View Full Version : My Take
Since nobody asked, here's my take on the whole CART/OWRS/IMS Deal:
I think OWRS will prevail in court, but I'm not that sure. The IRL has been out to kill CART the last 3 or 4 years (mostly after they realized that they really did need CART's sponsors, teams and venues) TG smells blood in the water, and actually beleives his own press releases about unity. That is a very scary mix.
I mean, unless you really have, why would you put out a 6 part series of press releases describing how you haven't abandoned your principles? TG actually thinks people will buy that. A few will hail it, but the rest will see it as what it is. The same goes for this, "once we get everyone back on the same page, the fans will return" stuff.
He doesn't realize that if he does get CART, pretty much the entire fanbase will be alienated. When you look at the damage that has been done to the sport since 1995, I just can't see any way that the ends justified the means. The end is looking like the beginning with a new dictator, but 1/3 the fans, and 2/3rd the cars. The scary part is, if you asked him, "Looking at where you where you stood in 1995, was it all worth it?" TG would give a resounding "YES!"
But, what can you do? Here's my ideal series:
1. A variety of challenges presented to the drivers. Road races, Street races, short ovals, superspeedways. A race like Texas is fun. 10 races like
Texas is not. The same can be said for Long Beach.
2. Cars that challenge the drivers. Barn door wings suck. So does traction control. Give the cars enough power that they require a driver to work to keep it under him. Also give him enough grip so that he can race if he dares, but not so much that even Shiggy can do it.
3. Let the teams outdo each other. Combine the old IRL engine rules with the old CART chassis rules. (Do not confuse the specs with the rules.) Anyone should be able to buy an engine and play with it to their heart's content. Teams should be able to do the same with their chassis (or if they have enough money, build their own). I loved the controversy over Penske's Shark Fin. To this day, nobody knows what (if anything) it did, but it sure created a buzz through the sport. That rules.
In the glory years, CART did pretty much all of the above. Tinkering with the engines was about the only thing that didn't happen. It could have, but it didn't.
If Tony George was honestly committed to producing the above, I'd be all for it. But, from what I can tell, he's committed to being the official bitch of NASCAR.
If Paul Gentiolozzi was honestly committed to producing the above, I'd be all for it. But, from what I can tell, he's committed to stroke his ego and get rich quick.
If my Uncle Harry was committed to producing the above, I'd be all for it. But, from what I can tell, he's still dead.
I say let Tony George fund it, and name somebody competent to run it. I would model the relationship to be similar to the AMA/ClearChannel Supercross relationship. AMA acts as the sanctioning body, and ClearChannel produces and promotes all the races. CC has the contracts with the venues, the series sponsors, the track builders, TV, etc. AMA writes the rules, enforces the rules, and cashes the check. (CC is working on a similar deal with IHRA drag racing.)
From what I can see, next year will suck all around. 2003 went remarkably well for CART, but "not nearly as horrible as I thought it would be" isn't much of an accomplishment. 2003 for the IRL was a dismal failure. They got the manufacturers, but attendance and ratings nosedived, they seriously injured 1/3 of the starting field, killed one driver, nearly killed another, and would have gotten fans too - if they actually had any in the seats, then turned around and praised it all as growth.
From my seat, 2004 looks to be much of the same. It doesn't have to be, but it will.
Brickman
01-26-04, 02:37 PM
I think the court issues are too iffy. Objections from promoters venues seem to becoming from both sides of the aisle. It could just get to a bidding war plain and simple.
George's vision de jour has been because he didn't have a plan for conquest of open wheel, he embraced and abandoned all he could. The one constant is that he wants control.
I don't agree with number 3, complicates things.
The Indy Racing League has too many things wrong with it and this isn't the right forum to point out all their many flaws.
Just like a car that has been wrecked and rebuilt, it doesn't drive the same, doesn't feel the same, it's soul has been lost, so it may be for Champ Cars.
Unification is out. There are more bad feelings today than there ever where, icluding the first year of the IRL. The events of the past week prove there is no chance of that. The only thing the IRL wants and has wanted is CART's death. Is TG stupid enough to think that if he buys CART that we (the fans) will automatically follow? Had I wanted to follow the IRL I certainly could have and would have by now. I predict if the IRL bid is accepted it will stain that series more than 25/8 ever did. If its going to die, then TG should just get out of the way and welcome the survivors rather than hold a gun to our heads. He thinks we have no choice. He'll find out that we do.
racer2c
01-26-04, 03:59 PM
I've always applauded the leased, sealed engines. I don't want 'tinkering' by third party shops and enthusiastic 'mechanics' making hand grenades out of my favorite racers engine. You also know which one is a dog by lap ten.
Keep em leased and make the rules limit the upgrades to twice a season.
Maybe Tony is banking on the fact that every race fan in the world will tune in to see his crapwagons lumber around a road course. It should prove to be quite comical. I hear Panoz has offered to have road race ready crapwagons for this year if the IRL wins the assets. Thanks Don. I like you even less now...
originally posted by Brickman
Just like a car that has been wrecked and rebuilt, it doesn't drive the same, doesn't feel the same, it's soul has been lost, so it may be for Champ Cars.
I was feeling that at the end of the 01 season and especially the beginning of the '02. Yes, the Mexico races were an unmitigated success and a great addition as well as Montreal, but the inclusion of 2 rather pathetic street circuits at Denver and Miami made me wonder what they were thinking. That along with the Euro swing got me wondering what exactly was the direction of Cart if any. Even if this whole thing pans out in OWRS's favor, it will never be what once was and only time will tell if the new direction of OW racing, via OWRS will be the correct one.
Unification is out. There are more bad feelings today than there ever where, icluding the first year of the IRL. The events of the past week prove there is no chance of that. The only thing the IRL wants and has wanted is CART's death. Is TG stupid enough to think that if he buys CART that we (the fans) will automatically follow? Had I wanted to follow the IRL I certainly could have and would have by now. I predict if the IRL bid is accepted it will stain that series more than 25/8 ever did. If its going to die, then TG should just get out of the way and welcome the survivors rather than hold a gun to our heads. He thinks we have no choice. He'll find out that we do.
I agree with Steve wholeheartedly, TG can buy every nut and bolt, even the marbles on the tracks from last years race but he can't buy the fans. He certainly won't buy me. I also doubt that the engine Mfg's would want their engines tinkered with and "grenading" week after week. That's why there were leases in the first place; propriatary technology and a way to keep teams from playing with the engines and possibly having them blow which would be bad PR.
fourrunner
01-26-04, 09:20 PM
Long Beach has withdrawn their objection after OWRS answered certain questions Long Beach needed to assure the stockholders of Dover Motorsports. Not sure what the questions were but it is now understood that Long Beach would like to continue with their current contracted series, and OWRS. Evidently Bob Mikallian from the Long Beach Grand Prix issued a statement today, and said the objection was a procedural move, and their fears have been quelled.
Got this from the AR1 NEWS section... not the Rumors section!
This is great news!
jonovision_man
01-27-04, 08:45 AM
I agree with Steve wholeheartedly, TG can buy every nut and bolt, even the marbles on the tracks from last years race but he can't buy the fans. He certainly won't buy me.
So, hypothetically speaking, if he were to put a product on the track that you really liked, you wouldn't watch? You'd let your emotions toward TG get in the way of your own enjoyment of a sport you profess to love?
He can't buy me, but certainly he could woo me with a good product.
Of course, it remains to be seen what he would put on track, it could well and truly be crap, but if it's not I'm not willing to write it off just yet.
jono
So, hypothetically speaking, if he were to put a product on the track that you really liked, you wouldn't watch? You'd let your emotions toward TG get in the way of your own enjoyment of a sport you profess to love?
He can't buy me, but certainly he could woo me with a good product.
Of course, it remains to be seen what he would put on track, it could well and truly be crap, but if it's not I'm not willing to write it off just yet.
jono
His current on track product doesn't impress me. It's NASCAR with open wheels; contrived and manipulated, something I consider more or less a farce. Frankly I laugh that the irl has become everything that he and his minions railed against regarding CART circa the 90's. Considering the hows and whys over the last 9 years; tg, penske, ganassi, the lies, the kool aid......the irl and tg become something I want no part of. (FYI - I grew up on oval racing, going to the Mile and loved the 500). He's the classic bully, spoiled rich kid that wants it his way, but I'm not going to play his game. He may think he's won something but I think time will tell that he really hasn't.
Open wheel racing is something I do truly love, but it's going to be on my terms, at my discretion....There's more to me than just racing. If it doesn't exist to my liking , I'll move on.
racer2c
01-27-04, 08:25 PM
I would'nt spend a dime I found on the sidewalk on anything Tony and IRL let alone my hard earned money. I've been an F1 fan as long if not longer than a Champ Car fan and twenty years of going to CART races and five Indy 500's and buying CART merchandise, I couldn't imagine wearing or buying anything with an IRL logo on it or attend one of those 'races' (and I live only 45 miles from the Richmond race), I'll go F1 and leave it at that. Never, ever will he get me. Never.
RARules
01-27-04, 08:46 PM
So, hypothetically speaking, if he were to put a product on the track that you really liked, you wouldn't watch? You'd let your emotions toward TG get in the way of your own enjoyment of a sport you profess to love?
He can't buy me, but certainly he could woo me with a good product.
Of course, it remains to be seen what he would put on track, it could well and truly be crap, but if it's not I'm not willing to write it off just yet.
jono
I think Tony's track record speaks for itself (pun not really intended, but I'll still take credit for it. ;) ). I would consider even entertaining his circus as a replacement for my love of Champ Cars to be a total waste of time. Just hearing Bob Jenkins' voice on the telecasts almost makes me nauseous. Actually listening to his hype about the IRL (written by Nation???) pushes me over the edge. It's either turn it off or find the toilet...quick!
FTG has had his chance to win fans with his "product". He lost. CART has had its chance to win with its business model (incorporation) and (mis)management. It lost. Let Champ Car racing live under the auspices of OWRS. That's its best chance at this time.
jonovision_man
01-27-04, 09:23 PM
I think Tony's track record speaks for itself (pun not really intended, but I'll still take credit for it. ;) ). I would consider even entertaining his circus as a replacement for my love of Champ Cars to be a total waste of time. Just hearing Bob Jenkins' voice on the telecasts almost makes me nauseous. Actually listening to his hype about the IRL (written by Nation???) pushes me over the edge. It's either turn it off or find the toilet...quick!
FTG has had his chance to win fans with his "product". He lost. CART has had its chance to win with its business model (incorporation) and (mis)management. It lost. Let Champ Car racing live under the auspices of OWRS. That's its best chance at this time.
I was speaking hypothetically... *if* IRL became a product worth watching. I'm not confident that will come to pass, but if it ever did I would watch, regardless of who is running it.
jono
racer2c
01-27-04, 09:29 PM
I was speaking hypothetically... *if* IRL became a product worth watching. I'm not confident that will come to pass, but if it ever did I would watch, regardless of who is running it.
jono
How would you know if you aren't watching? F'm. I'll never look back.
jonovision_man
01-27-04, 09:36 PM
How would you know if you aren't watching? F'm. I'll never look back.
I'll poke in from time to time... :)
jono
Railbird
01-27-04, 09:39 PM
jono
I've attended several IRL events, going to races is what I do. They've always been thrill shows without a lot of meaningful content imo. Tightly managed drone fests capped off by an aero crapshoot in the last "segment". Good sideshow material on a free weekend.
The product will never improve in terms of roadracing mainly because the spec is designed to do one thing, circulate the old speedplant at 16th and Georgetown on Memorial Day weekend. It can be tweaked to endanger the bare aluminum sorounding the cookie cutters fairly easily but fails miserably on the short tracks. The demands presented by a road or street course will lay bare the shortcomings in a dramatic fashion imho.
and they won't change the spec because "it's all about Indy" to them.
You're best bet is to cross your fingers and hope Judge Otte puts justice before political asperations.
Lizzerd
01-27-04, 09:42 PM
At the risk of being called a lemming or fence sitter, I admit to only missing three Indy 500's since 1973. '77, broke college student. '86, rain delayed for a week. Got married on race day (should have gone to the race). '96, was in Michigan for the US 500. I keep my tickets (used to be eight, now two) because I've always held hope that CART will return as CART, or OWRS now. That is where my support of Earl and TG end. I have not purchased anything from the giftshop other than limited F1 stuff since 1995. If TG and his band of idiots prevail tomorrow, God forbid, this will be the last year I go to the Memorial Day fiasco. Okay, I go to USGP too, but that's different.
Oh, and since you brought up Bob Jenkins, RARules, here's a little story about that moron. A buddy of mine's former boss gave him tickets to opening day for the Indianapolis Indians (AAA), in '96. Box seats, row five or thereabouts. Jenkins was sitting a few rows back in aisle seats with his wife. I got up to get a beer or pee or something, and stopped by and asked him "what race will you be doing in May, Bob?" His reply, "is there another race in May?"
racer2c
01-27-04, 09:49 PM
Oh, and since you brought up Bob Jenkins, RARules, here's a little story about that moron. A buddy of mine's former boss gave him tickets to opening day for the Indianapolis Indians (AAA), in '96. Box seats, row five or thereabouts. Jenkins was sitting a few rows back in aisle seats with his wife. I got up to get a beer or pee or something, and stopped by and asked him "what race will you be doing in May, Bob?" His reply, "is there another race in May?"
He was probably being serious. ;)
Railbird
01-27-04, 09:51 PM
JoeBob
I really like your take but chassis and engine freedom comes at a mighty high price. The last few year's we've been letting the ALMS somewhat satisfy the desire for diversity in equipment.
It's gotten so bad in modern day racing that I was almost giddy over the FW26 tusk nose and as unworkable as the Renault wide angle V seemed to be I was sorry to see it shelved.
racer2c
01-27-04, 10:03 PM
jono
I've attended several IRL events, going to races is what I do.
And I think that's cool. We used to have a blast at the Saturday night modified and stockers at Old Dominion Speedway that I grew up next to and the Friday night drag races had me swapping V8's for more power when I was into the straight line thang. I enjoy much of the racing on TV besides NASCAR. The IRL to me...well, let's just say I despise it. Nine years is too long to hate soemthing and then revert. Hell, I've gotten over ex-lovers in nine hours, let alone nine years.
The difference between you and the lemming followers of Tony, is that you understand what the IRL is all about. Cheers!
jonovision_man
01-27-04, 10:23 PM
and they won't change the spec because "it's all about Indy" to them.
But if they want to race at LB or Toronto, Road America, etc... at some point they will have to show up with a chassis that does street/road courses justice. Is any of their package really ready for dodging around tight turns at a street circuit?
I guess my optimism lies there, as well as in the sponsors/manufacturers putting pressure on TG to make this thing a real professional series.
If TG wins. Guess we'll know in a little under 24 hours...
jono
I suppose the engine view is kind of idealistic. It works well for NASCAR, but I can see how it can cause problems with "high tech engines." Remove the part about engines being for sale from the above. There should be some sort of way that anybody who has the cash can get a good engine, but I'm open to other ideas.
Railbird
01-27-04, 10:27 PM
The difference between you and the lemming followers of Tony, is that you understand what the IRL is all about.
It's kind of the sad part for me 2c. I wish I could get more enthused just because it's in my backyard. The fact of the matter is my son and I started talking about the good/bad of the deal on the way back from Chicagoland and continued with the topic through the Petit weekend.
In the end the racing just isn't that interesting with the only thing keeping you on the edge of your seat being the fear that someone is going to bust their ass.
Even if our boys at OWRS are successful tomorrow we are going to pump up our ALMS sched and scratch the majority of the IRL shows. Of course adding a race or two with a series that is also floundering and in a death match with a France spec deal is anything put calming.
The bitch of the whole damn thing is that every American buck is being poured into Nascar at this point in time.
racer2c
01-27-04, 11:06 PM
Like David Philip's wrote today, one side of me just wants it over with one way or another.
My biggest regrets in this whole shebang is never seeing a Champ Car run at Indy or RA or MO or Cleveland again. We very well may never see a Champ Car run again period.
I've had dozens of favorite drivers I pull for over the years. Heck, the past few years I pull for 'em all. But to me it all comes back to the car. A Champ Car. A thoroughbred, diverse, unique, incredible racing machine.
My old Suzuki and some posts way back by our boy l_g got me watching the two wheelers. Some of the purest, and most exciting racing on the planet. I love a pretty car, such as they have in the ALMS, but I'm not a Panoz fan and I've never gotten into the multi class racing.
Kiwifan
01-28-04, 03:31 AM
At the risk of getting slightly off topic
The bitch of the whole damn thing is that every American buck is being poured into Nascar at this point in time. it seems that their buck is spreading. SKY NZ has just released the "news" that we will get a whole year of Nextel Cup racing Live every weekend they are racing Stateside. They haven't been on our TV since ESPN lost the contract.
The funny thing is that in the Skyguide programming magazine they show a wreck!! A 30 car pile up, no wonder folks love it. :) For me, I just love Champ Cars and all they represent(ed.)
Rusty.
At the risk of getting slightly off topic it seems that their buck is spreading. SKY NZ has just released the "news" that we will get a whole year of Nextel Cup racing Live every weekend they are racing Stateside. They haven't been on our TV since ESPN lost the contract.
The funny thing is that in the Skyguide programming magazine they show a wreck!! A 30 car pile up, no wonder folks love it. :) For me, I just love Champ Cars and all they represent(ed.)
Rusty.
Sorry to hear that mate but I do try to watch them on the couple of road courses they run. It can be pretty entertaining.
The funny thing is that in the Skyguide programming magazine they show a wreck!! A 30 car pile up, no wonder folks love it. :) For me, I just love Champ Cars and all they represent(ed.)
Rusty.
NASCAR is promoted here through endless ads featuring wrecks on two major networks. The IRL gets that treatment from ABC as well.
That's why so many of us are so passionate about CART and want OWRS to succeed.
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