View Full Version : Is it over? Is she singing?
racer2c
12-03-03, 12:26 PM
:confused:
If it is over it is something I made peace with a year ago when Toyota and Honda left. That ripped the guts right out of CART when they took their teams with. I was only a passive fan this season.
I can live CART's demise. What I will never forgive or forget is that Penske and Ganassi acted as a Fifth Column as they put their needs and greed first and foremost. The vote to go with the Tonymotors, forced upon CART by those two, was the beginning of the end. They forced that vote not because the Tonymotors were best for CART, they did it because it was best for them and them only-fans be damned. Never mind that without fans there would have been no reason for TCGR or Penske Racing in first place.
The IRL will not have me as a fan, nor will many of CARTisans. The sport is dead.
It was fun while it lasted.
racer2c
12-03-03, 12:53 PM
Originally posted by DaveL
If it is over it is something I made peace with a year ago when Toyota and Honda left. That ripped the guts right out of CART when they took their teams with. I was only a passive fan this season.
I can live CART's demise. What I will never forgive or forget is that Penske and Ganassi acted as a Fifth Column as they put their needs and greed first and foremost. The vote to go with the Tonymotors, forced upon CART by those two, was the beginning of the end. They forced that vote not because the Tonymotors were best for CART, they did it because it was best for them and them only-fans be damned. Never mind that without fans there would have been no reason for TCGR or Penske Racing in first place.
The IRL will not have me as a fan, nor will many of CARTisans. The sport is dead.
It was fun while it lasted.
My sentiments exactly Dave.
I wrote a few weeks back that I would rather just have fond memories of the CART I once loved, than be a fan of a Tony George run open wheel series.
You guys are too easy. Do any of you really think Boy George is the answer? Obviously, given the ratings and attendance, no one else does either.
The CART formula of street course, road courses and ovals within a well managed organization has a much better chance of succeeding than a one race series in which the sanctioning body can NEVER be allowed to become as successful as the one event.
It’s not over, it’s just beginning. Now a grown up CART, which has cut the apron strings from Gomerville, can emerge. I don’t like going through this either, but I see that others have the courage and the foresight to do succeed, and they will.
RacinM3
12-03-03, 01:27 PM
DaveL lays the blame at RP's and CG's feet. I'd go with that and add, obviously TG, but also NASCAR, who saw an opportunity a LONG time ago to divide US OW racing to their benefit. They're doing the same in sports car racing now.
There are so many villains in this drama it's not even funny. It wasn't a victimless crime, either. We are the victims.
It looks nasty right now, but I'll wait until Forsythe buys crapwagons before I look for the calorie-challenged lady.
Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor?
Hell no.
pfc_m_drake
12-03-03, 02:44 PM
Originally posted by FTG
Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor?
Hell no.
There are times when I don't even know what to say. This is one of them.
lone_groover
12-03-03, 02:46 PM
Let's be prudent like JT :eek:, and wait for the big ballaz to play their hands.
OK?
Bankruptcy and "Out of Business" are not the same thing - not even close.
Sometimes, bankruptcy is the cheapest, fastest, easiest way to do an aquisition. You get the stuff you want, without having to get all the junk that comes with it.
Take a look at how American Airlines acquired TWA if you want a text book example of using bankruptcy instead of a merger to make an aquisition.
Originally posted by FTG
Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor?
Hell no.
It aint over until we say it's over!!!!
Wheel-Nut
12-03-03, 03:04 PM
Originally posted by pfc_m_drake
There are times when I don't even know what to say. This is one of them.
I think he was quoting the movie Animal House.
pfc_m_drake
12-03-03, 03:06 PM
Originally posted by Wheel-Nut
I think he was quoting the movie Stripes.
Very good. Fair enough...I'm not familiar with the movie, obviously. In that case, I certainly offer my apologies.
Warlock!
12-03-03, 03:33 PM
Originally posted by pfc_m_drake
There are times when I don't even know what to say. This is one of them.
Shut up... He's on a roll!
Warlock!
jonovision_man
12-03-03, 03:36 PM
Originally posted by JoeBob
Bankruptcy and "Out of Business" are not the same thing - not even close.
Sometimes, bankruptcy is the cheapest, fastest, easiest way to do an aquisition. You get the stuff you want, without having to get all the junk that comes with it.
Take a look at how American Airlines acquired TWA if you want a text book example of using bankruptcy instead of a merger to make an aquisition.
Yes, but in the case of an airline, most of the assets are tangible physical things. In the case of CART, it's mostly vapour, there won't be all that much for Forsythe to buy.
All those contracts with circuits are history, they go up in smoke with CART, he gets a blank slate. That may be positive in some cases, where they were obliged to race places they would have prefered to avoid. But it means if he wants to race in 2004, he has to re-negotiate every deal.
OWRS buying CART would have meant 2004 could happen, the company would still be intact.
Buying it in pieces and kobbling something together means failure is a lot more likely, and 2004 is almost impossible.
:(
jono
The way I see it is, the individual venue's aren't going to sit around much past Dec. 19th waiting to find out if there will be a Cart or an OWRS or not, those that have the most to lose will be signing up with TG as soon as possible. It's possible that if nothing is resolved til a couple months's into the new year, many venues will have sold themselves off to the earl. Game, set, match.
Too bad, it was a fun 24 years. :(
Oh well, there's ALMS, F1, Supercars, SCCA and some more to watch. Hell, I may actually try to really sit down and find something about Nascar to really like. :eek: That's a scary thought.
Originally posted by jonovision_man
All those contracts with circuits are history, they go up in smoke with CART
Why is this assumed? How do we know the contracts aren't transferable, subject to agreement of both parties?
I'm sticking with a wait-and-see attitude. I love watching ChampCars. I have no doubt in my mind that at some point in the future, I'll watch them again. But I'm not wasting emotional energy wringing my hands over a racing series.
PS: I seriously doubt that any kind of 'merger' with the !RL will happen, as has been put forth in a few threads...do people really believe TG would cooperate/make nicey nice in some kind of partnership??!!
Calm down everyone. This is not over.....
Ziggy
racer2c
12-03-03, 05:32 PM
Originally posted by Ziggy
Calm down everyone. This is not over.....
Ziggy
I can stop breathing heavy now?
jonovision_man
12-03-03, 05:34 PM
Originally posted by Type-S
Why is this assumed? How do we know the contracts aren't transferable, subject to agreement of both parties?
In contract law, the parties entering into the contract are almost never transferable.
They could draw up a new contract with the same content, or something like that, but then they enter some fuzzy legal ground. Ie. if CART had exclusive arrangements, their existing contract could prevent OWRS from signing something without CART's waiving their exclusivity.
Bottom line - no matter how you slice it, there is a *lot* of work to get the contracts in place again and go racing. I'm not holding my breathe, it'll be 2005 at the earliest IMO.
jono
racer2c
12-03-03, 05:45 PM
Originally posted by jonovision_man
In contract law, the parties entering into the contract are almost never transferable.
They could draw up a new contract with the same content, or something like that, but then they enter some fuzzy legal ground. Ie. if CART had exclusive arrangements, their existing contract could prevent OWRS from signing something without CART's waiving their exclusivity.
Bottom line - no matter how you slice it, there is a *lot* of work to get the contracts in place again and go racing. I'm not holding my breathe, it'll be 2005 at the earliest IMO.
jono
A year off would do irreparable damage. It would probably be better for public perception if CART announced it's demise and in '05 a new open wheel series started. But with TG clambering to pic up the events, the new series would be left with scraps.
That just isn't true, jono. For example, one of the assets AA acquired from TWA were Airport Gate leases. Contracts to fly charters for professional sports teams and/or the military were also acquired.
A lot of things depend on how CART is structured. For example, is the ChampCar series an entity owned by CART, Inc.?
If race agreements are between the ChampCar Series and the promoter, then the contracts would still stand. The only change would be that the ChampCar series is now owned by OWRS, LLC, not CART, Inc.
Heck, they could even reorganize the company into CART LLC which would be owned by OWRS.
Don Quixote
12-03-03, 07:04 PM
Originally posted by Ziggy
Calm down everyone. This is not over.....
Ziggy
Agreed. I look forward to see the Phoenix that rises from the ashes!
Lizzerd
12-03-03, 07:13 PM
Originally posted by Ziggy
Calm down everyone. This is not over.....
Ziggy
Thank you, Ziggy. A voice of reason rises above the noise.
Is it over? Is she singing?
CART won't be the only victim...it'll eventually be all open wheel racing in north America as we've known it. Any "victory" by the irl will be temporary. The true battle ground is fannies in the stands and television ratings, which the irl doesn't have.
Originally posted by Warlock!
Shut up... He's on a roll!
Warlock!
Niedermeyer....DEAD!
You guys are all on double secret probation.
The only differance in what is going on with CART right now and the IRL. TG still has alittle money left. Don't give up yet it isn't over if CART is to be it will get through this.
Thanks Linda
Originally posted by Linda
The only differance in what is going on with CART right now and the IRL. TG still has alittle money left. Don't give up yet it isn't over if CART is to be it will get through this.
Thanks Linda
If Honda and Toyota drop out (a big if), the irl WILL be in the same boat...and what will we have for major open wheel racing in North America?...NASCAR is the ultimate winner in all of this, TG was too stupid to have seen who the real "enemy" was in 1995.
jonovision_man
12-03-03, 11:49 PM
Originally posted by JoeBob
That just isn't true, jono. For example, one of the assets AA acquired from TWA were Airport Gate leases. Contracts to fly charters for professional sports teams and/or the military were also acquired.
A lot of things depend on how CART is structured. For example, is the ChampCar series an entity owned by CART, Inc.?
If race agreements are between the ChampCar Series and the promoter, then the contracts would still stand. The only change would be that the ChampCar series is now owned by OWRS, LLC, not CART, Inc.
Heck, they could even reorganize the company into CART LLC which would be owned by OWRS.
I would love for that to be the case, but I just don't share your optimism. It's going to take a lot to get anything close to a field of cars ready for a schedule of races in 2004.
jono
Originally posted by RTKar
If Honda and Toyota drop out (a big if), the irl WILL be in the same boat...and what will we have for major open wheel racing in North America?...NASCAR is the ultimate winner in all of this, TG was too stupid to have seen who the real "enemy" was in 1995.
Yep, he let the fox into the chicken coop. TG is no more running the show there than Pook is running Cart now. Dumb a**, he could have kept things real cozy for himself by changing to the Vortec engine that the ASA uses and run a couple spec chassis. By making the series real cheap to run, he's got a ton of entrants. But nooooo, he decides to try and kill Cart by sacrificing his own "So called ideals" he formed the league on, the very things (leasing, road race drivers, etc) he said were going to kill Cart are going to take his pathetic league down in due course. Meanwhile, Nascar keeps selling Earnhart diecasts, steals USACers from the earl and keeps getting bigger. Pretty soon it'll be the Brickyard 500 run on Memorial day. I can't wait. :gomer:
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