View Full Version : How to save Formula Atlantic
Guarantee a Champ car ride for the champion. It would be worth the expense for Champ car to keep the series going. They need the feeder and they need the support events.
manic mechanic
10-15-04, 12:23 AM
Agreed that ChampCar needs the feeder series, but the formula needs a serious revamp to have any chance at growth.
Over-downforced, underpowered cars are the stock-in-trade of another series we know and despise..the only difference is that Atlantics turn both directions. Many of the drivers have stated that the cars are "too easy to drive" in their current configuration, but it's nothing that an additional 100+ horsepower wouldn't cure... :thumbup:
It is also not cost effective for many teams/drivers to run a full season of Atlantics when the purses are as low as they have been in recent years.
IMHO, Formula BMW should take the place of Atlantic, and Atlantic should (with revisions) should step up to the spot vacated by Indy Lights.
Any thoughts?
manic
FCYTravis
10-15-04, 03:51 AM
FBMWs are way too slow to replace Atlantics. They're slower than FF2000 Zetecs!
Rogue Leader
10-15-04, 07:52 AM
Agreed that ChampCar needs the feeder series, but the formula needs a serious revamp to have any chance at growth.
Over-downforced, underpowered cars are the stock-in-trade of another series we know and despise..the only difference is that Atlantics turn both directions. Many of the drivers have stated that the cars are "too easy to drive" in their current configuration, but it's nothing that an additional 100+ horsepower wouldn't cure... :thumbup:
It is also not cost effective for many teams/drivers to run a full season of Atlantics when the purses are as low as they have been in recent years.
IMHO, Formula BMW should take the place of Atlantic, and Atlantic should (with revisions) should step up to the spot vacated by Indy Lights.
Any thoughts?
manic
I agree. I spoke to Tagliani and he said something about it costing him almost 2 million in sponsorship to run an Atlantic, and that was 6 years ago! I can only imagine now. I cant imagine theres 2 million in purses to win. Something needs to be done to get people out there, theres a Formula Renault Team I was supposed to drive for this year here on Long Island (sponsorship killed me) who would love to run atlantic but cant afford it not see the cost benefit of it.
How to save Formula Atlantic
....make it the new road to NASCAR...
•Switch to a spec, sealed engine that will last the whole season.
•Aluminum wings
•Heavier duty gearbox
•Attract new teams
•Switch to a spec, sealed engine that will last the whole season.
•Aluminum wings
•Heavier duty gearbox
•Attract new teams
take away haas' exclusive supplier contract
devilmaster
10-15-04, 02:07 PM
Can we get JT to chime in on this?
Although I already think I know his answer..... ;)
Steve
•Switch to a spec, sealed engine that will last the whole season.
•Aluminum wings
•Heavier duty gearbox
•Attract new teams
Sounds pretty much like Star Mazda right now. The new cars are fairly close to Atlantic laptimes, and there are quite a few teams competing.
Sean O'Gorman
10-15-04, 02:44 PM
Does Champ Car even know they have an Atlantic series? Or any sort of ladder? Whatever happened to the karting connection? :confused:
Ditch the spec chassis and engines. Honda, BMW, Mazda, etc. club racers can make 240 hp for much cheaper than what an Atlantic 4A-GE costs. 240 isn't enough anyway, needs to be in the 400-500 hp range.
Make all Atlantics broadcasts same day or live, and get the freakin BMWs on TV too. Actually promoting the series would help as well. The lower series always get treated like red headed step children by Champ Car, CART, IRL, etc., so is it any wonder that no one notices them? When was the last time someone even posted in this forum before this thread? When I went to my one Winston Cup race back in '99, the BGN race on Saturday was treated as just as important of an affair as the main event, with driver intros, etc. It was much more than just time filler like Atlantics and F-BMW are treated like. I'd also lower entry fees to try and attract local SCCA FA drivers to fill out the field.
FCYTravis
10-15-04, 02:49 PM
If you make the new Atlantics 500hp, it'll make no sense to attract club Atlantics - they'll still be running 240hp Toyota engines. I doubt that many will be interested in serving as moving chicanes for cars with twice their horsepower.
Before you suggest that the club Atlantics rules be changed, that won't happen. SCCA isn't about to let a 500hp formula car into Club Racing. Hell, you should have seen the **** hit the fan when Ralph Sanchez slipped an Indy Light into FS when nobody was looking...
Sean O'Gorman
10-15-04, 02:50 PM
C2. :D
FCYTravis
10-15-04, 02:52 PM
You'd have to run it as a second race. The speed differentials would be too great to run it within the 500hp "Atlantics" race.
Sean O'Gorman
10-15-04, 02:54 PM
Fine, then. If they kept current specs, lower the entry fees significantly. If I had to choose between running in a club race with a field full of FCs or running in an Atlantics race, I'd rather do the Atlantics race.
If the cars were faster, then forget what I said.
C2. :D
I think they'd have to call it C3.
Sounds pretty much like Star Mazda right now. The new cars are fairly close to Atlantic laptimes, and there are quite a few teams competing.
Somewhat, but the new Renesis Mazda engine isn't lasting the whole season and Star Mazda chassis aren't as advanced as an Atlantic. Atlantics seem to be about 4-5 seconds per lap faster just about every track they both run at.
I know that Formula Renault doesn't have the best rep in these places, but if the V6 formula renault engine really goes the whole season without a rebuild and produces 400 hp, that should be a target for the Atlantic pro engine.
If American open wheel racing were healthy we could have a healthy FA series and a 400+ horsepower series as an intermediate step on the way to Champ car. Like, oh say, back in 1995. Unfortunately for now I think we need to settle for making FA affordable and worthwhile again.
I guess Forsythe will test Jon Fogarty and the BMW champion in a champ car. But token tests are really just window dressing. Jon Fogarty could be the next Jimmy Vasser, but he's more likely to end up a driving coach somewhere at this point. How many ladder championships do you have to win to get a Champ car ride?
BTW, Rahal had taken over the Stars of Tomorrow program and he took it with him. I guess now it's part of the "Road to Indy".
Sean O'Gorman
10-15-04, 05:30 PM
If American open wheel racing were healthy we could have a healthy FA series and a 400+ horsepower series as an intermediate step on the way to Champ car. Like, oh say, back in 1995. Unfortunately for now I think we need to settle for making FA affordable and worthwhile again.
It is a pretty crappy problem, isn't it? The ladder series' need to be healthier in order to help Champ Car, succeed, but it is too hard to fix the ladder series' when there is no interest/$$$ due to the struggles of Champ Car. :(
Somewhat, but the new Renesis Mazda engine isn't lasting the whole season and Star Mazda chassis aren't as advanced as an Atlantic. Atlantics seem to be about 4-5 seconds per lap faster just about every track they both run at.
I know that Formula Renault doesn't have the best rep in these places, but if the V6 formula renault engine really goes the whole season without a rebuild and produces 400 hp, that should be a target for the Atlantic pro engine.
You're right, but keeping in mind nrc's post below yours, the Star Mazda series is a ready-made series, already well-supported (by a Ford company), well-organized and with big fields.
41 cars at the finale this weekend.
You're right, but keeping in mind nrc's post below yours, the Star Mazda series is a ready-made series, already well-supported (by a Ford company), well-organized and with big fields.
41 cars at the finale this weekend.
Probably the best single seater series in North America right now (good organization, decent cost, good TV, big grids). I was just saying that a Formula Mazda chassis is not an Atlantic chassis.
When you look at the size of the Formula Mazda grids (around 30 cars) it's clear that the Atlantic just isn't providing enough value for the cost. Some others have suggested moves to cut expenses and that's important, but I think it's just as important to make sure it's a productive step on the ladder.
If you can win two Atlantic championships and still need to bring money for a Champ car ride, why not run something else and save your money?
Winston Wolfe
10-21-04, 01:09 AM
When you look at the size of the Formula Mazda grids (around 30 cars) it's clear that the Atlantic just isn't providing enough value for the cost. Some others have suggested moves to cut expenses and that's important, but I think it's just as important to make sure it's a productive step on the ladder.
If you can win two Atlantic championships and still need to bring money for a Champ car ride, why not run something else and save your money?
Since pretty much everyone here despises, or at least resents, Toyota (and Honda for that matter!), why dont we support the move to just get rid of T-Atlantics, and bust a move over to the Mazda series (which has TV, specs, a long term plan, decent equipment, a pretty full grid most weeks and decent costs ) as a support series for Champcar (powered by Ford), who also owns Mazda ???? Am I missing something besides the Toyota contract is up shortly ?
Since pretty much everyone here despises, or at least resents, Toyota (and Honda for that matter!), why dont we support the move to just get rid of T-Atlantics, and bust a move over to the Mazda series (which has TV, specs, a long term plan, decent equipment, a pretty full grid most weeks and decent costs ) as a support series for Champcar (powered by Ford), who also owns Mazda ???? Am I missing something besides the Toyota contract is up shortly ?
Yes.
•Champ Car laying off the entire Toyota Atlantic Championship staff.
•Breach of contract with Toyota, Yokohama, BG Products, Swift Engineering, etc...
•Star Mazda has a sanctioning and scheduling agreement with IMSA/ALMS.
Yes.
•Champ Car laying off the entire Toyota Atlantic Championship staff.
•Breach of contract with Toyota, Yokohama, BG Products, Swift Engineering, etc...
•Star Mazda has a sanctioning and scheduling agreement with IMSA/ALMS.
It would be a much better idea to change the spec to a mildly turbocharged and air restricted Ford Focus 2.0l with about 400 HP and toughening up the gearbox. The current chassis could handle it with engine train upgrades: it has a lot more downforce than the current 240 Toyota ponies supply. Champar should also ask Toyota is they want to pony up with something more than ancient NA engine in the current spec. No use burning bridges on every decision.
devilmaster
10-28-04, 04:18 PM
Here's my two bits.
And this was before Toyo announced they were back:
I think a serious look has to go to completely revamping the series.
And my suggestion would be to look at a series like barber pro.
Make Atlantics a spec, pay to race series.
The series owns a new set of cars, that should last 3 to 5 years, to ensure profitability over time. Use slightly tweaked Ford stock engines. (big powerful engines are back in vogue. no reason why Atlantics couldn't exploit that) a 4 or 5 hundred HP engine probably wouldn't be a stretch. Wedge some truck engine in there. Series runs the mechanics, transports the cars and such.
In the end, if you can get the price tag down to say 350 to 500 grand for a driver to run a full year of atlantics, then you may get more cars in than this year. If nothing else, the price tag to run a car drops about half.
Steve
Here's my two bits.
And this was before Toyo announced they were back:
I think a serious look has to go to completely revamping the series.
And my suggestion would be to look at a series like barber pro.
Make Atlantics a spec, pay to race series.
The series owns a new set of cars, that should last 3 to 5 years, to ensure profitability over time. Use slightly tweaked Ford stock engines. (big powerful engines are back in vogue. no reason why Atlantics couldn't exploit that) a 4 or 5 hundred HP engine probably wouldn't be a stretch. Wedge some truck engine in there. Series runs the mechanics, transports the cars and such.
In the end, if you can get the price tag down to say 350 to 500 grand for a driver to run a full year of atlantics, then you may get more cars in than this year. If nothing else, the price tag to run a car drops about half.
Steve
I disagree. In a top level development series a driver needs to be working in a team environment like in the premier divisions.
devilmaster
10-29-04, 02:39 PM
I disagree. In a top level development series a driver needs to be working in a team environment like in the premier divisions.
In a perfect world, I'd agree with that premise, easy. But the thread topic is how to save Atlantics. There are no teams anymore. Atlantics next year will look like indy lights in its final year. (and 12 cars, hugging the bottom in single file at MIS was not fun to watch.)
the key to my idea is the final price tag to run 1 driver for 1 year. If its 750,000 or more, forget it. The idea is to get faster cars (than now), and cheaper (than now) to make it more likely drivers can bring sponsors, and larger fields, at the same time, giving the drivers more HP to hopefully train them better to move up.
Lets try a hypothetical and i'll lay my idea completely on the table.
20 cars (newly built, perhaps a contract to Lola to make them happy and give them some extra business), 10 races (no overseas, assuming there are 10 races in the Americas) and a full season costs $500,000 per driver. That means the series garners 10 million a year from driver payments. Make the cars last 3 years minimum, to spread the payments over that time. My original idea was to get Ford to offer up stock engines that could be tweaked to give 400-500 hp. (truck engines come to mind, even though it'd be a bitch to wedge them in there). Like Barber Pro, the entire series comes in about 4 or 5 trucks(iirc). A set number of mechanics to work on the whole series of cars. Tires that last the whole weekend or 2. Purses, if they have them, are spread evenly so that all drivers are ensured of a little spending money and that they're expenses can be somewhat covered. Each driver gets a driver-coach to help with setup and the like. Drivers can choose things like wing and perhaps shock setups to help differentiate the field.
Since my idea assumes Champcar is heavily involved in this, and I agree with your sentiment, easy - drivers will be paired up with Champcar teams each weekend. Each driver rotates through with a Champcar team, and works on that team for the weekend in a mentoring program. That way, each team in champcar will get a chance to look at each driver up and close, work with them, and gives teams a chance to scout the 'homegrown' talent. The series winner should be able to secure a season of champcar, hopefully. If they can afford it, give the winner to a team for a season.
[edit=addon idea]To take it one step further, if you can aquire a presenting sponsor and a couple associate series sponsors, set the sponsor payment high enough to not only pay for the series sponsorship, but they also get their logo on the series champion's car in Champcar. [edit]
Can this work? I don't know. But i see this as the only possible way of keeping TA around for years to come.
Steve
devilmaster
09-23-05, 04:56 PM
In a perfect world, I'd agree with that premise, easy. But the thread topic is how to save Atlantics. There are no teams anymore. Atlantics next year will look like indy lights in its final year. (and 12 cars, hugging the bottom in single file at MIS was not fun to watch.)
the key to my idea is the final price tag to run 1 driver for 1 year. If its 750,000 or more, forget it. The idea is to get faster cars (than now), and cheaper (than now) to make it more likely drivers can bring sponsors, and larger fields, at the same time, giving the drivers more HP to hopefully train them better to move up.
Lets try a hypothetical and i'll lay my idea completely on the table.
20 cars (newly built, perhaps a contract to Lola to make them happy and give them some extra business), 10 races (no overseas, assuming there are 10 races in the Americas) and a full season costs $500,000 per driver. That means the series garners 10 million a year from driver payments. Make the cars last 3 years minimum, to spread the payments over that time. My original idea was to get Ford to offer up stock engines that could be tweaked to give 400-500 hp. (truck engines come to mind, even though it'd be a bitch to wedge them in there). Like Barber Pro, the entire series comes in about 4 or 5 trucks(iirc). A set number of mechanics to work on the whole series of cars. Tires that last the whole weekend or 2. Purses, if they have them, are spread evenly so that all drivers are ensured of a little spending money and that they're expenses can be somewhat covered. Each driver gets a driver-coach to help with setup and the like. Drivers can choose things like wing and perhaps shock setups to help differentiate the field.
Since my idea assumes Champcar is heavily involved in this, and I agree with your sentiment, easy - drivers will be paired up with Champcar teams each weekend. Each driver rotates through with a Champcar team, and works on that team for the weekend in a mentoring program. That way, each team in champcar will get a chance to look at each driver up and close, work with them, and gives teams a chance to scout the 'homegrown' talent. The series winner should be able to secure a season of champcar, hopefully. If they can afford it, give the winner to a team for a season.
[edit=addon idea]To take it one step further, if you can aquire a presenting sponsor and a couple associate series sponsors, set the sponsor payment high enough to not only pay for the series sponsorship, but they also get their logo on the series champion's car in Champcar. [edit]
Can this work? I don't know. But i see this as the only possible way of keeping TA around for years to come.
Steve
That ^ was posted on October 29th, 2004. Don't I at least get a hat from the new CC Atlantics? ;) :D
FCYTravis
09-23-05, 06:21 PM
Well, a full season is going to cost a lot more than $500,000 for a driver who wants to be competitive for that $2 million bonus.
But it should at least be cheaper than the early-2000s version where teams were spending millions, plural.
devilmaster
09-23-05, 09:22 PM
Well, a full season is going to cost a lot more than $500,000 for a driver who wants to be competitive for that $2 million bonus.
But it should at least be cheaper than the early-2000s version where teams were spending millions, plural.
Don't wreck it for me now, trav..... as everyone here knows, i'm hardly ever right, so when I'm partially right, I want a prize for it.... ;)
And I agree with you on cost, but the Atlantics people said 5 to 6 hundred grand to run a team.... if it doesn't work out, thats their prob, not mine.... :laugh:
FCYTravis
09-24-05, 07:21 AM
Beware of series officials bearing numbers :rofl: :laugh:
Beware of series officials bearing numbers :rofl: :laugh:
Whenever a series offers a projected budget, double it to win the championship. Don't forget the teams profit margin as well.
JLMannin
09-26-05, 10:07 AM
How to save Formula Atlantic - brainstorm some ideas and post them on trackfurum. If the response is "that will be good for the series and the future of open wheel racing", then immediately scrap those ideas. If the response is "that is very bad for open wheel racing and will kill what is left", implement immediately. :)
Well, I think a big thing is to attract the likes of Bobby Rahal, Danny Sullivan, and Keke Rosberg again. Michael Andretti, Roberto Moreno. Get some names...Andretti, Rahal, Matos, Pecorari, Legge, Simmons, Dyson and a bunch more that should be there. Gotta build with content as well as affordability. Lobby some of these guys, don't just say "join up". The big prize was a great idea and the new chassis/more power plan was a given and so should be running more true road courses like Road America or Mid Ohio. I think it'd be a big mistake to limit this series to only tracks CC runs on. Running the youngsters in BMW and Mazda in concrete canyons was not a good idea and they told CC as much. The possibilities are endless.
oddlycalm
10-10-05, 09:02 PM
so when I'm partially right, I want a prize for it.... No problem, I left a slice of raisen pie under the bar next to where nrc keeps the urinal lozenges so it would stay fresh smelling. :thumbup:
It does appear that Atlantics will have new life breathed into it and that should bode well for attracting a pool of young talent. On the other hand top young talent ignored is opportunity missed so I hope that CCWS does a better job of getting the best young drivers into Champ Cars than has been the case in the past 10yrs.
oc
No problem, I left a slice of raisen pie under the bar next to where nrc keeps the urinal lozenges so it would stay fresh smelling. :thumbup:
Minty fresh.
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