Rootes superchargers and tuned mufflers

[ChrisB]

What kind of engine should the next Champcar have? A stock-based I4? Or a variant of the IRL 3.0L V8? Maybe something in-between like a V6?

Whatever the cylinder count.. how about using a belt-driven rootes supercharger with it to get that 750hp or whatever?

Link 1 (http://www.mmrusa.com/jacksonracing.htm)

Link 2 (http://www.jacksonracing.com/Shop/ViewProducts.aspx?PlateIndexID=39968)

I realize the conventional thinking has been to use an exhaust-driven turbo, but rootes superchargers are preferred over turbos in drag racing because of their better low-end torque for acceleration... perfect for CWS which will essentially be a road-racing series with a need for lotsa acceleration outta corners (unlike oval racing). These units on top of a V6 or V8 would probably be about the same size as the current turbo plenum.

Also... I'll guess that superchargers probably are historically the preference of shade-tree hot-rodders over the decades (to make a connection to the kids now called "Tuners") because they're simply easier to install than turbocharger systems (link) (http://www.howstuffworks.com/question122.htm)

And for you marketing folks, saying that Champcars are "supercharged" still sounds just as cool as saying they're "turbocharged".


I also realize the concern that eliminating the turbo will increase loudness, because the turbo acted as a muffler. No problem... For noise suppression with a supercharger, just use a high-flow exhaust muffler which would only take away very minimal power. From what I've read, apparently mufflers can be tuned to make various types of exhaust sounds... so maybe they could it get it close to a turbo type sound.

[Railbird]

Can't argue with any of your tech points Chris, hell I'm old enough to remember the Walcott eight ball and Parnelli's Rev 500 rootes blown offies, but I do have some concerns with a silencer being employed.

I wouldn't want to see a leader black flagged because his muffler fell off.

[WickerBill]

With a muffler, there's also the potential benefit of having the series hand them out and using them to control speeds on ovals by sapping power.

[racer2c]

and Mario's muffler commercials would actually be relevant!

[JT265]

Got my vote. I still think an I-4 is the way to go, captures almost every manufacturer on the planet, and either way (turbo or blown, which I prefer :D ), there is room for the series to control HP somewhat.

And Chris, you're right. You can tune a muffler to sweeten an exhaust note.

HEY!!!! Somebody wanna forward that gem of wisdom to ToeKnee? ;)

[stroker]

Stock block 2 liter (or close to it) inline 4 cyl turbos are the way to go. It gives the mfg a chance to "win on Sunday, sell on Monday".

:)

[oddlycalm]

The only real downside I can think of with vane blowers is the higher level of mechanical complexity. More moving parts and a belt is probably going to result in incrementally lesser reliability, but not likely enough to matter. There are so many series that have dealt with the silencer issue successfully that I doubt that would be much an issue. This type of package would be substancially easier to drive well w/o traction control than the current turbo engines, which can be seen as a positive or a negative depending on one's outlook.

Regardless of who owns the show, Champcar racing will need to decide what it is going to be first, then adopt a platform that suits. If it's going to be 100% road and street racing, then lighter weight, shorter wheelbases and higher power should be on the table.

oc

[Hard Driver]

I'd vote for chopping off two cylinders and going with a turbo 2.0L V-6. Then the boost can be raised again. Then if you do have ovals, you can drop the boost. This also makes the cars lighter with the same HP, so it might slightly help street courses. Lighter cars could look/be a bit more nimbler.

However, this requires Ford to design a new engine. With the current longevity requirements and added boost, this would require significant development costs. Because 6/8ths of the current engine gives this 2.0 liter number, it might be done more easily to chop off two cylinders, rather than design a new engine. But I don't think any significant engine change is in the cards right now.

[Andrew Longman]

Your usual insightful technical post, Chris.

At this point though, what is driving the need for an engine change anytime soon?

The current arrangement with Ford keeps costs and hp in line and unless manufacturers are going to bring a boatload of money, who could afford to do engine shopping or to start a tech war? I think they can/should stick with the current deal for quite a while unless someone is bringing big bucks (and keeping an eye on the trouble that brings)

BUT if Champcars were to change, I've yet to hear a v6 that sounded like a scary race engine, no matter the HP. Maybe that's just my experience. An I4 would appeal to some manufactuers from a tech and marketing perspective, I think, but I've yet to hear a manufacturer say that.

[racer2c]

The old adage, "win on Sunday, Sell on Monday" only applies to one genre of vehicle today. Trucks. Studies have revealed truck owners to be the most brand loyal auto consumers on the planet. Take NASCAR (please) for instance, I am seeing an onslaught of Craftsman Truck Series / auto manufacturer marketing. Their sedan series has really become a 'driver personality' series. GM Monte Carlos and Dodge Intrepid are not flying out of showrooms. The Rams, Silverados and Tundras sure are though.

My point to this? Champ Car needs to define to themselves, what their manufacture involvement is. Are they about helping manufactures sell on Monday? Then clear tie ins should be established. For example, take Chris's supercharger idea. Off the top of my head there are currently two auto manufactures in the US who put superchargers on their vehicles. Nissan and Pontiac. They enter Champ Car with supercharged V8's. Champ Car contractually enters into a marketing partnership with them. A guaranteed amount of TV commercials showing off the new supercharged V6 Pontiac Grand Prix explaining that the technology is proven on the track with the supercharged V8.

CART, seemed to me rarely to be able to 'force' the marketing out of their sponsors. Maybe a downside in the franchise program where it's up to the teams to get their own sponsors and market on their own agenda. But even at a series level...how many Fed Ex CART commercials did you ever see and of those, how many did you ever see outside of a race broadcast.

Or, as Andrew mentioned, they continue on with one engine. One benefit being that it helps bring the 'real' drivers to the front, thus making 'stars'. In a philosophical way. :confused:

I've heard some absolutely horrid sounding passenger car V6's. But now that I think about it, they've been push rod engines such as the Camaro and Mustangs and some pickup trucks. Duel exhaust on a push rod V6 sounds like a fart. But, I have a SOHC 3.0 V6 in my Eclipse that has a very nice throaty, unoffensive sound. I can imagine that a V6 pure race engine with DOHC and a supercharger would sound great. I just don't think they need to do it. It just takes the right marketing angle. *end of babble* :)

[Ankf00]

V6's are very unbalanced I think, they wouldn't work as a race engine, Racewriter knows way more about that though...

superchargers I am opposed to on geek principle, why sap perfectly good power off the crank to power that thing? turbos just use exhaust waste, better thermal efficiency :D

[racer2c]

V6's are very unbalanced I think, they wouldn't work as a race engine, Racewriter knows way more about that though...

superchargers I am opposed to on geek principle, why sap perfectly good power off the crank to power that thing? turbos just use exhaust waste, better thermal efficiency :D

Yester-year, the issue of balance was brought up often in regards to i4s and V6's in passnger cars. Today, with advanced counter balancing measures it's a non issue. They can build anything and make it race. There have been V6's in most of todays top series, F1, Indy Car, Busch and peppered throughout racings history.

Now then, if they would just add a 'supercharger' on/off button ala Mad Max to kick in the 'straigh-away power'! :gomer: :D

[Andrew Longman]

Monte Carlos may not be flying out of the showroom today because Jr won yesterday, but Silverados might be.

And the buyers are putting "8" stickers in the rear windows as soon as they buy them. Not going to put an 8 on a F150 are you?

Whatever the approach to working with manufacturers, I think its a good point that Champcars should have clear and comprehensive idea how they see manufacturers marketing/co marketing with them. That's one thing (among many) Nascar has done well. They took the postion that the drivers were the stars and worked with Ford, Chevy, Goodyear, even CocaCola, Pepsi, UPS, all their sponsors to create a consistent theme in all the marketing that hightlights the drivers.

Now thats a tidy formula that Champcars could copy. Or they could make the cars the stars. ChrisB has long championed a new engine/chassis formula purpose built for road and street racing to produce the best entertainment, driver challenge and racing. There is something to that. Make the cars VERY impressive, THEN market the drivers that drive them as impressive.

[pchall]

I'd vote for chopping off two cylinders and going with a turbo 2.0L V-6. Then the boost can be raised again. Then if you do have ovals, you can drop the boost.

This was actually proposed for CART in the early 90s in the name of cost control. Went nowhere as it didn't meet the egos and desires of team owners and manufacturers.