Stopping the race - thoughts?

[Michaelhatesfans]

This is from someone who grew up in an era when raced were completed. Delayed or shortened, perhaps, but completed in some reasonable sense. Somewhere between Vegas and the Moto GP in Malaysia, I can't help but wonder if we've seen a precedent that the ticket buying (and traveling) public will go along with.

Note - negative points for stating that racing is dangerous. We've got that.

[Rogue Leader]

This is from someone who grew up in an era when raced were completed. Delayed or shortened, perhaps, but completed in some reasonable sense. Somewhere between Vegas and the Moto GP in Malaysia, I can't help but wonder if we've seen a precedent that the ticket buying (and traveling) public will go along with.

Note - negative points for stating that racing is dangerous. We've got that.

I haven't heard one peep in any news article about fans feeling stiffed that the races were stopped. I think the human side of everyone takes over, that as much as some people want to see crashes, when one happens and someone dies, they regret that feeling.

[Napoleon]

. . .the Moto GP in Malaysia,

Was that race stopped?

As to Vegas I personally chalk it up to unussual circumstances. You had around half the field eliminated along with such a long stoppage that the race basically would not be on TV and there was no plausable way to claim that you restarted the race without knowing that Dan had died.

[TKGAngel]

I haven't heard one peep in any news article about fans feeling stiffed that the races were stopped.

I remember reading that the series (I think) was refunding the cost of tickets for those people that actually paid for them.

[Ziggy]

while not a fan of this series, to me it's a non issue.

long delay, death, meaningless outcome.

Had they restarted, and had another big accident, and even worse one that took live (s)............

Black Sunday really happened in the annals of Autoracing......

[Ripped]

while not a fan of this series, to me it's a non issue.

long delay, death, meaningless outcome.

Had they restarted, and had another big accident, and even worse one that took live (s)............

Black Sunday really happened in the annals of Autoracing......

Pretty much my feelings too. I don't think any of the drivers could have concentrated after that anyway.

[miatanut]

Pretty much my feelings too. I don't think any of the drivers could have concentrated after that anyway.

Yup. I think driver/rider concentration is a serious issue.

After the disaster known as Indy '73, it was 1976 until I had the stomach to watch it again. If I was ever at a race that had a fatal accident, I would leave the track as soon as I knew that. There is no way I would be able to enjoy the remainder of the race, so what's the point of staying?

[Insomniac]

I don't think there was any reason to continue. This was unique in that it involved so many drivers. (NOTE: I didn't watch so I may be off on some of this.)

They red flagged it. Weren't the drivers out of their cars? They already had reservations. Did they stop it after they knew Dan had died? I think in most cases in the past where a driver died, the drivers never really knew. Once you know, you can't race.

Personally, I don't get the 5 lap tribute. It may be a racer/driver thing. But again, unusual circumstances.

[TKGAngel]

They red flagged it. Weren't the drivers out of their cars? They already had reservations. Did they stop it after they knew Dan had died? I think in most cases in the past where a driver died, the drivers never really knew. Once you know, you can't race

The drivers did exit their cars after the wreck. Those that were wrecked were helping each other out so as to allow the rescue personnel to focus on Dan. The non-wrecked cars headed back to the pits, changed tires, and then the drivers exited the cars. They only knew that it was going to be a long red flag because of the damage to the SAFER barrier and the catch fence. I think they knew Dan was hurt, but not the level of his injuries, as both Dario & Justin reported that they were told that DW was unconscious but had strong vitals. That either wasn't the case or things went wrong in a hurry.

[Michaelhatesfans]

Was that race stopped?

As to Vegas I personally chalk it up to unussual circumstances. You had around half the field eliminated along with such a long stoppage that the race basically would not be on TV and there was no plausable way to claim that you restarted the race without knowing that Dan had died.

Yes, Moto GP was abandoned after two laps, which is what has me wondering if maybe Vegas wasn't a one off, but rather a bigger change in the racing culture itself.

[SurfaceUnits]

Had they restarted, and had another big accident, and even worse one that took live(s)............
..

good point Zig, gomerati everwhere are claiming the field size played no part in Wheldon's death. They point out that the conflagration started up towards the front of the field. Their new motto is, "The IRL is so grate, we don't need 34 cars to have a big one, we could do it with only 12."

[G.]

Personally, I don't get the 5 lap tribute. It may be a racer/driver thing. But again, unusual circumstances.

One lap for each Million.

[emjaya]

I haven't heard one peep in any news article about fans feeling stiffed that the races were stopped. I think the human side of everyone takes over, that as much as some people want to see crashes, when one happens and someone dies, they regret that feeling.

The crowd in Sepang jeered and threw bottles on the track after they announced the Moto-GP race was cancelled. They weren't told a real lot, though, just there had been a crash and the race was cancelled.

[emjaya]

Personally, I don't get the 5 lap tribute. It may be a racer/driver thing. But again, unusual circumstances.

Better than what happened at Sepang. There, the whole thing just deflated into sorrow.

[Lux Interior]

I remember reading that the series (I think) was refunding the cost of tickets for those people that actually paid for them.

So it only ended up costing a few thousand then. Good.

[Andrew Longman]

It took a long time to fix the track and fence.

The championship consequences were already set.

What if someone else was hurt/killed on this silly track if the went back racing?

The TV window closing

What would be the point?

The only open issue was how to distribute the prize money. And the ICS dudes can do what they want.

[Michaelhatesfans]

I don't disagree with you, Andrew, I'm just thinking about the precedent that both Vegas and Moto GP have set. There was a time when drivers/riders just pressed on regardless of whatever disaster occured on the track or in some case even in the grandstands.

If the sport (or perhaps society) has moved past that, that's fine - I'm not in the mood to watch the rest of the race after something like that anyway. And how drivers in the past pressed on past obvious fatalities both on the track and in the stands, I'll never know.

But it has always been my belief that one day the IRL would manage a big enough tragedy that it would cast a shadow across the entire sport. Now with the attention that Vegas has gotten, and the Moto GP race being called after two laps, I'm thinking that I don't want to be a promoter trying to get people to plan their vacations around a motor race.

[Fio1]

It is an interesting question; I never though about it after the Indycar race, but did after the Moto GP one.

I fully agreed with the stoppage of the Indycar race. But, I did wonder about the Moto GP Race. They didn't stop it after Tomizawa or Kato were killed in the past. I wonder if how Vegas was handled had any influence on the Moto GP stoppage? Maybe, the fact that the championship was over was a factor, I don't know. Either way it was a correct decision and I doubt anyone would ever complain. If I paid and they'd issue a refund, I'd give the money to a family trust fund.

[Indy]

What would be the point?

And if they would think about what they are doing, that would be the justification to shut the whole damned thing down. There is no point to fake racing.

[emjaya]

It is an interesting question; I never though about it after the Indycar race, but did after the Moto GP one.

I fully agreed with the stoppage of the Indycar race. But, I did wonder about the Moto GP Race. They didn't stop it after Tomizawa or Kato were killed in the past. I wonder if how Vegas was handled had any influence on the Moto GP stoppage? Maybe, the fact that the championship was over was a factor, I don't know. Either way it was a correct decision and I doubt anyone would ever complain. If I paid and they'd issue a refund, I'd give the money to a family trust fund.

Dorna and the race organizers were heavily criticised for not stopping the race after Tomizawa crashed, plus the way he was dragged from the track.

The Moto2 at Sepang was red flagged two laps from the end due to a crash.

[Andrew Longman]

I don't disagree with you, Andrew, I'm just thinking about the precedent that both Vegas and Moto GP have set. There was a time when drivers/riders just pressed on regardless of whatever disaster occured on the track or in some case even in the grandstands.I'm with you in almost every other case I can think of, but in this case two thing in particular come to mind: The time it took to fix the track and fence ate up all the TV time and there was (in my mind anyway) serious questions about if the track itself was safe for these cars. On other tracks deaths happen, on this track maybe they happen too easily.

[Rogue Leader]

It is an interesting question; I never though about it after the Indycar race, but did after the Moto GP one.

I fully agreed with the stoppage of the Indycar race. But, I did wonder about the Moto GP Race. They didn't stop it after Tomizawa or Kato were killed in the past. I wonder if how Vegas was handled had any influence on the Moto GP stoppage? Maybe, the fact that the championship was over was a factor, I don't know. Either way it was a correct decision and I doubt anyone would ever complain. If I paid and they'd issue a refund, I'd give the money to a family trust fund.

Daijiro Kato didn't die instantly he was actually in a coma for 2 days following the wreck and died at the hospital. Tomizawa was likely killed instantly and they should have stopped the race and have been criticized for not. However in this particular instance Simoncelli was very visibly dead to anyone who had a view of it. I think in the end they would have been criticized heavily for not stopping the race for this one.

[Fio1]

Rogue Leader, thanks for clearing that up. Dorna did the correct thing this weekend.

In the future it depends on the circumstances and the event as well. Basically, cross that bridge when you get to it....No other way to put it. There are way too many variables to make a concrete law about it.

For example, If a crash happens on the first lap of the Le Mans 24 hours and a driver dies instantly, like Le Mans 1969 with John Woolfe, do they stop it and send 1/2 million people home? That's a tough one. Hopefully, that will never have to be addressed.

Dallenbach took heat for Fontana in 99 and also took heat for Texas that one year when it was way too dangerous. it's a tough decision. People will argue both ways. People are still questioning Imola 1994; if the event should have continued after Roland Ratzenberger was killed? The law in Italy states that if a competitor dies at the track, the event is nulled, but they kept him alive until he left the track. I think a lot has changed since then; pro-race series' sanctioning bodies now take precedence over organizers and track managers in making these kind of decisions.

[Rogue Leader]

Rogue Leader, thanks for clearing that up. Dorna did the correct thing this weekend.

In the future it depends on the circumstances and the event as well. Basically, cross that bridge when you get to it....No other way to put it. There are way too many variables to make a concrete law about it.

For example, If a crash happens on the first lap of the Le Mans 24 hours and a driver dies instantly, like Le Mans 1969 with John Woolfe, do they stop it and send 1/2 million people home? That's a tough one. Hopefully, that will never have to be addressed.

Dallenbach took heat for Fontana in 99 and also took heat for Texas that one year when it was way too dangerous. it's a tough decision. People will argue both ways. People are still questioning Imola 1994; if the event should have continued after Roland Ratzenberger was killed? The law in Italy states that if a competitor dies at the track, the event is nulled, but they kept him alive until he left the track. I think a lot has changed since then; pro-race series' sanctioning bodies now take precedence over organizers and track managers in making these kind of decisions.

Ratzenberger didn't die during the race though it was during practice so thats likely why that happened. Also as has been mentioned earlier its an unwritten rule that "no one dies at the race track" unless they are very obviously gone (decapitated, incinerated, etc). That said at Imola after Senna died, its arguable that maybe the race then should have been stopped.

In all of this though remember that was 17 years ago and it was a left over mentality that allowed the races to continue on. These days everyone is much more sensitive, and every race is on a worldwide television feed, coupled with the threat of lawsuits because people are sue happy these days. They would just rather take the hit with the fans at the track than open themselves up to constant second guessing of them, or a huge negative sentiment of fans and non fans.

[RTKar]

Vegas wasn't a one or two car wreck resulting in a death. It was a horrendous conflagration leaving drivers, who were already on edge about the track, stunned. I truly believe they did not want to continue and the stewards sensed it. Coupled with how long the cleanup took, along with repairs, it was a no brainer.

[Gnam]

For example, If a crash happens on the first lap of the Le Mans 24 hours and a driver dies instantly, like Le Mans 1969 with John Woolfe, do they stop it and send 1/2 million people home? That's a tough one. Hopefully, that will never have to be addressed.

They came pretty damn close this year. The two Audi shunts and the Corvette/Porsche incident were very violent.

At Le Mans, I would expect a team to withdraw if they lost a driver, but the race would continue as soon as the track was clear.

[Fio1]

Vegas wasn't a one or two car wreck resulting in a death. It was a horrendous conflagration leaving drivers, who were already on edge about the track, stunned. I truly believe they did not want to continue and the stewards sensed it. Coupled with how long the cleanup took, along with repairs, it was a no brainer.

That's true. The fact that 1/2 field was taken out. The violence of the crash. The barrier needed repair. The championship battle was over. There would be absolutely no point in restarting the race. I think maybe 10 out of the 19 guys/ girls left would have restarted anyways. Like you said, it was a no brainer.

[Rogue Leader]

They came pretty damn close this year. The two Audi shunts and the Corvette/Porsche incident were very violent.

At Le Mans, I would expect a team to withdraw if they lost a driver, but the race would continue as soon as the track was clear.

The last time I hard of a team withdrawing from Le Mans was Mercedes in 1999 after Mark Webber's CLR did a pirouette into the woods. They withdrew the other two and parked it for good.

[SurfaceUnits]

I'm amused that people give significance to anything IRL related.

[emjaya]

The last time I hard of a team withdrawing from Le Mans was Mercedes in 1999 after Mark Webber's CLR did a pirouette into the woods. They withdrew the other two and parked it for good.

Not quite, Webber first flipped his car during qualifying and then did it again during the morning warmup, this time destroying the car.

It was only after Paul Dumbreck flipped his car over live on tv that Mercedes withdrew the remaining car.

[SteveH]

I'm amused that people give significance to anything IRL related.

this

[Rogue Leader]

Not quite, Webber first flipped his car during qualifying and then did it again during the morning warmup, this time destroying the car.

It was only after Paul Dumbreck flipped his car over live on tv that Mercedes withdrew the remaining car.

Ahh the ol memory fails me.....