Have yoter and Honder ever realized they're getting a raw deal?

[pinniped]

So they leave CART to the IRL, after being pursued by Tony the clown. Now they race in a series which is bending over for Chevy, allows them to substitute engines mid-season...and why? Because the gomers want to see an "Murrican" name on the winning car...Has anyone from Toyota or Honda ever realized or observed that this was contrary to their own rules? If Chevy dominates again this year (with their British Cosworth), will Toyota and Honda still want to be there? If one leaves, the other will likely bail too...I think OWRS should romance them back...

[Insomniac]

So they leave CART to the IRL, after being pursued by Tony the clown. Now they race in a series which is bending over for Chevy, allows them to substitute engines mid-season...and why? Because the gomers want to see an "Murrican" name on the winning car...Has anyone from Toyota or Honda ever realized or observed that this was contrary to their own rules? If Chevy dominates again this year (with their British Cosworth), will Toyota and Honda still want to be there? If one leaves, the other will likely bail too...I think OWRS should romance them back...

They don't care. NASCAR is their final destination.

[Racing Truth]

They don't care. NASCAR is their final destination.

Yep.

[Brickman]

So they leave CART to the IRL, after being pursued by Tony the clown. Now they race in a series which is bending over for Chevy, allows them to substitute engines mid-season...and why? Because the gomers want to see an "Murrican" name on the winning car...Has anyone from Toyota or Honda ever realized or observed that this was contrary to their own rules? If Chevy dominates again this year (with their British Cosworth), will Toyota and Honda still want to be there? If one leaves, the other will likely bail too...I think OWRS should romance them back...

Honda and Toyota should have howled about the "do over" midseason. I didn't like it and rooted against it and any car with the fraudulent bow tie. After the season it would be a good business move to keep three manufacturers competitive.

I see Honda is on the pole at Homestead.

[Lizzerd]

My wild speculation is that as soon as one leaves, (Toyota?) so will the other. I too hope that Champcar can woo them both back, but to me it seems unlikely for a couple years or until Champcar comes up with the next formula. As competetive as they are against each other, I think they will both remain in the same OW series, no matter which one it is.

[RTKar]

My wild speculation is that as soon as one leaves, (Toyota?) so will the other. I too hope that Champcar can woo them both back, but to me it seems unlikely for a couple years or until Champcar comes up with the next formula. As competetive as they are against each other, I think they will both remain in the same OW series, no matter which one it is.

Agreed, first OWRS has to have a stable cost effective long term spec in place and the series has to prove it can draw fans both at the track and on tv; that the business model is working. It wouldn't surprise me if some very informal talks are already taking place.

[JT265]

Lee White DID ask Pook if he could keep the man. trophy when Da Matta won till 2005, FWIW.

[Insomniac]

My wild speculation is that as soon as one leaves, (Toyota?) so will the other. I too hope that Champcar can woo them both back, but to me it seems unlikely for a couple years or until Champcar comes up with the next formula. As competetive as they are against each other, I think they will both remain in the same OW series, no matter which one it is.

Toyota started Craftsman Trucks this year, so that probably puts them on course for NASCAR in 2006. That will get them a lot more eyes than ChampCar and the IRL combined. And there is a lot of brand loyalty for NASCAR fans. The question is, will they want to stick around in OW too? Remember, around 2006, the smoking ban goes into effect in the EU and US, so F1 might be pulling out of a lot of traditional locations in EU. ChampCar in 2006 or 2007 could be better positioned to take over some of those races.

Honda hasn't gotten there foot in the door at NASCAR yet. Do they need to make a truck first? But, history has shown that Honda and Toyota follow each other.

In the end, it's all about selling cars.

[Insomniac]

Honda and Toyota should have howled about the "do over" midseason. I didn't like it and rooted against it and any car with the fraudulent bow tie. After the season it would be a good business move to keep three manufacturers competitive.

I'm not surprised they didn't. They had nowhere else to go. I think they also knew that while it was a huge leap for Chevy, the new engine wasn't going to leap frog their engines.

What are the Chevy engines this year? Still using the Cosworth? Will the 3.0 be a Cosworth?

[Brickman]

I'm not surprised they didn't. They had nowhere else to go. I think they also knew that while it was a huge leap for Chevy, the new engine wasn't going to leap frog their engines.

What are the Chevy engines this year? Still using the Cosworth? Will the 3.0 be a Cosworth?

Actually I think they did leapfrog. But the number of talented shoes wasn't there for Chevy. It's why Hornish won.... Hornish came in 2, 1, 2, 1, 1, 17 (blown) after the change to Cosworth. Quality driver + quality engine = wins. I didn't root for him once.

[Insomniac]

Actually I think they did leapfrog. But the number of talented shoes wasn't there for Chevy. It's why Hornish won.... Hornish came in 2, 1, 2, 1, 1, 17 (blown) after the change to Cosworth. Quality driver + quality engine = wins. I didn't root for him once.

I'd say all the engines are pretty good now. I think Panther's setup was always better. They were getting the most out of that Chevy to start, and once they got the power, everything else was in place.

[stroker]

Honda's not in much of a position to complain--my understanding was that they simply changed the valve covers on the "MG" engine (which I assume is a Judd or something). At least Toader designed their own engine.

[pinniped]

Not trying to be argumentative...but the MG engine was supposedly designed for CART not IRL...don't know if one was actually ever built. I do believe however that the Honder IRL engine was an Ilmor re-badge at least initially...I have to admit having willfully ignored such things ever since it was determined that champ cars would be using the Ford turbos as spec...The Yoter engine was a TuRD project right out of my orange county ca backyard...

[Insomniac]

Honda jumped in with Ilmor on the IRL engine since they got into the ball game much later. Their plan was to make it all in-house. Who knows what they're doing now.

[Winston Wolfe]

They don't care. NASCAR is their final destination.

Guys, I keep seeing this posted in various places and dont see Honda joining the Nascar thing for a variety of reasons. First and foremost is the lack of a truck and an 8cyl engine. Yeah, I know, they have an SUT coming out next spring based on the Odyssey \ Pilot \ MDX platform that will have a 6-cyl engine, but really, it is not a truck in the sense of the word (body on ladder \ frame construction, front engine \ rear drive-4WD layout, seperate bed configurations, etc).
Honda does not have the unrestricted budget of a Toyota, and TRD has been in the Goody's Dash series for years, learning how to go around in a tin-top, setting up team \ driver \ owner relationships, and getting to know how the NASCAR ladder series works. Honda is many years behind them, and does not have the personnel to get that going too quickly.
As someone who has a pretty good line on some of the stuff going on at Honda from a marketing and p.r standpoint, any ventures into NASCAR in the near or not so near future would come as a huge surprise.
Now, Toyota on the other hand.... I think their venture into NASCAR with a V8 powered Camry Solara Coupe is just a couple of years away. Can you just see it now???? All of the good ol NASCAR boys will be going nuts when that happens.... Come to think of it, will FORD, GM, and CHRYSLER even be building cars at that point, other than for rental fleets and so that they can continue to compete in NASCAR ?
I just cant \ dont see Honda joining in the fray.... Sorry :)

[Insomniac]

Guys, I keep seeing this posted in various places and dont see Honda joining the Nascar thing for a variety of reasons. First and foremost is the lack of a truck and an 8cyl engine. Yeah, I know, they have an SUT coming out next spring based on the Odyssey \ Pilot \ MDX platform that will have a 6-cyl engine, but really, it is not a truck in the sense of the word (body on ladder \ frame construction, front engine \ rear drive-4WD layout, seperate bed configurations, etc).

I'm not sure where you get this from, but they just need a truck platform manufactured in the US. All those other requirements are pointless. NCT has rules about the trucks and the manufacturers aren't sticking production engines in there.


Honda does not have the unrestricted budget of a Toyota, and TRD has been in the Goody's Dash series for years, learning how to go around in a tin-top, setting up team \ driver \ owner relationships, and getting to know how the NASCAR ladder series works. Honda is many years behind them, and does not have the personnel to get that going too quickly.

Honda has more than enough money to do a NASCAR program plus the experience in the past. They have proven they can go to new places and compete.


As someone who has a pretty good line on some of the stuff going on at Honda from a marketing and p.r standpoint, any ventures into NASCAR in the near or not so near future would come as a huge surprise.

And when did you find out that they were going to the IRL?


Now, Toyota on the other hand.... I think their venture into NASCAR with a V8 powered Camry Solara Coupe is just a couple of years away. Can you just see it now???? All of the good ol NASCAR boys will be going nuts when that happens.... Come to think of it, will FORD, GM, and CHRYSLER even be building cars at that point, other than for rental fleets and so that they can continue to compete in NASCAR ?
I just cant \ dont see Honda joining in the fray.... Sorry :)

Again, Toyota does not need a V8 engine in the Camry. You just need to look at Ford, Chevy and Dodge. None of them have V8's in their cars. It just needs to be US built. Ford, Chevy and Dodge will not leave NASCAR anytime soon. With their extremely tight rules (and constant adjustments to keep it even) they have nothing to worry about. Plus, it's the best racing series for marketing right now, hands down.

Given all that, why wouldn't Honda want to go there?

[KLang]

Given all that, why wouldn't Honda want to go there?

Especially if Toyota is there. Honda wants to compete with Toyota.

[Redwing]

Go to the Winston-Salem Jounal website and do a search on Toyota. There is a link that states that Roush and Hendrick says that both Toyota and Honda are coming to NASCAR.

[Andrew Longman]

FWIW, my contacts within Honda say they now view VW as their chief rival in that the psychographic/demographic profile for the VW buyer is much closer to the Honda buyer than the Toyota buyer. This explains the more eurostyling of Hondas and Acuras in the last few years.

But the "racing spirit" is a conspicuous part of the Honda way and so they will always race. And racing Toyota has always been in their mix. But they went to F1 twice on their own. They came to CART on their own. Toyota followed them.

I'm not saying they are not going to NASCAR, just that their are reasons they might not.

But, yes Toyota is going there. They are there

[RTKar]

FWIW, my contacts within Honda say they now view VW as their chief rival in that the psychographic/demographic profile for the VW buyer is much closer to the Honda buyer than the Toyota buyer. This explains the more eurostyling of Hondas and Acuras in the last few years.

But the "racing spirit" is a conspicuous part of the Honda way and so they will always race. And racing Toyota has always been in their mix. But they went to F1 twice on their own. They came to CART on their own. Toyota followed them.

I'm not saying they are not going to NASCAR, just that their are reasons they might not.

But, yes Toyota is going there. They are there

Time for OWRS to start sweet talking VW into entering the series....others may follow