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DaveL
05-11-04, 12:52 AM
In 1984, during the EVIL CART era, the following drivers who practiced to find the qualifying speed would have had to purchase a ticket for the race if they wanted to be at IMS on race day.

Ed Pimm
Michael Chandler
Chet Fillip
Jacques Villenueve
Pete Halsmer
Gary Bettenhausen
Larry Cannon
Jerry Sneva
Stan Fox
Phil Caliva
Johnny Rutherford
Phil Krueger
Jim Crawford
Desire Wilson
Jerry Karl
Steve Krisiloff
Tom Bigelow
Bruno Giacomelli
Bill Alsup
Steve Chassey
Roger Mears
Chuck Ciprich
John Paul, jr
Dick Ferguson
Johnny Parsons

For those not keeping count, that's 25 drivers and teams that dnq'd. There were, what, 27 drivers total on the track the past two days?

Good thing Tony fixed Indy.

Brickman
05-11-04, 01:02 AM
Yep. Piss poor business decisions by Tony fixed Indy but good.

Mike Kellner
05-11-04, 08:38 AM
What I see on that list is real American race car drivers who had their rightful Indy slots stolen from them by no talent furrin devils like Teo Fabi and Roberto Guererro.

I think we are lucky that Tony set things to right.

mk

Imagine there's no Indy, it's easy if you try...

Clown
05-11-04, 08:52 AM
In 1984!
I didn't know Jacques was that old ;)

Mike Kellner
05-11-04, 08:56 AM
He used a booster seat.

mk

Imagine there's no Indy, it's easy if you try...

Ziggy
05-11-04, 09:27 AM
The development of the customer March. Very cool cars. Spent the entire month at IMS. Michael Chandler was aboard Dan Gurney's beautiful new Eagle with Pontiac motovation. Mike had something break and ended his career against the wall in the north short cute. It was a mess..... and a real blow to an AAR fan. Mike was messed up for years, and of this writing, dont know if he ever got back to where he was on that Friday May 11th crash.......

Ziggy

Turn7
05-11-04, 09:40 AM
Ziggy,

Your a freakin' encyclopedia of racing factoids. Keep it coming, I always enjoy reading, "the rest of the story".


:thumbup:

Ziggy
05-11-04, 10:18 AM
I was pretty upset. We had just got picked up some beer from Scotties Georgetown Lounge and they let us in the North 40....... they did that back then, cause the crowds were huge. This was put up or shut up day. Friday before pole day. My leg was all messed up, and I didnt get out of the house much. We were in a 1970 Nova with a tunnel ram, carbs through hood (but it had a scoop on it). I was not driving, could'nt. Guys with me had not ever been to IMS much. We had just parked, turn 4 was happening. Mike just ate the wall... and it took forever to get him out... right in front of us....

Something got into his visor. A hiem end, suspension piece. What looked fairly mild (other than the speed) turned into a big deal. He was napping...... it was not good.

Sorta screwed the rest of the day up for me, and I still remember it. Gurney's efforts were always fully supported on this end.

Ziggy

racer2c
05-11-04, 10:54 AM
Isn't that young Villenueves namesake uncle?

Mike Kellner
05-11-04, 11:00 AM
Yes. The Villenuves are a racing family. Jacues the elder did race IndyCars for a bit in the 80s.

mk

Imagine there's no Indy, it's easy if you try...

cartcanuck
05-11-04, 11:15 AM
In 1984!
I didn't know Jacques was that old ;)


:rofl: Yeah, a little Villeneuve family factoid that has made me money on bets with half-baked race fans a couple of times :)

rabbit
05-11-04, 11:17 AM
I see a lot of capable drivers on that list. Not just wankers trying to buy their way into the field.

Madmaxfan2
05-11-04, 11:46 AM
Healthy large competetive fields make favoritism hard to be accomplished. Tony had to fix that situation.

FRANKY
05-11-04, 11:51 AM
I see a lot of capable drivers on that list. Not just wankers trying to buy their way into the field.

Capable and winning are two different things. Throw out Rutherford and I would bet you could count on a single hand wins from the group with not a single being Indy. But it was a romatic time, to say times had changed would be an understatement. It's a Tony thing.

devilmaster
05-11-04, 12:00 PM
Capable and winning are two different things. Throw out Rutherford and I would bet you could count on a single hand wins from the group with not a single being Indy.

Take the bottom half of the Indy field from today and you can say the same thing.

In Tony's arrogance to control everything, he's wrecked everything.

At least he's consistent.

Steve

rabbit
05-11-04, 12:09 PM
Capable and winning are two different things.That's why I said "capable." There are several guys in there who could hold their own. They might not win. They probably wouldn't. But I bet they wouldn't get blown into the wall by a wind gust. Twice. In the same race. And I bet they wouldn't spin while running 20 mph off the pace. In practice.

Twenty years ago you had several "capable" drivers (and a three-time champ) not make the field. This year you have several complete wankers virtually guaranteed a spot in the field. :shakehead

FRANKY
05-11-04, 01:23 PM
That's why I said "capable." There are several guys in there who could hold their own. They might not win. They probably wouldn't. But I bet they wouldn't get blown into the wall by a wind gust. Twice. In the same race. And I bet they wouldn't spin while running 20 mph off the pace. In practice.

Twenty years ago you had several "capable" drivers (and a three-time champ) not make the field. This year you have several complete wankers virtually guaranteed a spot in the field. :shakehead

Not sure capable counts for much, out of hundreds and hundreds of starts, it looks like a win each by Paul & Fillip. On a side read in this morning's USA Today while having breakfast, the manufacturers are saying don't blame us. (bottom of page) Only Bman would, it's really a Tony thing.

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/motor/irl/indy500/2004-05-10-de-ferran_x.htm

Ziggy
05-11-04, 01:39 PM
Franky, your confused about what it should take to even be allowed on the track. Bettenhausen, John Paul Jr where winners in Champcars. Gary in several different disciplines of USAC cars. Bigalow and Chassey both being consistant winners in Sprints. (Tom Bigalow is the all time sprint feature winner) Pimm and Halsmer where National Champions in their repected divisions of SCCA PRO Racing (and Im at work, cant reference the entire deal)
Fox, Karl and Cannon where respected oval track racers. Fox had a very bright future as an up and comer. Giacomelli and Crawford were ex F1, with Jim also showing quite well in the revived CanAm. Wilson's credentials were somewhat flakey with the Aurora F1 deal for vintage F1 cars. While I always considered her a gimmick, she did WIN races in her series.

How in the hell can you compare this list of real racing car drivers for the sham that has been shoved down the publics throat since the split

Marty Roth
Tyce Carlson
Sarah Fisher

Give us a break

Ziggy
Wym Eikmans to name a few

Racewriter
05-11-04, 04:47 PM
Franky, your confused about what it should take to even be allowed on the track. Bettenhausen, John Paul Jr where winners in Champcars. Gary in several different disciplines of USAC cars. Bigalow and Chassey both being consistant winners in Sprints. (Tom Bigalow is the all time sprint feature winner) Pimm and Halsmer where National Champions in their repected divisions of SCCA PRO Racing (and Im at work, cant reference the entire deal)
Fox, Karl and Cannon where respected oval track racers. Fox had a very bright future as an up and comer. Giacomelli and Crawford were ex F1, with Jim also showing quite well in the revived CanAm. Wilson's credentials were somewhat flakey with the Aurora F1 deal for vintage F1 cars. While I always considered her a gimmick, she did WIN races in her series.

How in the hell can you compare this list of real racing car drivers for the sham that has been shoved down the publics throat since the split

Marty Roth
Tyce Carlson
Sarah Fisher

Give us a break

Ziggy
Wym Eikmans to name a few

Yep.

Among others, Ciprich has two Oswego Classics and numerous NASCAR modified wins.

More overall race wins in that DNQ list than in the friggin' 2004 Indy entry.

Joe in LA
05-11-04, 05:49 PM
Didn't Jacques Sr. win an IndyCar race?

Mike Kellner
05-11-04, 05:55 PM
"Didn't Jacques Sr. win an IndyCar race?"

Road America, 1985.

mk

Hink
05-11-04, 05:59 PM
... Pimm and Halsmer where National Champions in their repected divisions of SCCA PRO Racing (and Im at work, cant reference the entire deal)...

Pimm was Super Vee Champ in 1983. 82 was Andretti and 81 was Unser IIRC.

Hink
05-11-04, 06:00 PM
"Didn't Jacques Sr. win an IndyCar race?"

Road America, 1985.

mk

I was there!

DaveL
05-11-04, 06:37 PM
And horror of horrors, there were cars there that year that were not available to everone else. For every Penske Panzer, there was a Ligier, Theodore, and DSR-1.

Good thing the IRL was created to prevent such exclusive failures from ever appearing again.

FRANKY
05-11-04, 09:59 PM
Franky, your confused about what it should take to even be allowed on the track. Bettenhausen, John Paul Jr where winners in Champcars. Gary in several different disciplines of USAC cars. Bigalow and Chassey both being consistant winners in Sprints. (Tom Bigalow is the all time sprint feature winner) Pimm and Halsmer where National Champions in their repected divisions of SCCA PRO Racing (and Im at work, cant reference the entire deal)
Fox, Karl and Cannon where respected oval track racers. Fox had a very bright future as an up and comer. Giacomelli and Crawford were ex F1, with Jim also showing quite well in the revived CanAm. Wilson's credentials were somewhat flakey with the Aurora F1 deal for vintage F1 cars. While I always considered her a gimmick, she did WIN races in her series.

How in the hell can you compare this list of real racing car drivers for the sham that has been shoved down the publics throat since the split

Marty Roth
Tyce Carlson
Sarah Fisher

Give us a break

Ziggy
Wym Eikmans to name a few

I concede my mistake. I wasn't familar with their credentials just their stats as non winners in CART. I am in total agreement with the premise that more qualifers reduces the wanker field factor.

Hot Rod Otis
05-11-04, 10:05 PM
Yep.

Among others, Ciprich has two Oswego Classics and numerous NASCAR modified wins.

More overall race wins in that DNQ list than in the friggin' 2004 Indy entry.

Yep, Ciprich was a damn good super-mod shoe.

I've always thought that the ideal open-wheel short trackfeeder series for Indy should be Super-mods, NOT front engined USAC cars.. Up here in upstate NY, I've seen both winged and non-winged super-mods, and to me, those are the closest thing to Indycars that you'll see racing on your local 1/2 mile bull-ring. In fact, winged ISMA Super-mods are downright scary there so frigging fast. I saw a ISMA winged super-mod show @ Spencer Speedway, a flat 1/2 mile oval in Williamson NY a while ago, and those guys could flat out haul the mail. To me, thats yet another reason why the IRL short track zealots are a bunch of hypocrites. All they cared about was USAC guys getting to Indy. They didn't give a rats @ss about Oswego or ISMA super-mod guys getting to Indy, or WoOguys or NASCAR modified drivers. You never saw any of the TF regulars bitching because Mike Stefanick or Tyler Walker never got a shot @ Indy glory. The only non-USAC guy they ever really gave a s**** about was Steve Kinser. And that was becasue he was from Indiana. If Steve Kinser was from Kearney, Nebraska or Saline, Kansas, the TF regulars could have cared less about him.

DaveL
05-11-04, 10:27 PM
The new Lemming mantra is "quality over quantity", so really that long list of dnq'd drivers was a bad thing. See, cuz they drove cars that had no chance of winning and the teams may or may not have had a lot of money so Indy is better off without them.

Steve99
05-12-04, 01:02 AM
The new Lemming mantra is "quality over quantity", so really that long list of dnq'd drivers was a bad thing. See, cuz they drove cars that had no chance of winning and the teams may or may not have had a lot of money so Indy is better off without them.

So, only the 2 Penske cars are needed this year? Penske wins them all anyways.

Steve99
05-12-04, 01:11 AM
Sounds like they are starting to scrounge around for more:

"I think we'll wait to see how things flush out coming out of the weekend," Griffin said. "But I'm picking up confidence internally and from the garage area."

Just getting to 33, however, will not guarantee a full field. Accidents or injuries could create additional problems, but Hull believes that if the IRL asks owners to help, they'll respond.

"I think everybody will pull together in the IRL," Hull said. "I think any team that's here in the paddocks that is asked with financial support will think about it."


"asked with financial support"? Interesting phrase.

full article (http://sports.excite.com/news/05112004/v7521.html)

theunions
05-12-04, 03:04 AM
Twenty years ago you had several "capable" drivers (and a three-time champ) not make the field.

It should be noted that JR actually did make the field - in a Foyt backup, finishing 22nd. He started the month as Sullivan's teammate at Shierson and also struggled wtih the aforementioned DSR-1, which he vacated without making a qualifying attempt (unlike Danny).

Whatever happened to Chandler, Pimm and Ciprich?

Racewriter
05-12-04, 10:08 AM
Yep, Ciprich was a damn good super-mod shoe.

I've always thought that the ideal open-wheel short trackfeeder series for Indy should be Super-mods, NOT front engined USAC cars.. Up here in upstate NY, I've seen both winged and non-winged super-mods, and to me, those are the closest thing to Indycars that you'll see racing on your local 1/2 mile bull-ring. In fact, winged ISMA Super-mods are downright scary there so frigging fast. I saw a ISMA winged super-mod show @ Spencer Speedway, a flat 1/2 mile oval in Williamson NY a while ago, and those guys could flat out haul the mail. To me, thats yet another reason why the IRL short track zealots are a bunch of hypocrites. All they cared about was USAC guys getting to Indy. They didn't give a rats @ss about Oswego or ISMA super-mod guys getting to Indy, or WoOguys or NASCAR modified drivers. You never saw any of the TF regulars bitching because Mike Stefanick or Tyler Walker never got a shot @ Indy glory. The only non-USAC guy they ever really gave a s**** about was Steve Kinser. And that was becasue he was from Indiana. If Steve Kinser was from Kearney, Nebraska or Saline, Kansas, the TF regulars could have cared less about him.

Not sure I agree with that. I am - or was - an "IRL short-track zealot," and I definitely thought (and think) that the supermod guys were a prime talent pool. Hamilton did well during his time in the League, and I hoped for better equipment for Joe Gosek. Many of us took up the cause of Troy Regier, as well. Stefanik was in BGN at the time, but the NASCAR mods would have made a good talent pool. I'm still not sold on Tyler Walker. For all the bucks spent on him, he hasn't a pavement win to his credit.

In either 1994 or 1995, Davey Hamilton's pole speed for the Copper Classic supermodified race would have qualified him 13th for that same year's CART race at Phoenix. Those cars are nasty fast...

Racewriter
05-12-04, 10:10 AM
It should be noted that JR actually did make the field - in a Foyt backup, finishing 22nd. He started the month as Sullivan's teammate at Shierson and also struggled wtih the aforementioned DSR-1, which he vacated without making a qualifying attempt (unlike Danny).

Whatever happened to Chandler, Pimm and Ciprich?


Zig has talked about Chandler already. Pimm did some CART and sportscar stuff throughout the 80s, and ended up driving Mike Curb's NASCAR Buick in 1988. It didn't go real well.

Ciprich was toward the tail end of his career at the time, but I think he ran supers for a while after 1984. That wasn't his first attempt at Indy IIRC.

extramundane
05-12-04, 10:23 AM
Pimm did some CART and sportscar stuff throughout the 80s, and ended up driving Mike Curb's NASCAR Buick in 1988. It didn't go real well.

He also showed up frequently on r.a.s.i circa '95-96.

Brickman
05-12-04, 11:03 AM
In either 1994 or 1995, Davey Hamilton's pole speed for the Copper Classic supermodified race would have qualified him 13th for that same year's CART race at Phoenix. Those cars are nasty fast...

Nasty fast but thin fields. It was usually a dual between two. I figured they were stronger (more cars) in the east. But they could still put on a show.

theunions
05-13-04, 03:33 AM
Zig has talked about Chandler already.

But not in a recent enough timeframe to satisfy me. ;)

What happened to Mike after his abortive attempt at Indy Lights with Arciero at Phoenix 1987?

About 2 years ago, I saw an episode of "Car Crazy" featuring Otis Chandler. Archival sportscar footage used from Watkins Glen showed a pre-Indycar Mike working with his dad who was driving that weekend...but neither Otis nor Meguiar even alluded to Mike by name throughout the entire show...???


Pimm did some CART and sportscar stuff throughout the 80s, and ended up driving Mike Curb's NASCAR Buick in 1988. It didn't go real well.

That's well-documented, but what about afterwards?



Ciprich was toward the tail end of his career at the time, but I think he ran supers for a while after 1984. That wasn't his first attempt at Indy IIRC.


Actually I think that was the only year he was ever entered.

theunions
05-13-04, 03:34 AM
(Pimm) also showed up frequently on r.a.s.i circa '95-96.

I remember that. But was that really him???

Hot Rod Otis
05-13-04, 08:46 AM
Ciprich was also entered at Indy in 83.

I read somehwere a while back that Pimm and his wife were in the horse traing busines around Columbus. At one time there was an Ed Pimm in the Columbus phone book, don't know if it was THE Ed Pimm though.

pchall
05-13-04, 09:40 AM
Sounds like they are starting to scrounge around for more:
"asked with financial support"? Interesting phrase.


Meaning: "We will pay you THIS much to run another car."

skaven
05-13-04, 11:20 PM
Meaning: "We will pay you THIS much to run another car."

Who is "we?"

I hope it is TG's money being wasted here. How much longer until he spends that last of his inheritance?