Autoweek on reunification

[Don Quixote]

autoweek link (http://autoweek.com/cat_content.mv?port_code=autoweek&cat_code=motorsportsnews&loc_code=index&content_code=07101838)

Here we go again.

[Lizzerd]

As fans, let us all hope that as ambassador of open-wheel racing Good Will, Penske can convince Tony George to listen and work toward a common goal.

Yeah, right. THAT is sure to happen... :rolleyes: I might be able to accept FTG as a single board member, WITHOUT having a bigger voice than anyone else, I guess. But if they want to put him in charge, NO WAY!

No mention of chassis, engine (turbo/NA), percentage of ovals vs. road/street... IF this happens, those details MUST be worked out first.

[Lola_B70]

Penske can have his irl. Their ratings suck, their attendance is pathetic, and their high downforce, horrid looking boat achors are an insult to real racing.
Not to mention their venues are off the radar except the ruined tradition of Indy, greatest racing spectacle... don't think so, try TG's New and disapproved 'racing (trash) receptacle.
So, Irl, you need Champcar now don't you, Penske you need the people you turned your back on don't you? Because Champcar could quite possibly be the phoenix that American open wheel needs.

NO reunification! What so we fans can line YOUR pockets!?

Captain please go down with your ship or retire somewhere far away..."good will ambassador" my a$$.
Tony is an evil man and should have nothing to do with the pinnacle of American open wheel, Champcar.

Autoweek is so pro-earl, how quickly they forget or ignore what TG has done. For this I have never renewed my subscription.

I will not attend any racing formula that is involved/controlled even partially by TG.

Reunify with that souless, doomed demon and I will go to ALMS.

CCWS stay strong and independent of those who are trying to destroy you.

[Madmaxfan2]

The details are going to matter greatly. But look at this war this way, the IRL supporters are begining to realize that OWRS is not going away, that the three amigos war chest and business savy can really keep this split going for a long time as TG allows it. I think the owners now realize this, champ car is not folding, unification by subtraction is not going to happen, the IRL has really nothing to look forward to developements that can be considered promising. Thier continuing slow decline will not halt and OWRS is not going away. I think Penske is serious about it because his teams future as an image of a leading motorsports team is at risk. You can only stand on former glories for so long. The question is will TG bend? Will the final proposal truely benefit the ideas of Champ CAr. Have the lessions of the past really been learned?

[oddlycalm]

As long as you have the owner of the largest track/race and team owners running the show, along with too much leverage by a pair of self serving Japanese auto companies, there is little chance for real change or long term success. Not impossible, just very unlikely. It is very possible that a combined series could simply be a larger self-serving disaster.

Operationally however, if they decided to do this, it is very possible to do it quickly, easily and on the cheap. Easiest way to do that is to stick with crapwagons on ovals and the Lolas and Reynards on roads and streets until such time as a unified formula could be arrived at. Honda, Toyota and Cosworth all possess good examples of both engine packages as development on the champ car engine has essentially been frozen since Honda and Toyota left. Both should have no trouble getting their 2.6L turbos to work with the lower Rpm/higher boost specs. Champcar specs have been frozen for the last couple seasons, and all but a few teams already own both.

The only real upside is that austerity and competition between the series forced both to achieve a real economy on their equipment packages. The cost of competing in either series today is considerably less than it formerly was. Unfortunately, the quality of the racing is also not what it was formerly either.

Personally speaking, I have no real interest in the EARL teams, or crapwagon oval events. Seeing Bourdais driving a Dallara at the cookie cutter oval de jour is about is interesting to me as doing laundery. I'm sure that there are other however that would be anxious to see one group of drivers best the other.

oc

[cart7]

TG has proven time and time again that he's incapable of realizing the damage he's done and continues to do to OW racing. Goes to show what Greed and self absorption, along with millions of braincells numbed by cocaine can do to a person. Can Penske even lower himself to explain something like this in REALLY simple language so the inheritor can understand??

BTW, there's obviously something in this for the ol craptain. Those rumours about a big sponsor to replace Marlboro with the contingency that the split ends must be true. :rolleyes:

[Ziggy]

Autoweak is no friend of Champcar. It they are propogating it, its smells of con right off the bat

[Railbird]

imo, any type of "reunification" at this point in time would involve that s****box formula.

No thanks

It would also involve T&H playing the same games they have played all along.

Nope

I'm quite sure it would also involve the briantrust at 16th and Georgetown having considerable say.

Hell no.

Lastly, does anybody think Penske would pull this deal off without securing himself an advantage?

NO just doesn't have enough letters at times.

[fourrunner]

I was reading the article and saw things in there I hadn't seen anywhere else.. why would Autoweek have this info & no one else ... It doesn't make sense

Then I reached the part where they suggested that Brian Barnhardt head the unified series.. Said he has outstanding organizational skills ... yeah right.. just what successful series has he organized ... organized caos maybe!!

Lost me right there ... So much for a "Balanced" series ... The deck is again stacked in the IRL's favor

F'em !! :shakehead :shakehead

[Opposite Lock]

I'm still expecting another Autoweak update article, called "GOMERED!"

[RTKar]

Any type of "reunification" talk should only begin when CCWS has the upper hand......when Toyota and Honda leave the irl. I wouldn't trust anything said by the dark side.

[pchall]

Autoweek is so pro-earl, how quickly they forget or ignore what TG has done. For this I have never renewed my subscription.


My first thought was that the article was written right after a call from Fred Nation. Brian Brainfart to run the whole unified deal? :shakehead:

[sundaydriver2]

Look, it's Peniske that's calling for unification and stirring the pot. The three amigos are just going about their business. I have a really hard time believing these guys are just going to give in and come to some sorf of comprise without ever giving it the ole college try.

They may be listening and stringing things along, but there is no way in hell that Kk, JF and PG are going to cash it in. Time is on their side.

FTG

[Mike Kellner]

I think it is BS from rthe CrapWagonistas. Their series sucks big time, and everyone knows it. This is a way to convince the few sponsors they have left not to jump ship. You can bet the plan is to unify around CrapWagons, with Indy being the be all and end all, Roger having an unfair advantage, and Tony the Dope Fiend running the show.

Screw this idea. I'd rather watch soccer, golf, or even NASCAR.

mk

[Tall1]

Pimske is watching out for himself and nobody else. A re-unification doesn't have to happen, earl is in self-destruct mode. The family is tightening FTG's purse string, the cost of racing in earl is going to increase significantly next year IF they go road racing & attendance at the former CART venues will really be down. Be patient, earl will be a bad memory in another 2 years.

[Insomniac]

http://www.speedtv.com/articles/auto/indycar/11717/

They want to keep the N/As. I wonder who they are trying to appease? What a terrible idea.

[Rogue Leader]

http://www.speedtv.com/articles/auto/indycar/11717/

They want to keep the N/As. I wonder who they are trying to appease? What a terrible idea.

Thats the WORST part... those engins SUCK... There was even a whole story in RACER this month about the changes to the IRL cars where the drivers said a few times if you get slowed down behind a backmarker it takes a WHILE to get back up to speed....

Also 10 ovals 10 road courses??? err... try 15 Roads 5 ovals...

[chop456]

This is a simple grab for CCWS' successful event contracts. CCWS has nearly nothing to gain. Name a successful EARL even besides Indy* or a NASCAR-packaged ticket deal. Even the forced ticket buying races are difficult to call successes when half the people who already PAID for tickets decide not to show up.

No thanks, Toni.

[scanman]

http://www.speedtv.com/articles/auto/indycar/11717/

They want to keep the N/As. I wonder who they are trying to appease? What a terrible idea.
During the two-hour meeting in Pontiac, Mich., an 8-man board of directors was discussed (four from each side) as well as a schedule (10 ovals and 10 road/street courses) that combined each series strongest venues and retaining the IRL's normally-aspirated engine formula.

"If it would happen, everybody would win -- sponsors, fans, teams -- and I would certainly like to see it happen and go to the next level," said Forsythe, who has fielded Champ Cars on and off since 1982 and now operates a three-car team.

"But, at the end of the day, if there isn't a meeting of the minds and you run into a brick wall, you've got to turn left."

Neither Kalkhoven or Forsythe would disclose the obstacles and Penske could not be reached for comment.

Asked about the sense of urgency on Penske's part to get things back together after an eight-year war that has decimated television ratings, discouraged sponsors and alienated fans, Kalkhoven replied:

"They are so enthusiastic to do something with us it's almost frightening."

Added Forsythe: "Roger seemed very sincere and I appreciate him stepping forward. But we'll do whatever we can to make it happen and I think he conveyed that to Tony."

Is it just me, or is anybody else bothered by these comments from J.F.:confused:

[Audi_A4]

Unification will be painful for both sides but it best for the sport for sure.

[KobySon]

yeah, I don't like those comments from forsythe and don't like those n/a engines.

[Rob]

"If it would happen, everybody would win -- sponsors, fans, teams -- and I would certainly like to see it happen
Added Forsythe: "Roger seemed very sincere and I appreciate him stepping forward. But we'll do whatever we can to make it happen and I think he conveyed that to Tony."

Is it just me, or is anybody else bothered by these comments from J.F.:confused:
Well, if Tony says no then he will look even more like the villain. Perhaps that might be enough to encourage some folks to dump the IRL for good.

[Sean O'Gorman]

yeah, I don't like those comments from forsythe and don't like those n/a engines.

As far as technical specs go, I can deal with the engines, just not the chassis.

And as far as the politics, aside from not wanting TG to run the whole thing, all I want is one series so we can get back to the business of putting full fields of quality cars and drivers on the grid and fans back in the stands in North America.

[mueber]

Talk about “reunification”, we were never unified in the first place, assumes that Tony George is rational. He is not, and, in this case, that Roger Penske has it within his psyche to put the sport before self-interest. He has never done that in his life.

Move on.

[Methanolandbrats]

Why the hell should Champcar unify with a series that has no fans, greedy old-school owners who care more about cashing checks than racing, ****ty cars, oval races NOBODY cares about, morons for leaders and junk motors? Just let the IRL rot.

[Sean O'Gorman]

Why the hell should Champcar unify with a series that has no fans, greedy old-school owners who care more about cashing checks than racing, ****ty cars, oval races NOBODY cares about, morons for leaders and junk motors? Just let the IRL rot.

Why the hell should Indycar unify with a series that has no fans, greedy old-school owners who care more about cashing checks than racing, aging cars that are impossible to pass, road races NOBODY cares about, morons for leaders and spec motors?

Like it or not, one series is better than zero. :(

[scanman]

"During the two-hour meeting in Pontiac, Mich., an 8-man board of directors was discussed (four from each side) as well as a schedule (10 ovals and 10 road/street courses) that combined each series strongest venues and retaining the IRL's normally-aspirated engine formula.

"If it would happen, everybody would win -- sponsors, fans, teams -- and I would certainly like to see it happen and go to the next level," said Forsythe, who has fielded Champ Cars on and off since 1982 and now operates a three-car team."

These are JF's comments not RP's....
how much is fact, how much is fiction...
FACT, it will never see a dollar from me:thumdown:...
there is nothing in the twirl that interests me, not even indy anymore...
lots of racing 44 miles away at Mosport for me..:thumbup:

[FanofMario]

I could live with a unified series if:
1) FTG was solely a track owner---and maybe a neuterd board member.
2) No member of either series was the head of it.
3) That a turbo engine formula was maintained.
4) That a 15 road/street v. 5 oval schedule was formulated.

Since ego and money drive this sport, I don't see anything happening soon. I hope OWRS gets through the season at its present successful pace and deals with the TBAs and then maybe talk turkey at the end of the season. It sure sounds like time is our ally---or at least for this season.

[racer2c]

Why the hell should Indycar unify with a series that has no fans, greedy old-school owners who care more about cashing checks than racing, aging cars that are impossible to pass, road races NOBODY cares about, morons for leaders and spec motors?

Like it or not, one series is better than zero. :(

Your true colors shine again.

Champ Car had more in attendance last year than the IRL even including Indy. According to one survey, they are the second most attended series after NASCAR. So they do have fans. Live with it.

The spec engines and chassis were a stop gap for a series in a rebuilding pattern. Everyone knows this and everyone knows that it will change once their feet are beneath them.

That all oval series sure is jumping all over the road course action that NOBODY cares about.

As for the moron issue, who isn't a moron in your book besides yourself? What have the Three Amigos done for you to lable them morons?

Champ Car survives because there are those who understand integrity and who aren't just willing to roll over and take it just because those with the almighty dollar use unscrupulous means to undermined the competition.
One series is not better than zero when it comes to the IRL. They have already seen that the majority of CART fans never succumbed to their free tickets and buyouts of CART teams. If Champ Car folds some day, I suspect only you and Brickman would attend IRL races. Probably both adorned in Champ Car attire I'm sure. :shakehead

[KLang]

Like it or not, one series is better than zero. :(

Not if FTG is running it.

Not one dime of my money. EVER. :flame:

[Mike Kellner]

Originally Posted by Sean O'Gorman
Like it or not, one series is better than zero.

The Lemmings have been watching Zero for 10 years, and claim to love it. Heck, they claim the Great Zero is a brilliant leader who has saved the sport from C^RT ruination.

My own opinion, nothing is better than the crap Tony serves up.

As far as 10 ovals/10 road vs 15 Road/5 ovals, you know with Roger & Tony involved, the schedule will be 1 Indy/19 practice session for Indy.

As Bob Dylan said, "How do I get outta going through all these things twice?"

mk

[RaceGrrl]

My own opinion, nothing is better than the crap Tony serves up.



Bingo. Nothing is what I'll watch if reunification means Tony is in control.

[pfc_m_drake]

Unification will be painful for both sides but it best for the sport for sure.
Quoted for truth.

[Sean O'Gorman]

Your true colors shine again.

Champ Car had more in attendance last year than the IRL even including Indy. According to one survey, they are the second most attended series after NASCAR. So they do have fans. Live with it.

The spec engines and chassis were a stop gap for a series in a rebuilding pattern. Everyone knows this and everyone knows that it will change once their feet are beneath them.

That all oval series sure is jumping all over the road course action that NOBODY cares about.

As for the moron issue, who isn't a moron in your book besides yourself? What have the Three Amigos done for you to lable them morons?

Champ Car survives because there are those who understand integrity and who aren't just willing to roll over and take it just because those with the almighty dollar use unscrupulous means to undermined the competition.
One series is not better than zero when it comes to the IRL. They have already seen that the majority of CART fans never succumbed to their free tickets and buyouts of CART teams. If Champ Car folds some day, I suspect only you and Brickman would attend IRL races. Probably both adorned in Champ Car attire I'm sure. :shakehead

If by showing my true colors you mean that I'm showing again that I'm frustrated with the state of open wheel racing, then yes, you are right. You know damn well that I'm no supporter of the IRL, and that when I said one series I meant a unified series, not the IRL as the sole remaining series. Nobody with even half a brain wants that.

I could argue your points about attendance, the engine package, etc. but whats the point? It would just go nowhere and produce nothing except more anger, and I don't want that.

Granted my time as a racefan is undoubtedly shorter than many of you here, and most of it was as a child, but I've still seen alot. I've seen the IMSA GTP series I adored so much disappear, a victim of no support from sponsors and manufacturers. I've seen my beloved Mid-Ohio Champ Car race fade away off the schedule, with seemingly nobody caring except the hardcores on the Internet forums. The Cleveland Grand Prix has less than half the stands now than it back in 1995 (hell, it only has 60% the stands now that it did in 2001!), yet they still claim there are 60,000 people in attendance on race day and you all believe it like theres some giantic underground community of Champ Car fans that the sponsors simply haven't noticed. TV ratings are non-existant but people on the Internet argue over numbers involving only tens of thousands of fans as if its some sort of progress. Drifting has come onto the racing scene and already has a stronger sponsor, fan, and PR base than Champ Car. DRIFTING!!! Its not even actual racing!!! :mad: Sponsors are gone, manufacturers are gone, tracks are gone, fans are gone, and theres no sign of them returning.

If theres a sign that things are improving, PLEASE let me know, I'd like to see it. Until then, I'm going to stand by my belief that unification is the best way, because I don't see any other alternatives. :(

[Mike Kellner]

Unification will be painful for both sides but it best for the sport for sure.

Quoted for truth.

I dissagree. Unification, if it is just another cover for Tony winning, and Roger having his unfair advantage cemented into place, will do nothing good for anyone other than Tony & Roger. Given these two's history of looking out for number one, what is the chance that they have anything other than their own best interests in mind? If these two robber barrons had cared for the sport, we never would have had a split, and would be working together now. This is not about saving the sport, but rather it is about the advertisers no longer thinking Indy sponsorships are worth the price tag.

To me, the sport is more than Indy and Roger's B2B contacts. ChampCar is taking the right path to save the sport, and that path leads away from Indy, Roger, Tony, and the whole clan of Hulman vampires, who have sucked this sport dry for too many decades now. Let the Indy 500 go to NASCAR. Then open wheel can finally survive, focussed on what is best for itself, not what is best for the Hulman Empire.

mk

We don't need no stinkin' Indy

[scanman]

To me, the sport is more than Indy and Roger's B2B contacts. ChampCar is taking the right path to save the sport, and that path leads away from Indy, Roger, Tony, and the whole clan of Hulman vampires, who have sucked this sport dry for too many decades now. Let the Indy 500 go to NASCAR. Then open wheel can finally survive, focussed on what is best for itself, not what is best for the Hulman Empire.

mk

We don't need no stinkin' Indy

Gee, I wish Ida said that, I can think it, but can't put it in words on the screen...

Thanks mk..:thumbup:

[Lola_B70]

Amen Mike!

[rabbit]

As far as technical specs go, I can deal with the engines, just not the chassis.

And as far as the politics, aside from not wanting TG to run the whole thing, all I want is one series so we can get back to the business of putting full fields of quality cars and drivers on the grid and fans back in the stands in North America.
Good post.

[Methanolandbrats]

Unification will be painful for both sides but it best for the sport for sure.

Quoted for truth.

I dissagree. Unification, if it is just another cover for Tony winning, and Roger having his unfair advantage cemented into place, will do nothing good for anyone other than Tony & Roger. Given these two's history of looking out for number one, what is the chance that they have anything other than their own best interests in mind? If these two robber barrons had cared for the sport, we never would have had a split, and would be working together now. This is not about saving the sport, but rather it is about the advertisers no longer thinking Indy sponsorships are worth the price tag.

To me, the sport is more than Indy and Roger's B2B contacts. ChampCar is taking the right path to save the sport, and that path leads away from Indy, Roger, Tony, and the whole clan of Hulman vampires, who have sucked this sport dry for too many decades now. Let the Indy 500 go to NASCAR. Then open wheel can finally survive, focussed on what is best for itself, not what is best for the Hulman Empire.

mk

We don't need no stinkin' Indy Right. Those dicks have to be purged or it's back to the same old bullsheet. Prune the deadwood and forget about the past. Give something new a chance to grow.

[Mike Kellner]

Another thought...

In January, there was no talk of reunification. Then, Usama alToni was trying to destroy ChampCar by buying key assets, in order to prevent us from racing this season. That they are negotiating now shows that ChampCar is thriving, and Roger doesn't want the train to leave the station without him.

Now is not the time to lose courage. We are winning, and Roger suddenly courting us is the proof.

We don't need Roger, we don't need Tony. They need us, or they would still be waving the hammer in front of the TV cameras. Screw them both. Let's have a racing series that exists for some reason other than to make those two rich boys richer.

mk

[scanman]

You are too fast for me mk... :D :thumbup:

[RichK]

I am excited at the thought of one formula car series in the US. If this happens, there will likely be a couple years of the crappy engines & cars (hopefully not), but the upside is too good to turn down. If a new series turns on the manufacturers and sponsors, better cars and engines will follow.

I don't trust Penske or TG, but then I don't really trust the 3 amigos, either. They are just rich car owners running a series in which they compete, and so far I'm not too impressed with people bearing that job description.

My wife and I skipped Long Beach this year because 2003 looked like a club race compared to the "Zanardi" years or before. Driving into Long Beach used to transform me into a little kid with the anticipation.....that feeling disappeared when the big names (drivers/manufacturers/sponsors) left. If I want to see blank white EZ-Ups and rich guys racing cars with solid colors, I'll go to an SCCA National and see closer/better racing.

I believe ChampCar now has the upper hand, which is a credit to the 3 amigos. It's amazing, really, that despite Toyota/Honda and the open wheel "royalty" being on the other side, that ChampCar is in a position to dictate terms or walk away. I hope they dictate the best terms possible, and create something where I'll want to drive 7 hours, pay outrageous hotel bills, buy t-shirts, and eat a King Taco carnitas burrito while getting elbowed by a giant crowd around me.

[Sean O'Gorman]

I am excited at the thought of one formula car series in the US. If this happens, there will likely be a couple years of the crappy engines & cars (hopefully not), but the upside is too good to turn down. If a new series turns on the manufacturers and sponsors, better cars and engines will follow.

I don't trust Penske or TG, but then I don't really trust the 3 amigos, either. They are just rich car owners running a series in which they compete, and so far I'm not too impressed with people bearing that job description.

My wife and I skipped Long Beach this year because 2003 looked like a club race compared to the "Zanardi" years or before. Driving into Long Beach used to transform me into a little kid with the anticipation.....that feeling disappeared when the big names (drivers/manufacturers/sponsors) left. If I want to see blank white EZ-Ups and rich guys racing cars with solid colors, I'll go to an SCCA National and see closer/better racing.

I believe ChampCar now has the upper hand, which is a credit to the 3 amigos. It's amazing, really, that despite Toyota/Honda and the open wheel "royalty" being on the other side, that ChampCar is in a position to dictate terms or walk away. I hope they dictate the best terms possible, and create something where I'll want to drive 7 hours, pay outrageous hotel bills, buy t-shirts, and eat a King Taco carnitas burrito while getting elbowed by a giant crowd around me.

Excellent post Rich. Unfortunately, I think it makes you a gomer like me now, according to some here. :rolleyes:

Now if you all will excuse me, I have to go pick up my Cleveland GP ticket from my uncle. I hope I can make it all the way to Strongsville making only left hand turns! :gomer: :gomer:

[Insomniac]

They're on the right track. The quote that is most interesting to me is:


Asked about the sense of urgency on Penske's part to get things back together after an eight-year war that has decimated television ratings, discouraged sponsors and alienated fans, Kalkhoven replied:

"They are so enthusiastic to do something with us it's almost frightening."

OWRS needs to remember that. This time they came knocking.

N/A Engines: I have no problem with N/A, but I have a big one with the current IRL N/A. Those things sound bad and don't have anywhere close to enough power for anything but ovals. The engines need some work. No rev limiter, more torrque and a much larger power band. And a new way to mount in the Lola and Reyanrd chassis. If Dallara and G-Force want to design chassis's with the ChampCar specs, I don't mind. The sole reason for N/A over turbo is to appease Honda and Toyota. Cosworth is already there, so it does make sense, but not as is. No way.

Chassis: ChampCar, they're proven and safe.

Tracks. 10/10 is stupid. Every oval is in the United States except Motegi. (Maybe Germany too). You have 3 races in Canada, 2 in Mexico, 1 in Australia, 1 in South Korea. That is 7 road/steet outside of the US. Add LB and Cleveland and that is 9. Doesn't leave much room for RA, Mid-Ohio, Laguna Seca or Portland. (Or street races) It has to be at least 13/7. If they want 10 ovals, then they need 15/10. They're all in the US and there is no reason they can't race consecutive weekends in the US. And people around here can get their February to November dream with much smaller gaps. ;)

Board: TG can be on it if every person has equal say. But 4/4 on an 8 member board is asking for trouble. They need to have 12 members. 4 from the IRL, 4 from OWRS and 4 independent members with no direct financial stake except their salary based on the sucess of the series. In addition, no more than 2 from the IRL or OWRS can be car owners. The inmates can't run the asylum.

Stand up for what you believe in guys. You saved the series because you believed in it and the product. Don't sell out.

[dando]

Looks like GF and KK need to get on the same page. Where's PG in all of this?



Asked about the sense of urgency on Penske's part to get things back together after an eight-year war that has decimated television ratings, discouraged sponsors and alienated fans, Kalkhoven replied:

"They are so enthusiastic to do something with us it's almost frightening."

That's very telling...me thinks the Cap'n sees the end of the gravy train on the horizon. It's very obvious that something is driving this and increasing the sense of urgency.

-Kevin

[Sean O'Gorman]

Board: TG can be on it if every person has equal say. But 4/4 on an 8 member board is asking for trouble. They need to have 12 members. 4 from the IRL, 4 from OWRS and 4 independent members with no direct financial stake except their salary based on the sucess of the series. In addition, no more than 2 from the IRL or OWRS can be car owners. The inmates can't run the asylum.

I'm not crazy about your other ideas, but I really like this one. The thing that I've pointed out before is that the car owners, promoters, TG, etc. are so trapped in their own little worlds that they couldn't possibly comprehend the situation from an outside perspective, which is why we are in the situation we're in. It is why Rahal thought the buzz was back at Indy this year even though it was one of the most pathetic turnouts ever; it is why Nelson Philippe and Vitor Miera have rides while Memo Gidley or Hoover Orsi don't; it is why Mid-Ohio wont be back on the Champ Car schedule anytime soon but Argentina is under consideration. :rolleyes: etc. etc. etc.

Open wheel racing needs new blood from the outside to help shake things up.

[Insomniac]

Looks like GF and KK need to get on the same page. Where's PG in all of this?

According to the article, he's only a 10% owner. But, they met in Michigan, which is where PG's Real Estate company is.

[Insomniac]

I'm not crazy about your other ideas

Why not? Do you think the current IRL formula will actually work on a RC/SS? You said yourself you didn't like the chassis. It seems you're not a fan of international races, which would explain why you would favor 10/10.

[mueber]

What really scares me about this is that, once again, the powers that be in Champ Car are gazing out into the distance instead of focusing on building a successful series. How many times did CART’s alleged management make that mistake?

I have a plan for "saving" champ car. It involves an organization that builds a world-class series that respects the sponsors, track-owners, and team members, but reveres the fans. It expresses its reverence for the fans by staging the races they want to see at the tracks and times they want to see them.

This organization is staffed by people who are humble enough to mean it when they say, “It’s for the fans.” and grateful enough to say things like, “I will never sell you out for Toyota bucks or Marlboro money.” and, ”I will never use my position to impose upon the fans choices they don’t want to have to make.”

Now does this sound like an organization that would have Tony George and Roger Penske as key players?

I didn’t think so.

Move on.

[pchall]

Unification will be painful for both sides but it best for the sport for sure.

Just as long as it is much more painful for TG and IRL Indiots than for anybody who stuck with champcars.

[pchall]

Why the hell should Indycar unify with a series that has no fans, greedy old-school owners who care more about cashing checks than racing, aging cars that are impossible to pass, road races NOBODY cares about, morons for leaders and spec motors?

Like it or not, one series is better than zero. :(

SOG, has Bill McGuire been lecturing you again at Mid-Ohio? :shakehead

[Sean O'Gorman]

Why not? Do you think the current IRL formula will actually work on a RC/SS? You said yourself you didn't like the chassis. It seems you're not a fan of international races, which would explain why you would favor 10/10.

Well, of the two chassis, I'd prefer the Champ Car ones, but I don't know what Dallara and G-Force would think of that. But if a new one could be designed, I'd much prefer that. Champ Car is overdue for a new chassis formula, and the IRL, well, what more needs to be said about those cars?

[Sean O'Gorman]

SOG, has Bill McGuire been lecturing you again at Mid-Ohio? :shakehead

I haven't seen him in three years, and probably haven't talked to him in over two. Don't know what that has to do with anything, I can form my own opinion, and my opinion is that I'd like to NOT see professional road racing die out or go on life support in the next few years.

[pchall]

KK says: "But there are some substantial obstacles that make it impossible to get it done at the present time."

That's the way to look at it Mr. Kalkhoven. Let the ¥¥¥ monkeys rot until the fall from the money tree.

[racer2c]

I'm frustrated too Sean. With the fact that Tony's Tantrum ruinded my favorite sport.

[devilmaster]

Reunification is pointless.

Now that i've got that point out of the way.......

Reunification will not be the saviour. OW is in the tank. Accept it and realize that it will probably never reach the pinnacle it had years ago. Once that happens, then we can look forward to what we hope our series can truly be.

If Roger is making these overtones now, you must assume a few things. 1) Roger will be making money on the deal. 2) There is another reason for Roger to do this. He wouldn't do this out of respect for the industry. Show me a team owner who truly cares more about OW as a whole than making money, and i'll show you a former team owner, assuming I can actually find one who cares more about OW as a whole.

The simple truth of it is, a once great sport, which was very profitable, was destroyed by people who wanted to make sure they got the lion's share of the profit. This isn't a radical idea. All you have to do is look at Bernie Eccelstone vs. manufacturers, The France Family vs. Bruton Smith, Grand Am vs. ALMS, and of course, CART vs. IRL. All of the above examples are rich people fighting over who gets a bigger portion of their pie.

Why would anyone think 10 ovals will help make a series profitable again? (note: I'm a fan of OW on ovals, I miss MIS) I can't even think of 5 well attended ovals that would combine with the 10 best road race venues to make a decent 15 race sked.

For the 3 amigos to buy and continue ChampCar, they saw something worth keeping, and have an idea how to bring it back to profitability. Can they stay the course and do it? That remains to be seen. Tony might open the vault and the 3 amigos might change their tune. Personally, I hope they continue their work at making our series profitable. I believe it can be done, and I believe that they have a plan to do it.

In the end, there is really nothing to be gained by reunification. You can compare the split to the expansion of the NHL or MLB. They expanded because they wanted the expansion fees. A quick buck, then realized that these teams were a drain on the whole. Attendance lags, the talent pool is thinned, and in the end, the sport suffers. Expansion was forced on OW. More tracks, more teams, and in the end, is the combination of the 2 series stronger now than one series was 10 years ago? Nope.

It will take decades for the 9 years of damage to be repaired, assuming it can be repaired at all. I see a future for ChampCar, not as big as it used to be, but profitable and slowly growing. I believe the cancer has been cut, and like any new or growing sport, it has a small but dedicated fan base, and perhaps with good business decisions, it will slowly grow into something we will be watching for years to come.

Steve

[BNica]

Whatever they do, they have to remember the fans in all this deal. And that ultimately might be what this is about. EARL is not gonna fill up Mid-Ohio or Road America. They are going to be short of the 25000 hardcore fans who go to most US venues and wear "FTG" t-shirts. But guess what, the 10 or 20000 casual fans who might show up, won't be back for the next year.

Just hope the 3 Amigos realize this, and figure out that they have a customer base they need to attend too before any 'unification'

[devilmaster]

Whatever they do, they have to remember the fans in all this deal. And that ultimately might be what this is about.

Yes, yer right Boli. They should think about the fans.

The only reason they will think of the fans now (no matter what owner it is), is simply because most of the sponsors have left. Its turning into a sport driven, not by sponsorship money(cause they all be leaving), but by the gate. Then, and only then, will the powers that be really take a look at the fans.

Steve

[RaceGrrl]

You beat me to the post, Steve. :)

TG's unification = alienation of the hardcore CCWS fan.

[formulaben]

They're on the right track. The quote that is most interesting to me is:



OWRS needs to remember that. This time they came knocking.

*snip*

Board: TG can be on it if every person has equal say. But 4/4 on an 8 member board is asking for trouble. They need to have 12 members. 4 from the IRL, 4 from OWRS and 4 independent members with no direct financial stake except their salary based on the sucess of the series. In addition, no more than 2 from the IRL or OWRS can be car owners. The inmates can't run the asylum.

Stand up for what you believe in guys. You saved the series because you believed in it and the product. Don't sell out.

If, and I do mean IF this were to happen, then the board should be as you say. But I think your last sentence is the most important thing to remember. I'm with these guys, thick or thin...

[pchall]

You beat me to the post, Steve. :)

TG's unification = alienation of the hardcore CCWS fan.

Exactly.

[Sean O'Gorman]

TG's unification = alienation of the hardcore CCWS fan.

Well if OWRS wants to operate at a loss in order to please the hardcore Champ Car fan, then I'm all for it, but I just don't see it happening long term. There are simply not enough of us.

[Insomniac]

What really scares me about this is that, once again, the powers that be in Champ Car are gazing out into the distance instead of focusing on building a successful series. How many times did CART’s alleged management make that mistake?

I have a plan for "saving" champ car. It involves an organization that builds a world-class series that respects the sponsors, track-owners, and team members, but reveres the fans. It expresses its reverence for the fans by staging the races they want to see at the tracks and times they want to see them.

This organization is staffed by people who are humble enough to mean it when they say, “It’s for the fans.” and grateful enough to say things like, “I will never sell you out for Toyota bucks or Marlboro money.” and, ”I will never use my position to impose upon the fans choices they don’t want to have to make.”

Now does this sound like an organization that would have Tony George and Roger Penske as key players?

I didn’t think so.

Move on.

It is different this time. They aren't the ones bending over and screwing up their own series trying to unify (not that the IRL is). Before they tried to bring it together to the detriment of CART. It's not hurting to see/listen to what can be done. It's when they start acting before an agreement is in place I'll start worrying.

[Insomniac]

Reunification is pointless.

Now that i've got that point out of the way.......

Reunification will not be the saviour. OW is in the tank. Accept it and realize that it will probably never reach the pinnacle it had years ago. Once that happens, then we can look forward to what we hope our series can truly be.

If Roger is making these overtones now, you must assume a few things. 1) Roger will be making money on the deal. 2) There is another reason for Roger to do this. He wouldn't do this out of respect for the industry. Show me a team owner who truly cares more about OW as a whole than making money, and i'll show you a former team owner, assuming I can actually find one who cares more about OW as a whole.

The simple truth of it is, a once great sport, which was very profitable, was destroyed by people who wanted to make sure they got the lion's share of the profit. This isn't a radical idea. All you have to do is look at Bernie Eccelstone vs. manufacturers, The France Family vs. Bruton Smith, Grand Am vs. ALMS, and of course, CART vs. IRL. All of the above examples are rich people fighting over who gets a bigger portion of their pie.

I agree with you for the most part. Whatever Penske does is always best for him. There is no question. However, just because it is good for him doesn't make it automatically mean it is bad fior everyone else. We may never get back to the heyday, but we are most definitely at an impasse. TG has run the series out of his own pockets for years and there is no indication he plans to stop doing that. The three amigos are going to try and do the same thing and hope to turn a profit. It isn't clear if they could both keep going this way forever. Someone might pull the plug on TG or maybe the three amigos won't be able to turn a profit with only the fans supplying revenue. To me, the best case scenario is the IRL just dies and OWRS is left. Unfotunately, OWRS would most likely die before the IRL with TG's deep pockets. He made it work before H&T and can keep it running if they leave. Given that, I'd like to see the compromise I mentioned. I don't want crappy cars putting on even crappier road races and i don't want TG in charge (to put it simply). I personally think there is a point to reunification under certain conditions.

[Insomniac]

You beat me to the post, Steve. :)

TG's unification = alienation of the hardcore CCWS fan.

Isn't it just him in charge of OWR in the US?

[oddlycalm]

what is the chance that they have anything other than their own best interests in mind?Zero. On the other hand, there's always a remote possibility they would do something reasonable, if only by mistake... ;)
To me, the sport is more than Indy and Roger's B2B contacts. ChampCar is taking the right path to save the sport, and that path leads away from Indy, Roger, Tony, and the whole clan of Hulman vampires, who have sucked this sport dry for too many decades now. Let the Indy 500 go to NASCAR. Then open wheel can finally survive, focussed on what is best for itself, not what is best for the Hulman Empire.

This has long been my position, and I've felt like Champ Car racing could flourish if it was able to get out from under the jaundiced shadow of the IMS. However, I'm no longer sure that is the case. We will probably know for sure by the end of the season. The Canadian and Mexican races remain strong as does Surfers and Long Beach. However, in general Champ Car racing has pretty much fallen off the radar screen in the US. We managed 32,000 at Portland, which was better than last year but only half of what it had been for many years. Unless a race sponser is found, this will be the last year for this race.

Over race weekend I had a chance to talk with a lot of non-fans and casual fans. Most non-fans can't distiguish between F1, Champ Car and the IRL, and frankly don't care. The casual fans are confused as well and don't know what to think after hearing the series was going under for the last 3yrs. I found out at our BMW club meeting that several of our members thought the series had folded, and these guys are club racers! To say this is not good is like calling a dwarf short.

This all boils down to brand identification, and CART's lack of marketing acumen meant they managed to spend a successful 20yrs in business without ever building a brand a recognizable brand. The two fundamental blunders they made were to use a name they didn't own, Indycar, to describe the equipment and they used a dumb acronym to describe their company and series. That''s what made them vulnerable to TG's incursion in the first place.

CCWS is basically starting from scratch, and it will be very difficult, maybe even impossible, to build anything out of the ashes of what was once CART. Those of us that would prefer to see no series rather than one that includes those that jumped to the EARL and TG may indeed get our wish.

oc

[devilmaster]

The three amigos are going to try and do the same thing and hope to turn a profit. It isn't clear if they could both keep going this way forever. Someone might pull the plug on TG or maybe the three amigos won't be able to turn a profit with only the fans supplying revenue.

Don't confuse my first long post with the response I gave to BoliNica. Will ChampCar survive on fan revenue? No. Its impossible.

ChampCar, in my opinion, will survive on the ability to run enough street events in places where ChampCar will get paid to show up. And the people you want paying is governments. Very simply, governments do not have to see a direct profit from the gate. Would they like to? Of course, but governments can give money with the understanding they will get the monies back other ways.

Bob Singleton of Molson recently stated that the Aussie government underwrites to the tune of 10 million to make the Honda Indy happen. At the courthouse earlier this year, the Aussies stated that the race generates 50 to 60 million for the region. Governments like those numbers. You can show a prospective government a Surfer's or Long Beach setup, and show how it will benefit their community. Tell them by underwriting, it ensures the event happens, and that getting local companies to sponsor the event can help refund their original outlay, and with the monies that go into the region from the race(hotels, restaurants), everyone is happy. It always bugged me to see the difference in promotion that Detroit and Toronto gave. Molson understands promotion, and how to make it work. IMG didn't. Molson now has 3 races in Canada. Detroit is gone and Champcar now promotes Cleveland.

ChampCar talks about places overseas because those are the people who will front the money. And for any series, that is important. (see: BahrainGP) They lost too much money picking up where bad promoters failed.

If they can get enough good races on which they can support the series and make a tidy profit, then some not so profitable races can stay, like RA or Portland. If they make a big profit, then filter some of the profits into the purses or direct payments to teams so that teams get more money to run. If the series is successful and profitable, then teams can make more, and you will see more teams back in the series.

All I said above is a working system. It just takes time to do it.
Steve

[Andrew Longman]

Champcar has a business model and plan that is achievable. The elements of cost control, sponsor support, government backing, profitable venues, etc. has been discussed endlessly here.

The IRL model, built around Indy and engine money simply isn't and can't work.

Add that the few fans that exist clearly prefer Champcar and that TGs pockets are not in fact bottomless and the conclusion is clear.

Champcar will certainly succeed before IRL. Its not a gimmie, but the IRL has no chance.

"Unification" makes no sense because other than the race in May the IRL has nothing to offer.

Would having a race in MAy in front of 300,000 people be better than most other things Champcar could do in MAy? Sure!

Would having one series and racing at Indy reduce confusion among fans and please sponsors? Absolutely!

Is it necessary? No way!

So if the price of getting TG to close his series and "invite" us to his May event is to give him anything like a place on the board, or piece of the business then the answer is no.

Treat him very nicely, with respect and gratitude, just like they should any track owner or critical stakeholder. But keep him out of your business.

[mueber]

The most important thing about the meeting is that nothing happened. When it comes to unification, nothing has ever happened. I'm feeling better about that all the time.

[cart7]

A few more thoughts of my own.

Roger's realizing OWRS can survive beyond '05 to make things real uncomfortable for the earl. Besides his own deal he must have, he's probably looking at the car count and being realistic at how many of those cars are there due to T & H money. Yoda is definitely making the move to Nascar and Honda probably won't be far behind. How long will those two tolerate pouring tons of money into promo, development along with having all those ex-Cart teams stuck on their teets when the league has stagnant and/or declining attendance and slipping TV numbers? How long will they sit back paying to fill Tony's field in May, creating the only promotions for the league and generally watch as they line Tony's pocket with money??

I don't believe for a minute that AGR is gridding 4 cars on whiskey and Big Gulp money. I'm sure Rog has figured that out. Yes, T & H have signed on for 05 and T for 06 but at what level?

As long as the split is in place potential sponsors are turned off. End the split, and teams can start attracting again if the new series is run right. I say the 3 amigo's should let this ride and let Roger and the earl sweat it out. Make 'em re-evalute at the end of this season when things aren't as sweet as they appear now. It'll be much easier to negotiate for things we desire when they're more desperate.

[Ruben Barrios]

I can't make head and feet about this.... One thing is certain TG must die (figurative speech here) before fans get with any program.

[Andrew Longman]

I haven't seen any mention of the impact of possibly breaking contracts with venues in 05 and beyond. I don't think either series is in a position to take on lawsuits or buyouts if they run a 10/10 or some other combined schedule.

Even if they could get out of deals, those negotiations, which would happen one at a time with each track, (I guess excepting ISC), and would need to begin now since both series are preparing their 05 schedule and TV packages

I agree with the suggestion to make RP and TG sweat. They just may be sweating sooner than we think.

[Mike Kellner]

"I agree with the suggestion to make RP and TG sweat. They just may be sweating sooner than we think."

I think that is it exactly. They are in failure mode, and Roger knows it. He is trying to bluff his way into a better deal than he will get later.

Here is my proposal...

ChampCar agrees to sanction and officiate the Indy 500, and promises no walkout or boycott. Tony gets to sell tickets, food and drink at the track. Tony doubles the purse and pays OWRS $10 million/ per race to provide the field. ChampCar changes rules so manufacturers have to provide motors and chassis to any who notify them six months in advance, and provide proper deposits and financial guarantees. Tony promises to stop interfering in the management of open wheel racing, and settles for owning the biggest race.

Small details to be worked out as the arrise by the Champ Car board of directors who run the sport. CART returns as the organization of team owners, who get 1/4 of the votes on this board. Similar organizations of sponsors, promotors, and equipment suppliers (engine, chassis & tire) also each get 1/4 of the seats. The board elects a Commissioner who has a lot of power to run things. (My choice, Rick Mears)

mk

[scanman]

mk...who gets the rest of the votes...1/4 + 1/4 = 1/2

or was it a typo.. :confused:

[Mike Kellner]

CART 1/4
Promotors 1/4
Equipment suppliers 1/4
Sponsors 1/4

mk

[JLMannin]

My guess is that old Roger had a sponsor lined up and the deal is contigient upon a unified series. Roger only looks out for Roger's sake.

As others have said in this thread, Penske made his own bed and he should ber forced to sleep in it. I say tell roger and tony to shove the olive branch up their ass :mad: and let Indy continue to whither and become an insignificant, piss-ant race just like the rest of the irl.

After the shenanigans that went on to fund the last seven spots on the grid this year, there is no way there will be 33 cars next year. TG has always contended that Indy made the stars, not vice versa. After nine years, he should have bus loads of new superstars and should not need Champcar to supply the entries to his race. This bitter fan says turn away from the speedway and let the May date become a NASCAR race. Maybe the crapwagons could run the infield roadcourse in '05 "for traditions sake". After all, tradition is real important to Tony :rolleyes:

[scanman]

Aha...I'm a little slow on the uptake...
I like it.. :cool:

[JLMannin]

CART 1/4
Promotors 1/4
Equipment suppliers 1/4
Sponsors 1/4

mk

What happens when equipment suppliers become sponsors and promoters (like Honda)?

[Mike Kellner]

They can join any group they fit in. But the groups will only get to pick so many representatives. If Honda, or any company is dumping big bucks into the sport from several direstions, they should have a say. If Honda promotes one race out of 16, I assume they other promotors would give them a say equal to their stake.

You cannot take politics out of racing, but I bet if they tried, they could devise a system where all stake holders get a fair say over the outcome.

mk

[oddlycalm]

My guess is that old Roger had a sponsor lined up and the deal is contigient upon a unified series.

Yep, that part is pretty transparent. My guess is that he talked with more than one that told him the same thing. This situation has created such a high stink factor that very few companies are still willing to go near it. On top of that, TG has yet to deliver the results.

Remember, even if the potential sponsor doesn't know about the situation, you can bet the agency they use is wise to the details and knows the actual attendance and ratings numbers. That's who is whispering in the ears of the potential sponsors. Penske made get some face time with a CEO on the golf course, but when that company's agency comes back later and fills in the blanks and give a thumbs down recommendation, Roger is getting the blowoff call.

It takes some serious paper to fund Penske's operation, and the pool of realistic primary sponsors isn't that large. Also, it cost time and money to fly around and do presentations and romance these folks. That gets old fast if all you are getting for all that trouble is polite blowoffs. ;)

oc

[RichK]

Good post, oc.

I've never thought of this until you posted, but the tobacco ban may just be the main cause of reunification. Penske could always count on tobacco money until now, and he's soon going to experience the economic reality that all the other teams see.

[FTG]

I don't think it is a new sponsor.

Toyota and Honda are gone unless there's a merger.

Coke head could care less, so nothing to worry about.

[dando]

Some further details on the discussion:

linky (http://sports.espn.go.com/rpm/news/story?id=1829622)


When reports of a possible reunification emerged this week, Eidswick responded with an e-mail to Champ Car's employees that explained the league was still working within the framework of a long-term plan.

"Everyone wants the dream result, to get back to the way it was,'' Eidswick said. "But that's not in our plans. I think it's important that Champ Car offers the best motor racing product to our fans, at the track and on TV. Getting back together isn't a priority.''

The biggest appeal to the IRL appears to be scheduling.

When George bid $13.5 million to purchase CART in January, it was believed he wanted to add several North American road races to the schedule. Nation said that would be attractive to the IRL.

"There would be a benefit in working together,'' he explained.

"An end to the perceived war in open-wheel racing would be good, but it's less important to us now than it was five years ago.

"That won't mean we won't listen and we, obviously, have a high regard for Roger.''

I found this piece amusing:


"I don't think there's any magic deadline,'' IRL spokesman Fred Nation said. "We have a very open mind, and we always have, to parties with reasonable suggestions.''

And where is FTG's lil' toy hammer? FTG! FFN! FRP!

-Kevin

[mueber]

What happens when equipment suppliers become sponsors and promoters (like Honda)?

I find it interesting that NASCAR has taken the position that GM, Ford, and Dodge are welcome to spend their money there, but NASCAR will make the rules. The owners would miss the money if they became dissatisfied and left, but NASCAR would carry on

I guess that comes from having an objective third party most concerned with the success of the series at the helm. Unfortunately, CART never had such a structure. Boy George can always find a cheap engine to stuff in the back of his cars if Honda, Toyota and Chevy pull out. OWRS proved that.

[Methanolandbrats]

It's clear that other than Indy, there is no return for engine makers and major sponsors in the IRL. And Indy is now far from sacred and beginning to accumulate negative baggage. Because of that the IRL sponsors are putting heavy pressure on FRP and FTG to deliver on their promises. Nobody likes a blowtorch near their balls so FFN, FTG and their mouthpiece FRP are talking "reunification" to save their asses while presenting it as "far from urgent" and "good for the sport". Screw them.

[FanofMario]

Quote:
"I don't think there's any magic deadline,'' IRL spokesman Fred Nation said. "We have a very open mind, and we always have, to parties with reasonable suggestions.''

To have this propagandist spout this, you have to wonder if Roger has angered FTG and the IRL. I don't buy the "we always have" crap for a nano second. FTG and company have consistantly shot down unification discussion in the past. Why did AP decide to run this article almost a week after this reunification thing first came to light? Strange :saywhat:

FTG and the rest of the IRL nation!

[devilmaster]

Quote:
"I don't think there's any magic deadline,'' IRL spokesman Fred Nation said. "We have a very open mind, and we always have, to parties with reasonable suggestions.''

To them, 'resonable suggestions' is 'we give everything to Tony George cause his ego needs it'.

Steve

[Coldfart]

The easiest way to push reunification through is to tell Tony that he will be "Co-President". In the main office of whoever is the ultimate head honcho, you could have a Lil' Tykes type desk for Tony with a telephone that calls Fred Nation, a hammer, and a chalkboard to keep important notes on what the 'Vision' is today and what important media mavens are stopping by today (like the Indy Star's Curt Cavin!) At various points during the day, the UHH could ask Tony, "Did you bring your hammer to work today?" Tony would smile and make pounding motions . Contact with a hard surface would cause the hammer to play a prerecorded message from Jack Arute ("Go Tony Go!")

The desk could also include a plastic checkbook that comes with a big blue Crayola marker where Tony could write 'big checks' to "Bernie", "A.J.", and "Jenks". Another cool thing would be big plastic abacus where Tony could figure attendance and how many more days till "We're bigger than NASCAR and F1."

[sundaydriver2]

I'd go for that.

Don't forget the big plaque behind his desk that says: "I don't know"

[cart7]

The easiest way to push reunification through is to tell Tony that he will be "Co-President". In the main office of whoever is the ultimate head honcho, you could have a Lil' Tykes type desk for Tony with a telephone that calls Fred Nation, a hammer, and a chalkboard to keep important notes on what the 'Vision' is today and what important media mavens are stopping by today (like the Indy Star's Curt Cavin!) At various points during the day, the UHH could ask Tony, "Did you bring your hammer to work today?" Tony would smile and make pounding motions . Contact with a hard surface would cause the hammer to play a prerecorded message from Jack Arute ("Go Tony Go!")

The desk could also include a plastic checkbook that comes with a big blue Crayola marker where Tony could write 'big checks' to "Bernie", "A.J.", and "Jenks". Another cool thing would be big plastic abacus where Tony could figure attendance and how many more days till "We're bigger than NASCAR and F1."
Actually, you've probably described his current office layout to a T. :laugh:

[Madmaxfan2]

This will not happen. Mark my words. Apparently TG isn't going along with Roger on this one. No Unification. Let the three amigios build OWRS, and the IRL can fade away. It may take time for OWRS to approach the levels of the old CART, but remember the INDY 500 is just another race these days. But OWRS will arrive at those old levels, Top level Formula Car road racing is too good of an idea to keep it from suceeding, no matter what the man with the hammer thinks. The only decision Roger has to make to say with the sinking ship or leave.

[Racing Truth]

This will not happen. Mark my words. Apparently TG isn't going along with Roger on this one. No Unification. Let the three amigios build OWRS, and the IRL can fade away. It may take time for OWRS to approach the levels of the old CART, but remember the INDY 500 is just another race these days. But OWRS will arrive at those old levels, Top level Formula Car road racing is too good of an idea to keep it from suceeding, no matter what the man with the hammer thinks. The only decision Roger has to make to say with the sinking ship or leave.

See, I think if Roger wants this done, he could get it done. Granted, his options are a bit limited, but he (and others) could reasonably a) go to NASCAR only (applies to Floyd and Rog) or b) go back to Champcar.

Now, if only Floyd, Rog, and Andretti joined forces, that alone is 8 out of only 22 cars. 14 cars won't cut it.

So, if Rog and co. want to play hardball, they can force Tony into a bad spot.

[Chief]

Seems too farfetched to believe TG isn't "aware" of this whole deal. Fact is stranger than fiction, hard to believe there could be a split, version 2. Amazing.

[RaceGrrl]

Seems too farfetched to believe TG isn't "aware" of this whole deal. Fact is stranger than fiction, hard to believe there could be a split, version 2. Amazing.

How can TG be aware of anything going on around him when his head is so far up his butt? :saywhat:

[nrc]

How can TG be aware of anything going on around him when his head is so far up his butt? :saywhat:

"I don't know". :)

[manic mechanic]

a glass belly button, perhaps? :laugh:

[Amanda B.'s Mom]

Another split :rolleyes:

Just what Open Wheel Racing needs right now.

[JLMannin]

Seems too farfetched to believe TG isn't "aware" of this whole deal. Fact is stranger than fiction, hard to believe there could be a split, version 2. Amazing.

I have often thought that there would be a split, version 2. However, it is not panning out like I thought it would. I foresaw teams like Menard, Hemmelgarn, and other original IRL teams, getting cast aside when the IRL used indyitis to lure former CART teams into the fold. I always thought that these founding IRL teams would lead the next split. The fact that it is the former CART teams leading the assimilation, er, unification effort is a suprise to me.

[pchall]

I have often thought that there would be a split, version 2. However, it is not panning out like I thought it would. I foresaw teams like Menard, Hemmelgarn, and other original IRL teams, getting cast aside when the IRL used indyitis to lure former CART teams into the fold. I always thought that these founding IRL teams would lead the next split. The fact that it is the former CART teams leading the assimilation, er, unification effort is a suprise to me.


I've also thought there would a an IRL version of The Split -- and often joked about IRL owners needing to carry a laminate copy of Gurney's 'White Paper' around in their wallets.

[4wheeldrifter]

If he was real serious all Roger would have to do is grab Fatassi and Toyo's mothballed 2.65's (brought up to today's std's) and come back here. End of story. Not that we'd really want them, but....

Or maybe I'm a little out of it today. Been sick all weekend. :(