On "Swapping Paint"

[DaveL]

The Kurt Busch, Jeff Gordon, Juan Montoya, Jimmy Vasser experiences of this year has convinced me of certain things about good professional race car drivers stepping into alien cars.

Such drivers can get into any type of race car and drive it to about 95-97% of what it is capable of the first time out. The variable is how long it takes them to get those final few percentage points so they are driving the car to limits of its capability, or very close to it.

There is no question in my mind that if you took a top sprint car driver and put him in a Champcar that he'd drive it to the percentages I listed above. The question is whether or not he'd be able to get those final few percentage points and how long it would take. Conversly, put Paul Tracy in a Silver Crown car and he too will lap within 95-97% of what the car is capable of doing right out of the box. We don't know how long it would take him to get those final percentage points either.

All race car drivers have the same core skill set. It is this core that allows Kurt Busch to get into Fernandez' car and lap no worse than the green rookies that came to CART this year with no testing. Given enough testing and training, Busch would eventually drive that car to what it truely capable. How much is "enough"? I don't know.

I reject the labels "road racer" or "oval racer". I also reject the notion that formula car drivers have intrinsically more talent than sedan drivers. Kimi can't go to Pocono towmorrow and outrun Matt Kenseth in comparable Cup cars, and Kenseth can't go to Spa tomorrow and outrun Kimi. What does this prove about the two drivers? Nothing except that a driver with far more experience in one type of car will do better the first time out than a driver with less experience. Given time, Kimi could run a Cup car fast. Given time, Kenseth will drive an F1 car fast. I don't know how long it would take either to adapt, but they will adapt. Both are world class, professional race drivers. Put them in the same room and have them talk racing for 2 hours and each will be a better driver as a result of learning from each other.

Just my $.02.

[Railbird]

very good points Dave.

I think nowdays the size of the slot for time, testing and training is controled by the budget and patience of the owner/sponsors.

Of course kids like Kurt and Kimi shorten that acceptable time for others by their early successes.

[DaveL]

How did I know that you'd be one of the first to reply 'Bird :)

Big bucks and big schedules don't allow drivers from one form of racing to do one offs at another anymore and that's a shame. David Hobbs drove for Junie Donleavy the same year he drove for the factory March team in F1.

That drivers don't cross over anymore has been, IMHO, one of the most negative developments of the past 30 years.

[JT265]

Let me add myself and Michael Delany to the list Dave. ;) Growing up just outside of Mosport, I done the "Railbird" deal while all the big names lapped at speed, in everything from F1 toothpaste tubes to Can-Am cars to USAC stocks.

Seemed to me that the big names would jump into whatever formula was the headliner this week and go, and I agree that this is something that the sport sadly lacks in todays world.

[oddlycalm]

Great point. Today's packed schedules and tall budgets have taken away one of the more interesting aspects of the sport.

Mark Donohue winning a cup race in an ugly old AMC Matador, and winning Indy for that matter, was a real tickle for those of us that were regulars at the Trans Am and Can Am races. Mario drove everything and anything, and all of them well.

oc

[Turn7]

The closest example that is around today is Robbie Gordon.

He drives off-road, open wheel formula cars, stock cars and whatever else he can.

He just needs to learn to win in all of them.

[Axel]

Kurt got into Jourdains car not Adrians car by the way.

Montoya jumped into a F1 car and had o% to make up
same with Villenue, and Vise versa for Mansell when he went from f1 to cart.

[RaceGrrl]

Originally posted by Turn7
The closest example that is around today is Robbie Gordon.

He drives off-road, open wheel formula cars, stock cars and whatever else he can.


I've always liked that about Robby Gordon. Too bad that he's such a hothead- a cooler temperament goes a long way.

[DaveL]

Originally posted by Axel
Kurt got into Jourdains car not Adrians car by the way.


A minor point.



Montoya jumped into a F1 car and had o% to make up
same with Villenue, and Vise versa for Mansell when he went from f1 to cart.

Their first few laps in the cars were not at 100% of what the car could do. No matter what there is an adjustment period. It may take all of one test session or it may take 3 years, but a driver has to adapt. Going from a Champcar to an F1 machine or visa versa is not typically a major adjustment for most drivers.

[FRANKY]

I often wonder if racing didn't evolve into such a big money sport, sponsor concerns and career concerns keeping talent locked into a particular series.

Shame that that couldn't do in IROC for something better, only thing that could get drivers stepping into real cars would be a battle of egos.

[Racewriter]

Well said, Dave.

Incidentally, I disagree with oddlycalm on one major point.

I liked the Matador.;)

[DaveL]

As an addendum to my point, it is one thing to turn laps on an empty track on sticker tires. It is another to race the competition. Even if a driver makes the adjustment to the new type of car, that does not mean he/she would have fully adjusted to how to actually race it. A sprint car driver can't use sprint car tactics and technique on a road course, and a road racer can race a sprint car as if he was at Road America. Part of the learning curve is learning how race in the given discipline and learning how to do what with the car over the course of a fuel and tire run to compensate for the changes in handling, and every race car changes over the course of a run.

[Sean O'Gorman]

Dave-

My thoughts exactly. I almost wonder if racing is like a language, where if you get used to a certain type for long enough, it becomes much harder to learn anything else different from what you are used to. Maybe this is why a driver like Robby Gordon who did off-road, IMSA, NASCAR, early in his career can adapt so much better than other drivers, even though they may be more talented.

[RacinM3]

Part of the learning curve is learning how race in the given discipline

This is what separates the men from the boys, in my book. It doesn't matter whether a driver gets up to speed in 1 test day or 5 test days, although 1 is obviously beneficial.

"Learning how to race" is the key, and it's something from within the racer, that really can't be taught. You have it, or you don't.

Herta is a great driver. A great racer, though?

This has nothing to do with ovals vs. road courses, yet I do believe that ovals do suit some driving (and racing) styles better than others, and vice versa. This is what makes someone a 'specialist'. Although too much emphasis is placed on whether a driver is a road course driver or an oval driver, I think it's a mistake to discount the notion entirely.

But maybe the discussion should really be drivers vs. racers, instead of road course drivers vs. oval drivers.

Arguing about formula car drivers vs. NASCAR vs. rally drivers vs. sports car drivers is an excercise in futility. (Although that hasn't stopped Despain from polling on it:rolleyes: ).

[Racewriter]

Originally posted by RacinM3
This is what separates the men from the boys, in my book. It doesn't matter whether a driver gets up to speed in 1 test day or 5 test days, although 1 is obviously beneficial.

"Learning how to race" is the key, and it's something from within the racer, that really can't be taught. You have it, or you don't.

Herta is a great driver. A great racer, though?

This has nothing to do with ovals vs. road courses, yet I do believe that ovals do suit some driving (and racing) styles better than others, and vice versa. This is what makes someone a 'specialist'. Although too much emphasis is placed on whether a driver is a road course driver or an oval driver, I think it's a mistake to discount the notion entirely.

But maybe the discussion should really be drivers vs. racers, instead of road course drivers vs. oval drivers.

Arguing about formula car drivers vs. NASCAR vs. rally drivers vs. sports car drivers is an excercise in futility. (Although that hasn't stopped Despain from polling on it:rolleyes: ).

Right on target, M3. There are definitely components of oval racing that are unique from road racing, and vice versa. That's why, when we look at the great drivers over history, we tend to think first of those drivers that excelled in both disciplines - Foyt, Andretti, Big Al, Clark, etc.

[DaveL]

Originally posted by Racewriter
That's why, when we look at the great drivers over history, we tend to think first of those drivers that excelled in both disciplines - Foyt, Andretti, Big Al, Clark, etc.

Before his foot injuries Rick Mears was a terrific road racer.

[racer2c]

The tremendous growth of NASCAR has now convinced even the most die-hard race fans that the oval racing discipline is on par with superior performing cars on road courses. If the tables had been turned, ovals would still be looked at as the inferior discipline.
Heck, when you have road racers like Boris said claiming that he'd rather be known as a great oval racer that does pretty good on road courses says it all about how big NASCAR has become and the perception that they are the series in which all others are compared.

Road racing in a thoroughbred race car, with the hand eye coordination of thousands of shifts per race, tremendous horsepower and low weight, high g-force corners, perfect apex maneuvering, that is the ultimate art of racing.

To put a Busch in the same sentence with a Senna rubs me wrong to the core.

[DaveL]

Originally posted by racer2c
Road racing in a thoroughbred race car, with the hand eye coordination of thousands of shifts per race, tremendous horsepower and low weight, high g-force corners, perfect apex maneuvering, that is the ultimate art of racing.


I don't disagree and I doubt many others do either, but that's also beside the point of what this thread is about.



To put a Busch in the same sentence with a Senna rubs me wrong to the core.

Who did? Senna was a better driver than Busch ever will be. But that does not change the fact that if you gave Busch proper time and training in a formula car that he would eventually go fast. It is a mistake to underestimate the ability of top flight Cup drivers.

If Michael Schumacher got in a good Cup car at Chicagoland next week there is little question that he'd be able to drive it fast. But it is foolish to think that he'd win the race. There are things about Cup cars that he'd have to learn about, to say nothing of the tactics used on superspeedways. He may very well win his second time out once he learns his lessons but that's conjecture too. Schuey would no doubt win Cup races once his learning curve is complete, but don't think he wouldn't have a learning curve.

[racer2c]

Originally posted by DaveL


It is a mistake to underestimate the ability of top flight Cup drivers.



That is what this thread is about.

[Joe in LA]

I was a bit too young to appreciate the Jimmy Clark running in anything with wheels, but I did love seeing Al, Bobby, Danny Ongais etc.. run in F5000 against Brian Redman and other pure road racers. I also loved seeing all kinds of drivers give it a go in Porsche 962's in the 80s--more recently, seeing Dale Sr. and Jr. run the Corvette at Daytona. It happens too infrequently now, and I think that is not good for the sport.

Keep in mind that it is not only the teams restricting drivers, it is the sponsor and advertising commitments and the money---top drivers have a lot of off track commitments and a lot of money. They don't have the time, nor the monetary motivation that drivers in the 60s did.

[DaveL]

In the mid-late 1980s the 24 Hrs of Daytona featured a veritible who's who of auto racing. Drivers from NASCAR, Trans-Am, IMSA, CART, Group C, and F1 all competed on the same track at the same time. IROC was also more than NASCAR exhibition races. Too bad I couldn't apprecieate a Golden Age when we were in one.