View Full Version : 10 Years Ago
The same year 45 different drivers tried to qualify for the Indy 500, and the same year the IRL was announced, this was one of the big stories from the month of May. It kinda gives you an idea of what the Vision really is. When you read it, think about pre-approved suppliers paying the Earl juice money to compete & mfg badging requirements.
1994 Carl Hungness Indy 500 Yearbook, page 18 reported by Bruce Martin
“The most compelling story at Indianapolis Motor Speedway in the two days of practice does not concern drivers or engines, but food and the high cost of doing business at the 2.5 mile track.
The catoring policy established by the Speedway has raged so strong, the Indianapolis 500 is being rocked by a scandale known as “Cater-gate.”
The luxerious motorhomes of drivers, teams and sponsors that sit outside the of Gasoline Alley and are used to entertain guests and serve meals were hit with some strong stipulations by the (IMS) management. The 50 or so occupants on motorhome row were told they would not be allowed to cook their own meals or hire another catering operation. Instead, the Speedway said they had to use the catering operation of Jonothan Byrd, the rotund owner and operator of Jonathon Byrd’s Cafeteria in Greenwood, Ind….
…But what is infuriating the race teams is meals that could be prepared by the team’s full-time cook costing $3 to $4 apiece are now costing each team $7.50 to $12.50 per person for breakfasts, from $10 to 12.50 for lunches and from $15 to $25 for race-day dinners. Byrd is also getting $12 for a gallon of iced tea, $10 for a dozen donuts and $24 for a bottle of water that can be purchased elsewhere for $5.
‘And this is coming from Tony George who wants to take over the sport and lower the cost of racing,’ said one team owner. ‘If he wants to lower the cost of racing, he could start at his own track.’”
...and the Yearbook people were kicked out too.
...and the Yearbook people were kicked out too.
Yep. Tony basically went on a campaign to put Hungness out of business and he succeeded. Just more of Tony's concern for the "little guy" at work.
Spicoli
05-08-04, 01:05 PM
Jug Eckert got rich too.
At least his apple butter and biscuits was kick-ass. I ate that crap for breakfast every morning in May. Did wonders for a tummy full of last night's warm beer.
Brickman
05-08-04, 01:12 PM
1-800-Wahhhh... I mean Mayyyyyyyy. ;)
Here's a another one 25 years ago to yip about.
"In 1979 CART held its first race in Phoenix and it was sanctioned by the Sports Car Club of America (SCCA). USAC was still running its National Championship separate from CART’s. When the time came around to submit entries for the Indianapolis 500(still sanctioned by USAC) several CART teams tried to enter. USAC rejected the entries because the members of CART were not in good standing with USAC over the separation. CART took USAC and IMS to court over the matter and a judge promptly ordered the entries to be accepted. In 1979, CART acquired sponsorship of PPG and renamed the series “PPG Indy Car World Series”. Between 1979 and 1981, several tracks previously associated with USAC jumped ship and went to CART. By 1982 the Indy 500 was the only USAC sanctioned Champ car/Indy race, essentially ending the USAC National Championship. Throughout the 80’s many road and street courses were added to CART’s schedule."
Sadly racing isn't always about racing, it's equally about piss poor business decisions. Narrow minded decisions yield narrow minded results. Whether decision by committee or decision by one the consequences can be equally damaging. So is life...
pineapple
05-08-04, 01:42 PM
Brickman, I don't fully understand your attempted correlation between TG's actions 10 years ago and CART's actions of 25 years ago. If anything, your quote sharpens the contrast between a vibrant and thriving business and a low-rent, desperate and grasping den of thieves.
So, 10 years ago TG was yammering about lowering the costs while jobbing the guys who made the money for him ($24 for a bottle of water?!) in May.
Is it safe to assume that NASCAR did not receive the same treatment in their inaugural run at Indy in the same year?
25 years ago CART made the decisions to divorce USAC (and got their first taste of the IMS lockout thuggery), add some road/street courses, and acquire a series sponsor - decisions that benefited TG 15 years down the road.
Sounds to me like a coked-up committee of one made the piss poor business decisions.
He just wants to be chums
Brickman
05-08-04, 02:07 PM
Brickman, I don't fully understand your attempted correlation between TG's actions 10 years ago and CART's actions of 25 years ago. If anything, your quote sharpens the contrast between a vibrant and thriving business and a low-rent, desperate and grasping den of thieves.
So, 10 years ago TG was yammering about lowering the costs while jobbing the guys who made the money for him ($24 for a bottle of water?!) in May.
Is it safe to assume that NASCAR did not receive the same treatment in their inaugural run at Indy in the same year?
25 years ago CART made the decisions to divorce USAC (and got their first taste of the IMS lockout thuggery), add some road/street courses, and acquire a series sponsor - decisions that benefited TG 15 years down the road.
Sounds to me like a coked-up committee of one made the piss poor business decisions.
Honestly decisions 10 years ago are not a blip on the radar. For that matter 25 years ago aren't either. What's happened since the split and the morph job is where the damage is really occuring. CART II business model will do for the Indy 500 what it did for CART. That's about it.
Mike Kellner
05-08-04, 02:22 PM
If CART had not been formed, there wouldn't have been an Indy 500 for Tony to inherit. The IMS fiasco was in play when CART stepped in to save the sport. Their action was not a piss poor decision that ruined the sport, but a necessary move that nearly saved the sport from USAC/IMS incompetence. The series that supplied the cars for the Indy 500 was in failure mode, and USAC didn't lift a finger to fix it, because in their Indycentric view of the universe, as long as the 500 was selling out, nothing else mattered. We all see how well IndyCar racing has fared since the monarchy was restored. If it wasn't for CART, 94 would have already seen NASCAR running the 500.
The good news is, the Indy 500 is about to die. When it is gone, open wheel will no longer have its putrid corpse hanging around its neck, and will finally be able to focus on building a viable sport, as opposed to providing the meal ticket for a family of parasites. The funniest part is, in the end Tony will have saved US open wheel racing, from the Hulman family.
mk
Imagine there's no Indy, it's easy if you try...
pineapple
05-08-04, 02:27 PM
Honestly decisions 10 years ago are not a blip on the radar. For that matter 25 years ago aren't either. What's happened since the split and the morph job is where the damage is really occuring. CART II business model will do for the Indy 500 what it did for CART. That's about it.
Huh?
If you're trying to focus on "what happened since the split and morph job" why did you bring up what happened 25 years ago?
TG's current going-out-of-business model will not only do for the Indy 500, it will also do in the IRL as a whole. Don't limit the damage to a single race at a single track; Tony is dismantling his whole miniscule empire brick by brick.
Blip on the radar, ping on the sonar, echo in the chamber, whatever...those alarms were going off in the heads of Tony's followers 10 years ago - too bad the Johnny Mellencamp music was so loud they couldn't hear it.
Railbird
05-08-04, 03:13 PM
I'm living the Indy Dream right here within eashot of the old Speedplant
Uh, the Indy Dream is all about the Pacers and the mini marathon isn't it?
It better be because the race buzz is on the oregano level.
Thanks TG
Madmaxfan2
05-08-04, 03:50 PM
Don't compare TG operations to oregano, that is an insult to fine tasting herb. TG's operations are more like weed, which is what the IRL leaders have been smoking again.
He just wants to be chums
He musta took the "let me be the boil on your ass" route in winning friends and influencing enemies course.
Brickman
05-08-04, 05:55 PM
Huh?
If you're trying to focus on "what happened since the split and morph job" why did you bring up what happened 25 years ago?
TG's current going-out-of-business model will not only do for the Indy 500, it will also do in the IRL as a whole. Don't limit the damage to a single race at a single track; Tony is dismantling his whole miniscule empire brick by brick.
Blip on the radar, ping on the sonar, echo in the chamber, whatever...those alarms were going off in the heads of Tony's followers 10 years ago - too bad the Johnny Mellencamp music was so loud they couldn't hear it.
It's not what happened 10, 15, or 25 years ago that fans should yip about. Keeping CART teams out 25 years ago, "Cater-gate, 25/8 are just blips. Adopting CART manufacturer type relationships is what is dooming the Indy 500 more than any of those non-events. Tony is indeed dismanteling Indy brick by brick, he first started by disenfranchising the fans, but fans still came, tickets were still bought... but now he has undermined existing owners that created the teams. Less than 33 is wrong and there is no spin that could ever be made to make it right. It's the here and now and the future that counts, spec fords here we come.
but fans still came, tickets were still bought..but fans still came, tickets were still bought..but fans still came, tickets were still bought..but fans still came, tickets were still bought..but fans still came, tickets were still bought..but fans still came, tickets were still bought..
www.trackforum.com
You guys know any of them????????
Ziggy
It's not what happened 10, 15, or 25 years ago that fans should yip about.
Are you familiar with the term "root cause"?
Everything that has happened since '94 has just been Tony George scrambling to try and make his power grab work. The notion that it would be working now if it weren't for one decision or another in the last year or two is just pure nonsense.
Tony sold out to the manufacturers precisely because what he was doing before wasn't working. The IRL was sinking fast and taking the Indy 500 with it. Toyota offered him a life preserver full of cash and he grabbed it.
Spicoli
05-08-04, 07:42 PM
It's our fault, cause we won't go along "kicking and screaming".....
Mike Kellner
05-08-04, 07:46 PM
"It's our fault, cause we won't go along "kicking and screaming"....."
That was because we just didn't know what Indy meant.
mk
Imagine there's no Indy, it's easy if you try...
racer2c
05-08-04, 08:26 PM
Are you familiar with the term "root cause"?
Everything that has happened since '94 has just been Tony George scrambling to try and make his power grab work. The notion that it would be working now if it weren't for one decision or another in the last year or two is just pure nonsense.
Tony sold out to the manufacturers precisely because what he was doing before wasn't working. The IRL was sinking fast and taking the Indy 500 with it. Toyota offered him a life preserver full of cash and he grabbed it.
Bingo!
The Titanic is sinking, the lifeboats are full and Tony in the water is clinging to flotsam and jetsam.
Bingo!
The Titanic is sinking, the lifeboats are full and Tony in the water is clinging to flotsam and jetsam.
More likely that he's conducting the orchestra playing on deck while the ship sinks.
-Kevin
pineapple
05-08-04, 10:25 PM
It's not what happened 10, 15, or 25 years ago that fans should yip about. Keeping CART teams out 25 years ago, "Cater-gate, 25/8 are just blips. Adopting CART manufacturer type relationships is what is dooming the Indy 500 more than any of those non-events. Tony is indeed dismanteling Indy brick by brick, he first started by disenfranchising the fans, but fans still came, tickets were still bought... but now he has undermined existing owners that created the teams. Less than 33 is wrong and there is no spin that could ever be made to make it right. It's the here and now and the future that counts, spec fords here we come.
Well, I'll "yip" about the "blips" and your so-called "non-events" because they are, as NRC stated, the root cause of the absolute disgust I feel about what one man has done to my favorite sport. You, on the other hand, can keep on yammering about the doom of the Indy 500 while continuing to ignore the larger scope of that doom: the IRL.
As for those disenfranchised fans, it appears that an increasing majority of them are still buying tickets all right - to the Pacers games, the mini marathon, the Brickyard 400, the movies and church raffles....There remains a laughable handful of existing original owners for Boy Blunder to undermine, the majority have driven off the next exit ramp because the Little League that could make it affordable for them morphed into swingin dick wannabe who now wants to play with the big boys in the bricked-in prison yard.
You should be happy (and hopeful) that there may be a spec ford future for you; it may just make the Little League affordable once again for those disenfranchised original team owners who got played like kazoos in the house orchestra at that dump on 16th and Georgetown.
pineapple gets the "huge call of the day" award
OUT
Ziggy
Is there anything that TG has done that has proven to be right in the long run?
Brickyard was a no brainer. USGP, the jury's still out. A great event but hardly at the level many feel it chould be - the course sucks.
But if we start a list of all the bad decisions that TG has made starting with catergate and beyond it gets pretty ugly. 25/8, Indy being the season ending race, double secret extra boost for the Menards, raiding CART sponsors, raiding CART drivers, raiding CART teams, raiding CART tracks, attempting to buy CART, etc. Its ugly. And this man is the saviour for the sport? Get real. He is as Dan Gurney said a charlatan.
Nice post Pineapple. :thumbup:
Brickman
05-08-04, 11:36 PM
Are you familiar with the term "root cause"?
Everything that has happened since '94 has just been Tony George scrambling to try and make his power grab work. The notion that it would be working now if it weren't for one decision or another in the last year or two is just pure nonsense.
Tony sold out to the manufacturers precisely because what he was doing before wasn't working. The IRL was sinking fast and taking the Indy 500 with it. Toyota offered him a life preserver full of cash and he grabbed it.
I am familar with the term. Then cut to the chase and simply point out that the decline in the 500 can be directly contributed to TG's power grab. Catergate means nothing compared to the big picture. That's what I am saying.
Well, I'll "yip" about the "blips" and your so-called "non-events" because they are, as NRC stated, the root cause of the absolute disgust I feel about what one man has done to my favorite sport. You, on the other hand, can keep on yammering about the doom of the Indy 500 while continuing to ignore the larger scope of that doom: the IRL.
As for those disenfranchised fans, it appears that an increasing majority of them are still buying tickets all right - to the Pacers games, the mini marathon, the Brickyard 400, the movies and church raffles....There remains a laughable handful of existing original owners for Boy Blunder to undermine, the majority have driven off the next exit ramp because the Little League that could make it affordable for them morphed into swingin dick wannabe who now wants to play with the big boys in the bricked-in prison yard.
You should be happy (and hopeful) that there may be a spec ford future for you; it may just make the Little League affordable once again for those disenfranchised original team owners who got played like kazoos in the house orchestra at that dump on 16th and Georgetown.
I am well aware of the state of the IRL. Personally I don't think the IRL can survive in it's present business form, in it's present business direction. I am more interested in the bigger picture, the sport of open wheel. AS you say I keep "yammering about the doom of the Indy 500", for good reason. It's the foundation for the IRL and for that matter... open wheel in America. If it no longer can capture the sponsors, manufacturers, fans, TV, etc then the fate of all of open wheel is at risk not just the IRL.
As I said at TF. "Tony George always thinks that it's the next domino that he knocks down that will make them all embrace the formula. But they don't. Al Unser Jr. coming over didn't make the difference, Penske, Ganassi, Toyota or Honda." Will road courses (the next domino) make a difference? Not to the disenfranchised fan it won't. Not to anyone if the performane is bad. No one should be happy that the IRL will emulate CART and go all spec. Especially when there are better alternatives. The stupid thing about the whole mess is the complete lack of common sense.
AS you say I keep "yammering about the doom of the Indy 500", for good reason. It's the foundation for the IRL and for that matter... open wheel in America.
Bzzztt. Wrong. The world of open wheel racing in America does NOT revolve around Indy. That thinking, by FTG and others, is what caused this whole mess in the first place.
Brickman
05-08-04, 11:56 PM
Bzzztt. Wrong. The world of open wheel racing in America does NOT revolve around Indy. That thinking, by FTG and others, is what caused this whole mess in the first place.
I respectfully disagree. If there was no longer an Indy 500 I believe all of open wheel would suffer in the long run.
At what point did I say that Catergate was the cause of the current problems, and how did this thread become a debate on whether or not it was?
Catergate was a just a manifestation of how Anton does business. We see his way of doing things on a much larger scale with his absurd mfg badging requirements and the disallowance of anything other than that which was made by an approved supplier (I'm still trying to figure out which 2 traditions are being upheld with those).
Catergate is also an example of Idiotgrandson fixing what wasn't broke and alienating people in the process-much like his latest Version has alienated more and more IRL fans in the same way the original Version alienated CART fans.
Think of Catergate as a microcasm of everything that is wrong with that brain dead Inheretor. It serves as a reminder of how things were 10 years ago before Tony decided he had to fix things, and only screwed them up even more.
Eagle104
05-09-04, 12:30 AM
I respectfully disagree. If there was no longer an Indy 500 I believe all of open wheel would suffer in the long run.
What, there would be a moritorium on all other races out of mourning?
No, openwheel racing would continue on. 33 is just a number..and the Irl 500 is just a race -- now.
pineapple
05-09-04, 12:33 AM
I respectfully disagree. If there was no longer an Indy 500 I believe all of open wheel would suffer in the long run.
Wrong answer, respectful or not. Open wheel racing is suffering now - with the Indy 500 in play. Explain or excuse that.
It suffers because of the actions of one person, who well aware of his shortcomings and his gross inability to be anything near what his grandfather was, decided that a scorched earth policy would be the best tactic to get his way. The fire he set not only charred his purported enemies (who are now sitting in his pagoda fully recovered from their wounds) but also laid waste to his own inheritance.
Should the Indy 500 cease to be an annual event, the only ones who will hurt even more than they do now are those little teams you seem to be so concerned about, and the auxiliary support businesses such as hoteliers, vendors, mechanics, et al. You conveniently forget that CART continued for years without the Indy 500, and does so to this day under the OWRS banner.
What I'm trying to figure out right now is whether you are pimping the IMS agenda or strolling the track whoring for that pie-eyed piper, Tony George - the line's too fine to make a clear distinction. If you're pimping an agenda here, then you should dress the part so we can all be clear about where you're coming from.
IRL Shill Outfit (http://www.pimphats.com)
Brickman
05-09-04, 02:06 AM
At what point did I say that Catergate was the cause of the current problems, and how did this thread become a debate on whether or not it was?
You didn't. I just pointed out that there were more substantive issues to complain about.
Wrong answer, respectful or not. Open wheel racing is suffering now - with the Indy 500 in play. Explain or excuse that.
It suffers because of the actions of one person, who well aware of his shortcomings and his gross inability to be anything near what his grandfather was, decided that a scorched earth policy would be the best tactic to get his way. The fire he set not only charred his purported enemies (who are now sitting in his pagoda fully recovered from their wounds) but also laid waste to his own inheritance.
Should the Indy 500 cease to be an annual event, the only ones who will hurt even more than they do now are those little teams you seem to be so concerned about, and the auxiliary support businesses such as hoteliers, vendors, mechanics, et al. You conveniently forget that CART continued for years without the Indy 500, and does so to this day under the OWRS banner.
What I'm trying to figure out right now is whether you are pimping the IMS agenda or strolling the track whoring for that pie-eyed piper, Tony George - the line's too fine to make a clear distinction. If you're pimping an agenda here, then you should dress the part so we can all be clear about where you're coming from.
IRL Shill Outfit (http://www.pimphats.com)
Open wheel is suffering with the Indy 500 "in play" is because of the IRL adopted CART's business model. It was wrong for CART and it is wrong for the IRL. Plain and simple. In my opinion the Indy 500 was on the road back in recent years, but is slipping back. Right or wrong that's what I believe.
I'm not "pimping an agenda" anymore than you are. If the suit fits wear it. I didn't "conveniently forget" anything, I was discussing Indy 500 issues and how they affected open wheel. Yes the IRL/Indy 500 did affect Champ Car. CART may have "continued for years without the Indy 500" but it's a shadow of it's former self, it's swapped places with the IRL in almost every way but without Indy. This is more directly tied to the same woes that are affecting the 500 right now, the involvment of Toyota and Honda. The savior of open wheel thought he had the saviours for the IRL but he didn't. I said it was a bunch of crap when it started.
P.S. Can they make one with the checkered flag instead of Zebra (http://www.pimphats.com/images003/0004_pimphatsdotcom_vvblkzeb_full.jpg) stripes? ;)
Mike Kellner
05-09-04, 02:13 AM
I disrespectfully disagree. Indy is a dead albatross around the neck of US open wheel, and only when it joins Olds & Northern Lights for a long nap with the fishes will the sport have a chance. The reason open wheel was never the big success it is in Europe was, the 500 overshadowed the rest of the racing. CART almost changed that, but the Hulman Empire decided they'd rather destroy the sport than let anyone else have a major part in it. What did your fellow Irl Toadie, Turn 13, call it? Oh yea, exporting value from Indy. That is literally how they viewed it, open wheel was theirs, and anyone else who actually made money or had success had stolen it from the Hulman Empire.
Well those days are about over. The monster they unleashed on CART to destroy it is now destroying the family jewel. It is my fervent hope that when Tony the Clueless gets done ruining Indy, they they put him in charge of the rest of the family business, so he can work the same magic there. I can't wait for the day I see pictures of Mari pushing her belongings around in a shopping cart.
mk
Imagine there's no Indy, it's easy if you try...
Think of Catergate as a microcasm of everything that is wrong with that brain dead Inheretor. It serves as a reminder of how things were 10 years ago before Tony decided he had to fix things, and only screwed them up even more.
Good point. CART had developed a paddock world that included the fans and the B2B clients into one event and made the the transport tents and the work on the race cars a major part of every race weekend. Despite itself CART was on to something.
Tony George chose cronyism and high profits for his buddies in Indy as the future of IMS instead.
The reason open wheel was never the big success it is in Europe was, the 500 overshadowed the rest of the racing. CART almost changed that, but the Hulman Empire decided they'd rather destroy the sport than let anyone else have a major part in it..
F5000 could have changed that. It almost did.
We could have an entire thread about SCCA dancing with USAC/IMS... :(
Railbird
05-09-04, 08:47 AM
Tony George chose cronyism and high profits for his buddies in Indy as the future of IMS instead.
truer words were never spoken.
The chincy profit squeezing and "insider" favoritism is running at an all time high these days. I grew up watching the "friends of Anton" having free riegn in the place but it was never this bad.
eiregosod
05-09-04, 11:00 AM
<<The chincy profit squeezing and "insider" favoritism is running at an all time high these days. I grew up watching the "friends of Anton" having free riegn in the place but it was never this bad>>
it just shows how TG is an all around good guy, he lived in luxury all his life, and now with riches beyond anyones wildest dreams he wants his friends to share in that
Spicoli
05-09-04, 04:45 PM
In my opinion the Indy 500 was on the road back in recent years, but is slipping back. Right or wrong that's what I believe...
On the road back to what? First - you don't live in Indy, and you can't have any clue about "roads back to................whatever."
Its been a steady slide down the sewer for 9 years now. Get real.
Indy was the reason for Indianapolis to exist. It was seeded in every aspect of the city's culture. It's was what every kid wanted to achieve when growing up. Its how every TV script writer analogized "Fast". Cars were named after it. People planned their vacations around it. Seats were handed down within generations of families.....etc.
The idiotgrandson has ****ing destroyed everything.
I was at the local watering hole in BR last night, talking to the local guys who normally discuss every sporting news from Payton Manning to Tiger Woods to Ron Artest to College and high School athletes and everything inbetween. Not one mention of Indy. Not a "are you going?" Not a "Who you think looks good this year?" I'll be the Kentucky Derby got more discussion and beats their TV ratings too.
Here - in the HEART of Indianapolis, there hasn't been one god damned discussion about Indy for years. The only item worth discussion is that the race won't sell out. And even that is a stretch......
NO ONE CARES - TONY GEORGE KILLED IT. :flame:
P.S. "I respectfully disagee..." :rolleyes:
RaceGrrl
05-09-04, 06:11 PM
Open wheel is suffering with the Indy 500 "in play" is because of the IRL adopted CART's business model. It was wrong for CART and it is wrong for the IRL. Plain and simple. In my opinion the Indy 500 was on the road back in recent years, but is slipping back. Right or wrong that's what I believe.
Is that the business model that CART was forced to adopt when they didn't have the 500 anymore? Tony has killed the 500, so in a sense I guess you're right about that because he doesn't have it now either.
Great thread, and some really great additions being made by the usuall suspects that I do consider my friends. I have taken the time to meet each of you at CART events. (pineapple, would like to meet you someday) What Lemmings fail to realize, and why I posted the "they still come, they still buy tickets" over and over and over is this. No CART fans ever bought tickets into that sham. Of a crowd of 30 who went to every qualification day, NO ONE EVEN GOES ANYMORE. There is a huge CART fan base in Indianapolis. These are the people who spend money. They go to other races. They never, ever bought into the vision.
Once the vision got into high gear, the real journalist who covered the events quit writing. Here come the Dave Despains of the world, Dr Jerry Punch, give me a f##king break. Now today Bob Kravits asks "where are the stories" Well, Bob, holding your foot down after you opened your wallet is not that big of news.
DaveL starts a thread about catergate and Brickman (aka Silva2) spins it into one of his " its you fans fault" messages. I loved Spicoli's comment, Why, cause we wont go kicking and screaming? That was GREAT!
To MikeK, DaveL, SteveH, RaceGrrl, pineapple, pchall, Railbird, Eagle104 and spicoli, thanks for cheering my day up. I also feel a great loss as to how great the Indy 500 USED to be. It will never be the same, and I really do believe
THE INDY 500 IS DEAD FOREVER AND EVER
Ziggy
'bird, I got news (good)
Hot Rod Otis
05-09-04, 07:53 PM
Hey DaveL, still think Brickman ain't a lemming? He's the worst kind of lemming. The kind who ain't got the stones to admit he's one, like silva. I have more respect for Hooter/Defender @ GomerForum. At least theres NO doubt where he stands on the issues.
You didn't. I just pointed out that there were more substantive issues to complain about.
Open wheel is suffering with the Indy 500 "in play" is because of the IRL adopted CART's business model. It was wrong for CART and it is wrong for the IRL. Plain and simple. In my opinion the Indy 500 was on the road back in recent years, but is slipping back. Right or wrong that's what I believe.
I'm not "pimping an agenda" anymore than you are. If the suit fits wear it. I didn't "conveniently forget" anything, I was discussing Indy 500 issues and how they affected open wheel. Yes the IRL/Indy 500 did affect Champ Car. CART may have "continued for years without the Indy 500" but it's a shadow of it's former self, it's swapped places with the IRL in almost every way but without Indy. This is more directly tied to the same woes that are affecting the 500 right now, the involvment of Toyota and Honda. The savior of open wheel thought he had the saviours for the IRL but he didn't. I said it was a bunch of crap when it started.
P.S. Can they make one with the checkered flag instead of Zebra (http://www.pimphats.com/images003/0004_pimphatsdotcom_vvblkzeb_full.jpg) stripes? ;)
it was on the road back when 1-6 were non IRL drivers, yes, interest was up, especially with regard to my plethora of euro friends that year, but dude, c'mon, wtf has it been going back to ever other than that one year?
eiregosod
05-09-04, 08:08 PM
Once the vision got into high gear, the real journalist who covered the events quit writing. Here come the Dave Despains of the world, Dr Jerry Punch, give me a f##king break. Now today Bob Kravits asks "where are the stories" Well, Bob, holding your foot down after you opened your wallet is not that big of news.)
There's way too few real journalists who tell the stories of both series these days :(
eiregosod
05-09-04, 08:15 PM
as regards the food-lockout, I wonder if AJ got a special deal with his God-son, Aj eats for 3, I dont think AJ would like to spend $30 for an AJ sized sammich!
Hey DaveL, still think Brickman ain't a lemming? He's the worst kind of lemming. The kind who ain't got the stones to admit he's one, like silva.
What's the saying? The devil ya know is better than one ya don't.
racer2c
05-09-04, 08:38 PM
Holy Crap! Brickman's the devil? :eek: :eek: :eek:
Brickman
05-09-04, 09:39 PM
DaveL starts a thread about catergate and Brickman (aka Silva2) spins it into one of his " its you fans fault" messages.
Dave started a thread about catergate and I thought it was dumb because it wasn't a real issue. Sure it was stupid, but in the scheme of things it doesn't matter. But I agree that it was my fault that the subject was steered off course when I said "Sadly racing isn't always about racing, it's equally about piss poor business decisions. Narrow minded decisions yield narrow minded results." because although TRUE (no one said differently) , it opened up the discussion to not just Tony screwing with the eating habits and pocketbooks of owners, it opened up numerous discussions. I'll ask the faithful how they feel about the recent years of the 500.
As far as whether I'm a lemming or not, I have been quite consistant with my point of view about TG and control, and the fact that CART needed to move closer or distance itself completely from the 500. I'm not important enough for people to create a scorecard about my beliefs. Although it would be cute. ;)
ferrarigod
05-09-04, 09:46 PM
Dave started a thread about catergate and I thought it was dumb because it wasn't a real issue. Sure it was stupid, but in the scheme of things it doesn't matter. But I agree that it was my fault that the subject was steered off course when I said "Sadly racing isn't always about racing, it's equally about piss poor business decisions. Narrow minded decisions yield narrow minded results." because although TRUE (no one said differently) , it opened up the discussion to not just Tony screwing with the eating habits and pocketbooks of owners, it opened up numerous discussions. I'll ask the faithful how they feel about the recent years of the 500.
As far as whether I'm a lemming or not, I have been quite consistant with my point of view about TG and control, and the fact that CART needed to move closer or distance itself completely from the 500. I'm not important enough for people to create a scorecard about my beliefs. Although it would be cute. ;)
hey brickman, why don't you go over to crackforum and fix that poll about what the indy took a turn for the worst. I got news for you, the year you forgot to mention is the one where it made its sudden slide. May 1995 is the one I'm referring to
Brickman
05-09-04, 09:47 PM
Is that the business model that CART was forced to adopt when they didn't have the 500 anymore? Tony has killed the 500, so in a sense I guess you're right about that because he doesn't have it now either.
No. The business model that put the hurt on car counts was the manufacturer induced one. When teams receive more money from engine manufacturers than name brand products or companies it spells trouble. It limits competition by raising costs (to non subsidized owners) and also limiting availability. Sure it fattens the wallets of car owners who get it, but subsidies in lieu of real sponsorship shows a weakness in the system.
Spicoli
05-09-04, 09:54 PM
Dave started a thread about catergate and I thought it was dumb because it wasn't a real issue. Sure it was stupid, but in the scheme of things it doesn't matter. But I agree that it was my fault that the subject was steered off course when I said "Sadly racing isn't always about racing, it's equally about piss poor business decisions. Narrow minded decisions yield narrow minded results." because although TRUE (no one said differently) , it opened up the discussion to not just Tony screwing with the eating habits and pocketbooks of owners, it opened up numerous discussions. I'll ask the faithful how they feel about the recent years of the 500.
As far as whether I'm a lemming or not, I have been quite consistant with my point of view about TG and control, and the fact that CART needed to move closer or distance itself completely from the 500. I'm not important enough for people to create a scorecard about my beliefs. Although it would be cute. ;)
OK, I'm ignorant. Enlighten me.
Explain to me your history of working/covering the Indy 500; being involved with it from a business standpoint, or how many years you made the trek from SoCal/Alaska or wherever you live. Did you sell Indy Stars there as a kid? Did you have Senior Skip Day there in High School? Did your family own a Turn 2 Suite? Did you entertain business associates there? Were you part of a team? Did you work PR for an IMS sponsor? Were you working for CART or maybe a team? Did you grow up across the street from the track? Did you dad race there? Were you a yellow shirt at one time? Give me something!
I just get the feeling that you are talking out your *** about this whole subject.
While people like me and Ziggy and Railbord have lived thru the idiotgrandson's regime, many others CAN'T know, and most are smart enough not to pretend they DO know.
As I would so often ask Wilke: "what personal experiences do you draw upon to formulate your conclusion?"
Thanks.
Spicoli
05-09-04, 09:56 PM
No. The business model that put the hurt on car counts was the manufacturer induced one. When teams receive more money from engine manufacturers than name brand products or companies it spells trouble. It limits competition by raising costs (to non subsidized owners) and also limiting availability. Sure it fattens the wallets of car owners who get it, but subsidies in lieu of real sponsorship shows a weakness in the system.
Damn. Go out on a limb there?! :gomer:
Brickman
05-09-04, 10:06 PM
: "what personal experiences do you draw upon to formulate your conclusion?"
Thanks.
Instead of turning this into what you did and what you know thing, which in all honesty doesn't mean s-q-u-a-t because the interim CEO of CART defected, and others who drove and owned teams also did, I can assuredly tell you, I think my opinions of the business of open wheel and their views contrast greatly.
But post a question of what you think and why and I'll give you two cents. I'll stay on topic.
Brickman
05-09-04, 10:10 PM
Damn. Go out on a limb there?! :gomer:
Snap. ;)
Spicoli
05-09-04, 10:15 PM
Instead of turning this into what you did and what you know thing, which in all honesty doesn't mean s-q-u-a-t because the interim CEO of CART defected, and others who drove and owned teams also did, I can assuredly tell you, I think my opinions of the business of open wheel and their views contrast greatly.
But post a question of what you think and why and I'll give you two cents. I'll stay on topic.
Weak man, real weak.
I never said there was a right or wrong answer. You just failed to answer.
So I guess its safe to say you draw all your research from Innernet Racin' Boards, huh? :gomer:
Railbird
05-09-04, 10:19 PM
Brickman, like many others, has no real dog in this fight.
He just enjoys being pain in the *** to those who do.
RaceGrrl
05-09-04, 10:24 PM
No. The business model that put the hurt on car counts was the manufacturer induced one. When teams receive more money from engine manufacturers than name brand products or companies it spells trouble. It limits competition by raising costs (to non subsidized owners) and also limiting availability. Sure it fattens the wallets of car owners who get it, but subsidies in lieu of real sponsorship shows a weakness in the system.
blah blah blah...
Apparently I need these things explained to me because I'm a girl. :rolleyes:
RaceChic
05-09-04, 10:25 PM
Brickman, I always find that the "hot" topics centre around some simple statement that you drop. Ever wonder why? :shakehead
RaceChic
05-09-04, 10:27 PM
Apparently I need these things explained to me because I'm a girl. :rolleyes:
Nah.... you are a Grrrrrl. :D
Racewriter
05-09-04, 10:31 PM
Catergate
Carl Hungness
Artemis Images
TonyTax on engine builders
Original IRL teams
Admin fee deducted from purse payments
What do all of those things have in common?
Catergate
Carl Hungness
Artemis Images
TonyTax on engine builders
Original IRL teams
What do all of those things have in common?
Can I play??
They, in my view, all center around a city in the midwest renowned the world over for holding a race in May that has fallen from grace.
R-Dub,
Am I close? :gomer: :D
blah blah blah...
Apparently I need these things explained to me because I'm a girl. :rolleyes:
No, he needs to "explain" things so he can continue to obsfucate the discussion and keep it going around and around and around and around and around and around and around...
Brickman, you got any cool pictures of Dave McDonald burning up you can post. This thread needs the extra touch of class only a tard like yourself can bestow
www.trackfourm.com
go there, enjoy
Ziggy
Spicoli
05-09-04, 10:59 PM
Brickman, you got any cool pictures of Dave McDonald burning up you can post. This thread needs the extra touch of class only a tard like yourself can bestow
www.trackfourm.com
go there, enjoy
Ziggy
He already belongs Ziggy. He's just here to piss you off.
He already belongs Ziggy. He's just here to piss you off.
Seems to be working.
Mike Kellner
05-10-04, 12:02 AM
I think the dead giveaway on Bricky-poo being a card carrying member of Tony's knee pad brigade is his attempt to some imply that Tony's ruining the Indy 500 is justified, mitigated, or explained by CART saving the sport from USAC mismanagement in the late 70s. As if only CART hadn't been formed, everything would have been just wonderful. Like all Tony's Toadies, he was in a seeming blackout from 1976 thru 1996.
mk
Imagine there's no Indy, it's easy if you try...
RaceGrrl
05-10-04, 12:05 AM
Catergate
Carl Hungness
Artemis Images
TonyTax on engine builders
Original IRL teams
Admin fee deducted from purse payments
What do all of those things have in common?
All parties were screwed over by the Idiot Grandson.
Related to Cateragate and what R-Dub posted, I met a photographer at a sports memorabilia show a few years ago. He used to take pictures for the teams and sell them to the individual crew members as keepsakes, and he charged them a few cents over cost. Well, Anton couldn't have any unathorized pictures being sold on Speedway grounds, so one day he was taken to an office where his film was confiscated and was told in no uncertain terms that if he was ever caught doing that again he'd get his credentials revoked and get hit with a law suite.
Lord Sagamore also stopped the EVIL practice by one CART team of giving free T-shirts away to groups of underprivilaged kids who got annual tours of the garage area. Y'see, only IMS licenced merchandise can be distributed on Speedway grounds. (Story told by a crew member at the Milwaukee paddock in 1996)
As Hooter would say, The Fabulous IRL-By the numbers.
Mike Kellner
05-10-04, 12:33 AM
Originally Posted by Racewriter
Catergate
Carl Hungness
Artemis Images
TonyTax on engine builders
Original IRL teams
What do all of those things have in common?
They are piss poor business decisions?
If I may further pontificate...
Narrow minded decisions yield narrow minded results.
I think at this time, a farie tale is in order...
The Goose That Laid The Golden Eggs
by Aesop
A man and his Wife had the good fortune to possess a Goose which
laid a Golden Egg every day. Lucky though they were, they soon began
to think they were not getting rich fast enough, and, imagining the
bird must be made of gold inside, they decided to kill it in order to
secure the whole store of precious metal at once. But when they cut it
open they found it was just like any other goose. Thus, they neither
got rich all at once, as they had hoped, nor enjoyed any longer the
daily addition to their wealth.
Much wants more and loses all.
THE END
pineapple
05-10-04, 12:59 AM
What I've been gathering over the years through these and other discussions is the disdain people have for a man who is so devoid of any kind of character.
I'm not an Indy native, but followed the annual race with the same enthusiasm and sense of excitement as the natives. I cheered my home state hero when he made his attempt at Indy and was devastated when he lost his life trying. Then life got busy and I drifted away for a while, got my interest piqued again when Zanardi made the scene. My brother lived in Indy during the mid- to late 90's and we wouldn't go to the race when I visited because our guys weren't there. Even we as outsiders felt the disgust and anger in tone and mood when the subject came up in conversations.
People can talk about engines, manufacturers, tin-top alliances and all the rest as the business decisions that have hurt the sport, but I also see the catering fiasco, Artemis & Hungness, and downright greedy meanness as business decisions, too. The may be blips on the radar or microcosms in the vastness of the open wheel universe, but they are the ones that count the most with the people whose only vested interest in the sport is their love and enthusiasm.
fourrunner
05-10-04, 01:42 AM
Wasn't Jonathan Byrds Cafeteria the seen of a horrible mass shooting spree a few years ago...
Was that committed by one of the folks that got screwed at IMS or someone who just thought the food sucked ? :eek:
Instead of turning this into what you did and what you know thing, which in all honesty doesn't mean s-q-u-a-t because the interim CEO of CART defected, and others who drove and owned teams also did, I can assuredly tell you, I think my opinions of the business of open wheel and their views contrast greatly.
But post a question of what you think and why and I'll give you two cents. I'll stay on topic.
Spicoli just wants some bona fides out of you. Otherwise your posts just sound like a 20 year old marketing major pulling stuff out of his @$$ for a marketing analysis due in the morning.
'bird is right: Brickman has no dog in this fight.
Mike Kellner
05-10-04, 08:58 AM
Catergate, Carl Hungness, and Artemis Images are examples of Tony destroying the Indy Community. (Note the capital C) One of the things that made Indy what it was, was the community of people whose lives revolved around the Month of May. Indy was a shared community experience. Much of that was destroyed because in the immortal words of Turn13, they were "Exporting value from Indy". Tony looked out at this vast collection of real fans of his birthright and all he saw were parasites who were taking what should have been his. What he didn't understand was that these people added value to the event at least in equal measure to what they left with. They were part of a 500 culture which was a big part of what made the race special. The old 500 movies celebrated that culture, it was all part of the Indy experience. Tony was oblivious to this culture, or at least its worth. Destroying it to put a few more dollars into his already well lined pockets was an act of massive stupidity.
mk
Imagine there's no Indy, it's easy if you try...
Spicoli
05-10-04, 08:59 AM
Spicoli just wants some bona fides out of you. Otherwise your posts just sound like a 20 year old marketing major pulling stuff out of his @$$ for a marketing analysis due in the morning.
'bird is right: Brickman has no dog in this fight.
He doesn't have any fides. If he has a bona, I don't really wanna know. :saywhat:
Madmaxfan2
05-10-04, 09:28 AM
I think it is safe to say that Tony George is only interested in helping Tony George. The creation of the IRL is nothing less, and certainly nothing more.
It wasn't about "saving" the sport. IF THAT EVEN WAS A GOAL OF THE IRL IT FAILED MISERABLY. The other issues are iceing on the cake, examples of TG being TG. How anybody can even in thier right mind defend TG and claim they are a true fan of the sport is beyond me. Anybody who defends the IRL is a fan of TG, justified on some imaginery "loyality" to the Indy 500, the event. Based on his actions, TG himself has no loyality to the event, if he did he would have admitted his mistakes some time ago. To blame the creation of CART in 1979 as a threat to the sport as a justification in the year 2004 for the creation of the IRL is laughable, based on the results of the IRL. Deeds, not words are what is important. Tony's deeds speak for themselves.
sundaydriver2
05-10-04, 11:05 AM
The one thing that really pisses my off, even more than Boy George's destruction of the Indy 500, are the *******s who help him extend his Revision.
Peniski, Fatassi, FAndretti, et al, are extremely short sighted. They may be lining their pockets now, but there will be a price to pay when their is no more Indy 500.
I hope THOSE bastards get their rich deserve. :mad:
Brickman
05-10-04, 11:09 AM
blah blah blah...
Apparently I need these things explained to me because I'm a girl. :rolleyes:
I apologize if it came across as condescending. But when you asked "Is that the business model that CART was forced to adopt when they didn't have the 500 anymore?" I didn't think if I just answered "no" that it would explain enough. Again I apologize.
Oh... to the other issue raised, I asked the faithful (http://www.trackforum.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=42808) and a clear majority think the 500 was coming back but receded again.
Oh... to the other issue raised, I asked the faithful (http://www.trackforum.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=42808) and a clear majority think the 500 was coming back but receded again.
You're basing your position that the Indy 500 was "coming back" on the conclusions of a crowd who refused to admit that it was going away to being with? How screwed up is that?
What are they basing this conclusion on? Ratings? Attendance? Interest? Sponsorship? Car count? Except for increases in sponsorship brought about by adopting what you call the "CART business model" there hasn't been a significant uptick in any of those things since Tony George started his little boondoggle.
Madmaxfan2
05-10-04, 12:29 PM
Brickman, How are the faithful and loyal being rewarded by Tony's creation of the IRL ?
Mike Kellner
05-10-04, 12:34 PM
The CART business model.
Is there any non-Lemming who gives a single unit of fly exhaust about the CART business model, or ever even uses the term?
He's a Lemming, I rest my case.
mk
Imagine there's no Indy, it's easy if you try...
He doesn't have any fides. If he has a bona, I don't really wanna know. :saywhat:
:rofl:
and a "special" :thumbup: award for Brickman
Racewriter
05-10-04, 01:44 PM
in the immortal words of Turn13, they were "Exporting value from Indy".
Wow.
I thought I was an expert by now in forum BS, but I've never heard that one. Bottom line - the minions of IMS have proven themselves incapable of distinguishing between those whose participation ADDS VALUE TO the "Indy experience," and those who "Export Value (bleagh)." Talk to any of these people, and you'll hear the same song with slightly different verses.
Anymore, there are a helluva lot of people who "just don't know what Indy means."
Brickman
05-10-04, 02:46 PM
You're basing your position that the Indy 500 was "coming back" on the conclusions of a crowd who refused to admit that it was going away to being with? How screwed up is that?
What are they basing this conclusion on? Ratings? Attendance? Interest? Sponsorship? Car count? Except for increases in sponsorship brought about by adopting what you call the "CART business model" there hasn't been a significant uptick in any of those things since Tony George started his little boondoggle.
Well... I'm not just drawing conclusions from their opinion anymore than I would from crappy central. But it's interesting to note that here is a crowd that believed that it hadn't gone away, that now believes that the 500 has slipped after Tony's rule. :eek: Even the majority acknowledge that it's slipped since the split.
I think there had been an "uptick" but I think the clouded Paul Tracy loss pulled a rug out from the already disenfranchised, and that even though Gil's win was popular across the board, the adoption of the CART business model will have more negatives than any popular win could...
Brickman
05-10-04, 02:52 PM
Brickman, How are the faithful and loyal being rewarded by Tony's creation of the IRL ?
They aren't.
If anything the next poster won't be captioned Lights Camera Traction it will be more approprietly named... Eyes Wide Shut. They are finally getting up to speed.
Spicoli
05-10-04, 03:35 PM
Well... I'm not just drawing conclusions from their opinion anymore than I would from crappy central. But it's interesting to note that here is a crowd that believed that it hadn't gone away, that now believes that the 500 has slipped after Tony's rule. :eek: Even the majority acknowledge that it's slipped since the split.
I think there had been an "uptick" but I think the clouded Paul Tracy loss pulled a rug out from the already disenfranchised, and that even though Gil's win was popular across the board, the adoption of the CART business model will have more negatives than any popular win could...
Gee. ChampCar fans got upset at PT's win being taken away? Wow!
And nobody gives a rat's ass about Gaylio or Gil. TF doesn't care, I don't care, and neither does anyone else. Try all you want, it's just not working.....except for Cappy Liverspots.
They already have the script written for this year:
Sam Unibow wins it for Penske - 4 in a row.....according to TG.
Skater_36
05-10-04, 04:00 PM
, the adoption of the CART business model will have more negatives than any popular win could...
Why is the IRL's continually changing plan now being called the "CART business model"? I think Tony George and his brain trust deserve the credit for the situation they have gotten themselves in to, if anything they are even worse in management because they had the chance to see what didn't work in CART (engine manufacturers calling the shots) and let it happen in the IRL anyway.
RaceGrrl
05-10-04, 05:15 PM
AFAIK, nobody but Brick is buying into the idea that the IRL uses CART's "business model." It's not the same thing because IMS is privately held.
This may look familiar to a few of you. If a Gomer called "NMRacer"
on Crackforum can figure it out......
"On a personal note, I've noticed you post on several boards, especially on pro, CCWS boards. I must admit, your one of the best fishermen I've ever seen."
AFAIK, nobody but Brick is buying into the idea that the IRL uses CART's "business model." It's not the same thing because IMS is privately held.
Brickman is wrong on two points. Well, he's wrong on a lot of points, but these are the two I'll talk about here. :)
First, he is confusing CART's business model from the business model of the money grubbing jackels who stabbed CART and all of its fans in the back. They are the ones who became addicted to the manufacturer money. Certainly CART became a victim of that because they were dependent on the teams and their real business model (no less flawed) of big sanction fees and a dream TV contract fell throught without manufacturer sponserships to prop it up.
But where his argument is really seriously at odds with reality is claiming that the IRL was turning anything anything around prior to turning to manufacturers for sponsorship money. Ratings, attendance, car counts and sponsorship were all well into a steady downard spiral before Toyota took their money and provided life support for the sorry mess Tony calls a series.
The IRL is not "New CART" as some have said. It is everything that was bad about CART with none of the things that made it so great.
Brickman is wrong on two points. Well, he's wrong on a lot of points, but these are the two I'll talk about here. :) ~snip
I think you guys are being too hard on ol' Bricky Wicky, and here's why. Just yesterday i determined that we could save a fortune by selling our encyclopedia set on Ebay.
Why? Cause if we ever need an answer to a complex question we'll just post it here, cause Bricky knows everything.
:gomer: :laugh:
This may look familiar to a few of you. If a Gomer called "NMRacer"
on Crackforum can figure it out......
"On a personal note, I've noticed you post on several boards, especially on pro, CCWS boards. I must admit, your one of the best fishermen I've ever seen."
Brickman is only allowed to post here so his comments can be debunked by CART's most knowledgeable fans.
:p
RaceGrrl
05-10-04, 05:42 PM
They call it "fishing." We call it "lemming hunting."
nissan gtp
05-10-04, 05:51 PM
you guys are killing me :laugh:
I thought nothing was interesting about the five hunert anymore, but this thread is the funniest stuff I've seen in a long time.
The cindy500 will make a fine Nascar race.
Spicoli
05-10-04, 05:56 PM
Please don;t banish Brickman. I am banned from most every public forum but here, and I need some challenging....mmm...."debate".
Thanks in advance. :gomer:
Brickman is wrong on two points. Well, he's wrong on a lot of points, but these are the two I'll talk about here. :)
First, he is confusing CART's business model from the business model of the money grubbing jackels who stabbed CART and all of its fans in the back. They are the ones who became addicted to the manufacturer money. Certainly CART became a victim of that because they were dependent on the teams and their real business model (no less flawed) of big sanction fees and a dream TV contract fell throught without manufacturer sponserships to prop it up.
But where his argument is really seriously at odds with reality is claiming that the IRL was turning anything anything around prior to turning to manufacturers for sponsorship money. Ratings, attendance, car counts and sponsorship were all well into a steady downard spiral before Toyota took their money and provided life support for the sorry mess Tony calls a series.
The IRL is not "New CART" as some have said. It is everything that was bad about CART with none of the things that made it so great.
I think he is confusing CART business model with the manufacturers (Toyota & Honda) business model. Which is propping up teams and giving them money, engines, support. Not really sure who came up with the idea first. Of course if they leave they will leave the IRL like a wasteland just like they did CART. I think he is wrong though, it won't be spec Fords in the IRL's future, but spec Chevies..
Railbird
05-10-04, 09:51 PM
Here's the bitch of giving some folks a chance
DaveL starts a thread with an interesting take backed up by some press from the era, then a "debate fan" derails it with irrelevant nonsense.
Then the playground feels the need to each attack the "debate fan" rather than address the original topic.
result?
"debate fan" wins
Mike Kellner
05-10-04, 09:55 PM
What did he win? We trashed the race he is propagandizing for about 100 posts worth. Him too.
mk
Imagine there's no Indy, it's easy if you try...
racer2c
05-10-04, 10:00 PM
Brickman is wrong on two points. Well, he's wrong on a lot of points, but these are the two I'll talk about here. :)
First, he is confusing CART's business model from the business model of the money grubbing jackels who stabbed CART and all of its fans in the back. They are the ones who became addicted to the manufacturer money. Certainly CART became a victim of that because they were dependent on the teams and their real business model (no less flawed) of big sanction fees and a dream TV contract fell throught without manufacturer sponserships to prop it up.
But where his argument is really seriously at odds with reality is claiming that the IRL was turning anything anything around prior to turning to manufacturers for sponsorship money. Ratings, attendance, car counts and sponsorship were all well into a steady downard spiral before Toyota took their money and provided life support for the sorry mess Tony calls a series.
The IRL is not "New CART" as some have said. It is everything that was bad about CART with none of the things that made it so great.
Excellent post. Again your summary is spot on and well written. A+ :thumbup:
racer2c
05-10-04, 10:11 PM
I think he is confusing CART business model with the manufacturers (Toyota & Honda) business model. Which is propping up teams and giving them money, engines, support. Not really sure who came up with the idea first. Of course if they leave they will leave the IRL like a wasteland just like they did CART. I think he is wrong though, it won't be spec Fords in the IRL's future, but spec Chevies..
Both series running badged Cosworths? Hmm.
I've figured out how Champ Car can introduce multi manufacturer participation with out falling back into the T&H hell that comes with the almighty yen.
Engine lotto. Each team makes a blind pick. Think about. It would be really cool.
nissan gtp
05-10-04, 10:12 PM
Please don;t banish Brickman. I am banned from most every public forum but here, and I need some challenging....mmm...."debate".
Thanks in advance. :gomer:
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
Here's the bitch of giving some folks a chance
DaveL starts a thread with an interesting take backed up by some press from the era, then a "debate fan" derails it with irrelevant nonsense.
Then the playground feels the need to each attack the "debate fan" rather than address the original topic.
result?
"debate fan" wins
OK 'bird, I haven't participated up till now but I'll throw in a sort of "on topic" to the original post by Dave. My friend who lives in Martinsville, sister used to run a concession at Georgetown and McCray for years. After 96, business starting dropping. By 2000 she was only making money on raceday and losing it on the other weekends. As they were making bids to get the spot for 2003, she asked to only rent the space for race weekend only as she was at best breaking even over the course of the month. The speedway, who has the rights to who can and can't run concessions there said no way, either put it up for the month or don't put it up at all. To top it off they raised the rates as well. She still shows up for the BY400, but she's making more money setting up at any Indiana local county fair during May than she would sitting on Georgetown these days. Last year, I noticed her spot was taken by some guy selling multi-colored boa's. :rolleyes:
Railbird
05-10-04, 10:24 PM
What did he win?
He made it more about himself than anything else, thus diverting the topic.
not that it's a tactic I haven't used over the years
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.5 Copyright © 2024 vBulletin Solutions Inc. All rights reserved.