Miami and Fontana gone for 2004

[jonovision_man]

From autosport.com:

“We are not purchasing the assets of the Miami race,” said Paul Gentilozzi, one of the OWRS principals. “We love Miami, but we've made a business decision. And we've not purchased the contract for the Fontana race for 2004 either.”

[Chaos]

suprised about Miami...not surprised about Fontana. The radio this morning suggested that the Miami race lost $9 in two years - i'd like to know how an event with good attendance managed to lose that much.

[Ziggy]

An event with good attendance? Did you know anybody who went there? I did, and they where not even racefans. I guess there is a shopping mall right around the course (sic) and these folks where given tickets for just being in the area. They told me that on Saturday there was no one there. They where given race tickets as well.

Believe it or not!

Ziggy

PS - The 2003 event was the worst CART race in it's entire history.

[Electrocuted]

Ziggy is correct,,, but the more PC / informative way to put it is,,, 12,000 tickets were sold for the weekend. I'm not sure how many of those were sponsor tickets or other types of "required" or "comp" tickets at discounted prices??

Heck, to be honest, the attendance at most of the U.S. races last year stunk real bad. I think Long Beach was the only track with over 40,000 on race day.

Long way to climb outa this deep hole, but I have faith in the 3 smart guys to grow the series over a few years.

[manic mechanic]

You guys keep ragging on Fontana as if it was badly attended!

Last year (2002) there was OVER 40k in the house, and this past year there were over 32,000 season ticket holders who either planned on attending, or sold their seats to someone who wanted to be there.

A big oval has a place in CART/OWRS...it adds to the diversity of the series. With Fontana and Vegas apparently "gone" (I have it on inside info that LVMS only talked to CART once, and a deal was never done) from the schedule, to me it will never be the same.

OK, I'm done ranting over losing my "home track". :cry:


manic

[nrc]

Pook had high hopes that Miami would eventually become Long Beach East. That wasn't going to happen overnight.

CART dumped a lot of cash into it hoping it would pay off in the long run. If the race is still saddled with all that debt and can't be separated, OWRS might prefer to just let it die.

[jcollins28]

Freakin sucks about Fontana. I know most people here could care less. For me it means one less race I will get to go to. Plus I still like high speed oval CART racing. I would love to see the return of the "Triple Crown."

[Ziggy]

They dont have enough fans for a "Single Crown". Here is the deal with the ovals (and I like ovals) You cant run a series of street/road course's when the chassie is designed to absorb a hit to a concrete wall at 230mph.Way to expensive. I would think that the cars they are running now are getting long in the tooth in reguards to stress cycles. Crashed or not... Its why the cars are huge. They have reached a fork in the road IMO. In order to lower cost, OWRS is going to have to decide if they are going to abandon the ovals or keep them. Milwaukee and Fontana are the last North American venues. IRL is running on both tracks, to even smaller crowds. Milwaukee MIGHT do better as its a couple of tanks of gas away from all the "Inaugral" Lemmings....but that will die out in a year.

Im not a fan of street racing. A couple was OK, but for the most part the street course's they run on now are a total joke in relation to racing. I might become a fan if they can come up with smaller bore formula. The cars need to be downsized if they are going to run on street course's, for racing sake.

That opens up another can of worms...

Ziggy

[jonovision_man]

Doesn't the issue with Fontana have more to do with track management, and the fact that CART has more or less been dumped for the IRL?

Not to mention the lawsuit over the 2003 cancellation, not sure where that ended up... that would be one potential liability that CART has which OWRS didn't pick up.

jono

[manic mechanic]

Originally posted by jonovision_man
Doesn't the issue with Fontana have more to do with track management, and the fact that CART has more or less been dumped for the IRL?

Not to mention the lawsuit over the 2003 cancellation, not sure where that ended up... that would be one potential liability that CART has which OWRS didn't pick up.

jono

The way I hear it, jono, is that ISC is not too fond of OWRS because of its own "corporate bedfellow" (was that "pc" enough for you? ;) ). With Cal Speedway, it's all business.

CART wanted a huge sanction fee, krapwagens rent the place. Pretty simple in economic terms if you ask me.

Don't get me wrong, I'm still peeved about losing my home track.


..and BTW JCollins, why didn't you ever stop to party with us there? With Vegas and Fontana being virtual "non-issues", and LBGP being so tough to have any party action outside of a bar or club it is rather difficult for the "locals" to get to know each other.

I trust that you know the door is always open.

manic

[jonovision_man]

Originally posted by manic mechanic
The way I hear it, jono, is that ISC is not too fond of OWRS because of its own "corporate bedfellow" (was that "pc" enough for you? ;) ). With Cal Speedway, it's all business.

CART wanted a huge sanction fee, krapwagens rent the place. Pretty simple in economic terms if you ask me.



Yup, Gentilozzi could have been a bit more clear on that, although I'll forgive him since this was an off-the-cuff interview, not a press release.

CART didn't have a problem with Fontana, seems that Fontana had a problem with CART.

I'm curious to see if Korea is a go, they keep saying it is, must be someone there ponying up an awful lot of cash to make it happen.

jono

[owfan]

This is good news, no superspeedway and away with the worst street circuit.

[jonovision_man]

Originally posted by owfan
This is good news, no superspeedway and away with the worst street circuit.

You won't miss the "jump"? :)

OWRS is taking a far more prudent approach, and I'm sure it's modelled after Bernie's style in F1.

It's all about getting the sanctioning fee agreed to before you run the race and knowing what it will mean for your bottom line. Let the promoter sink or swim based on their ability to fill the stands, don't let your company suffer if the promoter fails.

The self-promotes and co-promotes have been a financial disaster.

It most likely will mean some US races are gone, as promoters from other countries (ie. South Korea) out-bid them.

But it's time to start running this as a business, and Kalkhoven seems to understand that. Otherwise there won't be any Champcar racing for anyone to watch.

jono

[racer2c]

I came in late on PG's interview. Did I hear something about St. Pete back on sometime in May?

[devilmaster]

Originally posted by racer2c
I came in late on PG's interview. Did I hear something about St. Pete back on sometime in May?

The talk was that Vegas' original may date race will be put off till the end of the racing calendar, and possibly st. pete will fill the may date.

Steve

[Hot Rod Otis]

Originally posted by nrc
Pook had high hopes that Miami would eventually become Long Beach East.

CART screwed the pooch on Miami becoming the East Coast LBGP way back in 1996, by moving to Homestead. What could have become a glamour showcase event like Long Beach, instead became a just another race on a non-descript oval out in the boonies.

[Ziggy]

Here, Here HRO. You know that the only thing wrong with that first Miami GP was too many NancyBoy's that the fans could not relate too. A victim of politics it was. I did'nt think the country of France really cared...........

Have a Merry Christmas dude, hope you get that Major Matt Mason!

Ziggy

[Lizzerd]

Originally posted by manic mechanic
You guys keep ragging on Fontana as if it was badly attended!

Last year (2002) there was OVER 40k in the house, and this past year there were over 32,000 season ticket holders who either planned on attending, or sold their seats to someone who wanted to be there.

A big oval has a place in CART/OWRS...it adds to the diversity of the series. With Fontana and Vegas apparently "gone" (I have it on inside info that LVMS only talked to CART once, and a deal was never done) from the schedule, to me it will never be the same.

OK, I'm done ranting over losing my "home track". :cry:


manic

I feel your pain, manic. I enjoyed the occasional high speed oval and was saddened to see MIS go to the dark side. It wasn't a "home track", but close enough to be one. I don't remember which year it was, but MIS was the first non-Indy 500 CART race I attended. Mid 80's. There were a small handfull that I didn't go to until TG stole it. I miss that place.

[Dr. Corkski]

Dropping Miami might also have something to do with PG being embarrassed about the massive success of his concerts there. ;)

[RTKar]

Originally posted by manic mechanic
You guys keep ragging on Fontana as if it was badly attended!

Last year (2002) there was OVER 40k in the house, and this past year there were over 32,000 season ticket holders who either planned on attending, or sold their seats to someone who wanted to be there.

A big oval has a place in CART/OWRS...it adds to the diversity of the series. With Fontana and Vegas apparently "gone" (I have it on inside info that LVMS only talked to CART once, and a deal was never done) from the schedule, to me it will never be the same.

OK, I'm done ranting over losing my "home track". :cry:


manic

I miss MIS alot. Myself and a couple friends had a great 10 year or so run of fun trips to MIS but I really don't see high speed ovals being part of OWRS's future as much as I hate to say it. A Champcar at speed at MIS or FONTANA is like putting the exclamation point at the end of the sentence that "CHAMPCAR's rule" but if car counts and attendance are low we shouldn't fight city hall. Just look at what's going on attendance wise in the irl. Maybe in some years to come the idea can be revisited. As far as tracks like Miami, that crap has got to go. It's supposed to be about racing. Not party's, not night life, not concerts. Bad racing on bad tracks won't garner TV ratings no matter how big the party is and tv ratings are the life blood of any top rung racing series. Without tv ratings, there will be no sponsors.

[Ziggy]

Testify Brother!

Ziggy

[pchall]

I never did get out to a race at Fontana, but I do miss Michigan. There's nothing like a field of champcars on a really big oval (as long as it isn't banked so high to become a centrifuge separating a driver's blood supply from his brain).

Tamiami Park and the original downtown Miami race were good racing and fine events. Too bad Ralph Sanchez got attracted by the disaster/redevelopment funds after than hurricane and duped by Roger Penske at the peak of his track buying/building faze.

[RichK]

Fontana was a GREAT track for Champcars. It will be missed.

[Ziggy]

I think the best we can hope for right now is a smaller car for the Street Race action they have planned. You build a car to hit a wall on a Super Speedway and you wind up with a huge car. I have said it before. They are at the fork in the road. Ovals are not well attended. Get an engine maker interested in a small, light weight high horsepower motor and get with the program.

I would ask Ford......

Ziggy

[jonovision_man]

Originally posted by Ziggy
I think the best we can hope for right now is a smaller car for the Street Race action they have planned. You build a car to hit a wall on a Super Speedway and you wind up with a huge car. I have said it before. They are at the fork in the road. Ovals are not well attended. Get an engine maker interested in a small, light weight high horsepower motor and get with the program.

I would ask Ford......

Ziggy

Cosworth already makes engines for F1... and now they have to last an entire race weekend. Possibilities there? CART could use a year-old spec F1 engine... that would kick ass, 19,000RPM, 900+ horsepower, stick it on slicks and CART could see laptimes in the F1 neighbourhood in an awful hurry.

It's not really dreaming, either, when you look at what Premier 1 was planning to do. It was basically going to be a spec series, but with the aero and slicks they would be pushing F1 lap times.

It would go a long way to re-establishing this series at the top levels of racing, rather than the also-ran it's become... :-(

jono

[indyracer56]

Originally posted by jonovision_man
Cosworth already makes engines for F1... and now they have to last an entire race weekend. Possibilities there? CART could use a year-old spec F1 engine... that would kick ass, 19,000RPM, 900+ horsepower, stick it on slicks and CART could see laptimes in the F1 neighbourhood in an awful hurry.

It's not really dreaming, either, when you look at what Premier 1 was planning to do. It was basically going to be a spec series, but with the aero and slicks they would be pushing F1 lap times.

It would go a long way to re-establishing this series at the top levels of racing, rather than the also-ran it's become... :-(

jono

What happened to Premier 1?

Is it dead?

And yeah, it would be great to see Cart be what F1 used to be, mega-horsepower road-course machines. Lots of aero, slick tires, turbos, etc. :cool:

[pchall]

Originally posted by indyracer56
What happened to Premier 1?

Is it dead?

And yeah, it would be great to see Cart be what F1 used to be, mega-horsepower road-course machines. Lots of aero, slick tires, turbos, etc. :cool:

Premier 1 is dead. Bernie and Max's reborn interest in F2 made that a certainty.

I could see champcars using a variation of the 1.5t F1 formula. BMW could supply a modernised version of their killer turbo 4. Ford and everyone else can dust off their 1.5l engines as well. With pop off valves and CART's current mileage expectations the engines would be bullet proof.

[jonovision_man]

Originally posted by indyracer56
What happened to Premier 1?

Is it dead?


Very. It was almost dead already when they put the season start off until 2004, but the final nail in the coffin came with the demise of Reynard, who was designing their chassis.

It was a nice one, too, light with lots of downforce and slicks. Looked very F1-ish. Would have been a very fast little machine, and the even cars would have likely provided quite a spectacle. Some good drivers were mentionned too, wash-ups mostly but guys who I'd love to see driving competitively... Alesi, Mansell, and Herbert were all mentionned.

Anyway, I think there was a thread on this some time back, but it takes on new relevance with CART looking like it will drop ovals. If they aren't on ovals, the chassis becomes negotiable.

jono