View Full Version : Please help me answer my son's question
Andrew Longman
09-28-03, 11:09 AM
When Junky hit the wall in quals yesterday my son and I noticed a brief yellow flame around the tire as it blew.
My son asked what caused the yellow flame and I couldn't tell him.
I've seen this before when a car makes impact with the wall but never really thought about it.
There is not combustable gas in the tire. Perhaps it is hot brake fluid combusting when it hits the air?
Ideas?
Originally posted by Andrew Longman
When Junky hit the wall in quals yesterday my son and I noticed a brief yellow flame around the tire as it blew.
My son asked what caused the yellow flame and I couldn't tell him.
I've seen this before when a car makes impact with the wall but never really thought about it.
There is not combustable gas in the tire. Perhaps it is hot brake fluid combusting when it hits the air?
Ideas?
Could be that the wheel is made from magnesium.
Originally posted by mapguy
Could be that the wheel is made from magnesium.
You are correct sir. :p
Last time I was around for tire servicing at a CART paddock it looked like they were filling the tires with nitrogen. Nothing is going to happed when that is released to air.
Originally posted by pchall
Last time I was around for tire servicing at a CART paddock it looked like they were filling the tires with nitrogen. Nothing is going to happed when that is released to air.
You too are correct, as it doesn't change density with ambient and tire temp. Of course, it would have to be released into the air to explode. Just tickling the sidewall won't do it.
You gotta share the props with Mappy tho' PC. ;)
RARules
09-28-03, 09:10 PM
re: using nitrogen to fill tires:
Originally posted by JT265
You too are correct, as it doesn't change density with ambient and tire temp.
All gases expand and contract with temperature changes. PV=nRT (and that's from 30 years ago...) Pressure times volume = number of molecules time natural gas constant times temperature (relative to absolute zero).
Originally posted by RARules
re: using nitrogen to fill tires:
All gases expand and contract with temperature changes. PV=nRT (and that's from 30 years ago...) Pressure times volume = number of molecules time natural gas constant times temperature (relative to absolute zero).
I believe they use nitrogen because it's less liable to contain water molecules like oxygen would, which definitely expands a great deal when heated due to the water. Hmmmm.. that sounds a little confusing but it's the best I can do on these cold medications.
nitrogen's cheap and plentiful, being 79% of air. air has various molecular make ups depending on where you get it from so you can't really predict behaviour at an exact enough level for these guys, so they use nitrogen, being cheap and plentiful and in purified form, so that they can predict with high enough accuracy the pressures etc at given temperatures. oxygen would be flammable, so a big no no unless you want apollo 1 every time PunTiago and Studolfo find their friendly neighborhood K-barrier
nitrogen's not gonna explode even when released into the air, so negative props for JT ;)
also mappy's got the smartest clue yet, but magnesium burns white and bright, never knew of a yellow mag flame, but *shrug* what do i know?
and oh boy is it fun to light up an entire 3 square foot square of mag with a blow torch until the entire block reaches critical temp through the center and BOOM you go blind ;)
SAE geeks get bored on long hot saturday afternoons :p
"nitrogen's not gonna explode even when released into the air, so negative props for JT ;) "
See, my dad was right when he said STAY IN SCHOOL!!!
I saw "nitro", and I read "glycerin", and the rest is well, um, you know. :D
BTW- good catch after us old guys tried too hard to be funny and fumbled. ;)
Originally posted by JT265
"nitrogen's not gonna explode even when released into the air, so negative props for JT ;) "
See, my dad was right when he said STAY IN SCHOOL!!!
I saw "nitro", and I read "glycerin", and the rest is well, um, you know. :D
BTW- good catch after us old guys tried too hard to be funny and fumbled. ;)
pyro!
who the hell ever decided to let you near race fuel?!
:p
RARules
09-29-03, 01:51 AM
Speaking of Nitrogen and Nitroglycerine, some of us may be old enough to have seen film negatives that said "Kodak Safety Film" in the non-image part of the strip. Know why?
Well, film (and billiard balls evidently, too between ivory and the current plastic) was made from *nitro*cellulose in the early days. If you managed to get that kind of film too close to a flame (or maybe a hot projector???), you had a significant problem. I don't even want to think about billiad balls made out of a similar material!
When Kodak came up with a better material, they coined it based on its "safety" attributes.
And TNT stands for Tri-*Nitro*-Toluene.
But you have to add a lot of energy to Nitrogen to form those compounds. Plain old N2 is really quite stable.
Originally posted by Ankf00
pyro!
who the hell ever decided to let you near race fuel?!
:p
HEY! There is a code of honor amongst circus clowns you know! ;)
Originally posted by Ankf00
oxygen would be flammable, so a big no no unless you want apollo 1 every time PunTiago and Rudolfo find their friendly neighborhood K-barrier
Oxygen is a non-flammable gas. Before you start questioning other peoples intelligence, I would make sure your not infallible yourself.
Although magnesium may not burn yellow when it flashes when it does it will also burn other inert material such as the paint, the small particals of the concrete barrier, ect. and that is where you get the yellowish tint.
p.s. Are you trying to be like your idol paper and not use the shift key?
Andrew Longman
09-29-03, 11:06 AM
Let's focus a little.
Air or nitrogen in the tire will not burn. Niether are fuels.
I described a yellowish flame, but since it seems to matter, I can't say for sure it was yellow. But definitely a flash of some sort. I've seen this before.
Did anyone else see it or see it before and was it yellowish?
If it was whiteish, is the consensus that it was magnesium in the wheel burning off from friction with the wall?
1. I never questioned anyone's intelligence. I'd like you to quote where I told anyone off; and I most certainly don't see my tone as condescending in the slightest. The question was posed, people offered their insights, I offered mine. Lay off.
2. I pretty much admitted I don't know much about the magnesium. What more do you want?
3. Oxygen combines with other materials to combust, Nitrogen does not, my point although improperly stated before.
4. Inert materials don't combust.
5. Is this proper enough form for you?
http://microgravity.grc.nasa.gov/fcarchive/combustion/papers/Tien/Solid_Flammability_Boundary.htm
" Of particular interest are the low-speed quenching limits and the existence of the critical oxygen flammability limit. "
For combustion you need a fuel and an oxide. The oxygen acts as the oxide and the other material is the fuel. The oxygen makes the fuel combustible but, the oxygen does not burn. That is why the fuel turns to carbon but the oxygen is still present after the reaction. (carbon monoxide)
The most common example that I can think of is an acetylene torch. It consists of a bottle of oxygen and a bottle of acetylene. If you turn on the oxygen tank only and try and light the torch you will be unsuccessful because oxygen is not flammable. If you turn on the acetylene and light it it will burn but, it will burn with a yellow, relatively cold flame. However, if you then turn on the oxygen and add it to the environment you will get a hot, clean, blue flame because the oxygen will allow for the full combustion of the acetylene and not just a partial burn that is possible from oxidizing with just the available oxygen in the atmosphere.
ya you're right
and no I won't start using ,,,,'s :p
JLMannin
09-30-03, 12:12 PM
When the magnesium hits the wall, some of the phlogiston is released. ;)
Andrew Longman
09-30-03, 01:22 PM
Originally posted by JLMannin
When the magnesium hits the wall, some of the phlogiston is released. ;)
"phlogiston" Wow, you made me look that up.
According to Webster's "A hypothetical substance formally regarded as a volatile constituent of all combustable material and released in combustion as a flame."
Fine line between alchemy and sorcery.
JLMannin
10-01-03, 12:26 PM
The death of the phlogiston theory and the discovery of oxygen is a fasciniting read. The principle proponent of the phlogiston theory was Joeseph Preistly. Most things lose weight when they burn, and this was the basis of the phlogiston theory. Some materials (metals) gained weight when burned - magnesium being one of these. When presented with this data, Priestly modified his theory (or vision, if you will) and created a class of materials that were "phlogiston fixing" - that is, they incorporated phlogiston into their matix and released fire in the process.
Another chemist, Lavosier (not sure of spelling), did not buy the line that both releasing and incorporating phlogiston would result in fire. He proposed a series of experiments in which he captured and weighed the gasses evolved during combustion to demonstrate that the process of combustion always results in a weight gain. Here is the irony - Priestley himself did similar experiments, and Lavosier used Priestly's own data to biuld a rather convincing case that the phlogiston theory was a pile of rubbish. Preistley clung to his beloved phlogiston theory until his death, steadfastly refusing to acknowledge the existence of Lavosier's "fixed air" (what he called the gas that eventually turned out to be oxygen).
Now there are revisionists in the chemistry world that want to posthumously credit the discovery of oxygen to Priestly because he actually conducted the series of controlled experiments first, but chose to ignore his own data and cling to his flawed vision of reality.
I know this is off-topic, but I love talking about the birth of the scientific method and subsequent death of alchemy.
John
watson & crick received their nobel for jacking a female scientist's double helix representation, although the lady didn't know what she had in front of her. They subsequently didn't credit her at all for the original double helix photo, have the story around somewheres, i'll try to find it.
EDwardo
10-01-03, 01:32 PM
Here my 2 cents worth.
picture of a magnesium flame:
http://craneschool.org/faculty/bixler/magnesium.JPG
description of magnesium flames:
http://www.chem.leeds.ac.uk/delights/texts/expt_20.html
It was fun doing a Copernic search and finding out about magnesium!
the magnesium used in wheels is not pure (that would be too soft) - it is an alloy. therefore, if it burned, it wouldn't burn with a white flame.
I'd speculate that what we saw was actually a large spark from the friction between the metal and the concrete, as opposed to a flame from the combustion of metals or gases.
either that, or it was the phlogiston. :gomer:
Andrew Longman
10-01-03, 02:23 PM
Originally posted by JLMannin
The death of the phlogiston theory and the discovery of oxygen is a fasciniting read. The principle proponent of the phlogiston theory was Joeseph Preistly. Most things lose weight when they burn, and this was the basis of the phlogiston theory. Some materials (metals) gained weight when burned - magnesium being one of these. When presented with this data, Priestly modified his theory (or vision, if you will) and created a class of materials that were "phlogiston fixing" - that is, they incorporated phlogiston into their matix and released fire in the process.
Another chemist, Lavosier (not sure of spelling), did not buy the line that both releasing and incorporating phlogiston would result in fire. He proposed a series of experiments in which he captured and weighed the gasses evolved during combustion to demonstrate that the process of combustion always results in a weight gain. Here is the irony - Priestley himself did similar experiments, and Lavosier used Priestly's own data to biuld a rather convincing case that the phlogiston theory was a pile of rubbish. Preistley clung to his beloved phlogiston theory until his death, steadfastly refusing to acknowledge the existence of Lavosier's "fixed air" (what he called the gas that eventually turned out to be oxygen).
Now there are revisionists in the chemistry world that want to posthumously credit the discovery of oxygen to Priestly because he actually conducted the series of controlled experiments first, but chose to ignore his own data and cling to his flawed vision of reality.
I know this is off-topic, but I love talking about the birth of the scientific method and subsequent death of alchemy.
John
Great stuff John. Made my day.
I spent years in college studying philosophy and the history of science and either I forgot this or I never learned it. Either way I love this stuff.
Thanks
Warlock!
10-01-03, 03:06 PM
About the only thing I can add to this topic is the fact that if you soak a tennis ball in gasoline and, using a large pair of channel-locks to hold it, light it on fire, pitch it underhand to a kid holding an aluminum baseball bat, then have that kid knock the bejeezus out of the tennis ball, it looks really, really cool... s'pecially at night.
The residual spray of ignited and non-ignited gasoline from the collision of gas-soaked tennis ball material and aluminum tend to have negative effects on your father's lawn. Let that be known.
Warlock!
Originally posted by Warlock!
About the only thing I can add to this topic is the fact that if you soak a tennis ball in gasoline and, using a large pair of channel-locks to hold it, light it on fire, pitch it underhand to a kid holding an aluminum baseball bat, then have that kid knock the bejeezus out of the tennis ball, it looks really, really cool... s'pecially at night.
The residual spray of ignited and non-ignited gasoline from the collision of gas-soaked tennis ball material and aluminum tend to have negative effects on your father's lawn. Let that be known.
Warlock!
That is a very interesting experement 'Lock. A fellow co-worker of mine (ex bomb disposal US Airborne) filled a garbage bag with aceletene (sp?) with a fuse during a company picnic. Let it go and lit the fuse. Kinda floated about 20 feet in the air and then whump , a big fireball. If he had let it go in the right location it would have lit the Weber....
nz_climber
10-01-03, 03:55 PM
Originally posted by Warlock!
About the only thing I can add to this topic is the fact that if you soak a tennis ball in gasoline and, using a large pair of channel-locks to hold it, light it on fire, pitch it underhand to a kid holding an aluminum baseball bat, then have that kid knock the bejeezus out of the tennis ball, it looks really, really cool... s'pecially at night.
The residual spray of ignited and non-ignited gasoline from the collision of gas-soaked tennis ball material and aluminum tend to have negative effects on your father's lawn. Let that be known.
Warlock!
I remember doing a similar thing in skool :) soak a full roll of toilet paper in petrol or white spirits, then on a then light it, proceed to kick it round until it all burnt out (done at night(like the tennis ball) gives off some cool flames :) )
**DISCLAIMER**
Kids don't try this at home
Be sure you are wearing pants when under taking a task like this ;)
Lizzerd
10-01-03, 06:28 PM
Since we're totally off topic now, this is kinda cool too. Take a big garbage bag, the big green kind, roll it up length wise and and tie four or five or six knots in it. Then, tie one end, using a long string or something, to the ceiling in your garage. Put a bucket of water under it and light the end of the bag. As it burns and flaming bits of the plastic fall of the end into the bucket, it makes a really cool sound, too. We used to call it a zilch back in the high school stoney days.
Originally posted by Warlock!
About the only thing I can add to this topic is the fact that if you soak a tennis ball in gasoline and, using a large pair of channel-locks to hold it, light it on fire, pitch it underhand to a kid holding an aluminum baseball bat, then have that kid knock the bejeezus out of the tennis ball, it looks really, really cool... s'pecially at night.
The residual spray of ignited and non-ignited gasoline from the collision of gas-soaked tennis ball material and aluminum tend to have negative effects on your father's lawn. Let that be known.
Warlock! :laugh: :laugh:
I love this forum. :D
EDwardo
10-01-03, 06:58 PM
I used to entertain myself when I was a kid with pingpong balls and a box of strike anywhere matches. Just punch a small hole in the pingpong ball, break off the heads of enough match heads to stuff it full, then throw it, drop it, or slingshot it. Pretty cool flash and bangs!
Great! Now I can't let my teenager view this forum anymore!! :D
nz_climber
10-01-03, 11:19 PM
Originally posted by cart7
Great! Now I can't let my teenager view this forum anymore!! :D
Thats the reason for my disclaimer, to keep it a family forum :D
Lizzerd
10-01-03, 11:36 PM
Shouldn't this thread be in the Weapons of Mass Destruction Forum?
Originally posted by Lizzerd
Shouldn't this thread be in the Weapons of Mass Destruction Forum?
Would DickC, CondyR, and DRummie make it through the stringent registration process to join that forum? ;)
nz_climber
10-02-03, 03:52 PM
Originally posted by pchall
Would DickC, CondyR, and DRummie make it through the stringent registration process to join that forum? ;)
What about Sadam, Im sure he would have a great post count in that forum ;)
Originally posted by nz_climber
What about Sadam, Im sure he would have a great post count in that forum ;)
Possibly, BUT!!!!!!!!
You'd have to find 'em 1st, wouldn't ya? :D
he actually conducted the series of controlled experiments first, but chose to ignore his own data and cling to his flawed vision of reality. Sounds like TG??
Back when we were kids, we used to take beer cans (real ones, the steel kind) cut the tops and bottoms off (they used to be true cylinders then), duck tape them (duck really is the right term - just learned that) together in a 2.5 foot tube. You leave the bottom on the bottom can intact. Punch a small hole in the side of the bottom can. Add tennis ball, fill with lighter fluid in the punched hole(make a trail with it for a "fuse"). Launch. Bonus points if you soaked the ball with the fluid and were brave enough to drop a match down the tube, while someone else lights the trail. Yes, we would play REAL Hot potato.
Naptha (light fluid) is better than gasoline for this. More sticky and takes longer to scorch the ball.
Andrew Longman
10-03-03, 02:58 PM
G.
Did that many times in friendly competition to shoot flaming tennis ball across the Deleware River. Quite a sight at night and a challange to build bigger and more powerful cannons that didn't blow itself up.
All fun until the cops show up.
KobySon
10-03-03, 03:09 PM
Originally posted by EDwardo
Here my 2 cents worth.
picture of a magnesium flame:
http://craneschool.org/faculty/bixler/magnesium.JPG
huh huh, huh huh - FIRE! FIRE!
Warlock!
10-03-03, 03:30 PM
Originally posted by G.
(duck really is the right term - just learned that)
Hmmmm. I thought it was "duct" tape, as in the tape used to seal the joints of air ducts to prevent leakage. There is a brand of duct tape called "Duck Tape", but I'm pretty sure of myself as far as the name of the grey, 2d reinforced 2" tape.
How was "duck" tape explained to you?
Warlock!
datachicane
10-03-03, 03:40 PM
Tired of getting spitballed by your fellow junior-high students? Escalate the conflict with superior ballistic technology!
This was a study-hall favorite.
Get a book of plain paper matches and a piece of aluminum foil. Tear off a piece of foil about the size of a postage stamp. Lay a straight pin down the length of the match until the tip just touches the head. Carefully and tightly wrap the foil around the top half of the match, forming an exhaust channel around the pin. Remove pin. Repeat until you run out of matches.
In class, bend open a paperclip until it stands up at the proper angle. Lean a previously prepared match against the clip, aiming for your intended target. Hold a lighter under the foil-wrapped head for a second or so. Watch your match-rocket sail across the room leaving a picturesque trail of smoke (spiral if you're lucky) and pop your victim in the head. Adjust trajectory and repeat.
:D
Originally posted by Warlock!
Hmmmm. I thought it was "duct" tape, as in the tape used to seal the joints of air ducts to prevent leakage. There is a brand of duct tape called "Duck Tape", but I'm pretty sure of myself as far as the name of the grey, 2d reinforced 2" tape.
How was "duck" tape explained to you?
Warlock!
from http://www.snopes.com/rumors/ducttape.asp
By the by, although everyone (including us) calls that all-purpose handyman's necessity "duct tape," it is more properly styled "duck tape," which was the original name of the cloth-backed, waterproof adhesive developed for the U.S. Army to keep moisture out of ammunition cases.
There are other sources that I have heard about in the last 6 months or so, just not sure where. Maybe History channel or some military website. Or Mailcall.
Far too many times I have haughtilly corrected people who said "duck". It was NEVER meant to be used for airducts, in fact, can be a little dangerous on heated ducts. It's waterproof, so water rolls off of it like the back of a duck.
Warlock!
10-03-03, 03:53 PM
Originally posted by G.
A good enuf explaination for me
Ya learn sumthin' every day... even if you're tryin' not to! ;)
Warlock!
Originally posted by Warlock!
Ya learn sumthin' every day... even if you're tryin' not to! ;)
Warlock!
Without the winkie icon you'd sound like an EARL fan....
Originally posted by Andrew Longman
G.
Did that many times in friendly competition to shoot flaming tennis ball across the Deleware River. Quite a sight at night and a challange to build bigger and more powerful cannons that didn't blow itself up.
All fun until the cops show up.
No kidding. Nowadaze we got them newfangled potato cannons. Why, back in My day, our toys were MUCH more dangerous. Me a Billy No Nose and One Eyed Jake used to make all sorts of stuff that blewed up real good. And we liked it!
Another cool one on a spit-ball scale was bicycle spokes. Take a spoke, unscrew the adjuster thingy, put it on backwards and screw it part way back on. Not sure why you need to turn it backwards, except that I think it helps with the next step. Take a book of matches, scrape the burny stuff into the adjuster thingy and pack it in. Add a small paper wad into the end. Heat with lighter. That little piece of paper will MOVE outta the tube!
This thread has officially been highjacked!
(and don't let your son be reading this thread, Mr Longman);)
Lizzerd
10-04-03, 03:13 AM
Originally posted by G.
Sounds like TG??
Back when we were kids, we used to take beer cans (real ones, the steel kind) cut the tops and bottoms off (they used to be true cylinders then), duck tape them (duck really is the right term - just learned that) together in a 2.5 foot tube. You leave the bottom on the bottom can intact. Punch a small hole in the side of the bottom can. Add tennis ball, fill with lighter fluid in the punched hole(make a trail with it for a "fuse"). Launch. Bonus points if you soaked the ball with the fluid and were brave enough to drop a match down the tube, while someone else lights the trail. Yes, we would play REAL Hot potato.
Naptha (light fluid) is better than gasoline for this. More sticky and takes longer to scorch the ball.
I've made the exact thing, G. That's back in the day that a can was a can. With the pull tabs that actually came off, or when you needed an opener to drink from it. Yeah, I'm that "old". One difference I did is that on the bottom can, you leave the top intact, too. You squirt the lighter fluid in the hole of the bottom can and drop the tennis ball in from the top. Then, aim and hold the lighter at the small hole punched in the bottom can. Fwwwoooommmmp!
And... I always thought it was duct tape, too.
DjDrOmusic
10-04-03, 07:12 AM
Oh sure, brag about all this intellec...intel...SMART stuff, but can you make a soup spoon stick to your nose??:D :saywhat: :rofl:
Peter Venkman
10-04-03, 01:33 PM
"You too are correct, as it doesn't change density with ambient and tire temp."
Try the ideal gas law (PV=nRT).
P= Pressure
V= Volume
n= moles
T= Temperature
Nitrogen is in there because it doesn't contain water vapor.
All gases increase in temperature when pressure is increased.
Peter Venkman
10-08-03, 09:05 PM
"...pitch it underhand to a kid holding an aluminum baseball bat, then have that kid knock the bejeezus out of the tennis ball, it looks really, really cool... s'pecially at night. "
How do you put the fire out on the kid's face?
We used to catapult a brown paper bag filled with powdered charcoal with a short fused firecracker as the detonator. Very nice show at night as the bag blew open and spread the charcoal dust.
RaceGrrl
10-08-03, 11:03 PM
Originally posted by pchall
We used to catapult a brown paper bag filled with powdered charcoal with a short fused firecracker as the detonator. Very nice show at night as the bag blew open and spread the charcoal dust.
Catapult or trebuchet? :D
Originally posted by RaceGrrl
Catapult or trebuchet? :D
A very large slingshot planted in the ground using braided strips of bicycle inner tube rubber.
Originally posted by RaceGrrl
Catapult or trebuchet? :D
http://www.billfryer.com/dsc/newimages/cat5.jpg
People? They catapult people?
These must be IRL fans who need more back injuries on off weekends.
Originally posted by pchall
People? They catapult people?
Bet we could make this the longest off camber thread ever, if we started listing people who deserve to be shot out of a catapult.
Originally posted by FTG
Bet we could make this the longest off camber thread ever, if we started listing people who deserve to be shot out of a catapult.
May I be the 1st to nominate Toeknee. ;)
Originally posted by JT265
May I be the 1st to nominate Toeknee. ;)
I'd nominate Foyt but we would need to use steel cable to haul his fat ass that high. Then also warn the USGS when he lands.
datachicane
10-09-03, 11:48 AM
Originally posted by pchall
People? They catapult people?
Don't be ridiculous.
Nobody catapults people.
Trebuchets are fair game, though...
:D
RaceGrrl
10-09-03, 12:12 PM
Originally posted by datachicane
Don't be ridiculous.
Nobody catapults people.
Trebuchets are fair game, though...
:D
Trebuchets are meant to fling livestock.
devilmaster
10-09-03, 12:13 PM
Originally posted by pchall
A very large slingshot planted in the ground using braided strips of bicycle inner tube rubber.
I was always a Coyote and Road Runner fan too. :thumbup:
;)
Steve
Originally posted by devilmaster
I was always a Coyote and Road Runner fan too. :thumbup:
;)
Steve
If you had been the pack of kids I ran with I bet we would have put the football helmet on you and tried for the first Canuck In Orbit.
RaceGrrl
10-09-03, 12:21 PM
Sounds like the game Kyle plays with his Canuckdian adopted little brother, Ike. "Kick the baby" ("don't kick the baby!")
South Park reference for those who don't get it.
devilmaster
10-09-03, 12:22 PM
Originally posted by pchall
If you had been the pack of kids I ran with I bet we would have put the football helmet on you and tried for the first Canuck In Orbit.
See? thats the problem these days. People today would say that's unsafe, and try and protect you from yourself.
I mean, it didn't affect you none...... ummm...... hmmm.........
nevermind.
Steve
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