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jonovision_man
12-16-03, 09:40 PM
AGR to run 4 cars next year in the IRL!

This either shows that the IRL is very healthy, or that TG is worried about car count and has slipped Michael some green to bolster up the field.

Anyone have any insight?

jono

lone_groover
12-16-03, 09:47 PM
I hope he has his affairs in order.

:p

TippyGomez
12-16-03, 10:46 PM
Man on the street told me that Andretti Honda Racing has kited the Trim Spa deal away from some no talent rich kid from Plano Texas......

tg

Hot Rod Otis
12-16-03, 11:09 PM
Another road racin' Nancy Boy gets a top flite IRL ride.:rofl: How come Billy Boat or Aaron Fike, or Dave Steele, or one of the Fabulous Lazier Boys didn't get this plum ride?

Wasn't it just a couple of years ago that Webb and the rest of the CheeverForum morons were making fun of Herta? How he was to scared to race @ places like TMS. How the 1st time Buddy Lasier blew by him, Herta would park it with "handling problems"? Now they love him.:shakehead

Which version are we on now?

DaveL
12-17-03, 12:09 AM
Originally posted by Hot Rod Otis
Wasn't it just a couple of years ago that Webb and the rest of the CheeverForum morons were making fun of Herta? How he was to scared to race @ places like TMS. How the 1st time Buddy Lasier blew by him, Herta would park it with "handling problems"? Now they love him

I remember that. But then Webbie also proclaimed that the 4.0 original crapmotor was the greatest thing to ever happen to >>>>>>>INDYRACING<<<<<<<<<<<.

That was, what, 5 specs ago?

rabbit
12-17-03, 01:45 AM
One more reason why the IRL just frosts me. :mad:
What a pathetic shame to see a top-flight road racer wasting away in an all-oval series. :shakehead

To answer your question Mikey, (why would you want to turn right?)...
Because it's hard you piece of crap. If it aint a challenge, it aint worth doing.

The sport has been so dumbed down by this joke of a league (it's not a series). Fans wouldn't know real talent if it smacked 'em in the head. There's nothing to seperate the men from the boys, or JPM's grandmama for that matter.

The IRL has talented drivers. They just have no way of proving it.

sadams
12-17-03, 08:28 AM
Beechler. He's just that good. ;)

jonovision_man
12-17-03, 01:09 PM
Originally posted by rabbit

The IRL has talented drivers. They just have no way of proving it.

Indeed.

The IRL field is actually quite strong, some really talented people there. Hopefully CART (OWRS) can lure them over at some point, and get its field back to where it should be.

Dixon, for instance, needs to be in CART or testing for F1, he's a young guy whose road racing career should be well under way. Such a waste to see him peddle-to-the-metal for 200 laps. :(

jono

RaceGrrl
12-17-03, 01:49 PM
Originally posted by jonovision_man
Indeed.

The IRL field is actually quite strong, some really talented people there.


Dixon, Castroneves and Manning, yes.

The rest are washouts, wannabes and has-beens, and few guys who think that Toyota will give them an F1 ride.

jonovision_man
12-17-03, 02:49 PM
Originally posted by RaceGrrl
Dixon, Castroneves and Manning, yes.

The rest are washouts, wannabes and has-beens, and few guys who think that Toyota will give them an F1 ride.

Those in glass houses... CART has some up-and-coming talent, but a lot of rent-a-ride and old timers as well.

I would trade the bottom half of the CART grid for the top half of the IRL grid any day. There's a lot of good drivers at the top end of both series.

BTW, I noticed the IRL changed it's chassis specs to include "road-course radiators and sidepods"...

IRL vs. CART will be raging, it seems. :rolleyes:

jono

RaceGrrl
12-17-03, 03:36 PM
Those in glass houses... CART has some up-and-coming talent, but a lot of rent-a-ride and old timers as well.

Let's compare the top ten finishers in each series for last year:

IRL
1 Scott Dixon 507 good
2 Gil de Ferran 489 good but retired
3 Helio Castroneves 484 good
4 Tony Kanaan 476 mediocre
5 Sam Hornish Jr. 461 ain't all that
6 Al Unser Jr. 374 should be retired -a has been
7 Tomas Scheckter 356 washout
8 Scott Sharp 351 washout
9 Kenny Brack 342 was good- should have retired
10 Tora Takagi 317 :rolleyes:



CART
1 Paul Tracy 226 good
2 Bruno Junqueira 199 good, but twitchy
3 Michel Jourdain Jr. 195 good, consistent as hell
4 Sebastien Bourdais 159 fantastic
5 Patrick Carpentier 146 good
6 Mario Dominguez 118 much improved, but not good yet
7 Oriol Servia 108 disappointing
8 Adrian Fernandez 105 should probably be retired
9 Darren Manning 103 damned good for a rookie in sub-par equipment
10 Alex Tagliani 97 mediocre



IRL vs. CART will be raging, it seems. :rolleyes:


So it seems. These are CART forums. What do you expect?

Don Quixote
12-17-03, 04:06 PM
Nice comparison Racegrrl! :)

jonovision_man
12-17-03, 04:17 PM
Originally posted by RaceGrrl
Those in glass houses... CART has some up-and-coming talent, but a lot of rent-a-ride and old timers as well.

Let's compare the top ten finishers in each series for last year:

IRL
1 Scott Dixon 507 good
2 Gil de Ferran 489 good but retired
3 Helio Castroneves 484 good
4 Tony Kanaan 476 mediocre
5 Sam Hornish Jr. 461 ain't all that
6 Al Unser Jr. 374 should be retired -a has been
7 Tomas Scheckter 356 washout
8 Scott Sharp 351 washout
9 Kenny Brack 342 was good- should have retired
10 Tora Takagi 317 :rolleyes:



CART
1 Paul Tracy 226 good
2 Bruno Junqueira 199 good, but twitchy
3 Michel Jourdain Jr. 195 good, consistent as hell
4 Sebastien Bourdais 159 fantastic
5 Patrick Carpentier 146 good
6 Mario Dominguez 118 much improved, but not good yet
7 Oriol Servia 108 disappointing
8 Adrian Fernandez 105 should probably be retired
9 Darren Manning 103 damned good for a rookie in sub-par equipment
10 Alex Tagliani 97 mediocre



IRL vs. CART will be raging, it seems. :rolleyes:


So it seems. These are CART forums. What do you expect?

That's a little unfair - we all know that the top 10 in the standings for the the IRL has nothing to do with the top 10 in talent. ;)

Before I'm accused of being pro-IRL (gasp!), let me be clear...

I'm not saying that the IRL field is in any way BETTER than CART, I'm just saying they BOTH pretty much stink outside the first few rows. Both series have a whack of has-beens and rent-a-ride drivers.

Thus the "those in glass houses", the IRL and CART fields stack up pretty well against each other, I wouldn't get too down on IRL until we see whose driving CART this year.

jono

nrc
12-17-03, 04:52 PM
Originally posted by jonovision_man
I'm not saying that the IRL field is in any way BETTER than CART, I'm just saying they BOTH pretty much stink outside the first few rows. Both series have a whack of has-beens and rent-a-ride drivers.

The trouble is that with the IRL you'll never be able to get a objective measure of the talent of their drivers. They don't run races, they run a pointless series of pedal mashathons and Joey Chitwood thrill shows. Unless the drivers start scoring style points for the number of rotations before they sail over the fence there's really nothing there to separate one pedal masher from another.

Ziggy
12-17-03, 05:00 PM
Jono

Hate to burst your PC bubble, but if it involves running around in circles looking for flight clearance, The posters on this message board dont really want to hear it.

An IRL grid is a crap shoot/preferred status affair at best. Who got the go fast button? who got the fudged ride height? who got the illegal wing setting? who wants to go to Fire Lake?

Gil, Helio, Kenny, Dario, Tony etal either chose to go to the IRL, or where "forced" by contract commitments. Some got busted up, some have not (yet) To even call that non skilled series of pedal to the metal, lap after freakin' lap dronefest legitimate will draw the fire of true racing fans at OffCamber everytime.

F'em

Ziggy

cartcanuck
12-17-03, 05:02 PM
I think its interesting that Micheal Andretti thinks that he needs 4 cars in a 20 (maybe) car field to win a championship. He'll pretty much guarantee a manufacturers championship, and he'll have teamates on the track after all the others have crashed out to help limp to the end of the race. When you have 20-25% of the field as one team it's pretty sad.

Unless he's hired Herta as an on-staff replacement driver to fill the shoes of the injured drivers throughout the year. It'll be cheaper and easier to have him on staff than to have to find a replacement mid-year.

Ziggy
12-17-03, 05:06 PM
The IRL, it's all about the little guy..

You hit the nail on the head. Hondretti has enough money to hire Herta as to not allow him to take away points towards the championship. Fills the role of blocker car quite nice as well, IWI.

Its like getting an ace backup quarterback from your division rival and benching him.

I hope somewhere Ron Hemelgarn and Gweggie Wray are selling pencils on a street corner

Ziggy

jonovision_man
12-17-03, 05:28 PM
Originally posted by Ziggy
Jono

Hate to burst your PC bubble, but if it involves running around in circles looking for flight clearance, The posters on this message board dont really want to hear it.

An IRL grid is a crap shoot/preferred status affair at best. Who got the go fast button? who got the fudged ride height? who got the illegal wing setting? who wants to go to Fire Lake?

Gil, Helio, Kenny, Dario, Tony etal either chose to go to the IRL, or where "forced" by contract commitments. Some got busted up, some have not (yet) To even call that non skilled series of pedal to the metal, lap after freakin' lap dronefest legitimate will draw the fire of true racing fans at OffCamber everytime.

F'em

Ziggy

Who said anything about the quality of IRL "racing"?

I was simply talking about their field, they do have some talented drivers, and they have about as many untalented drivers as CART.

I don't watch IRL for the most part. It's not at all what I'm interested in, like you said, skill doesn't differentiate.

Many of their drivers did very well in CART, they don't suck just because they drive in another series...

jono

Turn7
12-17-03, 05:40 PM
Originally posted by jonovision_man


...they don't suck just because they drive in another series...

jono

Any other series, no. That series, YES.

mapguy
12-17-03, 05:49 PM
Originally posted by jonovision_man
Who said anything about the quality of IRL "racing"?

I was simply talking about their field, they do have some talented drivers, and they have about as many untalented drivers as CART.

I don't watch IRL for the most part. It's not at all what I'm interested in, like you said, skill doesn't differentiate.

Many of their drivers did very well in CART, they don't suck just because they drive in another series...

jono

Many of their drivers did well in CART? Not bad, but not great either. Earlier you made mention about the top 10 in the irl grid being as good as, if not better than the bottom half of the CART grid. That isn't that much of a stretch, but let's take a look at the top half of the irl grid, shall we?

1. Scott Dixon. Talented guy. Did not too bad in CART. I think he deserves another shot, but he isn't in the same 'league' as Tracy, Bourdais or Junquera.

2. Gil DeFerran. Nice guy. Although I don't think that he would have won those titles without the Renske chassis. Did a decent job but...

3. Helio Castro-Neves. Jimmy Vasser's favorite actor. Isn't qualified to carry Greg Moore's jock. Your prototypica nancy boy.

4. Tony Kanaan. Barely beat HCN to the Indy Lights title. Backed into his only CART win. Went on to challenge for the irl title. Nuff said.

5. Sam Hornish. Other than backing into his only Atlantic win did nothing in the feeders to show that he was something. Other than his dad's deep pockets. The fact that the irl tech group turn a blind eye away from his car during tech tells you something. Want a high five?

6. Al Unser Jr. Thank god those crapwagons have enough space for a cup holder!

7. Tomas Scheckter. A Shiggy with some speed.

8. Scott Sharp. HAHAHAHAHA!

9. Kenny Brack. Had his shot in CART and blew it.

10. Tora Takagi. Had blistering speed in his first F1 season. Also had a blistering ability to stuff it into the wall.

Other than Gil, there is none that I would take over the back part of C^RT's field. Have some more kool-aid.

RaceGrrl
12-17-03, 05:52 PM
Originally posted by jonovision_man
Many of their drivers did very well in CART, they don't suck just because they drive in another series...



Well,they're certainly not doing anything to maintain any truly competitive driving skills.

Lizzerd
12-17-03, 07:50 PM
The irl (no CAPS intentional), may indeed have some formerly "talented" drivers. But, as soon as they sit their butt in a slug that is intended to be driven flat for 200 - 500 miles, they check their talent at the door. After that, it's up to the engine and chassis tuners as to who goes fast. Or, who flies the farthest.

And that's the truth... phhhhhtttt...

RTKar
12-17-03, 08:45 PM
Originally posted by Lizzerd
The irl (no CAPS intentional... phhhhhtttt...

Great minds think alike...I haven't capitalized "irl" since day one either...

Railbird
12-17-03, 09:07 PM
JMO


Looking at those two lists I would rate Dixon and Bourdais as the two with the youth and talent it takes to maybe make a ripple in F1.

Bruno has a few flashes of brilliance and DeFerran is retired.

The strong journymen would appear to be Tracy, Jourdain, Carp, Hornish and Castroneves with Kanaan missing the cut.

Manning looks like a good up and comer except he's already got quite a few miles on him.

The rest are varieties of the mediocre, the washed up, or just the life long wannabe heroes.

jonovision_man
12-18-03, 10:32 AM
Originally posted by Railbird
JMO


Looking at those two lists I would rate Dixon and Bourdais as the two with the youth and talent it takes to maybe make a ripple in F1.

Bruno has a few flashes of brilliance and DeFerran is retired.

The strong journymen would appear to be Tracy, Jourdain, Carp, Hornish and Castroneves with Kanaan missing the cut.

Manning looks like a good up and comer except he's already got quite a few miles on him.

The rest are varieties of the mediocre, the washed up, or just the life long wannabe heroes.

I agree 100%.

Heck, if we want to talk *real* journeymen, look at ALMS, they have some awesome drivers there, very accomplished and professional, many with previous F1 experience. Some of them are getting pretty old, but others are still quite sharp.

I'll just wrap it up by saying that there's not much to choose between the IRL and CART fields, both have similar types and levels of drivers. CART might have a slight edge, but we'll see who ends up in the seats for 2004.

At the end of the day, neither holds a candle to F1.

HOPEFULLY the new ownership returns CART/OWRS to the importance and stature it once had. :) And beyond, this could be the start of something really great.

jono

Ziggy
12-18-03, 05:00 PM
Im suspect of the back half of ANY grid. Formula One mid pack second seats are for sure, FOR SALE.

Ziggy

indyracer56
01-06-04, 07:12 PM
One thing I really dislike about this whole "split" nonsense is the way that Indy Car and/or Cart oval track racing is painted as a "no talent thrill show".

Just in the same way that many at other forums get their panties in a wad over the prospect of road racing.

It's all racing isn't it?

Many of my all time favorite Cart races were on the ovals...so sue me.

Railbird
01-06-04, 07:26 PM
CART's oval shows went into the tank when they balked at changing the engine formula choosing instead to fiddle the aero. Superspeedway packages at short ovals challanged the drivers but made the races prosessional and lets not even get into the slingshot shows with the acursed handford device.

Indycars on the other hand have always either been draft-o-matic momentum fests on the cookie cutters or poor Indylites impressions on the short tracks.

It doesn't matter anyway, Nascar has taken over oval racing.

indyracer56
01-06-04, 10:55 PM
Originally posted by Railbird
..and lets not even get into the slingshot shows with the acursed handford device.


Hey now.....I always enjoyed the hanford races at Michigan. :)

The 2000 race, and the final 10 lap duel between Andretti and Montoya, was a classic.

Railbird
01-06-04, 11:05 PM
imho it was a draft fest that was decided by a backmarker

Ziggy
01-07-04, 12:27 AM
My all time favorite races involved cars without restrictions. CART circa 1995 was host to the greatest racing ever seen.

I went to Michigan
I went to Detroit
I went to Milwaukee
I went to Cleveland
I went to Mid Ohio
I went to Homestead
I went to Fontana
I went to Indianapolis
I went to St Louis
I went to Springfield
I went to DuQuoin
I went to Eldora

Im a big fan of Car Racing. I really enjoy Oval shows.

To even acknowledge that sham of a series run by the Idiot Grandson is to act if you dont know what real car racing, and real competition is. They could start roadracing Crapwagons tomorrow and I would not watch those pikers. Its managed racing. It's extra dangerous. Its a lie.

So in short, it is to racing what McDonalds is to food. To watch Pruit stave off the attack of Al Unser Jr at Michigan in 1994 was a freakin' car race. To watch Mario risk life and limb to keep Tom Sneva behind him at Michigan in 1984 was car racing. To watch Sammy Chins hold off Gay Helio at some rinky dink NASCAR track was a lotto.

You dont need to reply to this thread with an entire quote. This is not TurdForum, these folks can pay attention.

Ziggy

Lizzerd
01-07-04, 12:40 AM
One thing I really dislike about this whole "split" nonsense is the way that Indy Car and/or Cart oval track racing is painted as a "no talent thrill show".

Planting your foot to the floorboard in a car with barn door sized wings with a mandated angle thus generating gobs of downforce until the car gets upset and flies is indeed a "no talent thrill show".

Lizzerd
01-07-04, 12:51 AM
Originally posted by Railbird
CART's oval shows went into the tank when they balked at changing the engine formula choosing instead to fiddle the aero. Superspeedway packages at short ovals challanged the drivers but made the races prosessional and lets not even get into the slingshot shows with the acursed handford device.

Amen, 'bird. The Hanford wing was a curse to superspeedway racing for CART. The road course wings at Milwakee and Phoenix gave us some of the greatest oval racing ever. Side by side, wheel to wheel is a good thing when it isn't the formula that allows the drivers to be there. Rather, the talent and big enough "twins" to do it.

RacinM3
01-07-04, 01:27 AM
CART circa 1995 was host to the greatest racing ever seen.

I Just wanted to make sure everyone reads this line again. I feel sorry for those who were not watching during this period in history.

Hink
01-07-04, 04:21 AM
The Handford Device sucked @$$ from the time Gil de Ferran first tested it in late 1997 until the present.

If you want to see the guy in the lead lose every single time, watch bicycle racing and believe the "little guy" on the team will win this time.

Not that there is anything wrong with that, but it's not my bag, and it's not what grew the sport (CART) pre 1995 either.

Hink
01-07-04, 04:25 AM
Originally posted by indyracer56
One thing I really dislike about this whole "split" nonsense is the way that Indy Car and/or Cart oval track racing is painted as a "no talent thrill show".

It didn't used to be that way pre Handford and pre-IRL.

My first CART race was actually a CRL race. Milwaukee, June 1980.

Ovals done well are excellent. Make no mistake.

Hink
01-07-04, 04:30 AM
Originally posted by Lizzerd
Amen, 'bird. The Hanford wing was a curse to superspeedway racing for CART. The road course wings at Milwakee and Phoenix gave us some of the greatest oval racing ever. Side by side, wheel to wheel is a good thing when it isn't the formula that allows the drivers to be there. Rather, the talent and big enough "twins" to do it.

Another great example of this is Nazareth 1997 - a hell of a race - versus the "stupor" speedway wing mistakes at Nazareth after this.

mapguy
01-07-04, 07:16 AM
Originally posted by indyracer56
One thing I really dislike about this whole "split" nonsense is the way that Indy Car and/or Cart oval track racing is painted as a "no talent thrill show".

Just in the same way that many at other forums get their panties in a wad over the prospect of road racing.

It's all racing isn't it?



Anyone who thinks that "it's all racing" is chugging the kool-aid. 5000 posts at TF not enough for ya?

RTKar
01-07-04, 07:55 AM
Originally posted by Hink
It didn't used to be that way pre Handford and pre-IRL.

My first CART race was actually a CRL race. Milwaukee, June 1980.

Ovals done well are excellent. Make no mistake.


I've seen some great races at Milwaukee, three wide! Unser and Pruett at MIS, pre Handford. Loudon with Mansell in 92. I always used to like Phoenix too. I think the technology outpaced the ability of the governing bodies to devise specs that allowed for good oval track racing without the racing appearing contrived or that allowed for racing at all.

Dr. Corkski
01-07-04, 07:56 AM
Originally posted by Hink
The Handford Device sucked @$$ from the time Gil de Ferran first tested it in late 1997 until the present.

If you want to see the guy in the lead lose every single time, watch bicycle racing and believe the "little guy" on the team will win this time.The Handford fuel milage effect made it so that no one wanted to lead, and that's just not racing when the objective is to not lead. (unless you happen to be Juan Pablo Montoya).

But at least CART finally turned two wrongs into a right - the 2002 Fontana race didn't turn out too badly with the pit windows.

pchall
01-07-04, 09:09 AM
Originally posted by indyracer56
Hey now.....I always enjoyed the hanford races at Michigan. :)

The 2000 race, and the final 10 lap duel between Andretti and Montoya, was a classic.

The Handford events weren't racing, they were slingshot exibitions and fuel economy trials. They were the worst thing to ever happen to champcar racing on big ovals other than the IRL.

cart7
01-07-04, 11:11 AM
Originally posted by Lizzerd
Planting your foot to the floorboard in a car with barn door sized wings with a mandated angle thus generating gobs of downforce until the car gets upset and flies is indeed a "no talent thrill show".
hee hee, good one. :D

indyracer56
01-07-04, 01:43 PM
Originally posted by RacinM3
I Just wanted to make sure everyone reads this line again. I feel sorry for those who were not watching during this period in history.

I was following Cart long before 1995.

As a matter of fact, in 1995 I attended the Indy 500, the Detroit GP and the Michigan 500.

It's too bad that the fact that I post somewhere else seems to cause such a problem for some.

Perhaps I'm just able to find enjoyment in things for what they are, without all of the political garbage.

Apparantly I'm in the wrong place for racing discussions.

jonovision_man
01-07-04, 02:04 PM
Originally posted by indyracer56


Perhaps I'm just able to find enjoyment in things for what they are, without all of the political garbage.



Agreed. Politics gets in the way of us all just being race fans. If there's something you see in the IRL that you enjoy, good on you, enjoy it.

I don't personally like the series, I think they have entirely too much downforce and you really shouldn't be able to go flat-out on any circuit... but I have caught myself watching it occasionally. No doubt the closeness of it is exciting at times. I just don't think talent is enough of a differentiator in their formula.

jono

pchall
01-07-04, 02:07 PM
Originally posted by indyracer56

Apparantly I'm in the wrong place for racing discussions.

You are just in the wrong place for uncritically saying "It's all racing isn't it?" This is a forum where members have well defined standards for good racing on ovals, road courses, and street circuits.

BTW, this is a matter of taste, not politics.

indyracer56
01-07-04, 02:17 PM
Well, the last thing I am looking to do is to get into arguments with people.

I think that we all have a lot more in common than we sometimes do realize.

JoeBob
01-07-04, 02:32 PM
I don't see any politics in this thread. There's as much distaste for Handford devices as there is for rev-limiters and wing angles.

Open Wheel cars put on their best shows at tracks with relatively little banking. Stock cars put on their best shows at tracks with high banking. There are few (if any) tracks that produce great racing (without manipulating of the rules) for both.

IMHO, the solution to all of the "cars are going too fast" problems isn't to slap on barn doors and rev-limiters, but to knock down the banking. However, in today's racing world, most oval tracks are built for (and by) NASCAR.

There's still enough tracks out there that are capable of hosting great open wheel racing, but developing them into sustainable events is difficult at best - which is why they've already been ignored or abandoned.

Gateway, New Hampshire, Phoenix, Milwaukee, Pocono, Indianapolis, Chicago, Michigan, Fontana, Nazareth, Richmond and Pike's Peak all seem suited well enough for Open Wheel cars to head out without rev-limiters, wing angles, and handford devices. (Michigan and Fontana being the toughest - but with the right formula, it could probably be done.)

But, holding races on those 10 tracks would require somebody to lose an awful lot of money getting things up and running. Some of the tracks require serious construction, some serious marketing, and some both. Only one even comes close to a "sell out." But, the powers that be are much happier putting on a show in Texas than a race in New Hampshire.

FTG
01-07-04, 03:40 PM
Originally posted by pchall
The Handford events weren't racing, they were slingshot exibitions and fuel economy trials. They were the worst thing to ever happen to champcar racing on big ovals other than the IRL.

I didn't mind one or two sling shot exhibitions a year. As long as it was "real racing" the rest of the year.

RichK
01-07-04, 03:45 PM
Originally posted by indyracer56

Apparantly I'm in the wrong place for racing discussions.

No, you're not. You know exactly where you are.


Originally posted by indyracer56
It's all racing isn't it?


No, it's not.

:thumdown:

Ziggy
01-07-04, 04:59 PM
indyracer56

After spending the last week getting caught up on my forum reading, it seems to me that you have no problem yuking it up with the Lemmings over CART's demise.

Read : Bootlicker

Most of the guys on this site have either been booted off that forum, or never registered.

No matter how you slice it, the spending power of this message board will never cast one nickel towards the Inbread Racin' League. You seem to have cast your lot with your history of posts.

It's not politics.

It's fact

Ziggy

PS - I would question your "racing" enjoyment as well, What the hell do you watch?

indyracer56
01-07-04, 07:04 PM
Originally posted by Ziggy
indyracer56

After spending the last week getting caught up on my forum reading, it seems to me that you have no problem yuking it up with the Lemmings over CART's demise.

Read : Bootlicker

Most of the guys on this site have either been booted off that forum, or never registered.

No matter how you slice it, the spending power of this message board will never cast one nickel towards the Inbread Racin' League. You seem to have cast your lot with your history of posts.

It's not politics.

It's fact

Ziggy

PS - I would question your "racing" enjoyment as well, What the hell do you watch?

You know, some of you like to put forth the notion that you are of a higher intellect than some of the rest of us, interesting that you have to resort to name calling isn't it?

Being a pompous jerk does not give the impression of intellect.

It just gives the impression that you are a pompous jerk.

mapguy
01-07-04, 07:19 PM
Originally posted by indyracer56
You know, some of you like to put forth the notion that you are of a higher intellect than some of the rest of us, interesting that you have to resort to name calling isn't it?

Being a pompous jerk does not give the impression of intellect.

It just gives the impression that you are a pompous jerk.

Why don't you go back to your 'intellectual' buddies like Defender and Wilke and the rest of the crowd at that C^RT Hate Site. 4700+ posts there don't exactly give you the 'higher' moral ground here.

Ziggy knows more about the open wheel scene in North America than any of us, save Railbird, would ever dream of.

Kool-Aid isn't served here at OC. Go somewhere else.

Ziggy
01-07-04, 07:21 PM
Spewing anti CART posts on the Internet and not using a different name to register hear shows what?

A savant you aint!

Ziggy

Don Quixote
01-07-04, 07:57 PM
ir56: I give you credit for showing up here to discuss racing, if that's what you want to do.

However, you should know Ziggy is the farthest thing from a pompous jerk that you will ever meet.

RacinM3
01-07-04, 08:09 PM
ir56, my comment wasn't aimed at you, it was aimed at everyone and was meant to underscore how sad I am at the current state of things. If you're not right there with me, then you weren't paying attention to the quality of racing you were witnessing in the early- to mid-nineties.

And to accept the IRL as what it's being portrayed by the people who run that series, in any way shape or form, is simply just lying to yourself.

Railbird
01-07-04, 08:47 PM
First off let me say that Zig has some well read insights into some eras and areas of openwheel racing that I am somewhat vague on, and hopefully it's vice versa. That's what makes our meetings so interesting.

now back to the current topic

I56, if I was sitting at Cwagon ripping the IRL and then turned up at TrackForum as a newbie using the same handle saying it was all good, and how we should just ignore our preferences and get along, how well do think that would go over with the true believers?

I know you've attended some CART shows and "used to be a fan of the series" so I thought you might be coming over to talk OWRS and it's future possibilities. But no, after a few suck-up posts you start into your IRL sales pitch.

This ain't the place.


These characters know I attend some IRL events but they also know I attend 50 lap 50 car Bomber fests. I don't try to sell either as the same level of racing that the Champcar circuit is, mainly because they aren't, but also because this is a dedicated ChampCar site.

Ziggy and I are both short track fans, but we have no illusions about being able to afford enough liquor to drag pchall or groover to Terra Haute.

it's not politics racefan, it's preference

Sorry for not being all warm and fuzzy.

indyracer56
01-07-04, 08:55 PM
Originally posted by Ziggy
Spewing anti CART posts on the Internet and not using a different name to register hear shows what?


That I am a realist.

Cart has some real problems...so does the IRL.

And it also shows that I have nothing to hide.

And problems aren't solved by a few chants of FTG.

And they aren't solved by attacking each other.

At least most of the folks who post at trackforum know how to be civil and not talk down to people.

And in spite of what others try to tell me, it is possible to be a fan of F1, Cart and the IRL.

I don't only listen to one style of music, and I don't only follow one style of racing.

I was not the one who lashed out, I was just responding to insults being tossed my way.

Just what is it that some of you are afraid of?

There are guys like that on trackforum too, "no right turns", etc.

I really don't understand all of the closed minds.

Life is way too short for all of the junk.

I just enjoy being a fan, and attempting to discuss racing with other fans of open wheel racing.

Sorry my presence here is so disruptive to some of you.

Color me gone.

But if you guys want a bash fest, go for it.

Railbird
01-07-04, 09:02 PM
I'm thinking you came here looking for a little martyrdom.

Now you can whine about what a bunch of asholes are on OC.

have fun

SeventhGear is a good place to talk a little CART doom and gloom and how you enjoy this that and the other.

but you already knew that I'm sure

cart7
01-07-04, 09:02 PM
We now return you to our regularly scheduled bashfest.

Railbird
01-07-04, 09:09 PM
did I mis-spell *******?

well I guess I did.


just checkin

Racewriter
01-07-04, 10:07 PM
Originally posted by indyracer56
At least most of the folks who post at trackforum know how to be civil and not talk down to people.



Oh, please.:rolleyes:

BTW - I appear to no longer be an 'active' member on TF...

devilmaster
01-07-04, 10:07 PM
I was avoiding putting my 2 bits worth in, but why not.

Having met both Zig and Rail, along with alot of others here, I can say, without a doubt, I have met alot of really knowledgable race fans. They know more than I will ever remember.

Now, if we were the lemming hating bunch that you say we are, wouldn't we have run people like Railbird and Racewriter and SeanO out of here also? I mean, they all admitted to watching the IRL, and are fans to their own degrees. (Bird, RW, and SeanO - i don't think you as lemmings.)

But they have come here and, IMO, are welcomed here by the regular members as members. And in fact, so were you. I remember the thread that started with an 'Uh-oh', but also included welcome messages to OC.

So how is it we OC lemming haters can accept others with different viewpoints but apparently not yours?

Methinks 'Bird was onto something when he said martyrdom.

I'd colour you gone, but i can't find that colour in my 64 crayola box. Anyone have the bigger set and check for the gone colour? Thx.

Steve

Turn7
01-07-04, 10:25 PM
I think we had gotten to 3.

cart7
01-07-04, 10:41 PM
And in spite of what others try to tell me, it is possible to be a fan of F1, Cart and the IRL.

And yet you bash Cart hoping for it's demise and chortle along with all the rest over there every chance you get. There's a time and a place for everything, this is obviously not your time in this place. ;)

Ankf00
01-08-04, 04:27 AM
Originally posted by devilmaster
Now, if we were the lemming hating bunch that you say we are, wouldn't we have run people like Railbird and Racewriter and SeanO out of here also? I mean, they all admitted to watching the IRL, and are fans to their own degrees. (Bird, RW, and SeanO - i don't think you as lemmings.)

Steve

you're right, Sean is a shill not a lemming ;)

FTG
01-08-04, 08:00 AM
A few chants of FTG may not solve things, but at least they put the blame where it belongs.

While the Frances were building a racing series the Hulman/George's were banging the stable boy, having gun fights, allowing the formation of CART, doing coke, instigating splits and letting NASCAR run on the sacred bricks.

I've never understood why the people who claim to love Indy most, are most likely to defend the people who destroyed it, or why they like to argue on the Internet with people who are angry about what's happened to Indy.

chop456
01-08-04, 09:05 AM
Originally posted by FTG

I've never understood why the people who claim to love Indy most, are most likely to defend the people who destroyed it.

It's NOT destroyed. In fact, it's thriving.

In the immortal words of Ian Faith, "It's not that it's popularity is waning - it's appeal is just becoming more selective". ;)

What the CART-haters are swooning over now is what they railed against in '95. Only the most obtuse are unable to see that they've been sold a bill of goods.

Racewriter
01-08-04, 10:22 AM
Originally posted by FTG
A few chants of FTG may not solve things, but at least they put the blame where it belongs.

While the Frances were building a racing series the Hulman/George's were banging the stable boy, having gun fights, allowing the formation of CART, doing coke, instigating splits and letting NASCAR run on the sacred bricks.

I've never understood why the people who claim to love Indy most, are most likely to defend the people who destroyed it, or why they like to argue on the Internet with people who are angry about what's happened to Indy.

Y'know, as much as I'd like to take issue with the above paragraph...

I can't. It's a pretty good summation.

jonovision_man
01-08-04, 10:44 AM
Some really good insights on Herta's driving for AGR... :rolleyes:

Anyone care to stop bickering long enough to discuss racing?

Maybe we need a separate thread for "Arguing, Bickering, and Whining about being mistreated"? ;)

jono

mapguy
01-08-04, 10:46 AM
Strange... You have a nick taken from a Canadian TV show yet you sound more and more like someone from Marion County, IN.

JT265
01-08-04, 11:02 AM
FTG wrote "While the Frances were building a racing series the Hulman/George's were banging the stable boy, having gun fights, allowing the formation of CART, doing coke, instigating splits and letting NASCAR run on the sacred bricks."


If Toeknee hadn't enabled the scorched earth deal we have now, the Hulman family sound like a hoot to hang with.

(If you wear Kevlar, at least)


:D

Warlock!
01-08-04, 11:24 AM
Originally posted by jonovision_man
Some really good insights on Herta's driving for AGR... :rolleyes:

Anyone care to stop bickering long enough to discuss racing?
Shaddap! At least the little green lights are lit up almost everytime I visit this place lately...

:D

Winter Warlock!

FTG
01-08-04, 11:39 AM
Originally posted by Racewriter
Y'know, as much as I'd like to take issue with the above paragraph...

I can't. It's a pretty good summation.


I was sure you were going to take issue.

It's only a matter of time until you're passed out in Spicolli's backyard with all the other crappies.;)

Racewriter
01-08-04, 12:00 PM
Originally posted by FTG
I was sure you were going to take issue.

It's only a matter of time until you're passed out in Spicolli's backyard with all the other crappies.;)

:D:D:D

Don't get me wrong - I'm not an "FTG" guy. I'm still of the opinion that he's had plenty of help killing openwheel racing. But he's been a big part of it.

Your summation of the Hulman/George reign, though, was on target.

FTG
01-08-04, 12:33 PM
And when the Hulman's didn't take charge of growing the series, Penske, Ganassi etc. did.

They were all looking out for number one, so that didn't work too good either.

Where the Hulmans and the Gomers screw up is thinking that starting a new series would help things. Penske's a whore. If TG had offered him a check, the Hulmans would own Indycar and NASCAR would be Indycar's bitch.

But you can't rewrite history. And you can't blame the problems of Indycar on anyone but the owners of Indycar.

(The Frances had problems with their drivers and car owners. They sovled them.)

FTG
01-08-04, 12:33 PM
Originally posted by Racewriter
:D:D:D

I'm not an "FTG" guy.

You should try it. It's a lot of fun.

JLMannin
01-08-04, 12:44 PM
FTG - for the longest time, I thought it stood for Fomula Tony George. Then I finally caught on . . . . .

pchall
01-08-04, 12:47 PM
Originally posted by Railbird
Ziggy and I are both short track fans, but we have no illusions about being able to afford enough liquor to drag pchall or groover to Terra Haute.


'bird, you gotta know I'm a pretty cheap date, but I do have standards and taste. ;)

Spicoli
01-08-04, 12:52 PM
Originally posted by FTG
I was sure you were going to take issue.

It's only a matter of time until you're passed out in Spicolli's backyard with all the other crappies.;)

We really are a nice bunch of people. Really, we are...And its not passing out, but rather "napping"...:cool:

Have you seen our EARL spotters guide?:saywhat:


http://homepage.mac.com/smcphail/spottersguide/guide.html


and oh yeah - FTGFTG & F F'in TG!







now back to your regular programming.

pchall
01-08-04, 12:53 PM
Originally posted by Warlock!
Shaddap! At least the little green lights are lit up almost everytime I visit this place lately...

:D

Winter Warlock!

Isn't it amazing how a pet lemming livens up the house? Too bad mnkywrnch curled up behind the couch and died...

jonovision_man
01-09-04, 12:01 PM
Originally posted by mapguy
Strange... You have a nick taken from a Canadian TV show yet you sound more and more like someone from Marion County, IN.

I'm pure Canadian... we're all about setting aside our differences, aren't we?

Yup, jonovision, the short-lived TV show staring Jonathan Torrens, now of Trailer Park Boys fame. Formerly of Street Cents. Need more proof? ;)

jono

FCYTravis
01-09-04, 04:03 PM
Originally posted by RacinM3
I Just wanted to make sure everyone reads this line again. I feel sorry for those who were not watching during this period in history.
Absofrigginloutely. Absofrigginloutely.

I began watching CART in 1991 and the period from then into the mid-1990s was the best racing ever from any North American high-horsepower formula car sanctioning body in history. Ever.

I wish we had those days back :(

Dirty Sanchez
01-09-04, 04:36 PM
:rofl: Why didn't I catch on sooner that this thread has almost nothing to do with Herta?

Everyday I see a green light next to this thread and I think to myself, "Self... WGAF about that? Next!".







:gomer:

jonovision_man
01-09-04, 05:16 PM
Originally posted by FCYTravis

I wish we had those days back :(

There's reason for optimism, with OWRS poised to change significantly and TG still hemoraging money, something's gotta give, soon.

Neither OWRS nor TG can survive the way've they've been surviving, digging deep into their own pockets to keep fighting a fight that's killing them both.

jono

mapguy
01-09-04, 05:23 PM
Originally posted by jonovision_man
I'm pure Canadian... we're all about setting aside our differences, aren't we?

Yup, jonovision, the short-lived TV show staring Jonathan Torrens, now of Trailer Park Boys fame. Formerly of Street Cents. Need more proof? ;)

jono

BTW. I AM Canadian. I am on an ultra secret mission from Molson Breweries to test samples of Yankee Microbrews. My mission started in 1997 and I have been requesting extensions ever since....

jonovision_man
01-09-04, 05:41 PM
Originally posted by mapguy
BTW. I AM Canadian. I am on an ultra secret mission from Molson Breweries to test samples of Yankee Microbrews. My mission started in 1997 and I have been requesting extensions ever since....

Mmmm... American microbrews = good stuff. Too many Canucks overlook them because of the standard American beers being pigswill... :)

jono

mapguy
01-09-04, 05:44 PM
Originally posted by jonovision_man
Mmmm... American microbrews = good stuff. Too many Canucks overlook them because of the standard American beers being pigswill... :)

jono

No spit. When I first moved down here in '97 I was afraid of what my selection would be. All I thought there would be is Bud, Miller and Coors. Now I actually think that the American Micro Brews are better than the Canadian ones. You go to the local brew stores here and there are tons of American Micro Brews, plus an amazing selection of European brews. It was a refreshing change from going to the Beer Store in Ontario. I only wish that Growlers (Victoria and King downtown TO) would bottle their stuff.

FTG
01-09-04, 06:36 PM
Originally posted by Crapus
:rofl: Why didn't I catch on sooner that this thread has almost nothing to do with Herta?

Everyday I see a green light next to this thread and I think to myself, "Self... WGAF about that? Next!".







:gomer:

Took me a while to catch on too. Any thread over two pages is worth checking out again. Especially here.

jonovision_man
01-09-04, 09:28 PM
Originally posted by mapguy
I only wish that Growlers (Victoria and King downtown TO) would bottle their stuff.

No kidding, I'll have to check it out... I always liked Smokeless Joe's, (John & Adelaide), they could always be counted on for a wide selection of stuff, not brewed there but imported. Their beer menu has literally hundreds of beers... if you can't find something you like there, you don't like beer!

So yeah, Herta... :)

jono

indyracer56
01-15-04, 11:45 PM
And yet you bash Cart hoping for it's demise and chortle along with all the rest over there every chance you get. There's a time and a place for everything, this is obviously not your time in this place. ;)

:rolleyes:

JT265
01-16-04, 12:14 AM
Good evening all. I won't take too much of your time, I simply wanted to reinforce the message here and say....

FTG!

Sideways, and dry.

Thank you.

You may now return to your discussion.


:D

Oh, and Indyracer, keep us updated on the success of that Crapwagon lawsuit, K?

cart7
01-16-04, 08:55 AM
:rolleyes:

indyracer56 sez:

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Suing the punks who run CW.

Just for the heck of it.

And then using the money that they would win from them to plaster the airwaves with IndyCar ads.

Justice.


__________________
Just another inhabitant of the strange island of circular racing.

Nice stuff ir56. Care to elaborate on your Cart fandom now?? :shakehead

WickerBill
01-16-04, 09:12 AM
Nice stuff ir56. Care to elaborate on your Cart fandom now?? :shakehead


Sorry, he's not going to have an opportunity to elaborate...

RTKar
01-16-04, 09:28 AM
:rofl: Why didn't I catch on sooner that this thread has almost nothing to do with Herta?

Everyday I see a green light next to this thread and I think to myself, "Self... WGAF about that? Next!".







:gomer:


It's just Herta mania finally catching on...

FTG
01-16-04, 11:12 AM
Good thread. Possibly my favorite ever on OC.

Hink
01-16-04, 03:06 PM
Bummer.

One less two faced hypochondriac Kool Aid swilling lemming to play with.

It was fun for awhile.

Ziggy
01-16-04, 05:32 PM
I saw this clown on this message board last night. I read his post, and then took the high road.

He is of the "I told you so" variety

We shall see

Ziggy

JT265
01-16-04, 09:37 PM
I woulda followed you up that high road Ziggy, but you know what they say about the path of least resistance and such.

;)