View Full Version : Brazil
Looks like I may soon get an answer to a question I have had for a number of years. I certainly have a weak understanding of most "rules" in F-1 but have long wondered about the white line at pit in. Two wheels, under? FOUR wheels under? GRO was caught out there in qualifying, ripped his wing off, eliminated in Q1. "Under Review"...EVERYbody cuts right across the in-lane! Build a wall there, or a curb too High to hop?
Trevor Longman
11-24-12, 01:05 PM
When I checked last night, there was a 100% "chance" of rain on race day. "The great equalizer" as they say! :cool:
Insomniac
11-24-12, 01:57 PM
Will Massa have another seal broken?
Pilgrims Drop
11-24-12, 02:12 PM
Looks like I may soon get an answer to a question I have had for a number of years. I certainly have a weak understanding of most "rules" in F-1 but have long wondered about the white line at pit in. Two wheels, under? FOUR wheels under? GRO was caught out there in qualifying, ripped his wing off, eliminated in Q1. "Under Review"...EVERYbody cuts right across the in-lane! Build a wall there, or a curb too High to hop?
It's part of the track so when doing a lap you're OK to cross the white line... if you are heading in or out of the pits you are not allowed to cross the white line...
So, if 2 cars are in the lane how does either one know what the other is doing? The contact today was between a guy slowing IN the pit lane (?) and another guy flying THROUGH it, being pinched ever closer to the guardrail until contact was made. The way I saw it GRO was trying to PASS in the pit lane. Rule or not, that just sounds crazy! A redesign is advisable.
Andrew Longman
11-24-12, 05:58 PM
A redesign is advisable.Where would be the fun in that? That sort of boring reason and good order is more Swiss/Canadian than Brazilian. :D
That pit in is AWFULLY dangerous. It really should be redone.
Insomniac
11-24-12, 07:00 PM
So, if 2 cars are in the lane how does either one know what the other is doing? The contact today was between a guy slowing IN the pit lane (?) and another guy flying THROUGH it, being pinched ever closer to the guardrail until contact was made. The way I saw it GRO was trying to PASS in the pit lane. Rule or not, that just sounds crazy! A redesign is advisable.
It didn't seem like either guy was trying to pit.
Andrew Longman
11-24-12, 07:00 PM
That pit in is AWFULLY dangerous. It really should be redone.I heard that theY are moving the start finish, garages and pit to the other side of the track.
I get what you are saying but Brazil always pleased me because the pit in, lousy drainage and rivers, surrounding ghetto etc just seemed to be more authentic and annoying to BE than other antiseptic tracks. And then there is the elevation changes.:D
Rex Karz
11-24-12, 09:38 PM
The pit in has been that way for as long as this old geezer can remember. It should be changed, but the way tombstone technology works someone has to get killed first. Change the dynamics of the Pedro/Roman incident during qualifications today just a tiny bit and someone could be ordering a casket tonight.
opinionated ow
11-24-12, 10:12 PM
The pit in is like that because eons ago Interlagos was a bloody great oval track
Pilgrims Drop
11-24-12, 10:29 PM
So, if 2 cars are in the lane how does either one know what the other is doing? The contact today was between a guy slowing IN the pit lane (?) and another guy flying THROUGH it, being pinched ever closer to the guardrail until contact was made. The way I saw it GRO was trying to PASS in the pit lane. Rule or not, that just sounds crazy! A redesign is advisable.
The problem is that De La Rosas top speed down that straight is some 25kph off the Renault of Grosjean... the HRT is also WAAYYYY down on traction out of the corners... imo Pedro should've looked in his mirrors a bit and kept a wider line... RoGro was fully comitted to pass him on the inside when the HRT made the move to follow the racing line... they were both on fast laps so I guess going by the regulations the HRT shouldn't have to move but I think it would've been better for the HRT to end up behind the faster car and get what slipstream he could out of it...
The pitlane actually starts a lot sooner so it's actually quite easy to see when a driver is going to pit and when he's doing a lap... And it's always been like this at Interlagos and it's not that bad... think Korea for a really awful pit entry... and that's a brand new circuit
Pilgrims Drop
11-24-12, 10:34 PM
The pit in has been that way for as long as this old geezer can remember. It should be changed, but the way tombstone technology works someone has to get killed first. Change the dynamics of the Pedro/Roman incident during qualifications today just a tiny bit and someone could be ordering a casket tonight.
Already happened... twice in 2011... but not at that exact spot though... I think it was just before the kink where the pit entry is and the other was just after the Senna S curves... Curva del Sol
OH boy...here we go. It's drizzle, at least...going to be VERY interesting...VETTEL SPINS! Massa P-3...Alonso passes THREE going into L-2!? BETTER than interesting! See ya later.:thumbup:
So is the championship decided or does Alonso need to finish the race? I'm assuming Vettel is done.
Edit: I thought Vettel had sustained damage and had to pit?
Vettel up to SIXTH before his stop...from last! Incredible.:eek: And again to 6th from 16th after the other's stops shake out...he IS looking like a champ!...Geez, so is HULKENBERG!
And there we have it...Alonso and Vettel nose to tail by lap 21. Does he RACE or just FOLLOW his way to the title?:D...whoa... SAFETY CAR for debris (REAL debris) ...THAT is how a field should get bunched up! Big leads lost, but...RACE ON!
opinionated ow
11-25-12, 12:42 PM
Somebody please explain to me why they race in Bahrain, Abu Dhabi, Singapore, Shanghai, Korea, India and Valencia when there are proper racetracks like Interlagos out there?
I mean we could race at Dijon-Prenois, Imola, Zandvoort, Salzburgring, Autódromo Oscar Alfredo Gálvez (Buenos Aires), Estoril, Kyalami & Mantorp Park. Great racetracks in countries where people actually give a toss and would show up...
OH, MAAAN!...did Vettel pass KOB under yellow!? way back on lap 8! A FERRARI protest!?:rofl: This getting beyond interesting OR incredible! What's next...an earthquake!? Alonso and Vettel restart in P-4&5...maybe. ...Guess it was lap 18 and was a GOOD pass by Vettel
KOB passes Vettel on restart...give back? Does that count? Hmmmm. (GREAT hearing Posey trading quips with the guys again) Massa passes Vettel!...that helps, a LITTLE. L-34
OH NO...Kimi got lost! I guess he DOESN'T know what he is doing!?
JUST GREAT!:irked: HUL takes out HAM. 15 to go and Alonso is just +2 for the title but he pits in 3.3 and now is -3 to Vettel. I'm winded!:D. The HULK getting a penalty for hitting Hamilton...no determination if it was "just racing"? Uh oh...BIG rain may have arrived...10 to go.
Hmmm, ALO closing on MAS, then Vettel HAS to finish 8th or better...and he is in 7th now. Pretty dramatic, wouldn't you say?:D And Alonso passes into 2nd rather easily.
Vettel trying to pass Schumacher for 6th...is that a GOOD idea? Phew...he does it. Title looking a bit more secure now.
5 to go...Alonso needed to WIN, looks like he will be first loser to Button, however. Have MUCH enjoyed this race/season. Geez, was Buxton CRYING? Sounded properly grateful for his tour of duty.:D
Pilgrims Drop
11-25-12, 02:37 PM
WELTMEISTER!!
Insomniac
11-25-12, 03:09 PM
Nice job by Vettel. He had the horseshoe to avoid getting taken out and the skill to climb back into contention and get enough points to win #3.
stroker
11-25-12, 07:06 PM
and so begins the theorizing about 2013... I have to wonder if McLaren is second-guessing their choice of Perez given The Hulk's performance today. I also have to wonder what Lotus is going to do (if anything) with RoGro. Kimi certainly didn't impress at Brazil so maybe the car just wasn't up to snuff. We've got four months to wonder, now.
TravelGal
11-25-12, 08:43 PM
Thanks, Nizmo. I meant to watch the race but didn't get to. Your comments made me feel almost as if I had. VERY exciting. :thumbup:
Hard Driver
11-27-12, 02:07 AM
I would say that Vettel won the championship fair and square and is one of the best of our time. Fricking amazing driver. But Alonso was even better this season, took his midpacker car to the podium so much he was in contention in the last race, when his car did not deserve to be. Probably had the third best car after Red Bull and McLaren.
So I would have to say that Alonso showed how great he is this year.
JohnHKart
11-27-12, 04:02 AM
Just awesome. I almost always watch these Monday nights and it's tough to stay awake after my longest workout and busiest workday of the week. Just totally amped I never came close to a nap . Races like that make me feel glad to be alive. Brilliant. Really was pulling for Alonso just for a change in command but it didn't happen .
WickerBill
11-27-12, 07:05 AM
The Ferrari, by end of year, wasn't a mid-pack car anymore (as evidenced by Massa being on podiums and being faster than Fred semi-frequently). In fact, the season was strange that way -- Alonso was taking the whiny little b route after the race and saying Vettel won due to a dominant car. But in reality, it was good but not 2010 or 2011-level dominant. The mcLaren was better much of the season, but unlike other years, it came and went in groups of four races.
chop456
11-27-12, 07:34 AM
Yep. Alonso needs to shut it and take his defeat like a man.
And Vettel's the one that can't handle pressure? :laugh:
ilferrari
11-27-12, 08:10 AM
Alonso lost the championship when he got taken out in Belgium and Japan. He and his team did a flawless job with a car that was way off the pace. Would have been a great achievement if he won it this year.
chop456
11-27-12, 08:46 AM
I'd look at Raikkonen's accomplishment of finishing ahead of 1 Red Bull, a Ferrari and both McLarens as FAR more impressive than anything Alonso did.
Rogue Leader
11-27-12, 09:44 AM
I would say that Vettel won the championship fair and square and is one of the best of our time. Fricking amazing driver. But Alonso was even better this season, took his midpacker car to the podium so much he was in contention in the last race, when his car did not deserve to be. Probably had the third best car after Red Bull and McLaren.
So I would have to say that Alonso showed how great he is this year.
I agree, Alonso's season was a combination of bad luck and a car that wasn't all that great. Had he not been taken out in Belgium and Japan he would be WDC right now. As well if his car was a bit better. Yeah the car had a late season surge of performance, but the RB's were still faster and more consistent.
I'd look at Raikkonen's accomplishment of finishing ahead of 1 Red Bull, a Ferrari and both McLarens as FAR more impressive than anything Alonso did.
Not to mention the fact that he's now doing hair care commercials.
THERE we go! A little F-1 chatter:thumbup: Not that anyone cares but I don't give a rip about who whines or acts like a spoiled baby OR who can take it like a man. I focus on the driving and who I think is doing the best job...ONE RACE AT A TIME. Everybody has their (teams, cars AND drivers) ups and downs, good luck, bad luck...whatever...and Vettel is certainly a deserving champ but Alonso is a better driver.:p I also disagree with those who diminish Massa OR Ferrari and hope for another great and safe season next year! Have to say, since the demise of CART/ChampCar I find my interest in F-1 ramping up again, even if it will never equal the attention I used to give it.:) (I think the Austin anticipation had a lot to do with that. So, was it a financial success or not? I sure hope it sticks!)
PS...any suggestions for an updated Kimi T-Shirt? :D (I have NEVER seen anything like that before in F-1)
extramundane
11-27-12, 10:48 AM
http://i.imgur.com/d6T3f.png
WickerBill
11-27-12, 11:58 AM
Alonso's reasons for being second in the championship, in order:
1. Bulletproof reliability
2. The opposite for RB and McLaren
3. Launch control
4. Great driver
Yeah, he's an amazing driver, but holy crap everything fell his way at about 12 races this year. If you say he's better than Vettel, I would have agreed with you in 2010. But after seeing him get bogged down and unable to pass slower cars in really important situations, and then watching Vettel start from the back and get his car damaged at the end of this season, yet carve his way back to the front both times... I now firmly believe that Alonso is a *good* driver with amazing, some would say improbable, race starts that neutralize his car's average starting position. Vettel is pretty special.
There, that should spark some chatter
Hard Driver
11-27-12, 01:19 PM
http://i.imgur.com/d6T3f.png
Hilarious
http://i.imgur.com/d6T3f.png
"KIMI, TURN LEFT!"
"Leave me alone, I know what I am doing."
Alonso's reasons for being second in the championship, in order:
1. Bulletproof reliability
2. The opposite for RB and McLaren
3. Launch control
4. Great driver
Yeah, he's an amazing driver, but holy crap everything fell his way at about 12 races this year. If you say he's better than Vettel, I would have agreed with you in 2010. But after seeing him get bogged down and unable to pass slower cars in really important situations, and then watching Vettel start from the back and get his car damaged at the end of this season, yet carve his way back to the front both times... I now firmly believe that Alonso is a *good* driver with amazing, some would say improbable, race starts that neutralize his car's average starting position. Vettel is pretty special.
There, that should spark some chatter
The guy is a weasel, but I think you are way off on this. The RB's and the McLarens were much faster than the Ferraris. I would say Alonso in either one of their cars might have won the championship.
The amazing thing to me this season is that McLaren persisted with their no-number-one strategy even when it became clear that the two teams with clear number ones, RB and Ferrari, were going to win the driver's championship because of that. Is the hiring of Perez a sign that they are going to a more sensible strategy?
The other interesting thing is that the sweet spot between more emphasis on speed and more emphasis on reliability apparently fell somewhere between McLaren and Ferrari this year. It seems that if either of these teams would have moved more closely toward that sweet spot, they would have challenged RB for one or more of the championships.
Even RB were a little off center. A bit more focus on reliability would have made them runaway champions.
chop456
11-27-12, 02:32 PM
Alonso's reasons for being second in the championship, in order:
1. Bulletproof reliability
2. The opposite for RB and McLaren
3. Launch control
4. Great driver
Yeah, he's an amazing driver, but holy crap everything fell his way at about 12 races this year. If you say he's better than Vettel, I would have agreed with you in 2010. But after seeing him get bogged down and unable to pass slower cars in really important situations, and then watching Vettel start from the back and get his car damaged at the end of this season, yet carve his way back to the front both times... I now firmly believe that Alonso is a *good* driver with amazing, some would say improbable, race starts that neutralize his car's average starting position. Vettel is pretty special.
There, that should spark some chatter
Couldn't agree more. If my math is correct, Alonso picked up 2 positions in Brazil that weren't attrition-related. How many did Vettel pick up after being punted? And he did one additional pit stop. In a damaged car.
Fernando and his fans (and Algersuari),need to start dealing in reality. Yeah - I think he's an excellent driver, too. To suggest that he somehow deserved the championship more is beyond ridiculous.
What happened when he had a talented [rookie] teammate? He crumbled and ran away from his contract, afraid of not being given preferential treatment. Think he'd accept that challenge happily now?
Fastest laps this year NOT turned by a McLaren or Red Bull:
Kobayashi
Grosjean
Perez
Rosberg
Raikkonen
Schumacher
Senna
Hulkenberg
Maybe they could hand out a people's choice WDC award. Maybe a participant ribbon with an extra smiley face on it. :laugh:
So, what's wrong with being the best AND most popular!?:p (never suggested he was more deserving of the WDC, this year...just said he's a better driver.)
http://i.imgur.com/d6T3f.png
2fKCriIbeDA
Pilgrims Drop
11-27-12, 05:13 PM
My 2 cents on the fastest car discussion...
Australia: McLaren
Malaysia: Ferrari - McLaren were faster in the dry but when the rain came Ferrari was the car to have
China: Mercedes
Bahrain: Lotus - RBR got the win thanks to Vettel and the poor qualifying form of the Lotus squad
Spain: Williams - closely followed by McLaren, Lotus and Ferrari
Monaco: Mercedes
Kanada: McLaren/Ferrari - McLaren faster over 1 lap but the Ferrari were faster over the entire stints
Europe: RBR
UK: RBR
Germany: Ferrari
Hungary: Lotus - again poor quali cost them dearly
Belgium: McLaren/RBR
Italy: McLaren shadowed by Ferrari
Singapore: McLaren
Japan: RBR
Korea: RBR
India: RBR
Abu Dhabi: RBR/McLaren
USA: McLaren
Brazil: McLaren
So McLaren should've gone at it out head to head with RBR and probably come out ahead as they had the car of the season in my humble opinion... they were not the team to have though...
Ferrari almost proved the old adage "To finish first, first you have to finish" but they were hardly a much slower car than the RBR or McLaren... and as said above near bulletproof even though it had a weakness for black/gold coloured cars
Vettel got the most out of the RBR... and I just love all the pipe dreams all over the racing communities about yellow flags and that FIA gifted him the 3rd WDC... Wasn't a Vettel fan before... but all the crap that has been flung at him by spanish and british media/fans is sickening...
Driver of the year: Massa :thumbup:... showed in the latter part of the year that 2008 wasn't a fluke and that he could challenge and even outperform the "mighty" Alonso if allowed
Yeah, '08 WAS a fluke...a pouring Brazilian RAIN and tire FLUKE! See what I mean?... luck, ups and downs, situations NOT in one's control. I don't think I have ever felt worse for a driver and his dad than I did for Massa that day. In his home race, yet! What a scene of utter disbelief! Then that bouncing spring incident. Could have ended it all right there.:( I always wish him the best...EVERY time out.
stroker
11-27-12, 10:31 PM
Yeah, '08 WAS a fluke...a pouring Brazilian RAIN and tire FLUKE! See what I mean?... luck, ups and downs, situations NOT in one's control. I don't think I have ever felt worse for a driver and his dad than I did for Massa that day. In his home race, yet! What a scene of utter disbelief! Then that bouncing spring incident. Could have ended it all right there.:( I always wish him the best...EVERY time out.
Let's hope the last half of the season got his confidence back. He's no spring chicken any more. I'd love to see him come out of the gate in 2013 and lay some serious smack on the field.
Roh oh.
Ferrari are reportedly considering an appeal against the result of Sunday's Brazilian Grand Prix that could alter the outcome of this year's drivers' world championship.
The Italian team are "evaluating footage" that appears to show Red Bull's Sebastian Vettel overtaking a rival on a part of the circuit where yellow caution lights are being shown, according to the BBC.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2012/nov/28/ferrari-challenge-sebastian-vettel-f1
:\
opinionated ow
11-29-12, 08:23 AM
According to Autosport the FIA says Vettel has no case to answer. Can't link to it as I've used my 50 free reads for the month
I am sure the FIArrari will come to an equitable judgment. :laugh:
cameraman
11-29-12, 12:25 PM
McLaren (via the Jenson & Lewis Santander account) posted up on Facebook that Vettel did nothing wrong. In fact they put some effort into countering all the points raised by the tiffosi. I figure in McLaren is defending Red Bull...
They showed ONE clip about this on the race broadcast and said it was a yellow Pirelli sign...looked like it was illuminated to me??...then something was said about it being merely a "rain warning" light...never heard of that one before. All I'm saying is my reaction at the time was..."a blinking, illuminated, yellow, Pirelli advertising sign...at track level"???...:confused: Referenced this on post #19 AND noted the position was given back on a restart. Thought THAT was strange at the time, also. I THINK the broadcast stated it was KOB who was passed not VER? All I said at the time was, Hmmmmm....I say again, Hmmmmm. I'm certain some Italian court will sort this all out after they deal with Capt. Whatshisname. ( FIA says he was shown a green light and Ferrari has no basis for an appeal...and further states Paul Tracy did NOT win the Indy 500?) HA
opinionated ow
11-29-12, 06:26 PM
www.grandprix.com/ns/ns24688.html
The Vettel in-car camera shows the Red Bull passing Vergne despite his dashboard lights indicating a yellow flag situation and before he passes a green light signalling the end of the hazard.
However, between the exit of Turn 3 and Vettel passing the Toro Rosso, there is understood to have been a waved green flag at a marshal's post, confirmed by the FIA, which takes precedence over the dashoboard lights system, meaning that Vettel was at liberty to pass the Toro Rosso before he reached the green light, and is therefore in the clear.
cameraman
12-01-12, 11:23 AM
stPzkJCbMKE
Insomniac
12-01-12, 12:51 PM
Alonso's reasons for being second in the championship, in order:
1. Bulletproof reliability
2. The opposite for RB and McLaren
3. Launch control
4. Great driver
Yeah, he's an amazing driver, but holy crap everything fell his way at about 12 races this year. If you say he's better than Vettel, I would have agreed with you in 2010. But after seeing him get bogged down and unable to pass slower cars in really important situations, and then watching Vettel start from the back and get his car damaged at the end of this season, yet carve his way back to the front both times... I now firmly believe that Alonso is a *good* driver with amazing, some would say improbable, race starts that neutralize his car's average starting position. Vettel is pretty special.
There, that should spark some chatter
Vettel had 2 DNF for mechanical reasons which balance out Alonso's DNFs for crashes. Launch control is banned from the spec ECUs.
I recall the Red Bull not being as dominant in years past the first half of the season. Vettel was also getting the most out of his car to keep up with Alonso in the points. Newey/Red Bull got it together and they ripped off a great run of dominance. What would a list for Vettel look like?
1. Adrian Newey
2. Alonso bad luck (crashed out)
3. Clean air from qualifying
4. Great driver
:D
WickerBill
12-01-12, 10:57 PM
Launch control took someone THIS long to reply to? Geez. :) But of course, my point is that the Ferraris had amazing starts all season. Almost too good.
Insomniac
12-01-12, 11:05 PM
Launch control took someone THIS long to reply to? Geez. :) But of course, my point is that the Ferraris had amazing starts all season. Almost too good.
I've been a bit busy and missed the driver debate. :) If I owned a team, I'd take either knowing they'll get the most out of the car.
Isn't there some clutch trick teams use now?
They took lessons from John Force. :gomer:
WickerBill
12-02-12, 08:50 AM
They were incredible! I wish I had time to research, but I highly doubt Alonso lost a single spot all season between start and t1. Massa had blinders too. Meanwhile everyone else on the grid had at least a couple bad starts.
WickerBill
12-04-12, 05:46 PM
Presented without comment...
Alonso counts himself among greatest-ever drivers (http://formula-one.speedtv.com/article/f1-fernando-alonso-counts-himself-among-greatest-ever-drivers/)
Insomniac
12-05-12, 12:20 PM
Presented without comment...
Alonso counts himself among greatest-ever drivers (http://formula-one.speedtv.com/article/f1-fernando-alonso-counts-himself-among-greatest-ever-drivers/)
Even amid his title battle with Sebastian Vettel, the German media said Ferrari's Spaniard reverted to 'dirty tricks' to psychologically unsettle his adversary.
Does this basically make the German media non-credible? What are these dirty tricks? Can I use them to psychologically unsettle people?
Andrew Longman
12-05-12, 02:38 PM
Does this basically make the German media non-credible? What are these dirty tricks? Can I use them to psychologically unsettle people?
According to Truth in 24 II, Audi doing five stints on a set of tires "unsettled" the Peugeot team at 2011 Lemans. ;)
Or maybe they said "un-nerved"
Anyway, it supposedly through them off their game
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