, you can't kill every natural terrain circuit and expect to keep all your fans.

jono

[FCYTravis]

What Crapus is saying. And ank, and cork...

Anyone wonder why a lot of road-racing fans are starting to pay more attention to the sports-car series these days?

Perhaps you should look at the tracks they race on. No 1.3 mile abortions for ALMS this year. Just a gaggle of North America's top road courses - Sears Point, Laguna Seca, Portland, Road America, Mid-Ohio, Mosport, Road Atlanta x2, Lime Rock Park, Sebring...

The schedule is a knockout? WTF are you smoking, racer2c? Two years ago I made it a point to go to all four different American road course Champ Car races - if 2005 doesn't change soon I'll be able to go to ONE. Unacceptable.

We've lost Mid-Ohio. We're losing Road America and we're going to dump Laguna Seca, arguably THE most signature road course in the nation, for a 1.3 mile parking lot race around an empty arena in a city that has a severe inferiority complex.

Total crap.

[Sean O'Gorman]

What Crapus is saying. And ank, and cork...

Anyone wonder why a lot of road-racing fans are starting to pay more attention to the sports-car series these days?

Perhaps you should look at the tracks they race on. No 1.3 mile abortions for ALMS this year. Just a gaggle of North America's top road courses - Sears Point, Laguna Seca, Portland, Road America, Mid-Ohio, Mosport, Road Atlanta x2, Lime Rock Park, Sebring...

Yeah. If ALMS and Grand-Am can afford to run Mid-Ohio in front of virtually nobody, why can't Champ Car?

[RichK]

What Crapus is saying. And ank, and cork...

Anyone wonder why a lot of road-racing fans are starting to pay more attention to the sports-car series these days?

Perhaps you should look at the tracks they race on. No 1.3 mile abortions for ALMS this year. Just a gaggle of North America's top road courses - Sears Point, Laguna Seca, Portland, Road America, Mid-Ohio, Mosport, Road Atlanta x2, Lime Rock Park, Sebring...

The schedule is a knockout? WTF are you smoking, racer2c? Two years ago I made it a point to go to all four different American road course Champ Car races - if 2005 doesn't change soon I'll be able to go to ONE. Unacceptable.

We've lost Mid-Ohio. We're losing Road America and we're going to dump Laguna Seca, arguably THE most signature road course in the nation, for a 1.3 mile parking lot race around an empty arena in a city that has a severe inferiority complex.

Total crap.


Travis, I agree.

But, I will point out that ALMS started at such places as the Lowes Charlotte infield, Las Vegas infield and Texas infield. They've come a long way, and so may Champcar. I'm not spending much (any) money on Champcar until it becomes compelling for me again, but there is hope.

[FCYTravis]

They sure did, but they got rid of 'em as soon as they figured out they sucked. Their street race experiments have not been repeated.

ALMS is heading away from parking lot races. Champ Car, on the other hand, is embracing them like a savior and moving AWAY from real road courses.

ALMS is going in the right direction - Champ Car is going in the wrong one. Thus my deep concern.

[racer2c]

All the Champ Car haters are coming out of the woodwork. Mention a street race and it's go time!

Again, (it's like talking to a wall), I'll write this really slow so you'll all understand, CART died last year and CCWS barely, barely made it through life support. Does anyone really understand how close we were of not having a series this year? Now that year one is in the books, you think that it should be back to '94 standards. So yes, the '05 schedule is a knock out. Any Champ Car fan should be ecstatic to have the quality venues that are on it. We could easily have been like the IRL in '96 and racing in a parking lot in Disney with 6 races on the schedule.

The question was asked, if the ALMS can race at Mid-Ohio, why can't Champ Car. Pose that question to the owners of Mid ohio.

Somebody point me to where the real Champ Car fans hang these days. This thread has made me sick to my stomach. I'm ashamed to call myself a Champ Car fans with elitist like those here.

With a schedule like we have for 05 and I read this "Two years ago I made it a point to go to all four different American road course Champ Car races - if 2005 doesn't change soon I'll be able to go to ONE. Unacceptable."

Stop kidding yourselves, you are not a fan of Champ Car and if that's "pumping sunshine" like one mouth breather wrote, take it how you will.

This forum just changed for the worse.

[G.]

When the paddock is filled with Hospitality motorcoaches, when the infield is full of merchandise trailers, when you actually have to buy tickets early, lest they sell out, then I'll whine about the tracks that should be on the schedule.

That said, I really wanted to camp with the boy at RA next year... :shakehead

[FCYTravis]

My educated guesstimation of the total length of the San Jose track is 1.27 miles - based on simply taking a ruler to the sections of known length and comparing them to the "parking lot" sections of previously unknown length.

[FCYTravis]

Excuse me, racer2c?

I'm not a Champ Car fan because I want to see the series run more road courses?

I'm not a Champ Car fan because I believe the path to success is not through parking lot parades?

I'm not a Champ Car fan because I believe in road course racing in North America?

I'm not a Champ Car fan because I'm saddened by the fact that I can't PAY TO FLY OUT TO MORE ROAD COURSE RACES NEXT YEAR?

:shakehead

When a fan is being called "not a fan" because he's pissed off at not being able to spend money on attending races that are no longer there, there's something terribly wrong.

Champ Car hater? Yeah, I guess that's why I've been to more Champ Car races in the past two years than I ever went to before - because I hate the series. Good call, racer2c. Very good call. :saywhat:

[RichK]

Somebody point me to where the real Champ Car fans hang these days. This thread has made me sick to my stomach. I'm ashamed to call myself a Champ Car fans with elitist like those here.


I was labeled a cheerleader and even 'pollyanna' at SeventhGear, so being labeled a Champcar hater is ironic.

I don't like the current product, and so I'm an elitist?

[Dirty Sanchez]

I'm a hater? :laugh:

You're a cheerleader. :gomer:

[Sean O'Gorman]

So, the more that Champ Car has moved away from road courses, ovals, and U.S. events, the less successful it has gotten, right? Yet, we're supposed to support this because it helps the growth of the series???

Champ Car doesn't attract new fans because the tracks they now prefer to run at are boring. Champ Car doesn't attract new fans because they go after races in countries where the existance of a fanbase is irrevelent. If they keep this up, they will fail. What is so hard to understand about that?

[FCYTravis]

^
|
Hater.

[Fried]

So, the more that Champ Car has moved away from road courses, ovals, and U.S. events, the less successful it has gotten, right? Yet, we're supposed to support this because it helps the growth of the series???

Champ Car doesn't attract new fans because the tracks they now prefer to run at are boring. Champ Car doesn't attract new fans because they go after races in countries where the existance of a fanbase is irrevelent. If they keep this up, they will fail. What is so hard to understand about that?Problem with your theory is that the numbers don't support it. :( 5-10k at Laguna-- unquestionably the lowest attended race on the shedule.
I'd like to get some real numbers (not Brian keske's :gomer: ) on ALMS attendance at Mid-Ohio and RA, as well. (You should too before you continue to make arguments which aren't supported by facts).

[FCYTravis]

Right but Fried, which of the new races have been successful? Miami? Uh, no. Denver? Well, maybe. Las Vegas? Not so much - from a racing standpoint it was little better than an EARLfest. Korea? Oh wait, forget I said that.

That's a one-for-four ratio. Not so good, is it?

The numbers don't support street parades either.

[Sean O'Gorman]

Problem with your theory is that the numbers don't support it. :( 5-10k at Laguna-- unquestionably the lowest attended race on the shedule.
I'd like to get some real numbers (not Brian keske's :gomer: ) on ALMS attendance at Mid-Ohio and RA, as well. (You should too before you continue to make arguments which aren't supported by facts).

Clearly many of the fans got frustrated with the on-track product, yet, Champ Car has done little to fix it. Things like a new engine/chassis formula, or steps taken to increase field size and attract higher quality drivers have been virtually non-existant on the Champ Car managerial radar, and that, IMO, is a huge problem.

Oh yeah, I was LMAO at the Keske comment. :laugh:

[Spicoli]

Keske is a "Concerned fan" :gomer:

[Rob]

The "IRL can do no wrong" Lemmings drink Kool-Aid. racer2c, what's your beverage of choice?