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Racewriter
09-22-03, 02:14 PM
Overnight for the IRL, according to motorsportstv.com.

Treeface
09-22-03, 02:17 PM
"It was the lowest-rated sporting event of the weekend, with the 1.3 turned in by the Women's World Cup as the next event in line."

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

RichK
09-22-03, 02:19 PM
I finally agree that the tide is turning for the IRL! ;)

mapguy
09-22-03, 02:21 PM
Originally posted by RichK
I finally agree that the tide is turning for the IRL! ;)

More like a rip-tide.

Turn7
09-22-03, 02:21 PM
Is that a good rating or a bad one for the IRL?

DaveL
09-22-03, 02:31 PM
The growth continues!

cart7
09-22-03, 02:33 PM
Actually, the growth appears to be in remission. Thanks Dr. Tony.

FRANKY
09-22-03, 02:38 PM
Originally posted by Racewriter
Overnight for the IRL, according to motorsportstv.com.

On network TV no less. Pretty bad, pretty sad.

Racewriter
09-22-03, 02:41 PM
Originally posted by Turn7
Is that a good rating or a bad one for the IRL?

Anymore, it's so hard to tell...

The record low rating for a network IRL race is 0.7, initially set at Pike's Peak 1999, and tied twice this year (PPIR and one other race).

It's been a rare IRL race that didn't lose at least a tenth on the finals, and I believe that this is the lowest overnight ever. So, it's very possible that the final comes in at .5 or .6, for a new record low.

Which may be itself bested (worsted?) by the end of the year.

That's LemmingGrowth for ya.

Eagle104
09-22-03, 02:49 PM
imagine what the overnites could have been without the relatively high lead-in numbers. :eek: :laugh:

Racewriter
09-22-03, 03:00 PM
Originally posted by Eagle104
imagine what the overnites could have been without the relatively high lead-in numbers. :eek: :laugh:

Actually, based on the spin, the IRL needs to shuffle its schedule to avoid the following things:

NASCAR, football, awards shows, beauty pageants, Sundays, baseball, golf (with Tiger), tennis (with Anna), any other nearby motorsports event, blah, blah, blah...

Look for the 2005 schedule to be revolutionary. All races on ABC, live, flag to flag, with no commercial interruptions.

Timeslot - 3 to 6 AM Eastern.

Eagle104
09-22-03, 03:05 PM
and don't forget the magic that changing the traditional start time for the 500 will provide.........

KLang
09-22-03, 03:18 PM
Timeslot - 3 to 6 AM Eastern.

Nah, there are infomercials on then. :D

JT265
09-22-03, 03:41 PM
I think all you guys are just mean. :(

None of you guys understand what the 500 means.

How many in the stands? 500

How many watched at home? 500

How many posts at Gooberforum
denouncing JJ Yeley as a
traitor? 500

How many opportunities for
deserving American
short trackers are offered
yearly with the creation
of the IRL? 500

How many revisions of the
original vision are we now
hearing? 500

See, the answer is, it's all in the numbers. ;)

cart7
09-22-03, 03:42 PM
Originally posted by Type-S
Nah, there are infomercials on then. :D

And "Girls Gone Wild" videos, they won't stand a chance. :laugh:

Turn7
09-22-03, 03:46 PM
I read that the race was the "fastest" oval race. Average speed was 207 or something.

With ratings like that, I suppose that ABC told them to "Hurry up and get off the air, your killing our weeklies." Hence no magic debris yellows to bunch up the field.

Racewriter
09-22-03, 03:46 PM
Originally posted by JT265
How many posts at Gooberforum
denouncing JJ Yeley as a
traitor? 500



You forgot one, JT:

In three years, after Yeley is a NASCAR star, how many of the same Hulmanistas will start "JJ, come home to Indy" threads? 500

JLMannin
09-22-03, 04:05 PM
When the rate of decline of the ratings is less than the rate of increase in the total number of cable channels, the IRL spin-doctors, will herald this as phemoninal growth.

They will claim that the ratings decline from 1996 to 20XX was purely the result of dilution of the total number of channels available to watch.

Pathetic.

Jonezzy_33
09-22-03, 04:59 PM
Wow, its a good thing Tony stepped in, we wouldn't want NASCAR type ratings or attendance...ya know? :saywhat: :shakehead:


Can I add FTG?

Racewriter
09-22-03, 05:00 PM
Borrowed from Speednet:

Homestead (ABC) 1.5 => 1.8 UP 20%
Phoenix (ABC) 1.2 => .9 DOWN 25%
Indy (ABC) 4.8 => 4.6 DOWN 5%
Texas (ESPN) .6 => .4 DOWN 33%
Pike's Peak (ABC) 1.0 => .7 DOWN 30%
Richmond (ESPN) .6 => .48 DOWN 20%
Kansas (ABC) 1.2 => 1.3 UP 8%
Nashville (ESPN2) .5 => .3 DOWN 40%
Michigan (ABC) 1.2 => 1.0 DOWN 17%
Gateway (ABC) .8 => .7 DOWN 12.5%
Kentucky (ABC) .9 => .8 DOWN 12%
Nazareth (ABC) 1.3 => .6 DOWN 54%
Chicagoland (ABC) 1.1 => .8 DOWN 28%
Fontana (ESPN) .5 =>

JT265
09-22-03, 05:14 PM
Wow, Nashville scored a .3 and they sneer at Speedchannel?

DaveL
09-22-03, 05:15 PM
The average rating sans Indy is 0.8. 6 network races scored less than 1.0.

Way to go Tony. You sure showed CART how to market a series with Indy as the centerpiece.

Dr. Corkski
09-22-03, 05:19 PM
Originally posted by Turn7
I read that the race was the "fastest" oval race. Average speed was 207 or something.Maybe it was so fast that nobody saw it.

racer2c
09-22-03, 05:22 PM
Tony George: "Mikey promised that the CART fans would follow him over here! Grrrrr." :mad:

Treeface
09-22-03, 06:18 PM
Lookin' good! :thumbup:

DaveL
09-22-03, 09:19 PM
I watched about 3 laps of the race yesterday after I remembered it was even on.

I sat there watching a bunch of underpowered glued to the track foot to the floor cars and thinking, "My God is this boring!", and then went back to football.

Hey Racewriter, can you think of any more catagories of fans left for Idiotgrandson to alienate?

Racewriter
09-22-03, 10:46 PM
Originally posted by DaveL
Hey Racewriter, can you think of any more catagories of fans left for Idiotgrandson to alienate?

Honestly, I think they're almost out. The only ones would be the dedicated Tony worshippers, and I can't imagine how he could alienate them.

Napoleon
09-23-03, 05:53 AM
There was an IRL race on this weekend? I didn't even know until I checked this board sunday night.

Sean O'Gorman
09-23-03, 11:57 AM
Originally posted by Napoleon
There was an IRL race on this weekend? I didn't even know until I checked this board sunday night.

Same here. My dad asked me if there was an IRL race and I said "no idea." Indy, Texas, and maybe 20 laps of Phoenix were all I've watched so far this year.

DaveL
09-23-03, 12:00 PM
The Cult of Personality around Idiotgrandson is an interesting phenomenon. I've tried to formulate a decent hypothesis to explain it, but I haven't yet. If anyone has a serious idea please share it.

JLMannin
09-23-03, 12:08 PM
Originally posted by Racewriter
Honestly, I think they're almost out. The only ones would be the dedicated Tony worshippers, and I can't imagine how he could alienate them.

He could reconfigure IMS as a true oval with +20 degree banking. That should do it.

Racewriter
09-23-03, 12:32 PM
Originally posted by DaveL
The Cult of Personality around Idiotgrandson is an interesting phenomenon. I've tried to formulate a decent hypothesis to explain it, but I haven't yet. If anyone has a serious idea please share it.

I don't have a clue. A couple of years ago, I spent 20 minutes talking to him one-on-one at the PRI show, and frankly, I never identified a personality. I think the big thing is the high regard Tony Hulman was held in, and the idea that Toney is the heir to the throne, so to speak.

A more remarkable phenomenon is how the Cult of Personality is now extended to Brian Barnhart, who is revered as an official despite evidence that he's not that good or fair at all.

JoeBob
09-23-03, 12:41 PM
I think the Barnhart thing happened because he came in about the time Bob Reif went out. Brian took over Reif's job as chief talking head.

calculus_entropy
09-23-03, 12:48 PM
Originally posted by Racewriter
Borrowed from Speednet:

Homestead (ABC) 1.5 => 1.8 UP 20%
Phoenix (ABC) 1.2 => .9 DOWN 25%
Indy (ABC) 4.8 => 4.6 DOWN 5%
Texas (ESPN) .6 => .4 DOWN 33%
Pike's Peak (ABC) 1.0 => .7 DOWN 30%
Richmond (ESPN) .6 => .48 DOWN 20%
Kansas (ABC) 1.2 => 1.3 UP 8%
Nashville (ESPN2) .5 => .3 DOWN 40%
Michigan (ABC) 1.2 => 1.0 DOWN 17%
Gateway (ABC) .8 => .7 DOWN 12.5%
Kentucky (ABC) .9 => .8 DOWN 12%
Nazareth (ABC) 1.3 => .6 DOWN 54%
Chicagoland (ABC) 1.1 => .8 DOWN 28%
Fontana (ESPN) .5 =>

I have yet to see Hooter address these numbers while maintaining the IRL is growing steadily.... Oh wait, it's all ABC's fault. Nothing wrong with the product.

RichK
09-23-03, 12:51 PM
Originally posted by DaveL
The Cult of Personality around Idiotgrandson is an interesting phenomenon. I've tried to formulate a decent hypothesis to explain it, but I haven't yet. If anyone has a serious idea please share it.

I don't think it's Toney at all, it's just the cult of the Speedway. You could put a monkey in charge of the place, and these folks would be posting on BananaForum all day.

Chief
09-23-03, 12:52 PM
Originally posted by DaveL
Way to go Tony. You sure showed CART how to market a series with Indy as the centerpiece.

Very true. Those not old enough to know need to brush up on their history and reflect back on the sacrifices that were made to make this all come to fruition. It was deemed a failure then and it will always be a failure. TG indeed has destroyed open wheel racing, that is his legacy.

Lizzerd
09-23-03, 03:08 PM
Originally posted by RichK
I don't think it's Toney at all, it's just the cult of the Speedway. You could put a monkey in charge of the place, and these folks would be posting on BananaForum all day.

That's funny, RickK. And oh so true.

Racewriter
09-23-03, 05:35 PM
Some interesting calculations from the IRL's TV audiences, using the first 13 races of 2002 vs. 2003 as our sample, and with the figure of 1 network rating point = 1.06M households, and 1 cable point = 800,000 households:

2002 YTD viewership: 17.26 million HH
2003 YTD viewership: 14.95 million HH

That represents a 15% year-to-year decline in YTD viewership, and a loss of 2.31 million households - think they can get that back in the last three races?:rolleyes: Heck, at this point, they may not get 2.3M viewers total for the last three races.

Now, if you want to really have some fun, look under the 'archive' section at bjwor.com, and pull up the 1997 ratings and attendance. This will show how far the IRL has fallen in ratings, even measured against itself (and not against pre-split levels). First of all, a note:

The 1997 Indy 500 ratings had to be averaged, since the running was split over three days due to weather. The average rating was 5.3.

The 1997 IRL season featured eight races, which garnered a total of 14.9 million viewers - that's only slightly less than the 13 races this year have snagged! Further, the 1997 average viewers per race (Indy included) was 1.87M, against this year's 1.15M - a decline of 39% in viewers per race.

Breaking Indy out, the remaining 1997 races averaged 1.33M, against 2003's 840,000 - for a decline of 37%. Indy itself fell from 5.6M viewers to 4.9M, declining 13%.

IRL ratings held fairly solid from 1996-1998, and dropped precipitously in 1999 and 2000. 2003 is now its lowest point.

RacinM3
09-23-03, 05:49 PM
Ha! And looking at the numbers above you non-believers have the nerve to question TG's judgement?!?!

JT forgot this one too: Years required to repair the damage done to American OW racing: 500

eiregosod
09-23-03, 09:37 PM
Originally posted by Racewriter

IRL ratings held fairly solid from 1996-1998, and dropped precipitously in 1999 and 2000. 2003 is now its lowest point.

Something happened in 1998 for both series, CART's attendance started to decline that year (Michigan being the first track I can pin point a decline) then Homestead 1999 had a big drop in attendance from 1998.

though IRL attendance in the early years was dismal

JT265
09-23-03, 10:24 PM
Originally posted by RacinM3
Ha! And looking at the numbers above you non-believers have the nerve to question TG's judgement?!?!

JT forgot this one too: Years required to repair the damage done to American OW racing: 500

I forgot one other too, RM3.

# of hits off of an adequately filled jumbobong: 497.5 :D

cart7
09-24-03, 06:18 AM
Originally posted by eiregosod
Something happened in 1998 for both series, CART's attendance started to decline that year (Michigan being the first track I can pin point a decline) then Homestead 1999 had a big drop in attendance from 1998.

though IRL attendance in the early years was dismal

I would say you're correct here. It was the 98-99 span where things went down the tubes. Maybe casual OW fans felt 3 seasons was enough for this split thing, got tired of it and bugged out to where ever they bugged out to. But whatever, the 1999 season was the initial season that most of the ovals began to see a serious increase in bare aluminum on raceday.

Treeface
09-24-03, 08:52 AM
Penske sold out to NASCAR.

I know there is a train of thought that if there were one series all would be OK but I don't find much commonality between what ails CART and the IRL.

RaceChic
09-24-03, 09:16 AM
Originally posted by DaveL
The Cult of Personality around Idiotgrandson is an interesting phenomenon. I've tried to formulate a decent hypothesis to explain it, but I haven't yet. If anyone has a serious idea please share it.

When a vision doesn't work, just recreate the vision into a revision of the vision and then you will just have a brand new vision. Nobody will ever know the difference.

Best I can do, DaveL.
:D

JoeBob
09-24-03, 09:59 AM
Originally posted by cart7
I would say you're correct here. It was the 98-99 span where things went down the tubes. Maybe casual OW fans felt 3 seasons was enough for this split thing, got tired of it and bugged out to where ever they bugged out to. But whatever, the 1999 season was the initial season that most of the ovals began to see a serious increase in bare aluminum on raceday.

1998-1999 was the beginning of the breakdown of the distinction between the two series. You had Al Unser, Jr. leave CART for the IRL, as well as Ganassi heading to Indy for the 500.

That blurring of the line between the series made things a lot more difficult to follow.

Treeface
09-24-03, 11:16 AM
Penske and ISC announced the buyout in May of '99. Forget Al jr, Fat Bastard and the CART vs.IRL BS. Selling out the tracks to NASCAR was the kill shot.

FRANKY
09-24-03, 11:28 AM
Originally posted by Treeface
Penske and ISC announced the buyout in May of '99. Forget Al jr, Fat Bastard and the CART vs.IRL BS. Selling out the tracks to NASCAR was the kill shot.

Doubtful. They were all CART races at Penske tracks.

However Al Jr. was the only real star, George probably thought getting him along with teams crossing the line would make a difference.

The goal should have been to give up NOTHING. No driver, no track, no Memorial Day race.

RichK
09-24-03, 11:33 AM
Originally posted by FRANKY


The goal should have been to give up NOTHING. No driver, no track, no Memorial Day race.

That would've been good. It would also have been nice if Ford didn't supply engines to the IRL initially.....talk about irony!

Hot Rod Otis
09-24-03, 12:05 PM
Originally posted by JoeBob
1998-1999 was the beginning of the breakdown of the distinction between the two series. You had Al Unser, Jr. leave CART for the IRL, as well as Ganassi heading to Indy for the 500.

That blurring of the line between the series made things a lot more difficult to follow.

Actually, the Chipster & Opie headed back to Marion County in 2000. Robby Gordon was the 1st CART guy who dipped his feet back in the Indy pool in 1999.

Actually IMO, I think what caused the serious erosion of fan/sponsor/mfg/TV interest to begin in the 98-99 time frame was the failed merger talks in the summer of 1998. I remember back then and a lot of people thought for sure that the 2 sides were gonna get back together and that the madness would end. But when the grandson said, "never mind" (IMO, he NEVER had ANY intention of merging, he was jerking everybodys chains) and didn't even bother showing up, that signalled to a lot of people that this wasn't gonna end anytime soon and this was gonna be a fight to the bitter end. And that was the signal to a LOT of fans to bail out. Sure the diehard forum jockeys like us (I think we're the lunatic fringe of the sport anyway) just hunkered down a little deeper and increased our post counts, but a large portion of OPW fans, who BTW have never posted on an internet BB, who weren't as hardcore as us said "The h3ll with you guys, a pox on BOTH your houses" and split.

And I think the longer this goes on, the more and more people say the heck with this and move on. I'm one of those people. I honsestly don't care anymore. Neither series interest me anymore. Buyouts? Motorock? OWRS? Don't care anymore, that whay I haven't bee around. Had this insanity been ended in 1998, a lot of the carnage and loss of fanbase, sponsors, mfgs, tv audience probably could have been avoided. Back in 98 you had 6 engine mfgs and 7 chassis constructors involved in US OPW racing. Both sides had larger TV audiences on there own than both series have COMBINED today. Indy's TV rating hadn't TOTALLY tanked. Back then the sport was still healthy enough that the wounds inflicted by the split, 25/8, the US500 would have probably healed quickly. But when Anton said f#*k off to CART in 98, thats what IMO sent OPW racing into its downward spiral from which I'm doubtful it will ever be able to recover from.

Just my humble opinion, I could be wrong and of course, your opinions may vary.

RichK
09-24-03, 12:10 PM
HRO, good to see you around! I agree with every word you just wrote.

DaveL
09-24-03, 12:48 PM
I agree 100% Otis. Well said. :thumbup:

Chitowncartfreak
09-24-03, 12:53 PM
Originally posted by DaveL
I agree 100% Otis. Well said. :thumbup:

Agree 100%. Good insights there, Otis.

rabbit
09-24-03, 01:06 PM
Great post Otis, and spot on. :thumbup:

As an aside, that's what I love about OffCamber. There might not be a page full of new threads everyday, but the quality of the posts is tremendous.

cart7
09-24-03, 01:06 PM
You're on it HOR. :thumbup:

FRANKY
09-24-03, 01:09 PM
Originally posted by Hot Rod Otis
Actually, the Chipster & Opie headed back to Marion County in 2000. Robby Gordon was the 1st CART guy who dipped his feet back in the Indy pool in 1999.

Actually IMO, I think what caused the serious erosion of fan/sponsor/mfg/TV interest to begin in the 98-99 time frame was the failed merger talks in the summer of 1998.

HotRod I believe talks ended in 1999. (http://www.lasvegassun.com/sunbin/stories/rac-500/1999/sep/27/509356443.html)

I think 2000 was the year things went down hill quickly.


1. Ganassi crosses the line, dominates!

2. Craig fired!

3. Interim CEO Rahal leaves May 2001 open for CART to run at Indy, adds Texas for 2001!

4. Heitzler hired! (enough said)

5. Al Jr. to TG's league.

6. CART leaves Homestead/Gateway helping TG's league grow!

2001 was just more of the same. {For what it's worth stock peaked mid 99' at $35.00 a share, dropped to $20 in the fall. }

Racewriter
09-24-03, 02:09 PM
Originally posted by JoeBob
1998-1999 was the beginning of the breakdown of the distinction between the two series. You had Al Unser, Jr. leave CART for the IRL, as well as Ganassi heading to Indy for the 500.

That blurring of the line between the series made things a lot more difficult to follow.

You're forgetting one big thing, JB, from the IRL fans' side of the fence. Tony Stewart's fulltime IRL career ended after the 1998 season. Laugh if you want, but TS was THE dominant story of each and every IRL race, as long as the Menardmobile held up. He's still the #2 lap leader in IRL history, as Sam only passed him up this year - in quite a few more races.

Speaking as an original IRL fan, the loss of Stewart - and the realization that the IRL wasn't going to cultivate any more like him - is a contributing factor to the IRL's loss of following.

DaveL
09-24-03, 02:43 PM
Originally posted by Racewriter

Speaking as an original IRL fan, the loss of Stewart - and the realization that the IRL wasn't going to cultivate any more like him - is a contributing factor to the IRL's loss of following.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the realization was the circa 1995-96 rhetoric was just that, rhetoric. It was merely an attempt to try to suck in fans such as yourself who did not like CART (to each his own, that is your right) and convince you that the IRL was going to do things differently. But once the rhetoric is exposed for what it is, that's it, the IRL lost you. Credibility is one thing that once lost is never regained. You saw that the Emperor had no clothes and Tony's interest in getting sprint car drivers to Indy was as great as Madonna's interest in celebacy.

In the meantime, while the IRL was doing its best to alienate fans such as yourself, CART was hard at work giving us CARTisans daily doses of awful, will be around next year news. Basically nothing good has happened to CART since the Split and that has driven away fans at our end.

Add it all up and you have two weak series teetering on the brink and a sport that gets half the viewers as women's soccer.

Hot Rod Otis
09-24-03, 02:52 PM
Originally posted by FRANKY
HotRod I believe talks ended in 1999. (http://www.lasvegassun.com/sunbin/stories/rac-500/1999/sep/27/509356443.html)


DOH!!!!:o I drag my sorry @ss out of mothballs and I get the frigging date wrong:mad: Never mind.:rolleyes:

eiregosod
09-24-03, 03:17 PM
all the arguments TG used to stop the re-unification in 1999 , mainly was to do with sealed engines and engine leases, are the same rules he allows in the IRL today! TG announced it live on air during an EARL broadcast. At that time he already made ABC pick up the IRL in order to televise the Indy 500 (I have read on the forums that ABC thought that both series would re-unite)

When CART raced at Michigan in 1999, it was clear the attendance had fallen a lot from 1998, the following day ISC took control of management of Penske's tracks, I knew CART HAD to deliver on fans, having Penske in our corner gave us some form of stability. (I wonder when michigan expanded in seating capacity that the number of fans available to watch a CART race dropped as the NASCAr attendance increased)

My take is that we lost half the fans, 1 million of us packed our bags to Nascarville, for the rest of us we were treated to twice the number of races. Double the events but half the fans!

For me to be thinking in 1998 that how can CART keep up with NASCAR? Keep the fans/ sell out races, within a few years to be thinking how can we keep ourselves ahead of the IRL!

FRANKY
09-24-03, 03:20 PM
Originally posted by Hot Rod Otis
DOH!!!!:o I drag my sorry @ss out of mothballs and I get the frigging date wrong:mad: Never mind.:rolleyes:

Mothballs so that's what I smell. :D

I agree wholeheartedly with your post. It set the stage for 2000. Whether TG was yanking CART's chain or not is a guess. One would hope that details would have surfaced to see how close close was.

I only remembered it was 99' because Moore passed away shortly after. Just felt like the walls were falling in. :(

rabbit
09-24-03, 03:27 PM
It's hard to guage the impact of it, but 1998 was also the year of the MIS and Charlotte spectator tragedies. :( Not a good year PR-wise.

cart7
09-24-03, 03:34 PM
From the latest RACER, Nov issue. This is getting some interesting play at TF.

TG:

"I continue to believe-as others believe-that open wheel racing would benefit from there being one series. I think it would be a win-win for everyone if somehow one series came from two. We're all connected in some way-CART teams, IRL teams. It boils down to two business entities that have chosen to go different paths. One is public; one is private. It's put added pressure on open wheel racing becoming one again. Something may change that will allow that to happen, but right now CART has to continue the way it's going because it's a public enterprise. We have to continue the way we're going because it's a private enterprise. The challenge is how to end up with one series that promotes oval and road racing in the open wheel category."


"The series today is absolutely consistent with what I had envisioned and what we have tried to build. The public or the media's perception through the years wasn't always what we were trying to accomplish. A lot of people were saying that I started this for grass roots racing and that it was supposed to be an all-American series. That was never the case. That was a perception that came from individuals and the media. Maybe we're at fault for not having the ability to convey our own message well enough. We've become better at that through the years, but for the first five or six years, we were not good at communicating our message."


"It's not good to see a racetrack go broke; it's not good to see a racing organization go under. Those things aren't good; they're not positive, but sometimes they happen. I think we can be successful and they can be successful, but I just don't think that open wheel racing will enjoy the complete, total success that might be possible if there were one series."


Yes Tony, it's become much clearer as to your real intentions. :gomer:

eiregosod
09-24-03, 03:40 PM
"we were not good at communicating our message"

Says it all!

Public Vs private, where there's a will there's a way!

eiregosod
09-24-03, 03:45 PM
Originally posted by rabbit
It's hard to guage the impact of it, but 1998 was also the year of the MIS and Charlotte spectator tragedies. :( Not a good year PR-wise.

That is very true :(

DaveL
09-24-03, 04:46 PM
What makes Idiotgrandson's statements so outragous and insulting to our collective intellegence is that Agajanian, Long, and Mehl were the ones making the statements about the "grass roots", and American drivers...to say nothing of what was published in literature (race programs etc) by the IRL!

Tony must think we are either incredibly stupid or have very short memories.

Racewriter
09-24-03, 04:56 PM
Originally posted by DaveL
What makes Idiotgrandson's statements so outragous and insulting to our collective intellegence is that Agajanian, Long, and Mehl were the ones making the statements about the "grass roots", and American drivers...to say nothing of what was published in literature (race programs etc) by the IRL!

Tony must think we are either incredibly stupid or have very short memories.

The Grandson said it too. I'll post a choice tidbit this evening.

eiregosod
09-24-03, 05:01 PM
i recall an interview he gave british TV before the 1997 indy 500:

.) oval cars are cheaper
.) investment in ovals, cart not racing on them he said that that there was one in STL & Texas that was being built , i recall the day before the 1997 Indy 500 that CARt raced at St louis!
.) nothing wrong with street circuits, but owr needed to embrace more ovals

Chaos
09-24-03, 05:02 PM
Also post it on TF...they are looking for proof of what was said.

JoeBob
09-24-03, 05:19 PM
I'm not RW, and I haven't been to TF in a bit, but I'll try to post this there later, if I can find the appropriate thread:

http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&selm=42sgig%24alo%40rob.inetdirect.net&rnum=1

IRL Newsletter, Volume 1 Number 1

VIEWPOINT by Jack Long
Keeping the door open to Indianapolis

(Jack Long was named executive director and chief administrator of the
Indy Racing League in January, 1995. His background includes more than
20 years in marketing and event management in Indianapolis car and
Formula One racing.)

This first issue of the Indy Racing League Newsletter provides me
this opportunity to lay out the philosophy of the IRL -- briefly, of
course. And it offers the avenue for telling the IRL story, politics
and prejudices aside.

Basically, the IRL was founded to improve the sport of American open
wheel, open cockpit car racing, not to damage it. Stability and long
term growth are the objectives.

More specifically, the reason for the IRL is to establish an
environment that will (1) return oval-track racing at this level to
its heritage and (2) lower the cost of entry for teams and drivers of
the future.

Indianapolis car racing is going through an important transition at
this time. Many of its famous names and stars have left the sport in
recent years. This has happened before. And through these
transitions the sport has always continued to thrive and flourish.
New stars are born, as is the case now.

However, what also is occurring are two other trends:
1. An imbalance -- a preponderance of road and street circuit events
over oval races, a ratio nearly 2-to-1.

2. A lack of cost control -- making Indy car racing a sport leaning
toward exclusivity.

On point No. 1, understandably the champion will come from a
background of road racing. That makes sense -- car owners are
pursuing championships and turn to drivers with road racing
experience to get there. Indianapolis car racing, on the other hand,
was created near the turn of the century as oval track competition.
That's the heritage and that's what the Indianapolis 500 is all
about. The concern here is that the door is shutting for American
oval track aspirants and with it, that goal of getting to the
Indianapolis Motor Speedway.

The IRL was not conceived to eliminate foreign drivers or road racers
from Indianapolis. Skilled drivers can compete on any kind of track
-- names like Hill, Clark, Foyt, Stewart, Andretti, Unser, Jones,
Fittipaldi, Gurney come to mind. An IRL reason to exist is to create
opportunity for new and even established teams to get that chance.

On point No. 2, in Indy car racing today, engine package costs have
reached a disproportionate level compared to the rest of technology.
Car design has never been better -- fast, sleek, safe -- and with
costs that are high but certainly what teams can live with.

This is not to propose that Indy racing should be "cheapened". Major
League sports are expensive, not cheap. While technology demands
investment, Indy racing costs today are approaching Formula One
budgets. The IRL seeks more fiscal responsibility.

To that end, IRL is reaching to American and foreign manufacturers of
passenger automobiles -- and to their leading edge technology -- to
provide, in the near future, production based racing engines, adapted
from what will be familiar on our highways in the coming century.

Indianapolis has always been a tool for manufacturers in the high
tech development of their products. Hence, an IRL objective is to
reestablish the relationship of the Indy series and car companies and
again become partners in the developing that technology.

We think these are honorable and realistic objectives -- the return
of Indy racing to ovals and the return of car companies along with
lower costs and greater opportunities to teams and drivers.

DaveL
09-24-03, 07:10 PM
There's a lot jucier stuff than that, JoeBob. RW doesn't have smoking gun quotes, he has an artillary batallian worth of them.

devilmaster
09-24-03, 07:43 PM
Originally posted by cart7
...but I just don't think that open wheel racing will enjoy the complete, total success that might be possible if there were one series."


[RANT ON] You stupid MudderF'er. There was one series! ONE! In 1995 it was called the CART PPG IndyCar World Series. AND IT WORKED!!!!
Great events! Sold out tracks! Instead of trying to make it better for all by working together, you decided you wanted to be in charge of it! You were the cause of 2 series! YES, YOU WERE! Open Wheel could still be having the complete and total success it was having in the early and mid 90's!!!

G DAMN HYPOCRITE! That's what ya are Tony! Remember, if you're track isn't making as much money on the Indy 500 as you used to, its because YOU screwed up! Its that simple!!! Kiss Bill France's ass some more, cause if he didn't want to go to Indy, you'd be losing a tonne more money! You haven't shown any ability to be a good business man! You whored out the tradition of the Indy to anyone willing to give you money, and in the end, you've wrecked the tradition, to a place where it will probably never recover.

As a fan who fell in love with CART because I started watching the Indy 500, let me just offer my humble opinion, that you are a complete, Grade A, F...ing MORON! You were the catalyst for all that is wrong in Open Wheel in this country!

G.. Damn I really really hate this G.. Damn *****ing Mudder F...... F.....

[RANT OFF]
Steve

Lizzerd
09-24-03, 08:25 PM
The post above should be required reading for all lemmings.

Chief
09-24-03, 08:37 PM
Indy Racing League - Newsletter Vol 1 Num 2 - September 1, 1995


VIEWPOINT by Jack Long
IRL remains true to Indy roots. The IRL was created to restore the prominence of oval track competition.

Why is a second Indianapolis car series necessary?

"It shouldn't be" is my answer to that oft-asked question. Then, of course, "Why?"

It's a matter of roots. In recent years the sport of open wheel racing at this level in America has taken a dramatic turn away from its heritage.

There has become a weakening of "permanence" in the foundation of Indy car competition, most obvious by its shift from its oval track base to an imbalance of road and street racing. And that is our concern. The road course trend for Indianapolis type racing has led to may temporary circuits that are very costly to set up and just as costly, within a few days, to tear down--investments that fail to build equity in racing.

This is fleeting economics that has hardly produced a picture of stability or long-term growth. Hence, the emergence of the Indy Racing League, which blends heritage and a fresh concept for establishing roots in new markets under a realistic cost formula that doesn't have to be renewed each year.

Circuits that are recreated each year must be considered vulnerable...or transient. They can go away at any time. The IRL will be launched in 1996 on a brand new track that is cost efficient, permanent and located within America's most famous recreation destination - - Walt Disney World in Orlando, Fla. The only temporary aspects of this new raceway will be the portable grandstands and support facilities.

The one-mile track surface, pit lane, the surrounding retaining structures and walls, all of which will be completed in October and ready for testing by November, are the components of a racing complex that will remain available year-round for testing or multiple usage without closing city streets or airport runways. The art of erecting temporary grandstands, luxury suites and other support structures has reached a point of sophistication that is major league in quality.

These facilities can be tailored to specific events, are quickly assembled and are cost efficient.

Importantly, it is the track that is the permanent fixture. The Orlando track is the first tangible illustration of a concept that can bring Indianapolis car racing to major marketplaces at an initial capital investment of $5-6 million. With that expansion formula for the future, the IRL can sink lasting roots for Indianapolis car racing in many important venues throughout the country -- building upon the 1996 foundation of Orlando, Phoenix International Raceway, the Indianapolis Motor Speedway, New Hampshire International Speedway and Las Vegas Motor Speedway.

The IRL was created to restore the prominence of oval track competition and to assure there is a balanced opportunity in the future for drivers and teams to compete in the league's premiere event, the Indianapolis 500. The IRL is not, as some have charged, a power move to gain sole control of the sport at the exclusion of road course racing.

To accomplish the real motive behind the IRL -- preserving at the very highest level the century-old American tradition of oval track racing and the true heritage of the Indy 500 -- a second series became necessary.

From this perspective then, there is room for both.

Jonezzy_33
09-24-03, 08:44 PM
Right on Devilmaster! I agree with everything you said there.


Me personally, I honestly feel that at the rate OW was in 1995, we'd be battling NASCAR bigtime and they would be nowhere near as popular as they are right now.

JT265
09-24-03, 08:54 PM
so, to be clear, should I put you down as being opposed to the grandson Steve? :D

Seriously, I think Otis stuffed it outta the park. And I agree that Steve's rant should be required reading.

I also agree with Otis about the hardcore stuff too. Prior to '94, I would attend at least 20-25 baseball games a season, watch everything I could on TV, and bore you to bits with the stats of every pitcher in both leagues.

I literally haven't been back since the '94 tantrum, couldn't tell you who is leading the standings or could care less. But I do spend a lot of time watching the little league guys.

Strange? Hell, I don't know.

Racewriter
09-24-03, 09:56 PM
Originally posted by DaveL
There's a lot jucier stuff than that, JoeBob. RW doesn't have smoking gun quotes, he has an artillary batallian worth of them.

Well, here's a starter, Dave:

http://www.usgpindy.com/press/1999/tg-030799.html

TG: Most definitely. I have been pursuing this ever since it was learned that the Grand Prix would not be returning to Phoenix. Since the early 1990s, I've been having conversations with Mr. Ecclestone ... even before we seriously considered having a stock-car race. I always wanted to see Indy-car racing in America develop along a certain path, and obviously our differences in philosophy with CART are well known. I?m not xenophobic. I enjoy the international flavor that the Indianapolis 500 has always enjoyed. I also wanted to see the opportunity develop for our young drivers growing up in the oval discipline. But I've always been a big believer in keeping the Indianapolis Motor Speedway attainable.

That is from the USGP website, in an interview with the Grandson hisself. Obviously, it's a complete contradiction to the latest pie-hole spew. I've posted it on TF, along with IRL newsletters, Leo Mehl/Jack Long/Cary Agajanian quotes, and it's pointless. They respond with one of the following:

1. Tony was wise enough to see that his original 'vision' didn't work.

2. When he said 'opportunities,' he meant what's happening now.

3. 'In the oval discipline' doesn't really mean short trackers.

4. Quotes from his employees, his programs, his websites, etc. are not really representative of his views.

In other words, they can't see the facts around TG's butt cheeks. So who cares?

DaveL
09-24-03, 10:08 PM
You forgot #5 which I've seen articulated by the very same Lemmings I used to debate the point with on Speednet:

If oval track drivers didn't get IRL rides it's their own damn fault. They should have gone out and found money to buy rides with like the rest of the guys who got IRL rides that way.

No really, they said that.

Racewriter
09-24-03, 10:49 PM
Originally posted by DaveL
You forgot #5 which I've seen articulated by the very same Lemmings I used to debate the point with on Speednet:

If oval track drivers didn't get IRL rides it's their own damn fault. They should have gone out and found money to buy rides with like the rest of the guys who got IRL rides that way.

No really, they said that.

Heck, Dave, they still say it when they get an opportunity.

Chief
09-25-03, 12:25 AM
Hope you can all excuse me for adding one additional (long) article to this mix. Hinton took the bait and the irony of it all now is freaky. Enjoy.



IRL suddenly has become a force

By Ed Hinton | Sentinel Staff Writer
Posted September 15, 2002


At birth, the Indy Racing League was ridiculed as the most destructive, if not simply the worst, idea in the history of major motor sports.

Initially, it lived down to its billing -- gutting the prestige of the Indianapolis 500, tearing asunder Indy-car racing, fumbling the hearts and minds of masses of American race fans right into the lap of burgeoning NASCAR. Now, as it concludes its seventh season today at Texas Motor Speedway outside of Fort Worth, the IRL is hailed as the healthiest thing happening to auto racing.

It has left once-mighty Championship Auto Racing Teams bloodied and reeling, financially, from the long Indy-car war. And the IRL is looking long-term to challenge NASCAR for national supremacy.

"NASCAR hasn't always been on top," says Tony George, president of Indianapolis Motor Speedway and the singular founder of the IRL. "I don't think they're preordained to always be."

Multinational corporations are buying into the IRL for hundreds of millions of dollars -- Honda, Toyota, Philip Morris, General Motors, with more on the way.

ABC Sports President Howard Katz, whose programming acumen was questioned when he staked the network's future summer Sundays on the fledgling IRL, is smiling now, breathing easier, even envisioning the IRL in Monday Night Football's prime-time slot, as a prelude to NFL seasons.

Through the IRL's troubled formative years, "they've been putting pieces in place," Katz says. "And I think if you look at it objectively now, the pieces are in place. Next year ought to be the year [the IRL] takes some kind of leap in television ratings because the product is so much better."

Meanwhile, Fox, NBC and Turner stew in their hundreds of millions in losses -- advertising shortfalls on their $2.8 billion contract with NASCAR -- despite the highest TV ratings in sports other than the NFL. One industry executive assesses the NASCAR television paradox as "an artistic success and a financial failure."

Corporate bets aren't placed frivolously. For now, NASCAR may have four times the TV ratings and 10 times the attendance of the IRL. But some of the world's richest speculators think they can see over the horizon.

Close finishes the norm

Already, the IRL's pure racing is the closest in the world.

NASCAR is "the most competitive motor sport in the world," series vice president Jim Hunter says. But NASCAR's closest margin of victory this season was exactly 25 times longer, in time, than the IRL's closest. In the two leagues' second-closest finishes, NASCAR's time gap was 12.3 times larger. Even the IRL's dullest finish was closer than four Winston Cup races wound up.

More telling is head-to-head comparison this season at the new "big-market" tracks, which both organizations consider vital to their long-term growth, and which were built specifically to accommodate NASCAR and Indy cars.

As a rule of thumb in today's major oval-track racing, a one-second gap between cars roughly approximates the length of a football field.

At Chicagoland Speedway, NASCAR's margin of victory on July 14 -- 0.812 of a second by Kevin Harvick over Jeff Gordon -- was 338 times greater than last Sunday's IRL margin, 0.0024 of a second by Sam Hornish Jr. over Al Unser Jr. On the same 1.5-mile oval where Gordon had followed Harvick in a futile promenade to the end, Hornish and Unser raced literally side-by-side for their final 32 laps.

At 1.5-mile Texas Motor Speedway, NASCAR's Matt Kenseth beat Gordon by 0.888 of a second -- 81 times the IRL margin, 0.011 by Jeff Ward over Unser.

In the Los Angeles market, at 2.0-mile California Speedway, NASCAR's finish was 22 times wider than the IRL's. -- 0.630 by Jimmie Johnson over Kurt Busch, compared to 0.0281 by Hornish over Jaques Lazier.

The 3,400-pound NASCAR cars have barely been able to break out of single-file racing on the new ovals near the big cities; IRL cars -- which weigh half as much -- are tailored for just such facilities. They can draft closely together, something NASCAR cars can't do anymore except at Daytona Beach and Talladega. And the IRL cars can "slingshot" past each other, a crowd-wowing aerodynamic maneuver that is mostly a thing of NASCAR's past.

And now, confident in its "product," the IRL means not only to challenge NASCAR in the United States but Formula One for preeminence in the motor-racing world.

If that ambition sounds ludicrous, consider the guffaws and grunts of disgust at the upstart IRL in 1995-96 . . . and the titans humbled since.

Penske a key figure

The IRL was the last place Roger Penske, America's most renowned and diversified owner of racing teams, could imagine himself fielding cars.

Penske was not only a founder but the cornerstone of CART, which then was filthy rich, powerful, glamorous and the backbone of Indianapolis 500 fields. Today at Texas, Penske's cars will complete his first season as a full-fledged IRL loyalist.

Just a few years ago, "I never would have believed I'd be running IRL," Penske says. "But we're in business. And business changes. Circumstances change."

Penske moved for two reasons. First, he saw greater stability in the privately held IRL than publicly held CART. On Wall Street in recent weeks, CART stock has been trading below $5 a share, down from $17.20 a year ago. Second, Penske's primary sponsor, Philip Morris U.S.A, wanted all-U.S. exposure for its Marlboro brand, as opposed to CART's globe-hopping.

CART -- along with the majority of racing moguls and experts worldwide -- at first considered the IRL folly, a bush-league rebellion led spitefully by George to break CART's hold on Indy.

When everything erupted with CART's boycott of the 1996 Indy 500, Penske became CART's de facto field marshal. He provided Michigan International Speedway, which he then owned, as a battleground.

CART tried a frontal assault on the new IRL by staging, at Michigan, the first -- and last -- 500-mile Indy-car race ever run on the same day as the Indy 500. The challenge failed, and CART's erosion -- though it would be slow -- began from there.

Big bucks, deep pockets

What CART didn't count on was the staying power of George and the depth of his pockets. Though George won't say exactly how much he spent getting the IRL up and running, he indicates it was between $200 million and $250 million.

"Tony has stayed on course," Penske says. "He's put his money where his mouth is, he hasn't said too much and he's kept on going. I don't think he's varied at all."

Both leagues hemorrhaged money as years passed. CART's lucrative sponsorships, often as high as $25 million per team per season, ran out. Few of George's upstart teams had any money to speak of, so he subsidized them.

Early on, George had only two true believers who mattered. ABC's Katz believed because "Tony had the temple," the Indy 500. The other was NASCAR Chairman Bill France Jr., who said at the worst stages of the open-wheel war, "He [George] isn't going to go away."

France also smelled profits of his own from the IRL. He heads International Speedway Corp., which controls 12 major tracks nationwide. The IRL could sell tickets on non-NASCAR weekends when those tracks would otherwise be idle.

Conversely, George found a war chest in NASCAR in the form of the Brickyard 400, which has drawn sellout crowds of 300,000-plus at Indy since 1994.

"Without question it's a very profitable race for us, and it helped underwrite the Indy Racing League," George says.

And so far he hasn't lost money on the first two runnings of the Formula One U.S. Grand Prix, which he brought to Indy in 2000 and foresees as another big revenue-producer long-term.

By moving revenues around his racing interests, George was "just taking money from one pocket and putting it in the other," he says. "It wasn't as if the IRL was the big sucking sound."

Talking the talk

George tweaked the noses of his allies in London and Daytona Beach last May, minutes after Honda delivered what was widely considered the coup de grace in the Indy-car war, announcing it would enter the IRL next year. "CART's had a good run," George said. "But we're looking to knock CART or NASCAR or Formula One off the top, too."

George sometimes speaks in convoluted language, and The translation was that he meant not only to topple CART from its pinnacle, but NASCAR and F1 from theirs, too.

"It wasn't meant to be a shot across anyone's bow," George says now. "Everybody asked me what my vision is for the IRL five or 10 years from now, and I stated that we want to be the premier racing series in the world."

France is recuperating from bypass surgery, but Hunter says NASCAR "accept[s] the challenge" for national supremacy. We want to be No. 1, and they want to be No. 1. Right now, they're No. 3 [behind Winston Cup and NASCAR's secondary Busch series]."

Hunter says everybody in NASCAR "wants the IRL to succeed. All these tracks around the country cannot stay in business based solely on Winston Cup."

The flash points of conflict may begin in the billion-dollar world of corporate sponsorship.

"I think we do [compete] every day, quite frankly," Hunter says of NASCAR and the IRL. "We're going to continue to do everything we can to help our teams compete for those sponsors."

To George, CART isn't much of an issue anymore, although "I still think there's room for a good road-racing series." He'll give them that because he has confined the IRL to oval tracks.

Though CART still outdraws the IRL, mainly due to six-figure crowds in Canada and Mexico, CART has fallen into deep financial trouble. The remaining teams, once so financially independent, will be subsidized by CART next season at nearly $1 million each. To cut costs, CART has mandated a "spec" engine, to be used in all its cars next year, provided by Ford Motor Co.

Penske believes that "within 18 to 24 months," there'll be but one major open-wheel series in America -- and it won't be CART.

"That's fine, if that's his feeling," says CART President Christopher Pook, who has been scrambling to reorganize the series. "But it's not going to deter us from continuing to grow."

Pook continues to add street races to CART's schedule, including a revived one in Miami this October and an all-new one in St. Petersburg next February.

As for any last hope of merger, "I've extended the olive branch on numerous occasions," Pook says, "and it's been broken off every time."

Familiar names abound

Slowly, the IRL is reversing criticisms for being a no-name series. Among the old reliable names from CART, two-time Indy 500 winner Unser Jr. already is in the IRL and Michael Andretti is roundly believed to be headed there next season with his own team, backed by as much as $15 million a year from Honda.

Fresh editions of classic names are being groomed. A.J. Foyt IV, grandson of A.J. Foyt Jr., won four of the seven races run by the IRL's new feeder series, Infiniti Pro, and won the series title. Arie Luyendyk Jr. finished second in the series.

And, says George, "We want to be able to compete for the Jeff Gordons, the Tony Stewarts, the Ryan Newmans, the Jimmie Johnsons . . ."

He understands NASCAR's supreme self-confidence of the moment. "They have a very strong organization and a very strong product," he says. "They're there [No. 1] now. And that's what they know. Today, that's all that matters."

And so NASCAR's executives look down at their little buddy the IRL, the lively puppy yapping at their heels. They do not see a predator over their shoulders.

DaveL
09-25-03, 12:58 AM
NASCAR is as worried about the IRL as Matt Kenseth is about Larry Foyt beating him on race day. In both cases the former hopes that the latter just stays the hell out the way and doesn't cause any trouble.

cart7
09-25-03, 06:18 AM
Originally posted by Racewriter
Heck, Dave, they still say it when they get an opportunity.
Exactly, I believe it was Tracy Hines who recently gets a call to test with an IPS team.
Yes, they want him to come over and take a spin around the track in one of the kiddie cars.

Oh BTW Tracy, you'll need $10k.
:gomer:

Treeface
09-25-03, 09:08 AM
That is some fine fiction writing. :thumbup:

Jag_Warrior
09-25-03, 12:37 PM
I really hate to rub salt into Ed Hinton's festering wound, but Howie Katz hitched his wagon to the wrong horsie it seems. His reward was being walked to the woods and being forced to dig his own grave. Outta there, baby!

For some reason these guys think that if they "talk up" the IRL long enough, it will finally take off. One of the world's oldest propaganda tricks is to repeat a lie over and over, and hope that people will begin to buy it just because they've heard it so many times. But the fans have stopped caring about open wheel, in part because of all the silliness. NHRA drag racing has leaped ahead of open wheel, and it stands closer to NASCAR in popularity than the IRL (or CART).

Get used to the .7's. If it didn't spark this year, I doubt that it will in the near (or distant) future. Even I expected the IRL to jump this year, what with the "Indy Car" name and the former CART teams and drivers going over. I was wrong... the bottom is falling out of this sport. Nice work, Tony-boy... ya dumb@ss!

Chitowncartfreak
09-25-03, 12:43 PM
Kind of off-topic, but is this the same Howard Katz that drives a Mazda prototype in the ALMS with Jim Downing? I noticed his name in the program at Road America.

eiregosod
09-25-03, 01:58 PM
what a difference a year makes, this time last year after their season ender, the EARL was on a roll, new teams/sponsors and a big increase in momentum!

Here we are a year later, and the series is in no better shape, perhaps worse, I guess its hard being at the top :rolleyes:

Ankf00
09-25-03, 02:01 PM
Originally posted by Chitowncartfreak
Kind of off-topic, but is this the same Howard Katz that drives a Mazda prototype in the ALMS with Jim Downing? I noticed his name in the program at Road America.

think he means the Katz that was director of ABC sports and said that CART would be dead

eiregosod
09-25-03, 02:11 PM
this just in, final falls to a 0.6 !!

Chitowncartfreak
09-25-03, 02:16 PM
Originally posted by Ankf00
think he means the Katz that was director of ABC sports and said that CART would be dead

Yes - is this the same Howard Katz, who was with ABC, who is now driving in ALMS with Jim Downing?

Racewriter
09-25-03, 04:07 PM
Originally posted by eiregosod
this just in, final falls to a 0.6 !!

Tied the record, set at PPIR this year.

RichK
09-25-03, 04:15 PM
I guess since there were better IRL ratings right after the split, maybe Toney should start another split? Maybe a new 25/8 rule for teams near the back half of the grid? Buzz could come back, Racin could come back, Tyce too!

I'm just trying to help!:p

rabbit
09-25-03, 04:31 PM
Originally posted by RichK
I guess since there were better IRL ratings right after the split, maybe Toney should start another split? Maybe a new 25/8 rule for teams near the back half of the grid? Buzz could come back, Racin could come back, Tyce too!

I'm just trying to help!:p Front-engine roadsters BAYBEE!! :D :thumbup:

Moto-Guzzi
09-25-03, 04:54 PM
.6 on Network tV!!! They are in fAR bigger trouble than they are letting on.

IF CART scores anywher in the mid points I'll be disapointed. However cART on CBS comes close to twice the ratings of Fontana in general. Will see.

Treeface
09-25-03, 06:56 PM
"They are in far bigger trouble than they are letting on."

He and his followers have convinced themselves of his infallibility. There is nothing to let on. What Mr. none-too-bright says is the truth as far as they see it. Empty grandstands? lousy TV numbers? Tony says "no problem". So it's no problem. See how easy it is?

DaveL
09-25-03, 07:12 PM
Originally posted by Treeface
"They are in far bigger trouble than they are letting on."

He and his followers have convinced themselves of his infallibility. There is nothing to let on. What Mr. none-too-bright says is the truth as far as they see it. Empty grandstands? lousy TV numbers? Tony says "no problem". So it's no problem. See how easy it is?

I keep seeing references to "Brianswish". I'm sure it's a typo for "Brainwash".

eiregosod
09-25-03, 08:43 PM
just some ramble thought:

regarding TG, I would say that the Indy 500 is sacrasanct , he chose to ruffle the feathers of the best teams/drivers, wanting to set the agenda of a then private company, CART, then introducing the 25/8 rule so his races would be well contested by his groupies!

some of the biggest former fans of the Indy 500 are its now biggest critics, those who follow TG line ;) go on about that his bank a/c is replenished by the BY400 as the sole reason why the IRL should be numero uno :shakehead

Treeface
09-26-03, 12:17 AM
October 24, 1995

The IRL and the '500' Future
To The Editor
The Indianapolis Star
The Indy Racing League and the '500' future

by Anton Hulman George / Indianapolis Motor Speedway President

It is my hope to provide an understanding of the purpose and motivation behind the formation of the Indy Racing League. There is much controversy in this matter, expressed as anxiety and even animosity by certain members of the Indy racing community, several fans, and more than one journalist.

In time, I hope the current wounds are healed and that these disagreements ultimately provide for clearer and stronger relationships throughout our sport. Later, I'll get into specific reasons why I believe so strongly in the formation of this league.

Of immediate concern, though, is the unsettling rhetoric of threats, boycotts and an alternate race on May 26 as leveled by Championship Auto Racing Teams (CART) against both the Indianapolis 500 and the IRL. Other than to once again reiterate our almost daily, sincere invitation to the racing community that we consider all racers friends and that IRL events and the "500" are open to any legitimate team with a legal car and qualified driver, I cannot say how this will all turn out.

What I can say, very sincerely, is that any and all teams that have competed in past "500s," many of them CART franchisees, are 100 percent welcome to enter and compete in any of our IRL events. New entrants are welcome too.

That said, I'm going to specifically address just a single, highly inaccurate word that has recently surfaced as CART's focal buzzword to describe its self-imposed predicament regarding the "500." The word is "lockout."

Let's make this clear: There is no lockout. What I believe to be the case is that CART, following an effort to eliminate the IRL and gain control of the Indianapolis 500, is in the uncomfortable position of having created deliberate and unnecessary conflicts from which it will not extricate itself.

Those conflicts surfaced with CART's announcements of technical specifications for its 1996 cars and of its 1996 schedule, both of which occurred well after the corresponding IRL information had been made public and put in place for our inaugural season.

Probably 90 percent or more of the discussion (and cussing) has been aimed at the IRL's 75 percent-of-the-field qualifying incentive, the one that conditionally guarantees 25 spots in the Indianapolis 500 lineup to IRL competitors. Although we have not changed any of the four-day, speed-seeded qualifying format for the "500" with the fastest first-day qualifier, whoever it is, still on the pole, let me explain where the new qualifying criteria -- which only affects who gets bumped -- came from.

The IRL qualifying incentives, bridging across different events, provide a new and interesting dimension to how starting fields are established because they provide a hard, venue-to-venue continuity. There is a positive side in terms of publicity and race-to-race interdependency to build the league's identity. But the down side is that if the "500" were to be a true league member, then the rule would have to apply to the 33-car Indy field as well. We were on the fence leaning away from that one until the middle of June.

That was when CART announced its 1996 schedule. The components of our modest, five-race IRL schedule had been announced in January, April and late May, and each announcement was accompanied by an IRL promise not to create conflict with what we understood would be CART's schedule. We obviously hoped they would enter our races.

On June 10, CART announced its 15-race 1996 schedule. Ultimately, four of its dates appeared to us to have been put deliberately in conflict with three important IRL dates: CART's Brazil and Australia races were placed one week before and one week after the IRL's announced Phoenix date of March 24, 1996; CART's Nazareth race was listed on April 28 against USAC's important Indy Rookie Orientation Program; and inexplicably, CART chose to schedule Elkhart Lake directly opposite the IRL's Aug. 18 New Hampshire race.

Travel logistics virtually eliminate the possibility of any team running Brazil, Phoenix and Australia on consecutive weekends. While "ROP" (as USAC's rookie program is called) is not a highly publicized event, it is nonetheless well known in racing circles that it occurs a week before opening day at Indianapolis, when the final preparations to the race track have been completed. All CART could say about its Elkhart Lake date was that it had always raced on that date (it hasn't) and besides, CART stated, it hadn't made any promises that it wouldn't conflict.

What do you do if you are in our shoes? CART had obviously made a perfectly legal, free-market competition move to prevent its teams from participating in the opportunities presented by the IRL. At that point it became incumbent on us to respond in kind, and we did it with a carrot instead of a stick.

On July 3, we announced $12 million in prize money for the five-race series, and qualifying criteria weighted toward teams that participate in IRL events. In August, we weighted our season championship points system very heavily toward consistent IRL participation. Plus we already had an agreement in place with ABC Sports for live television coverage of all five IRL races.

These are strong, attractive incentives for open participation that in no way imply a lockout. Then as now, the IRL is designed for open inclusion of any and all competitors. It is unfortunate CART is forcing its members to choose.

Then there is the equipment question. On Oct. 11, a CART car owner was quoted in The Star sports section about the necessity for the IRL to adopt '96 CART equipment rules or else CART will be unable to compete in next year's Indianapolis 500. That is a true statement, sort of. The problem resulted from CART's decision last May to institute sweeping changes in its own '96 chassis specifications that it knew when it made them would effectively eliminate its cars from competing in the 1996 "500."

That was CART's decision, not ours, and I firmly believe the decision was motivated by CART's desire to stifle the development of the IRL by creating the burden on its members of redundant, expensive equipment.

It was, in my view, another free-market competition decision. I respect CART's right to compete against the IRL, although it was certainly not our original intent to compete against them. We wanted to coexist and not force anyone to choose sides. That is why in early March the IRL rescinded its own proposed sweeping changes in both chassis and engine specifications.

At that time, CART told us they felt the IRL's proposed technical changes -- which we had announced in 1994 -- would create hardship because they were too late for 1996 production and too expensive for teams because all new equipment would be required. We did not entirely agree with those assessments, but in the interest of removing obstacles to agreement, the IRL announced March 10 that for 1996 all applicable 1995 USAC and CART specifications would be observed. It was purely a move of appeasement on our part.

Imagine our surprise when two months later, in mid-May, CART adopted changes in chassis specifications that were very close to what the IRL had rescinded in the interest of keeping peace in the family. While technical and safety improvements are the backbone of auto racing, it was obvious to me that CART's chassis change was motivated less by performance than by its political desire to prevent the IRL from conducting races in 1996. I was very disappointed by this, but it was not of our doing and we will stick to the commitments we made for 1996 rules.

Chassis incompatibility and schedule conflicts: CART created both these problems after the IRL was on record as sincerely having tried to avoid them. The purpose of the IRL is to provide growth, stability and opportunity for open-wheel, oval track racing. That mission is certainly not intended to harm or control CART.

In fact, it has nothing to do with CART. We simply do not want the Indianapolis 500 to be controlled by an outside group that does not have as its most important goal the future of Indianapolis type oval track racing. Not to mention a group that is based out of state and is far removed from the significance of the "500" in this community.

It is often said that I am motivated by power and greed in forming the IRL. It certainly is not greed, because this is a very intense financial commitment for us to build a race track in Florida and establish proper league staffing and resources. The monetary payback, if there is any, will be over the long haul. On the subject of power, my desire is not now and never has been control of CART, IndyCar or the entire series of whatever cars run in the Indianapolis 500. The payback on that side is simply a peace of mind that comes from maintaining the sovereignty of this wonderful event.

Far from wanting to run the sport, I'd love to see even the IRL develop an autonomy. There is much I would like to do in my life, but I'll be unable to enjoy any of it if the "500" is not secure.

That's why the Indy Racing League was formed. I felt the long-term protection of the "500" depended on a solid series of top level open-wheel, oval track races. To that end, this league was created because CART provided no long-term guarantees to the "500" or to oval track racing. Nor has CART as an organization exhibited long-term stability, with four different board voting structures and four different chief executives just in the short five years I've been president of the Speedway.

The Indianapolis 500 will not be controlled by CART. They are welcome to join us as competitors, but not to impose their will or their governing structure on the Speedway.

Our timing in all of this was pretty good. The threat I feared might someday materialize -- a CART sanction in a power move against the Speedway -- is evidently upon us. Although you can argue that we brought it on ourselves this time, I am convinced it would have happened over some other issue at some other time. This time, though, we were in the middle of exercising some very important American ideals -- those of free competition, open markets and entrepreneurship. We are in a position of strength, and we are steadfastly in a position to defend the future of the "500" with the Indy Racing League.

It breaks my heart when I see CART drivers quoted as saying the "500" is "just another race," and I can't count the number of CART owners who have stated on various occasions that they would prefer to emasculate the month of May, and instead re-make the greatest automobile race meeting in the world into a single-weekend event. I would be ashamed if we let that happen here. It would be an incalculable loss for both the world of racing and the local community.

DaveL
09-26-03, 12:52 AM
Ah yes, Tony's Letter To The Star in which he whined about how CART was so EVIL because it wouldn't help a rival entity designed from the begining to put CART out of business off the ground. In short, he was upset because CART wouldn't help Tony put itself out of business. Ooook Anton.

And in another bit of revisionist history, he says that 25/8 was in response to what CART did in 1995 which is total bull****. The guarenteed starting positions were part of the original press release from July of 1994 which announced the formation of the IRL.

Finally, the Letter also is a big admission that it was all about power and returning racing to the Indy Uber Alles model that was such a total failure under USAC and is proving to be an equal failure (I can give 0.6 examples of the failure) the second time around.

Like I said, either Tony thinks were complete idiots or have very short memories.

FRANKY
09-26-03, 12:57 AM
If I read all this stuff I'll have to go back into therapy. :( I'll pass.

Corner5
09-26-03, 11:01 AM
The never-ending changing of the"vision" is getting old. 8 yrs and nothing. its always next year. Its always about Cart dying for irl to become successful. Now irl wishes it were CART with RR ,diversity of tracks,and a faithful fan base. I don't know how they are going to get 33 cars at indy next year.No matter what they do ,the TG factor is something irl cannot overcome.

(you should hear the rumor I heard at RA,can't say it on the board)

Chief
09-26-03, 11:01 AM
It IS therapy. It proves we're NOT crazy. He's got his sovereignty like he's on a sinking row boat w/o oars surrounded by sharks and there's blood in the water. It's just a matter of time.