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trish
11-29-04, 07:50 AM
http://www.speedtv.com/commentary/14130/

I feel bad that he has become so disillusioned. What is so great about these European trained drivers? I say nothing. American trained racers can do just as good of a job (see Allmendinger) if given the chance. These are the guys who race the same tracks as Champ Car and have some fan recognition. As a plus they also have engaging personalities. What's the point of a ladder series if you don't use the talent?

cart7
11-29-04, 08:51 AM
"The owners (in Champ Car) are brainwashed," said Fogarty, who won a close battle with Ryan Dalziel for this year's Atlantic crown. "They have this arrogant attitude that these expensive Champ Cars are so hard to drive. That's bull****. They're overpriced, that's all. :laugh:

Yeah, it's sad that so many in the past have been forced to go elsewhere as Cart owners looked to Europe and Brazil for their next driver. I don't know what the answer is. Things looked good with both AJ and RHR moving along in Champ cars but now Ryan seems to have no ride now. :shakehead

Spicoli
11-29-04, 09:11 AM
All I can say is WOW.

"Nobody will hire me so they all suck.":saywhat:















good luck there kiddo. :shakehead

jonovision_man
11-29-04, 09:27 AM
The new owners seem on top of it though... KK said on Windtunnel than any new entries to his team would likely be from Atlantics.

He who pays the piper calls the tune, CCWS is pouring a lot into the teams so they might as well demand drivers who fit their marketing objectives.

Mike Kellner
11-29-04, 09:46 AM
I think the biggest problem with the foreign drivers is most of them view ChampCars as a stepping stone to F1. The number one criteria for drivers has to be getting those who feel the have arrived at their goal when they get in a ChampCar. It takes time to build stars, and then they have to stay around if they are going to benefit the series.

If ChampCar becomes more of a Pan American series, it could become the destination of choice for South American drivers. I have no problem with non US drivers as long as they plan on spending the rest of their career in a ChampCar.

mk

RaceGrrl
11-29-04, 10:27 AM
All I can say is WOW.

"Nobody will hire me so they all suck.":saywhat:







good luck there kiddo. :shakehead

Yep. That kind of attitude is sure to win friends and influence people.

jonovision_man
11-29-04, 10:33 AM
I think the biggest problem with the foreign drivers is most of them view ChampCars as a stepping stone to F1. The number one criteria for drivers has to be getting those who feel the have arrived at their goal when they get in a ChampCar. It takes time to build stars, and then they have to stay around if they are going to benefit the series.

If ChampCar becomes more of a Pan American series, it could become the destination of choice for South American drivers. I have no problem with non US drivers as long as they plan on spending the rest of their career in a ChampCar.

mk

It's not just international drivers who have an eye on F1... from that article:

Fogarty: "But I didn't grow up in the midwest and ovals didn't have a place in my heart like Monaco or LeMans."

I don't think there's a young OW driver out there who doesn't want to be in F1.

jono

Sean O'Gorman
11-29-04, 10:35 AM
I don't feel any pity for him. It isn't like he is poor and is going to starve without racing cars, and there are opportunities elsewhere for him (like ALMS, obviously).

However, this wouldn't be a problem if Champ Car would actually concentrate on building their series in their own country. I'm sure that a crap street race in Argentina is going to do wonders for him as far as finding the sponsorship necessary to move up. Then again, who needs Fogarty when we can have Mazzacane. :rolleyes:

nrc
11-29-04, 10:42 AM
All I can say is WOW.

"Nobody will hire me so they all suck.":saywhat:

good luck there kiddo. :shakehead

Actually, someone has already hired him. Just not one the team owners that he won in front of week in and week out in Champ car's alleged feeder series.

Fogarty proved himself in every series Champ car offered up as part of their "ladder" yet it got him no interest from Champ car. Something is wrong with this picture.

RTKar
11-29-04, 11:24 AM
" And I understand why lots of road racers went to the IRL because you've got to make a living.

Rice's accomplishments, along with A.J. Allmendinger's impressive rookie year in Champ Car and Ryan Hunter-Reay's dominating win at Milwaukee, gave Formula Atlantic grads and Americans in general a much-needed boost of confidence among the Champ Car owners. At least it should have.
"The owners (in Champ Car) are brainwashed," said Fogarty, who won a close battle with Ryan Dalziel for this year's Atlantic crown. "They have this arrogant attitude that these expensive Champ Cars are so hard to drive. That's bull****. They're overpriced, that's all.

"Are they challenging? Sure. But to think owners just go for Europeans burns me because we've proved we can kick their ass with a fair chance."

He hopes Champ Car makes it, even without him.

"It's frustrating and it's maddening but it is what it is," he surmises. "I think open wheel racing in this country needs American drivers. I just won't be one of them."

Champcar better wake up. Situations like this make me wonder whether Champcar has a clue on how to market to what should be, primarily, an American audience. Losing a pedigreed, "self" produced driver leaves me shaking my head. Look at what the Mexican and Canadian drivers have done for their respective country's races. A good natured international rivalry is a no brainer marketing tool. Why bother with any support series, if the participants rarely move up? Especially in these days of more or less "self" funded teams, this is opportunity lost. :shakehead

Mike Kellner
11-29-04, 12:18 PM
SOG writes . . .

"a crap street race in Argentina"

I would rather attend a "a crap street race in Argentina" than the last crap oval I attended in Chicago. I was roasted in stands that had no shade in the afternoon, there was nothing for sale to drink other than beer, and the race was a no passin' parade with a podium fulla Brazillians. A street race in the same area would have been far more interesting, and more fun, even if the result would have been the same.

Last I heard, Argentina was full of race fans who will buy tickets and support the sponsors. The reason we have so many South American drivers up here is because in South America there are fans and sponsors for open wheel. There apparently are no US companies willing to sponsor an open wheel driver. They would rather put one more progeny of the local trailerpark in NASCAB. Screw them. I'd rather watch Brazillians racing on any street course any where in the world than an open wheel series remade to be like NASCAR. If ChampCar dropped all its ovals I would not shed a tear. The oval fans have decided they prefer morons and bumpercars in fixed races. My life will continue to be just fine without them as fellow race fans.

Sean, if your idea of racin' is a bunch of Americans on ovals, watch NASCAR. They have the xenophobe market locked down. ChampCar will not make it trying to emulate them. Boy George already proved that to be a losing idea.

What will work is to go where the customers are, which is South America. Any race that is more than 200 miles away is a TV event for most people anyway, so who cares where the TV signal originates?

mk

Sean O'Gorman
11-29-04, 12:44 PM
SOG writes . . .

"a crap street race in Argentina"

I would rather attend a "a crap street race in Argentina" than the last crap oval I attended in Chicago. I was roasted in stands that had no shade in the afternoon, there was nothing for sale to drink other than beer, and the race was a no passin' parade with a podium fulla Brazillians. A street race in the same area would have been far more interesting, and more fun, even if the result would have been the same.

Last I heard, Argentina was full of race fans who will buy tickets and support the sponsors. The reason we have so many South American drivers up here is because in South America there are fans and sponsors for open wheel.

...

Sean, if your idea of racin' is a bunch of Americans on ovals, watch NASCAR. They have the xenophobe market locked down. ChampCar will not make it trying to emulate them. Boy George already proved that to be a losing idea.

...

mk

Way to jump to conclusions, Mike.

Xenophobe? Hardly, but it isn't like labeling people because you can't make a valid point is anything unusual for you. I just said the other day I'm hoping for Tonis Kasemets to end up in Champ Car in 2005. I bet you don't even know who he is.

I mentioned nothing about ovals, although I would like to see a good number of them on the schedule. With a proper package (as in, not the current outdated chassis/engine combo, or an IRL-like downforcemobile), the ovals would be very entertaining. Besides, like them or not, it is what most of America associates with auto racing.

Argentina's fan base is huge? Why hasn't there been an F1 race there in ages? What Argentinean drivers have made their way through open wheel racing anytime lately? Even Brazil doesn't care about Champ Car or the IRL anymore.


There apparently are no US companies willing to sponsor an open wheel driver. They would rather put one more progeny of the local trailerpark in NASCAB. Screw them.

Maybe they wont sponsor any open wheel drivers, because it makes no financial sense? There are too few races in this country, and no fan base, because potential fans aren't getting hooked. Too many uninteresting street races, no promotion, etc.


I'd rather watch Brazillians racing on any street course any where in the world than an open wheel series remade to be like NASCAR. If ChampCar dropped all its ovals I would not shed a tear. The oval fans have decided they prefer morons and bumpercars in fixed races. My life will continue to be just fine without them as fellow race fans.

I don't even know what to say to this garbage. Enjoy your elitism, I guess. :rolleyes:


What will work is to go where the customers are, which is South America. Any race that is more than 200 miles away is a TV event for most people anyway, so who cares where the TV signal originates?

Maybe because people like to watch races that are on both during a convenient viewing time, and live?

Dr. Corkski
11-29-04, 12:58 PM
Let's see, the guy has won the championship in the both years that he ran a full season in the series supposed top feeder series, and he doesn't have a ride, while a guy who could not win anything has now kicked a former race winner out of a top seat. :thumdown:

cart7
11-29-04, 01:05 PM
Why even bother to have a ladder like Atlantics when people like ALMS and the earl utilize it better than the guys/series who own it? :shakehead

jonovision_man
11-29-04, 01:11 PM
Argentina's fan base is huge? Why hasn't there been an F1 race there in ages? What Argentinean drivers have made their way through open wheel racing anytime lately? Even Brazil doesn't care about Champ Car or the IRL anymore.


F1 races are a tad hard to come by... I don't think that's a fair way to asses the fanbase. It's popular in Finland, they don't have a race. The US didn't have a race for a few years, yet when they came back, 200,000 fans. Even Britain came within a hair of losing their race... it's more political than just putting a race where fans are. Argentina is also just starting to turn around their economy after the financial melt-down.

As for Brazil, how do you draw that conclusion? I've met so many Brazilian fans out there who are interested, I'd be a bit surprised if a race there didn't fair well, whether it was CCWS or IRL.

jono

pchall
11-29-04, 01:22 PM
I would rather attend a "a crap street race in Argentina" than the last crap oval I attended in Chicago. I was roasted in stands that had no shade in the afternoon, there was nothing for sale to drink other than beer, and the race was a no passin' parade with a podium fulla Brazillians. A street race in the same area would have been far more interesting, and more fun, even if the result would have been the same.

The last "crap oval" I attended in Chicago featured Christiano DaMatta passing four or five cars for position before the first pit stop. After that it was a runaway, but he was clearly the fastest guy that day.

The Cheap Ganassi/Bidwell Family oval was a nasty little paperclip, but some guys actually raced there. Of course, there was also Kenny Brack's five wide into turn 1 practice for his IRL career...

Mike Kellner
11-29-04, 01:45 PM
I don't even know what to say to this garbage. Enjoy your elitism, I guess.

Oh, hey, I am wounded to the heart. Anything but calling me a elitist. What is worse, I am an elitist who is too busy to watch minor league races, so I lose trivia contests concerning new drivers.

Fangio was from Argentina.

We had good events and sponsors once, Tony ruined that. That was the past. It's gone, and likely is not coming back. Now all the US sponsors want NASCAR. ChampCar is going to have to go where the fans and sponsors are. Why else would ChampCar and CrapWagon have so many South American drivers? It is because there is fan support down there. That is the reason South American companies sponsor drivers. If NASCAR was popular down there, it would be full of Brazillians.

Perhaps we need to get more South Americans into the ladder series if Americans are not likely to find sponsorship for the main series. I mean why waste our ladder series on people who are unlikey to make it into the big time.

mk

Spicoli
11-29-04, 03:45 PM
Actually, someone has already hired him. Just not one the team owners that he won in front of week in and week out in Champ car's alleged feeder series.

Fogarty proved himself in every series Champ car offered up as part of their "ladder" yet it got him no interest from Champ car. Something is wrong with this picture.

I totally agree. Seriously. But the prollem is how he is handling it. Are all the spots filled for 05 yet?

See?

I'm not Jon, and I certainly appreciate his frustration. I think he'd be excellent for the series, but calling out KK & Company in public like that CAN'T be good.

Ziggy
11-29-04, 05:01 PM
The problem is money. Lack of it on the American's side, and greed on the side of the owners. Face it, Jon could wipe a pretty mean floor with the likes of Gaston and Rudolfo. Why is his butt not in the seat? MONEY. period, endpoint.

Racing has always been paid for by wankers. Each "marquee" team has a ride buyer in the second car. Even the vaunted Ryan Ray had Daddy's pockets pushing him along. Faster the cars got, the higher the price of poker.

I had a discussion on this topic just this very afternoon. For all the ballyhoo on Buddy Rice being an American winner of the Indy five, think about this. Kenny does not have an accident, Rice is left twisting in the wind, and Tony has a sixth straight hobo on the Borg Warner....... so their "vision" is flawed as well.

Fogarty, etal should be pizzed. They trump this feeder series as meaningful, yet in the end, it all comes down to money. Rice is one lucky fella, the recipiant of fate. Rahal signed him to a contract the first time, then put him on ice by not letting him drive. Said he could not find the funding. Why did he sign him in the first place? MONEY. He thought he could get some. (more) These car owners dont care about growing anything other than THEIR BOTTOM LINE.

The only solution will come from someone brave enough and rich enough to actually develope a driver from Karts to Caviar. It's expensive, just ask Hunter Ray's pappy.

Ziggy

JoeBob
11-29-04, 05:01 PM
I can certainly understand Fogarty's frustration. He hasn't even gotten much by way of testing for open seats. RHR and Dinger got good opportunities, while Fogarty got zilch.

One thing to note is that he's another one who was taken under Bobby Rahal's wing, only to be left out to dry. Buddy Rice is another graduate of the "I went with Rahal and ended up on the street" list. (At least Buddy got another chance - after Fogarty turned that gig down.)

Spicoli
11-29-04, 05:24 PM
Itsd the whole damn sport.


Can anyone name anything they have seen BuddE Rice pimping since his big win? I sure can't. Not a thing. Was he even on a Wheaties box? Honda ad? Anything?






Thanks for fixing stuff ___king Tony :gomer:

RTKar
11-29-04, 05:54 PM
Itsd the whole damn sport.


Can anyone name anything they have seen BuddE Rice pimping since his big win? I sure can't. Not a thing. Was he even on a Wheaties box? Honda ad? Anything?


Thanks for fixing stuff ___king Tony :gomer:


Pretty much sums up open wheel racing in North America. Despite some glimmers of hope here and there, it seems to me the obstacle is practically too much to overcome, leaving our sport in a world of hurt. So much of this is really a chicken and egg thing...domestic drivers/ sponsors/TV ratings. Without Champcar ownership taking a calculated chance on the home grown talent being a part of the big puzzle, who and what will put the other pieces together?

L1P1
11-29-04, 07:04 PM
I think this is a good argument for placing further qualifications on who can be a Champ Car pilot. Perhaps you need to have placed in the top 20% in season points (or points position) in any of Atlantics, F1, F3000, IRL, Lemans Prototypes or NASCAR Nextel Cup (throw in any others if you please).

That would dry up some of the supply, raise the driver salaries, create more interest in the ladder series', and raise the level of competition.

Ziggy
11-29-04, 07:10 PM
Think about this. When did Chip, Roger, Patrick or Newman/Haas field an Atlantic or Lights team? They dont even watch the race. They are not looking "to bring anybody along". They figure if the guy has enough money, talent or none, they will eventually knock on their door anyhow. Gives them more time to fire up the BBQ for the guests, or bolt on the latest and greatest.

Tasman is the only organization I can think of who supported the Lights program from the get go. They morphed into a bonafide Champcar outfit, only to run out of funding when the stakes got really high. Horne was a true Racer who felt more responsibilty than the thickness of his wallet. Barry Green, yes, the promotor of St Petersburge, also had a Lights Team for a time. I do believe this was to seperate the Boss brothers from some of their cash however....... and Jeff Simmonds. Whatever, they were only around a year or two. (Mark Hotchkiss, name a wanker, they all sucked)

There is no North American feeder series. Ganassi fell into a sweet deal with Alex, Juan and Bruno due to some wrangling oversea's by greedy bast#*ds trying to hang onto drivers they had no cars for. Roger grabbed Gerry's charge only to lose him to an accident, while scooping up two brownskins who were not only immensely talented, but out of a job due to lack of funds on the car owners part. How Sebastian slipped through this ruse to actually get a ride is beyond me!

Ziggy

FCYTravis
11-29-04, 07:36 PM
In answer to Sean... Tonis is very close to announcing a full-time Toyota Atlantic campaign in 2005, yes, with his eyes on Champ Car in 2006.

It will be his own team organization- he already owns and drives an ex-RuSport Swift.

www.toniskasemets.com for all the news...

Sean O'Gorman
11-29-04, 08:04 PM
I think this is a good argument for placing further qualifications on who can be a Champ Car pilot. Perhaps you need to have placed in the top 20% in season points (or points position) in any of Atlantics, F1, F3000, IRL, Lemans Prototypes or NASCAR Nextel Cup (throw in any others if you please).

That would dry up some of the supply, raise the driver salaries, create more interest in the ladder series', and raise the level of competition.

Unfortunately, your idea would do nothing except drop the grids in half. It isn't the qualifications or the "ladder" itself that is the problem, it is the funding to climb it, and most importantly, to reach the top. Aside from the few owners who will actually pay a rookie (N/H, ruSport), the only way to make it to the top is to have personal funding from karts to Champ Car, such as RHR. Champ Car needs drastic change to generate sponsorship interest in the Champ Cars themselves, and more importantly, in the lower levels. And this goes for any driver, regardless of nationality. I don't think anyone can honestly tell me that the path that Champ Car is going down is going to fix this problem, but I'd love to be proven wrong.

And BTW, Ziggy's posts in this thread should be mandatory reading for anyone in the open wheel community.

pchall
11-29-04, 08:42 PM
Itsd the whole damn sport.


Can anyone name anything they have seen BuddE Rice pimping since his big win? I sure can't. Not a thing. Was he even on a Wheaties box? Honda ad? Anything?

Thanks for fixing stuff ___king Tony :gomer:

Budetto Risso is next in line for the Pastamatic sponsorship.

FCYTravis
11-29-04, 08:58 PM
Racing has always been paid for by wankers. Each "marquee" team has a ride buyer in the second car.
Ain't that the truth...

Winston Wolfe
11-29-04, 11:01 PM
Think about this. When did Chip, Roger, Patrick or Newman/Haas field an Atlantic or Lights team? They dont even watch the race. They are not looking "to bring anybody along". They figure if the guy has enough money, talent or none, they will eventually knock on their door anyhow. Gives them more time to fire up the BBQ for the guests, or bolt on the latest and greatest.

Tasman is the only organization I can think of who supported the Lights program from the get go. They morphed into a bonafide Champcar outfit, only to run out of funding when the stakes got really high. Horne was a true Racer who felt more responsibilty than the thickness of his wallet. Barry Green, yes, the promotor of St Petersburge, also had a Lights Team for a time. I do believe this was to seperate the Boss brothers from some of their cash however....... and Jeff Simmonds. Whatever, they were only around a year or two. (Mark Hotchkiss, name a wanker, they all sucked)

There is no North American feeder series. Ganassi fell into a sweet deal with Alex, Juan and Bruno due to some wrangling oversea's by greedy bast#*ds trying to hang onto drivers they had no cars for. Roger grabbed Gerry's charge only to lose him to an accident, while scooping up two brownskins who were not only immensely talented, but out of a job due to lack of funds on the car owners part. How Sebastian slipped through this ruse to actually get a ride is beyond me!

Ziggy
RIGHT ON, Ziggy....

I came to the same, frightening conclusion after this year's race at LB. Sure, they made the field of 18 at the eleventh hour, after some wranglings, and the race went on, much to the surprise of many who wished for the demise of CCWS \ CART, including FAF, FBRahole, and a host of other "mother-fathers" who we all know, and hate.
However, what struck me was the type of sponsorships that were left, or existed in the series at that time. The number of B2B opportunites and networkings that exist now, which help to keep the whole CCWS afloat. The Three Principles of CCWS ( I'm not fond of calling them the "3 Amigos", since it appears to be a TF slang term, and that place SUCKS) have basically started turning this whole thing into a business operation that must first thrive on its own, before it can yet again, have all of the glamor, high dollar, and big profile sponsorship that existed in the mid-to-late 90's...... I saw very few premier sponsors and lots and lots of peripheral ones..... y'know, ones for high tech companies, internet, computer, software, and the like.... Guys who seemed to be on the leading edge of their business and have a few buddies who like to race and they thought it would be cool to get their name on a big old transporter, get their name on a race car, and spend a weekend at the track as an "insider" while spending a few bucks, and gettting their name out there.
There were noticeably FEWER people in and around the paddock in April '04, and the atmosphere was one of more "surprise" that this thing was actually going off, and a race was happening....
I digress though.... It seems that many who post here are truly genuine BIG fans of Champ Car, OWRS, or CART, and their intentions are real and just on how to improve CCWS, but I cannot truly see how a driver actually sets their sights on driving a Champ Car, while the North American OWR scene is so fractured, and ratings and attendance for both series is lower than it really has every been. CCWS is in rebuilding mode, and doing a nice job, but there is a LONG way to go to even get back to where things used to be.... the EARL is in a death spiral, and has used up every trick in the book to get the dismal ratings they get. Clearly, neither is a "great" choice when considering a career option.
If you were an "up and coming" driver, where would you want to race ?
If you had lots of talent, and didnt have a father like RHR, what would you do ?
Look at some of the fellas who have their roots in Open Wheel and who hail from somewhere in NA, who are now racing in "another series" (Busch, NASCAR, ALMS, etc.).... Face it, from a true business standpoint, if you are looking at a future in Champ Cars, you're looking at a company who has alot to prove. If you're looking at the EARL, you need to update your resume and hope for the best.... If you're looking at one of the other NA racing series, you better get in line, because there are plenty of guys waiting for one of the seats to open up.... and you need to be ready to step in at a moments notice.
Until Champ Car has a definitive way to show drivers how they work their way into the top level of competition, and that top level of competition IS, in fact, CCWS, then they \ we, will continue to lose the talented, up and commers, to the "others" that exist in NA.... and be left with those who want to pay, and those who will pay to race in our series.
But the series has to survive, and then thrive, before we can start thinking about who calls the shots when it comes to who aspires to race in which series. Its a difficult pill to swallow when you consider how low things have gotten, when even the ladder series driver's dont get a look at a top level seat. But then again, there was David Empringham a few years ago, right... so maybe things are so much different after all ? :rolleyes:
(rant over).

bdogg187
11-30-04, 12:50 AM
NASCAR uses the "road to Indy" USAC as one of its best feeder series (although many ASA and NASCAR touring series drivers make it to Nextel Cup).

IRL's best drivers are atlantics grads.

And I think there may be more F3000 grads in Champ Car than in Formula 1.

Does anyone find this odd?

Spicoli
11-30-04, 08:38 AM
RIGHT ON, Ziggy....

I came to the same, frightening conclusion after this year's race at LB. Sure, they made the field of 18 at the eleventh hour, after some wranglings, and the race went on, much to the surprise of many who wished for the demise of CCWS \ CART, including FAF, FBRahole, and a host of other "mother-fathers" who we all know, and hate.
However, what struck me was the type of sponsorships that were left, or existed in the series at that time. The number of B2B opportunites and networkings that exist now, which help to keep the whole CCWS afloat. The Three Principles of CCWS ( I'm not fond of calling them the "3 Amigos", since it appears to be a TF slang term, and that place SUCKS) have basically started turning this whole thing into a business operation that must first thrive on its own, before it can yet again, have all of the glamor, high dollar, and big profile sponsorship that existed in the mid-to-late 90's...... I saw very few premier sponsors and lots and lots of peripheral ones..... y'know, ones for high tech companies, internet, computer, software, and the like.... Guys who seemed to be on the leading edge of their business and have a few buddies who like to race and they thought it would be cool to get their name on a big old transporter, get their name on a race car, and spend a weekend at the track as an "insider" while spending a few bucks, and gettting their name out there.
There were noticeably FEWER people in and around the paddock in April '04, and the atmosphere was one of more "surprise" that this thing was actually going off, and a race was happening....
I digress though.... It seems that many who post here are truly genuine BIG fans of Champ Car, OWRS, or CART, and their intentions are real and just on how to improve CCWS, but I cannot truly see how a driver actually sets their sights on driving a Champ Car, while the North American OWR scene is so fractured, and ratings and attendance for both series is lower than it really has every been. CCWS is in rebuilding mode, and doing a nice job, but there is a LONG way to go to even get back to where things used to be.... the EARL is in a death spiral, and has used up every trick in the book to get the dismal ratings they get. Clearly, neither is a "great" choice when considering a career option.
If you were an "up and coming" driver, where would you want to race ?
If you had lots of talent, and didnt have a father like RHR, what would you do ?
Look at some of the fellas who have their roots in Open Wheel and who hail from somewhere in NA, who are now racing in "another series" (Busch, NASCAR, ALMS, etc.).... Face it, from a true business standpoint, if you are looking at a future in Champ Cars, you're looking at a company who has alot to prove. If you're looking at the EARL, you need to update your resume and hope for the best.... If you're looking at one of the other NA racing series, you better get in line, because there are plenty of guys waiting for one of the seats to open up.... and you need to be ready to step in at a moments notice.
Until Champ Car has a definitive way to show drivers how they work their way into the top level of competition, and that top level of competition IS, in fact, CCWS, then they \ we, will continue to lose the talented, up and commers, to the "others" that exist in NA.... and be left with those who want to pay, and those who will pay to race in our series.
But the series has to survive, and then thrive, before we can start thinking about who calls the shots when it comes to who aspires to race in which series. Its a difficult pill to swallow when you consider how low things have gotten, when even the ladder series driver's dont get a look at a top level seat. But then again, there was David Empringham a few years ago, right... so maybe things are so much different after all ? :rolleyes:
(rant over).


Good post captain. :thumbup:

At least the chicks are(were) hotter in ChampCar. :gomer:

jonovision_man
11-30-04, 08:55 AM
NASCAR uses the "road to Indy" USAC as one of its best feeder series (although many ASA and NASCAR touring series drivers make it to Nextel Cup).

IRL's best drivers are atlantics grads.

And I think there may be more F3000 grads in Champ Car than in Formula 1.

Does anyone find this odd?

Not really. :)

F1 only brings in a handful of rookies every year, and cracking the top end of the grid is very tough, not a lot of turn-over in the top teams. There isn't room for all of the talented F3000, F3, etc. drivers that graduate from their system.

Those drivers look elsewhere, and inevitably that leads them to Champ Car or IRL. I guess it give them a glimmer of hope of still landing in F1 someday, and in the meantime pays generously enough.

That means fewer spots for the Atlantics guys, who seem to get squeezed over to the IRL, whose feeder system (IPS) is an absolute joke.

It's like a waterfall. :)

jono

Fio1
12-01-04, 01:30 AM
Fogarty is the real deal. Ever since I raced against him in 96 in the Skipy series, I've been eyeing his progress. Like Miller said, he should have been in Champcars after winning his first Atlantic title. The fact remains that he can step on the gas just as good as anyone in F3000 or Atlantics. Other then maybe Luizi, I don't see anybody better around. And, the facts remain that Champcar team owners look at money before talent. Look at Janis or Monteiro. Who the heck are these guys? Ya, they won race in Europe, but are they better then our drivers? No! You guys can't tell me these guys got there on merit. Guys like Fogarty, Simmons, etc will never get a chance unless they come up with money.

Like I said, Jon is one of the best around and it's too bad Champcar will lose out. I'm glad the guy has the b*lls to say what he means and also glad he didn't go to the IRL. Like Niki Lauda said, when it becomes a job, it's time to quit. And, ovals is not what the guy wants to do. Smart move in my book, no matter if that car won Indy 500 or not.

Best of luck Jon, I hope you win Le Mans, bro. :cool:

Ziggy
12-01-04, 01:41 AM
'member that dude Anthony Lazzaro?

'member that dude Steve Robinson?

'member that dude Zack Morioka? Now this cat ran FF 2000 and laid a butt smackin' on the field at Mid Ohio in 1997 at Mid Ohio so bad it was not even funny. Im sure the tech guys were looking for the second engine! Where did this guy go? Im sure he had talent, I saw him trounce a large field of FFords like he started four minutes early?

It's broke from bottom to top, due to lack of funding

here are some other memory joggers in case you were hitting the beer bongs pretty hard during the side show.

Eppringham
Bentham
Mears (clint) - who knows, maybe better in bigger car. Won races, USA
Gordin
Ave

This is only a couple of years of Autocorse I got laying here. Doing some research jogging MY MEMORY due to having just read the Zanardi book.

Jon should be commended for speaking his mind, and passing on getting his neck snapped off in one of those diabolical snitboxes they run at 16th and Georgetown. Atlantics a watered down series? Perhaps. Still, its the top rung on the "road to the big time". There is no road to the bigtime with fat tires and wings. The road to the big time starts in front of a bank, and the vehicle is an armored car

Ziggy

Fenster
12-01-04, 02:58 AM
...There is no road to the bigtime with fat tires and wings. The road to the big time starts in front of a bank, and the vehicle is an armored car

Ziggy


True that. :(

FCYTravis
12-01-04, 03:19 AM
What Ziggy said, again. :( :(

There's gobs of talent coming out of American feeder series. Adam Pecorari. Jason Bowles. Jon Fogarty. Ian Lacy. Tonis Kasemets. Bobby Wilson. Luis Schiavo. Erick Hansen (;)) Dan Di Leo. Scott Jenkins. Andrew Prendeville... the list goes on.

I watched 'em all this year, from the pit wall or from the flag station. They all deserve a shot at moving up... how many will get it?

Sucks. :(

FCYTravis
12-01-04, 03:36 AM
I guess I should admit I'm, in some small way, part of the problem... I'm working with a team planning a 2005 Star Mazda campaign, and how are we doing it? Yeah, you guessed it... looking for drivers to bring money. Ridebuyers-r-us.

Thankfully, one of the drivers we're close to signing is a standout karter with multiple championships to his name - someone who certainly won't be an embarassment out on course.

It's the symptom, not the cause. There's no ROI in road-racing right now. You can't sell sponsorships on Star Mazda cars with 0.05 TV ratings on Tuesday afternoons at 1:30. No sponsors, no racing.

So you go out and find anyone who can bring enough cash to turn it into speed and pray to the racing deities that he can at least passably imitate a professional racing driver. If he doesn't? Well, charge the crash damage to his credit card and put the shop overtime on his bill, too.

Below the top rung, I'll lay odds there aren't 10 drivers actually getting paid to drive a race car.

Sucks even more. I wish I knew how to fix it. :( :(

mueber
12-01-04, 09:00 AM
I’ve been an “I don’t care where they come from” person for years. I still am. Although I think an anti-American bias has developed in the series, the problem is funding, and until Americans develop an interest in open wheel again, I just don’t see how to stabilize Champ Car without first relying on ride buyers to get cars out on the grid.

The issue of ignoring the feeder series is valid, and I do think the owners are of a mind to look elsewhere, but frankly, Robin Miller is getting to be a pain in the butt on this issue. He seems to think the team owners should fund a WASPish, American, --Midwestern American at that—starting field because it will drag in spectators. Yet, we are fortunate to be able to put eighteen cars on the grid as it is, and some of the team owners are pouring millions of their own dollars into the series just to keep it afloat.

BTW, I’m from Indiana, and when I go to any kind of open wheel oval event, the crowds are miserable. So, I doubt the whole premise that fans will flock through the gates if the field is made up of redneck American sprinty car drivers or American wine and cheese loving road racers is faulty.

chop456
12-01-04, 09:21 AM
I saw very few premier sponsors and lots and lots of peripheral ones..... y'know, ones for high tech companies, internet, computer, software, and the like.... Guys who seemed to be on the leading edge of their business and have a few buddies who like to race and they thought it would be cool to get their name on a big old transporter, get their name on a race car, and spend a weekend at the track as an "insider" while spending a few bucks, and gettting their name out there.



This ring a bell?

http://www.blairracing.com/2001/slideshow/presentation08/images/600x394/003.JPG

Spicoli
12-01-04, 10:43 AM
This ring a bell?

http://www.blairracing.com/2001/slideshow/presentation08/images/600x394/003.JPG

Blair!

Who was driving?

Ed_Severson
12-01-04, 11:03 AM
Blair!

Who was driving?

Max Wilson.

Winston Wolfe
12-01-04, 01:39 PM
This ring a bell?

http://www.blairracing.com/2001/slideshow/presentation08/images/600x394/003.JPG

wasn't that a "one-off" or a few race deal back at Laguna in '01 ?

And that is EXACTLY what I was talking about.... lots of smaller, high tech sponsors that are putting forth dollars that help to keep the series afloat.

jonovision_man
12-01-04, 01:43 PM
I think ownership gets it...:
http://www.tsn.ca/auto_racing/news_story.asp?id=106548

Ranger and Valiante testing in Sebring...

Valiante:
"I'm just glad that some of the Champ Car team owners are seeing some potential in me and are willing to give some of the developmental series drivers a chance."

:thumbup:

jono

Jervis Tetch 1
12-01-04, 02:18 PM
wasn't that a "one-off" or a few race deal back at Laguna in '01 ?

And that is EXACTLY what I was talking about.... lots of smaller, high tech sponsors that are putting forth dollars that help to keep the series afloat.No Winston, the Blair team (originally Brooke Racing) was for the entire 2001 season.

Unfortunately there were several problems that kept this team from continuing its existence, one being the hostile takeover by Blair from Barry Brooke, a long-time and respected CART chief mechanic, but who didn't have too much team ownership experience nor racing business acumen sans his general manager duties at Project Racing Group (remember them?). Not all Brooke's fault as another business partner (Mathius Czobok) promised more sponsorship when none was prevalent.

Another--but less minor was the changing of driver Max Wilson to Alex Barron. One could forgive Wilson for not wanting to be in Champ Car anymore because he got the shaft before he turned a wheel at Sigma (another sad story). I always thought he could have been a good driver had he been given the proper backing (look at his Portland performance in 2001).

Finally, Blair just didn't have the proper money necessary from RedBack and he took his ball and went to the I*L to get a win thanks to Barron, but then nothing more was ever heard from them again. Sad and sordid.

oddlycalm
12-01-04, 06:52 PM
There's no denying the fact that losing Fogarty is a kick in the gut, but racing has been a wealthy mans hobby since the dawn of the post WWII era. Laying it all on CCWS seems a bit unfair. If, 5yrs from now, CCWS haven't done any sponsor development then we can point the finger.

The fact that does remain is that we have more than enough home grown talent to populate at least half the seats in the series. There are a lot of ingredients necessary to build the series and make it successful, but having North American drivers in roughly half the seats seems like a key ingredient to me. I'd also like to see one or more top Aussie driver in the series full time. We saw what I considered to be one of the best one off efforts in many years at Surfers this year, and the Ozzies and Kiwis have a been a strong part of Champcar history since the early 60's. :thumbup:

oc

RichK
12-01-04, 07:50 PM
I think ownership gets it...:
http://www.tsn.ca/auto_racing/news_story.asp?id=106548


They don't get it at all. Fogarty was also scheduled for this test, but a couple weeks ago Forsythe started talking about who might get Carpentier's seat, and Jon's name wasn't in his list.

jonovision_man
12-01-04, 08:21 PM
They don't get it at all. Fogarty was also scheduled for this test, but a couple weeks ago Forsythe started talking about who might get Carpentier's seat, and Jon's name wasn't in his list.

Wasn't Fogarty already committed to ALMS at that point?

Between RHR, AJ, and now Valiante and potentially Ranger, they are working on getting guys from the ladder system into the series, and that's positive.

There really aren't that many non-ride-buyer seats in CCWS at the moment, if they can land a few Atlantics guys rides that's a job well done in my books.

jono

Sean O'Gorman
12-01-04, 08:26 PM
Fogarty being offered a test and Fogarty being offered a ride that isn't contigent on bringing sponsorship are two entirely different things.

theunions
12-01-04, 08:35 PM
So...is Fogarty still actually going to do his promised Forsythe test, or is he not even interested in that at this point (hence teammate Figge getting the surprise call instead)?

RichK
12-01-04, 08:42 PM
Here's what Forsythe said regarding next season (reported on speedtv.com November 7th, only a few weeks before the tests):


“We’re looking at the opportunity to run a couple of young Czech drivers,” said Forsythe, “and we’re also going to test David Martinez (age 21) who won the Cupa Corona here in Mexico and deserves a chance."

Why the hell should anyone think anything will come of a test after Forsythe says this? I don't know if Fogarty is still testing or not, but he apparently has a signed contract with a top ALMS team. The alternative was YET ANOTHER "courtesy test" (for winning Atlantics).

It's obvious to me that Forsythe is looking for a paid seat. It doesn't sound like he's doing anything to land an Atlantic grad.

Dr. Corkski
12-01-04, 10:08 PM
Here's what Forsythe said regarding next season (reported on speedtv.com November 7th, only a few weeks before the tests):

“We’re looking at the opportunity to run a couple of young Czech drivers,” said Forsythe, “and we’re also going to test David Martinez (age 21) who won the Cupa Corona here in Mexico and deserves a chance."

Why the hell should anyone think anything will come of a test after Forsythe says this? I don't know if Fogarty is still testing or not, but he apparently has a signed contract with a top ALMS team. The alternative was YET ANOTHER "courtesy test" (for winning Atlantics).

It's obvious to me that Forsythe is looking for a paid seat. It doesn't sound like he's doing anything to land an Atlantic grad.Thank god someone like Gesus Forsythe is finally doing something about the epidemic of top teams favoring talented drivers over dudes with big checkbooks. :gomer:

oddlycalm
12-03-04, 03:45 PM
They don't get it at all. Fogarty was also scheduled for this test, but a couple weeks ago Forsythe started talking about who might get Carpentier's seat, and Jon's name wasn't in his list. Bad decisions and missed opportunities are what kill businesses. You can survive unforced errors, but as we saw with CART, if you don't at least get it right 50% of the time all the cash and intertia in the world won't save you. Hope they don't continue to overlook what has been and still appears to be a major blind spot. We need a promising young Czech driver in the series about as bad as I need a third ear.

oc

trish
12-03-04, 06:56 PM
So...is Fogarty still actually going to do his promised Forsythe test, or is he not even interested in that at this point (hence teammate Figge getting the surprise call instead)?
I thought he gave the test to Dalziel...

Tim
12-03-04, 07:21 PM
Figge tested earlier in the week in his place.

JLMannin
12-03-04, 09:26 PM
There's no denying the fact that losing Fogarty is a kick in the gut, but racing has been a wealthy mans hobby since the dawn of the post WWII era. Laying it all on CCWS seems a bit unfair. If, 5yrs from now, CCWS haven't done any sponsor development then we can point the finger.
oc

CART (nee champcar) has managed to live sereral years post Max Papis ("CART needs me more than I need CART"), so I think champcar will live without Fogarty as well.

Maybe he can take lessons from Robby Gordon on how to call youe engine a "pig" next.

oc - your point is well taken, as Charlie Nearburg has four more Champcar starts than Fogarty because he brought money. When it comes down to it, all racers are ride buyers - some are just talented enough to use someone else's money (aka a sponsor) to buy the ride as opposed to their own (or Daddy's)

nrc
12-03-04, 10:47 PM
When it comes down to it, all racers are ride buyers - some are just talented enough to use someone else's money (aka a sponsor) to buy the ride as opposed to their own (or Daddy's)

Schumacher is a ride buyer?

JLMannin
12-04-04, 12:30 AM
Schumacher is a ride buyer?

If he left Ferarri, would their budget be the same? Does he bring money to the team?

If you define ride buyer as a driver, who without a check in hand, would not be allowed to touch a car - then, no he is not a ride buyer. Not all racers fit neatly into just two boxes - hired for talent and fitted for a seat after the check clears.

Most drivers in F1 cannot secure their seats without bringing sponsor money to the table - does that make them ride buyers?

nrc
12-04-04, 02:04 AM
I'm not sure what your point is. Clearly there's a difference between Schumacher and Fabio.

There are drivers who have a seat because they are talented and a team that already has a sponsor will hire them for that talent because they want to win. That's one end of the spectrum. At the other is someone like Fabio who nobody would sponsor if he or his dad didn't have money and connections. Trying to throw a blanket over them and call them all ride buyers would be like calling Peyton Manning a "roster spot buyer."

Sean O'Gorman
12-04-04, 02:13 AM
Schumacher is a ride buyer?

Where did he get the money to do the training he recieved prior to F1?

Ziggy
12-04-04, 03:35 AM
I do believe Eddie Jordon was enough of a racer to reconize talent when he saw it. Mike had done very well for himself in the Euro Feeder system, and Jordon was looking for a spark while his regular shoe was nursing some ailment (forget what it was, racing deal I think, deCesaris possibly) Mike qualifyed out of sight, but burned the clutch up on the practice starts. He puked at the green light and drove around to retirement (or stayed stationary, my memory is gone and the book are in the other room)

He then got offered a shot by Flavio, who buddy frockked Eddie right out of a talent. Love those F1 guys. Reading AZ's book, he had both of them on the hook (Schumacher and Zanardi) and was really at wits end as who to sign. It was a clusterbang to the very end, with AZ going ahead and signing a temp deal with a no hope grid squid (as he was out of work and seeing the career door slammed in his face)

OK, quiz next year, 12-04-05

Dr. Corkski
12-04-04, 04:54 AM
I do believe Eddie Jordon was enough of a racer to reconize talent when he saw it. Mike had done very well for himself in the Euro Feeder system, and Jordon was looking for a spark while his regular shoe was nursing some ailment (forget what it was, racing deal I think, deCesaris possibly) Mike qualifyed out of sight, but burned the clutch up on the practice starts. He puked at the green light and drove around to retirement (or stayed stationary, my memory is gone and the book are in the other room)

He then got offered a shot by Flavio, who buddy frockked Eddie right out of a talent. Love those F1 guys. Reading AZ's book, he had both of them on the hook (Schumacher and Zanardi) and was really at wits end as who to sign. It was a clusterbang to the very end, with AZ going ahead and signing a temp deal with a no hope grid squid (as he was out of work and seeing the career door slammed in his face)

OK, quiz next year, 12-04-05It was Betrand Gachot that Schumacher replaced. Mr. Gachot missed all but the last race of that season because he had some issues to deal with in a British prison.

nrc
12-04-04, 11:22 AM
Where did he get the money to do the training he recieved prior to F1?

"is" "was" - look them up. It's fair to say that everyone starts out by buying their ride.