View Full Version : Lucky 13! P Nuewman say Major CART announcment tommaro!
Moto-Guzzi
08-12-03, 09:37 AM
So the Denver Post is reporting, info available else where too.
This is the long rummored Aug 7th announcment. I have to credit AR-1 for as far as I know they were the first to break the news. They said Aug 7th, but shortly after said don't get hung up on the date, it could happed a few days later, looks like Mark and co were right.
No Bernie, could be good. He is a sleezy dude. I don't know how much cash Genlozzi has, but he sure has Moxy!
racer2c
08-12-03, 09:40 AM
Link to Article (http://www.denverpost.com/Stories/0,1413,36%257E89%257E1563554,00.html)
racer2c
08-12-03, 09:41 AM
So what was all of this BE talk over the last year? Did he back out? Was it more of just strategic planning for the future? Interesting.
An ESPN article has Dario linked to N/H for next year as well.
racer2c
08-12-03, 10:36 AM
Originally posted by cart7
An ESPN article has Dario linked to N/H for next year as well.
I don't think Dario is happy in the IRL. But, I think the chance of Carl going to the dark side is 50/50 (same as CART).
Originally posted by cart7
An ESPN article has Dario linked to N/H for next year as well.
It would be interesting to see how the CART fans would react to Dario coming back to the league. As an IRL fan I think I can vouch for all 5 of us when I say that we would be glad if he left. I don't know anyone who likes the guy.
Originally posted by racer2c
I don't think Dario is happy in the IRL. But, I think the chance of Carl going to the dark side is 50/50 (same as CART).
IMO I believe that Haas will stay in CART as long as it survives.
RaceGrrl
08-12-03, 12:28 PM
Originally posted by JSR
I don't know anyone who likes the guy.
Yes, you do. :)
I'd be happy if he came back, though I'd not be the fan that I once was. Regardless of his personality, he's too good on road courses to waste himself in the IRL.
JLMannin
08-12-03, 12:30 PM
Originally posted by JSR
It would be interesting to see how the CART fans would react to Dario coming back to the league. As an IRL fan I think I can vouch for all 5 of us when I say that we would be glad if he left. I don't know anyone who likes the guy.
What is there to react to? I'd be glad to have him back in CART. His current employer can rot right where he is, however.
Originally posted by RaceGrrl
Yes, you do. :)
:thumbup: Good to know that there is at least one out there. Actually I was referring to IRL fans. I can't recall to many happy folks when the news came out that he was moving to the IRL with MA.
Originally posted by JLMannin
What is there to react to? I'd be glad to have him back in CART. His current employer can rot right where he is, however.
I remember at 7g there were a lot of FDF's and I don't think they meant forget.
I'm with Racegrrl, regardless of whether you like him or not, his ability to turn right is worth the price of admission.:thumbup:
JLMannin
08-12-03, 12:34 PM
He was under contract and chose to honor that contract. I respect that.
Originally posted by JLMannin
He was under contract and chose to honor that contract. I respect that.
I am glad to see some positives from you guys. When he went to the IRL the only thing I could find was negative(from both sides).
I do hope you guys get him back. It sounds like he will be much more appreciated by CART fans.
RaceChic
08-12-03, 12:48 PM
Originally posted by JLMannin
What is there to react to? I'd be glad to have him back in CART. His current employer can rot right where he is, however.
I will agree with that 110% and I would love to see Scott Dixon, Gil de Ferran and maybe Tony Kanaan come back as well. A girl can hope anyway! ;)
JLMannin
08-12-03, 12:53 PM
I think deFerran may just retire after this season. Dixon and Kanaan also honored contracts. I do not know when they are up. It will be interesting to see what they do when when their contracts are up.
If I were a CART owner, I'd give Dixon a ride, but not Kanaan.
Dario is a shadow of what he once was. After Greg Moore's crash, and Dario's huge wreck at Homestead a few months later, he just hasn't been the same. These days, he seems more like a driver than a racer.
As for Tony, I really like him, but I put him in the same category as a Helio Castro Neves. He's as good as the car you put him in. Put him in a top car, and he can win races. Put him in a mid-pack car, and he'll finish mid-pack. The true greats can compete for wins in mid-pack cars. I've yet to see Tony (or Helio, for that matter) do that. Dario used to be able to, but not anymore.
Originally posted by JLMannin
I think deFerran may just retire after this season.
The last information I had was that Gil was in at Penske through 2004 as well.
JLMannin
08-12-03, 02:48 PM
Originally posted by spook
The last information I had was that Gil was in at Penske through 2004 as well.
I was just hoping, I guess. Too many concusions :(
devilmaster
08-12-03, 02:48 PM
Originally posted by spook
The last information I had was that Gil was in at Penske through 2004 as well.
Mannin's comment said 'I think' which means its his opinion.
Besides, Barry Sanders walked away from multiple years left on his contract and retired from the Detroit Lions. It can happen.
Steve
Originally posted by devilmaster
Mannin's comment said 'I think' which means its his opinion.
Besides, Barry Sanders walked away from multiple years left on his contract and retired from the Detroit Lions. It can happen.
Steve
I wasn't trying to be argumentative - I was just trying to help!:confused:
devilmaster
08-12-03, 03:24 PM
Originally posted by spook
I wasn't trying to be argumentative - I was just trying to help!:confused:
Ditto.
Steve
nz_climber
08-12-03, 03:57 PM
Originally posted by RaceChic
I will agree with that 110% and I would love to see Scott Dixon, Gil de Ferran and maybe Tony Kanaan come back as well. A girl can hope anyway! ;)
Put my vote in for Scott :) he be awfully dizzy by now (kiwi's just aren't made for going round in cirlces)
If Dashley and Kanaan never turn another lap in CART competition it will be fine by me.
I don't want anyone who chose to be associated with that creatin POS car owner of theirs. They made their choice. They said their peace to the fans.
Eff them and the Crapwagons they rode out on.
Formula1
08-13-03, 09:09 AM
Good morning! It's the 13th and I am waiting for the news!
RaceChic
08-13-03, 10:04 AM
Apparently I read at CW that it is not going to be today after all. :(
WickerBill
08-13-03, 10:16 AM
I'm not against talking about or linking other sites at all.
But does CW mean crapwagon or champweb? Could you folks spell it out for confused little me?
WB
RaceChic
08-13-03, 10:19 AM
Crapwagon! Crapwagon! Crapwagon!!! :p :D :p :D
RaceGrrl
08-13-03, 10:28 AM
Link to Crapwagon thread (http://cartfanatics.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=8419) on this same topic. MarkC posts there now.
racer2c
08-13-03, 10:29 AM
Originally posted by RaceGrrl
Link to Crapwagon thread (http://cartfanatics.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=8419) on this same topic. MarkC posts there now.
With his picture I see. :gomer:
They should charge him.
RaceGrrl
08-13-03, 10:45 AM
Originally posted by racer2c
They should charge him.
I think he's paying, allright. There are some who've been ragging on him pretty hard.
Originally posted by DaveL
If Dashley and Kanaan never turn another lap in CART competition it will be fine by me.
I don't want anyone who chose to be associated with that creatin POS car owner of theirs. They made their choice. They said their peace to the fans.
Eff them and the Crapwagons they rode out on.
What he said.
Gurneyflap
08-13-03, 02:10 PM
Yep, this "discussion" has become real productive. "Eff 'em"? "POS"?...this is the DIRECTION of all the good people who came or were invited here? WB, did I just lose a post or did you actually interpret my reply as a troll or something? If a contrary opinion is going to be this narrowly defined, I'M SCREWED! The rough language is preferable to a little sarcasm!? I'm not even a little bit angry, just surprised that it seems we are supposed to all just AGREE on everything, smile and have a nice day!? Of course I was trying to get a response, heck we were ALREADY "off-topic"! So, race fans, what did I write?: (about people returning to CART) A) Yep, hate 'em all, the effing pieces of s... Hope they all go broke and are miserable forever for what they did to this TRUE race fan! or...B) CART has recently suffered from a drain of money and talent and a situation that would help restore the series to a level somewhat higher than it enjoys now would be a positive development. (this is the cleaned-up version of my disappeared response...I know I can be "uninvited" anytime, but I don't want that. Really anyone else have a thought on how CART can improve? Hope we find out something along that line...TODAY!
racer2c
08-13-03, 02:21 PM
Originally posted by Gurneyflap
Really anyone else have a thought on how CART can improve? Hope we find out something along that line...TODAY!
Unfortunately when I break it down, the most feasible 'return to profitability' is going all streets with a formalized 'entertainment package'. It's not what I want as a 20+ year CART fan, but I see that being the most realistic survival plan. At least CART has a plan.
Originally posted by Gurneyflap
wah, wah, blah, blah, duh, duh, waaa, waa..................!
Did I ever tell you my story about Chico the chihuahua?
WickerBill
08-13-03, 03:51 PM
Yes, you lost a post, because your post was not about the topic, and it was completely condescending in tone (just like this one is, too). It was a long version of "neener neener, you are a bunch of idiots".
As always -- argue about ideas without making it personal, and you're all set here. Tell people (in so many words) that they're stupid, and you're not all set here.
It has very little to do with agreeing. People disagree all the time here. In fact, some disagreement before your post about Dario. Disagreement on the future in the engine threads and the MotoRock threads. Disagreement on just about everything. Done with decency and a lack of smarminess, it stays....
WB
P.S. What you wrote above as your "cleaned-up response" is absolutely NOTHING like what you wrote in the removed post. If that's what you INTENDED to say, I sure didn't read it that way.
Sean O'Gorman
08-13-03, 04:37 PM
Originally posted by racer2c
Unfortunately when I break it down, the most feasible 'return to profitability' is going all streets with a formalized 'entertainment package'. It's not what I want as a 20+ year CART fan, but I see that being the most realistic survival plan. At least CART has a plan.
I disagree. I think if CART is going to use off-track entertainment to sell the series, it is because they are unwilling to change the on-track product and its glaring flaws. The racing is great at some tracks (RA, Mid-Ohio, Milwaukee, St. Petersburg), but downright horrible at others (Vancouver, Miami, Denver). Plus, aside from the hardcore fans like us, there is very little in the way of attachment to the drivers at any significant level. Too many people at the races don't know or care who the drivers are behind the wheel, and its not any better in the ladder series, even if we're talking about American drivers. Motorock will end up being just a bandage on a flesh wound.
If they are going to all street courses, then get Fords blessing first. Make the cars smaller, with turbo 4 cylinders, which will allow a "race" to take place.
Ziggy
racer2c
08-13-03, 04:51 PM
Originally posted by SOG35
I disagree. I think if CART is going to use off-track entertainment to sell the series, it is because they are unwilling to change the on-track product and its glaring flaws. The racing is great at some tracks (RA, Mid-Ohio, Milwaukee, St. Petersburg), but downright horrible at others (Vancouver, Miami, Denver). Plus, aside from the hardcore fans like us, there is very little in the way of attachment to the drivers at any significant level. Too many people at the races don't know or care who the drivers are behind the wheel, and its not any better in the ladder series, even if we're talking about American drivers. Motorock will end up being just a bandage on a flesh wound.
Well, with one oval next year and more than likely zero ovals in '05, there is no reason not to change the cars to create a more 'entertaining' street race.
In my opinion, a big series sponsors needs to step up with the funds. That is the only true lifeline that will save CART. The buyout group probably couldn't get them through next year if you believe the press.
My gut feeling is that there is one or two who are considering, they just need a push.
I don't think adding entertainment is a sign of unwillingness to change the product, but rather a way to attract people who otherwise wouldn't attend to the race track.
How many people went to Cleveland on Saturday night to get a good view of the fireworks, and saw the qualifying show as a result. I'd imagine at at least a few new fans were made that night.
Adding a concert does the same thing. It exposes new fans to the sport.
I imagine that the bands that will perform will be bands whose fanbase is a similar demographic to the CART Fan demographic.
You could put a stock block on the back of a Swift to match the roar of the T/A cars that will be accompaning them at the streets and let them rip. Program in no damage and they could just bounce off the walls and terrorize the city. :gomer:
There is no simple answer or it would have already been done.
Gotta side with JB and Dave on this one. BTW- How is Kanose honoring a contract when he moved to whiney's team this year?
Dr. Corkski
08-13-03, 05:59 PM
Is MarkC by any chance Nigerian?
Sean O'Gorman
08-13-03, 06:23 PM
Originally posted by JoeBob
Adding a concert does the same thing. It exposes new fans to the sport.
It doesn't work. I gave out 9 tickets to the Cleveland GP this year and only my cousin has bothered to pay attention to CART since then. Even at the track most of them were more interested in seeing the bands play, getting free Labatt's t-shirts, etc. than they were in the actual race. The feedback I got afterwards was pretty disappointing because that was 8 failed chances at bringing new fans to the sport.
lateralus42
08-13-03, 06:38 PM
Originally posted by SOG35
It doesn't work. I gave out 9 tickets to the Cleveland GP this year and only my cousin has bothered to pay attention to CART since then. Even at the track most of them were more interested in seeing the bands play, getting free Labatt's t-shirts, etc. than they were in the actual race. The feedback I got afterwards was pretty disappointing because that was 8 failed chances at bringing new fans to the sport.
It goes both ways, a couple of friends of mine went to the Long beach GP a couple of years ago because they liked the goo goo dolls. They had zero interest in racing before this, but after the weekend they became big racing fans and even better they became big CART fans. I swear they know more about CART now than I do.
If every year, 11% of the fans (Sean's 1 in 8) who show up for a concert or because of freebies become fans for life, that isn't half bad. If even half of them start buying tickets to only their local race every year, that's pretty good growth.
We need to grow the hardcore base, but that starts with growing the "I go when the race is in town" weekend. The first step is to make "event fans" the second step is to grow the "event fans" into "series fans."
Keep in mind that postcards sent in the mail usually have a 1% return. There must be a lot of money to be made from 1%, because every day my mailbox is full.
As T7 said - if it was easy, it would already be done.
Originally posted by Ziggy
If they are going to all street courses, then get Fords blessing first. Make the cars smaller, with turbo 4 cylinders, which will allow a "race" to take place.
Ziggy
Yes! Atlantics on steroids! 650 HP in a 1200 lb chassis.
Sean O'Gorman
08-13-03, 11:50 PM
Originally posted by pchall
Yes! Atlantics on steroids! 650 HP in a 1200 lb chassis.
1) Is an Atlantics car that light? I'm unfamiliar with the specs.
2) With a package like that, they wouldn't need concerts to bring people in, and this what I'm trying to get at. Instead of using gimmicks to make up for the bad racing, fix whats on the track and the fans will come. Champ Cars suck on the street circuits but Atlantics-style racing would be a big improvement, which would make the races more tolerable. F1, NASCAR, pre-split CART, and the Indy 500 didn't need gimmicks to be successful.
Originally posted by SOG35
1) Is an Atlantics car that light? I'm unfamiliar with the specs.
2) With a package like that, they wouldn't need concerts to bring people in, and this what I'm trying to get at. Instead of using gimmicks to make up for the bad racing, fix whats on the track and the fans will come. Champ Cars suck on the street circuits but Atlantics-style racing would be a big improvement, which would make the races more tolerable. F1, NASCAR, pre-split CART, and the Indy 500 didn't need gimmicks to be successful.
1) 1120lb. dry weight. But lets go with an F-3000 chassis. Please?
2). I happen to like rock and roll.
Having a concert near the track on race weekend is nothing new. Street venues have been doing this for years. Aren't they just talking about moving the talent up a notch?
Dr. Corkski
08-14-03, 07:29 AM
Originally posted by JT265
1120lb. dry weight. But lets go with an F-3000 chassis.F3000 appears to be having the same problems as Atlantics is when it comes to chassis.
Originally posted by Type-S
Aren't they just talking about moving the talent up a notch? Maybe they should try doing that with the drivers first.
Originally posted by Dr. Zhivago
F3000 appears to be having the same problems as Atlantics is when it comes to chassis.
I would rather re-work Lola's chassis then mess with Swift's though. Just my opinion.
Maybe they should try doing that with the drivers first.
That would be a swell idea. Imagine not having Rodolfo Lavin challenging for ROY honors. j/k
Originally posted by Gurneyflap
Yep, this "discussion" has become real productive. "Eff 'em"? "POS"?...this is the DIRECTION of all the good people who came or were invited here?
The premise of your post is nonsense. Of those expressing an opinion on the prospect of drivers returning only a small percentage expressed the kind of opinion you're complaining about.
Not that there's anything wrong with it. People have as much right to form their opinions based on their own interests as drivers to to act in their own interests.
I would be happy to see some of the defectors return because it would be good PR for the series. But I would root against them unless they go a long way to make amends.
RaceGrrl
08-14-03, 09:15 AM
Originally posted by nrc
I would be happy to see some of the defectors return because it would be good PR for the series. But I would root against them unless they go a long way to make amends.
I would add that giving us someone to root against is not a bad thing. The CART drivers are so fan-friendly that it's hard to really cheer against any of them. Problem is, I don't know if I'd be anti-Franchitti if he came back. I always said that I wouldn't follow him in the IRL, but I'd be happy if he came back to CART. Same thing applies to Gil.
Maybe Mikey should come back, nobody likes him.
Originally posted by JT265
1) 1120lb. dry weight. But lets go with an F-3000 chassis. Please?
The last number I have on Atlantics is 1260 lb -- which is heavier than F1 at 1100 lb. Meanwhile, F3000 is at 1375 lbs.
BTW, you folks are farr too literal. When I type "Atlantics on steroids" it is a generalization about size and weight and muscle. Clearly the current Swift Atlantics chassis would never do the job with 650 HP. It's just the wheelbase and general package size that would make for hellacious road and street racing. Atlantics are at 104 inches and F3000 at 111 inches. The current champcars are at 124 inches, mostly for stability running at Indy and other superspeedways.
racer2c
08-14-03, 10:06 AM
I vote for 1200hp and 650lbs chassis, NOT F3000. Heck, since were're dreaming, make'em all look like an F2003-GA!
What about ground effects? Do the F-3000 and Atlantic chassis' utilize ground effect downforce? If so, how effective is it on slower street circuits compared to the current ChampCars?
Would it be better to go flat bottom and get some mongo tires and multi element wings and go for big time mechanical grip since the super speedways will be out and the aero resistance on big tires won't be as big of a deal?
Originally posted by Turn7
What about ground effects? Do the F-3000 and Atlantic chassis' utilize ground effect downforce? If so, how effective is it on slower street circuits compared to the current ChampCars?
Atlantics run considerable chassis ground effects downforce and smaller wings than champcars. A nice package for road and street and the antithesis of what became the compromise for the benfit of a few superspeedway races.
Originally posted by pchall
Atlantics run considerable chassis ground effects downforce and smaller wings than champcars. A nice package for road and street and the antithesis of what became the compromise for the benfit of a few superspeedway races. Bingo. The biggest problem with the current Champ Car is all the changes made to slow it down for two races. If CART does go to all street courses, they're going to need smaller cars with big hp and torque and massive downforce.
Gurneyflap
08-14-03, 01:45 PM
er...why the MASSIVE downforce? I think with all that power being discussed here all massive downforce is going to do is continue the parade. What can be done to reinvent the Champcar DRIVER? Less downforce? Restricted wings? NO wings!? We already have a spec tire, (so why all the "marbles"?) and a spec engine. Sure would make for creative shapes/bodywork. The rulebook would have to be carefully written and strictly enforced. The HUGE wings that are appearing in some series remind me of WoO, and I'll always like the wingless sprinters best...BUT...without ovals maybe big aero changes are in order as well? BACK to the future?
racer2c
08-14-03, 02:04 PM
I know! Delete the wings and add a four inch strip of steel around the whole car, like the neighborhood go-karts. Perfect for the street race formula!
Massive downforce means enough downforce that a guy can make a move without losing grip, but -because of the massive hp/torque - could still spin the wheels coming out of a turn.
But r2c's idea might work better.;)
Is as much "clean" air needed for ground effect downforce compared to what is needed for wings. I think the wings disrupting so much air in front causes the front end to wash out when you are bird dogging the car in front that your not able to get into striking distance and pounce on any mistake the driver makes in front of you. The leading car seems to lose ground on a mistake but is able to recover enough to maintian the lead because the following car can't stay right on the gearbox.
Downforce produced by ground effects are not effected by turbulance nearly as much as downforce produced by wings. However, I think it takes quite a bit more speed for ground effects to really kick in. (Not to mention that uneven pavement requires teams to raise the ride height, and thus cut the downforce.)
I'd like to see most of the downforce produced by the undertray, and the wings used primarily for trim.
Originally posted by JoeBob
Downforce produced by ground effects are not effected by turbulance nearly as much as downforce produced by wings. However, I think it takes quite a bit more speed for ground effects to really kick in. (Not to mention that uneven pavement requires teams to raise the ride height, and thus cut the downforce.)
I'd like to see most of the downforce produced by the undertray, and the wings used primarily for trim.
indeed, I'm with you on that.
Dr. Corkski
08-14-03, 06:08 PM
The F3000 chassis is closer to the old Indy Lights chassis than the Atlantics ground effects. There would be no passing using the F3000 Lolas (judging by this year's F3000 races) if CART likes to race mikcey mouse circuits too. I still think the Dallara Nissan chassis from the SWS are closer to what CART would want, and they are cheaper than the F3000 Lolas.
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