DeltaWang Debut

[racer2c]

Submitted without comment. It's too easy.
http://www.foxnews.com/slideshow/leisure/2011/09/30/deltawing-racing-car/#slide=1

[dando]

Submitted without comment. It's too easy.
http://www.foxnews.com/slideshow/leisure/2011/09/30/deltawing-racing-car/#slide=1

Where are the mirrors? :gomer:

-Kevin

[racer2c]

You know, jokes aside, we've gone through thread after thread of speculation of how this thing will perform and within the next few weeks it will take to the track so we can get a glimpse, but performance aside, I can't imagine how a driver will negotiate the sheer length of this thing. The nose will be around the apex of a tight corner when the rear is just entering it! Maybe they should hinge it!
How about in a crowd, tucking in behind a car in order to catch the corner line will be like maneuvering a river barge down the mississippi.

Put some skinny tires on it and take it to the salt flats where it belongs in the four banger unlimited class.

[cameraman]

Did it actually drive at speed?

[racer2c]

Did it actually drive at speed?

The accompanying article mentioned it will take to the track within the next few weeks and that the builders are shopping for an engine supplier, preferably American.

[SteveH]

b0Y6T4JxZCs

[racer2c]

What a bunch of BS. It's not "new technology"! Its simply a somewhat different shape. It's not innovation, it's experimentation just for the sake of headlines.
How about making a perfectly square car with 7 wheels and an onboard microwave ovan?

[opinionated ow]

I'm going to store a few months of laughs for when it rolles in Tertre Rouge on Lap 1.

[Elmo T]

It looks like they are unveiling a new ride-on car found at the Chuck-E-Cheese. Drop in a token and it rocks back a forth for a bit.

[Corner5]

There is new technology-

From an interview with Panoz-


Panoz joins forces with Ben Bowlby and DeltaWing Racing cars, back-to-back American Le Mans Series champions Highcroft Racing and US racing legend Dan Gurney whose All American Racers group will build the initial prototypes.

The DeltaWing will take on the famous French endurance classic with a car that has half the weight, half the aerodynamic drag and half the horsepower of a traditional prototype.

As part of that dramatic weight reduction, the car will utilize a new bodywork material called REAMS - a product developed by Panoz and his Elan Motorsport Technologies company based in Braselton, GA.

Q: WHAT IS REAMS AND HOW CAN IT BE USED IN MOTORSPORT?

A: “REAMS stands for Recyclable, Energy Absorbing, Matrix, System – it is a combination of a known product called “Tegris” and some other films and materials that we use at Elan Motorsport Technologies (EMT).
“Bound together you end up with a very strong bullet-proof material and it is easier to manufacture and much lighter than carbon fiber.

“Additionally, the other benefits include the fact that it doesn’t shatter on impact like carbon fiber and it is recyclable.
“It takes less energy to produce so there is less impact to the environment as well. It is not a structural material but it will withstand impact.
“With a heavy enough impact, carbon fiber will shatter, with other materials you end up with a heavy dent or crease, but with REAMS you can apply some heat from a heat gun or even a hair dryer and you can repair it.

“It really is an ideal material for use as bodywork on racing cars like the DeltaWing. REAMS really has a lot of great properties.
"

Q: HOW EASY IS THE PRODUCT TO PRODUCE?

A: “It needs to be baked in an autoclave like carbon fiber but the amount of energy required to complete the finished product is considerably less.
“The lay-up on the materials is very similar to making bodywork out of carbon fiber but the energy used and the amount of time it takes applying heat and pressure in the autoclave is much smaller.”
 


the rest-
http://americanlemans.com/primary1.php?cat=news|16158

Here's Dan Gurney's Q&A-


Q: NOT EVERYONE WELCOMED THAT DRAMATIC CHANGE BACK IN THE 60s. DO YOU SEE SOME SIMILARITIES TO FANS REACTION TO THE DELTAWING?
A: “When you have established favorites like the front-engined roadsters and all of a sudden a major change happens, it is human nature to probably be a little unhappy about it .
“People don’t always welcome change, especially when you have a home team attitude and here comes a group from somewhere else who had the capability to beat your guys.
“That had all the ingredients of a pretty bitter rivalry and of course the track owners loved it because the fans went crazy over it.
“If our initial predictions for the performance of the DeltaWing are correct there is a possibility we may something pretty similar.”

Q: YOU HAVE INFLUENCED SOME MAJOR CHANGES IN THE SPORT OVER THE YEARS. DO YOU SEE A SIMILAR OPPORTUNITY WITH THE DELTAWING?
A: “If there is something that can be a turning point in something like motor racing, then obviously it is very nice to be a part of that.
“I’m sure Ben (Bowlby) and Duncan (Dayton) feel the same way as well.
“We’d all like be mentioned in the history books in a positive way. I suppose I played a part in the transition that happened in Indy in the 60s and it is great to have this opportunity to be involved with something so different like the DeltaWing.”

Q: HOW SIGNIFICANT COULD THIS CAR BE IN CHANGING THE FACE OF THE SPORT?
A: “The ACO (Le Mans organizers – the Automobile Club de l'Ouest) having the foresight and wisdom and come up with the concept of the 56th garage is certainly the key to us having this opportunity.
“They should certainly be applauded and congratulated for that and we are certainly very appreciative for being selected.
“Rules that take away your freedom to innovate and compete are almost like a parasite on a tree. If it goes too far, the parasite dies along with the tree.
“I’m certainly an advocate of freedom in the rules. In many cases series organizers like coming up with new rules and restrictions to slow things down and it ends up hurting things.
“There is a huge effort towards things like electrical cars which is very attractive to our political leaders and obviously attracts a lot of financial support and subsidies.
“Efficiencies however, are not only available through electric powered vehicles. “Having grown up with the internal combustion engine running on gasoline or diesel, it was really like having a magic carpet and you could go anywhere you wanted.
“In the case of the DeltaWing, the shape of the car, the weight, the efficiencies, the technology – you have a car which remains an extremely viable option.
“That part I like a lot and I am very proud to be a part of this project as I believe the principles of the DeltaWing can also inspire the type of cars we drive on the road in the future.”

more here-
http://americanlemans.com/primary1.php?cat=news|15870

I can't wait to see it! I'm not surprised at the skeptics...but they will watch.

[racer2c]

A non structural material? wow!!! :gomer:

Hey, people race everything from lawn mowers to semi's, why not a flying Wang!
Of course I'll watch! Can't wait to see this 'thing' go!

[Indy]

So someone wants to try something new, and everyone laughs at him. Pretty much standard human stupidity on display. The equivalent of roadster gomers, and I think Dan Gurney implies as much.

I can't wait to see it, and I also can't help noticing that it is about 500 times as sexy as the new "indy car."

[Michaelhatesfans]

I hope someone is already on the phone for sponsors. Sybian, Viagra, KY... they're spoiled for choice, really.

[Michaelhatesfans]

The accompanying article mentioned it will take to the track within the next few weeks and that the builders are shopping for an engine supplier, preferably American.

Holy crap - when you design something that radical, people like me just kind of assume that you've already determined the power plant???:saywhat:

[Michaelhatesfans]

So someone wants to try something new, and everyone laughs at him. Pretty much standard human stupidity on display. The equivalent of roadster gomers, and I think Dan Gurney implies as much.

I can't wait to see it, and I also can't help noticing that it is about 500 times as sexy as the new "indy car."

Yes, joking aside, I agree with you. As I said elsewhere, as a spec car it's stupid. If they want to go to ALMS and race against real cars and see what it can do, more power to them.

[Gnam]

It looks like they are unveiling a new ride-on car found at the Chuck-E-Cheese. Drop in a token and it rocks back a forth for a bit.
:laugh:

hypothesis --> experiment --> conclusion.

But CFD and computer simulations are not enough evidence. Le Mans is a great way to test the theory. :thumbup:

[Rus'L]

So someone wants to try something new, and everyone laughs at him. Pretty much standard human stupidity on display. The equivalent of roadster gomers, and I think Dan Gurney implies as much.

I can't wait to see it, and I also can't help noticing that it is about 500 times as sexy as the new "indy car."

Ditto!

I just don't understand people's at times sheer hatred towards this thing.

Racing is all about new ideas. Some have appeared to be stupid. Some of those did turn out to be stupid. Some didn't.

The really silly *ss comments are those that think this thing won't run at speed at all. Really? Do you think all these reputable designers, builders, team managers suddenly become completely incompetent? Do you think they will just jump into this project without having done their homework, especially with today's computer simulations which can accurately predict about 99% of a design's outcome?

I think a lot of so-called armchair "experts" are going to have a lot of egg on their face.

Will it win Le Mans? Probably not. Will it go competitively fast? I suspect so.

[racer2c]

Ditto!

I just don't understand people's at times sheer hatred towards this thing.

Racing is all about new ideas. Some have appeared to be stupid. Some of those did turn out to be stupid. Some didn't.

The really silly *ss comments are those that think this thing won't run at speed at all. Really? Do you think all these reputable designers, builders, team managers suddenly become completely incompetent? Do you think they will just jump into this project without having done their homework, especially with today's computer simulations which can accurately predict about 99% of a design's outcome?

I think a lot of so-called armchair "experts" are going to have a lot of egg on their face.

Will it win Le Mans? Probably not. Will it go competitively fast? I suspect so.


Hatred? Such a strong word for this apathetic bunch, but anyway...

We wait with socks in hand. While I wait I'm reading again reading the Motoczysz history.

Add 2 more wheels to an Indy Car? Why not? Add a turbine to an Indy Car? Sure, lets do it! Energy regeneration systems? Hell yeah! Bring it on...I love eggs.

[Rus'L]

Hatred? Such a strong word for this apathetic bunch, but anyway...

;)

[Rocketdoc]

How is this thing going to handle its front roll couple forces?

There's some physics involved that sez as the divisor in the roll couple equation goes down (front track) the force necessary to react the roll couple goes up, and that means that controlling the dynamics (frequency) of this is going to be something very special... or it won't work.

Just my opinion.

[nrc]

I don't hate it. I just think it's ugly and I'm sceptical that it's a practical or competitive design.

[miatanut]

How is this thing going to handle its front roll couple forces?

There's some physics involved that sez as the divisor in the roll couple equation goes down (front track) the force necessary to react the roll couple goes up, and that means that controlling the dynamics (frequency) of this is going to be something very special... or it won't work.

Just my opinion.

Their concept is that the center of mass is far to the rear, so the front doesn't need much grip or generate much roll getting the thing turned. Also, some kind of fancy schmancy diff to help it turn. In the info they put out they said it would have a lot less front rotational chassis stiffness than normal because they didn't need it, and that would help them save some weight.

I'm looking forward to it. I would be nice to see the most off-the-wall thing we've seen since the '70's turn out to have merit.

[Rocketdoc]

What a bunch of BS. It's not "new technology"! Its simply a somewhat different shape. It's not innovation, it's experimentation just for the sake of headlines.
How about making a perfectly square car with 7 wheels and an onboard microwave ovan?

I like the square car idea and the 7 wheels, but it's a Microwave Oven, not "Ovan".

"Ovans" have something to do with ovaries or something... something located down there.... That makes no sense... keep on target, we rely on you to keep these ideas reasonable.
:tony:

[racer2c]

I like the square car idea and the 7 wheels, but it's a Microwave Oven, not "Ovan".

"Ovans" have something to do with ovaries or something... something located down there.... That makes no sense... keep on target, we rely on you to keep these ideas reasonable.
:tony:

Duly notes. I'm just happy we're in agreement. ;)

[racermike]

If by chance they get two drivers on the team, named Ace and Gary, then that would be hilarious if not scary.

[Corner5]

So someone wants to try something new, and everyone laughs at him. Pretty much standard human stupidity on display. The equivalent of roadster gomers, and I think Dan Gurney implies as much.

I can't wait to see it, and I also can't help noticing that it is about 500 times as sexy as the new "indy car."

Ditto!:thumbup:

[Corner5]

Ditto!

I just don't understand people's at times sheer hatred towards this thing.

Racing is all about new ideas. Some have appeared to be stupid. Some of those did turn out to be stupid. Some didn't.

The really silly *ss comments are those that think this thing won't run at speed at all. Really? Do you think all these reputable designers, builders, team managers suddenly become completely incompetent? Do you think they will just jump into this project without having done their homework, especially with today's computer simulations which can accurately predict about 99% of a design's outcome?

I think a lot of so-called armchair "experts" are going to have a lot of egg on their face.

Will it win Le Mans? Probably not. Will it go competitively fast? I suspect so.

Ditto,Ditto :thumbup:

Qab8Jkk3yNA

[racer2c]

So someone wants to try something new, and everyone laughs at him. Pretty much standard human stupidity on display. The equivalent of roadster gomers, and I think Dan Gurney implies as much.

I can't wait to see it, and I also can't help noticing that it is about 500 times as sexy as the new "indy car."

Talk is cheap. Put the car on the track.

Personally, I wouldn't describe anything with that particular shape as "sexy", but hey, if thats what you're into.:thumbup:

[Ziggy]

they had this "thing" at Road Atlanta

it steers like a Dixie Chopper, the amount of drive can be varied to the RR and LR wheel.

I think it sucks :thumdown:

[Corner5]

Here's a better look from Petit-

lPt5BUDeadk

I like it.:thumbup:

[TrueBrit]

Has it turned a wheel at speed in reality yet? Not on the sim, but actually on a track? I just don't see how that thing steers and/or stays glued to planet earth...???

[Elmo T]

Personally, I wouldn't describe anything with that particular shape as "sexy", but hey, if thats what you're into.:thumbup:

Wacky Racers?

http://i43.tinypic.com/35ipqfs.gif

[Rocketdoc]

Has it turned a wheel at speed in reality yet? Not on the sim, but actually on a track? I just don't see how that thing steers and/or stays glued to planet earth...???

I have some reservations about the whole concept, but I'm willing (as if that counted) to hold my water until it turns its wheels and doesn't hurt the driver.

Tricycles do not good racing cars make.

If the front end is relieved of handling the front roll forces, regardless of the longitudinal roll center position and global center of roll (its front/rear) and height position is relative to the roll axis, the torsional stiffness of the chassis will still need to handle considerable braking in roll.

In addition, the PR tech report says that the chassis material is this new lightweight material that is comparable to carbon fiber skinned honeycomb and carbon fiber fabric structures.
That's a "tall order" to contemplate. The current state of the art in lightweight structure design favors the high modulus of carbon fiber, the variety of forming it into optimized section properties and its very high stiffness. I try to keep current on spaceship design and materials issues, but if this wonder material exists at Panoz, it would seem that Don would have been selling this stuff to Boeing and Lockheed-Martin.

Again, I haven't seen the car in person nor read the specs. I'm anxious to see it put to the track.

[miatanut]

I try to keep current on spaceship design and materials issues, but if this wonder material exists at Panoz, it would seem that Don would have been selling this stuff to Boeing and Lockheed-Martin.


Q: HOW DID YOU GET INVOLVED IN THE PRODUCT?
A: “We have been involved in developing the product for a lot of government and military projects to help stop projectiles.


http://americanlemans.com/primary1.php?cat=news|16158

They don't name names, but based on that description, maybe they are.

[SteveH]

Don't have a link, this was posted elsewhere...


Q and A with Don Panoz on the Delta Wing LeMans car

American ingenuity showcased
Friday, August 26, 2011


When it comes to international sports car racing, Dr Don Panoz doesn't accept the status quo.
He resurrected sportscar racing in the US with the creation of the American Le Mans Series, his Panoz marque was the only brand to challenge the might of Audi in the early 2000s and now Panoz has joined forces with the Project 56 consortium that will take the new and unique DeltaWing car to the 24 Hours of Le Mans for the first time in 2011.

Panoz joins forces with Ben Bowlby and DeltaWing Racing cars, back-to-back American Le Mans Series champions Highcroft Racing and US racing legend Dan Gurney whose All American Racers group will build the initial prototypes.

The DeltaWing will take on the famous French endurance classic with a car that has half the weight, half the aerodynamic drag and half the horsepower of a traditional prototype.

As part of that dramatic weight reduction, the car will utilize a new bodywork material called REAMS is a product developed by Panoz and his Elan Motorsport Technologies company based in Braselton, GA.


Q: WHAT IS REAMS AND HOW CAN IT BE USED IN MOTORSPORT?
A: “REAMS stands for Recyclable, Energy Absorbing, Matrix, System – it is a combination of a known product called “Tegris” and some other films and materials that we use at Elan Motorsport Technologies (EMT).“Bound together you end up with a very strong bullet-proof material and it is easier to manufacture and much lighter than carbon fiber.
“Additionally, the other benefits include the fact that it doesn’t shatter on impact like carbon fiber and it is recyclable.
“It takes less energy to produce so there is less impact to the environment as well. It is not a structural material but it will withstand impact.
“With a heavy enough impact, carbon fiber will shatter, with other materials you end up with a heavy dent or crease, but with REAMS you can apply some heat from a heat gun or even a hair dryer and you can repair it.
“It really is an ideal material for use as bodywork on racing cars like the DeltaWing. REAMS really has a lot of great properties."

Q: HOW EASY IS THE PRODUCT TO PRODUCE?
A: “It needs to be baked in an autoclave like carbon fiber but the amount of energy required to complete the finished product is considerably less.
“The lay-up on the materials is very similar to making bodywork out of carbon fiber but the energy used and the amount of time it takes applying heat and pressure in the autoclave is much smaller.”

Q: HOW DID YOU GET INVOLVED IN THE PRODUCT?
A: “We have been involved in developing the product for a lot of government and military projects to help stop projectiles.
“Our people at EMT saw that by adding other layers of material would not only mask the weave of carbon fiber which can show through under paint, but we found that this really enabled us to stop a projectile and could make the product much lighter.
"The methodology and process of utilizing Tegris and other laminated elements to produce REAMS has been patented by EMT."

Q: WITH THE DELTAWING BEING HALF THE WEIGHT OF A TRADITIONAL RACING CAR, DOES R.E.A.M.S. BECOME THE IDEAL MATERIAL TO PRODUCE THE BODYWORK?
A: “Absolutely – it is like reading from the script. It can be up to 50 per cent lighter. We generally promote a number of 75 per cent but in some of the tests we’ve done for bodywork, rather than military applications, we can produce a fender that is 50 per cent lighter and you can jump up and down on and not damage it.”

Q: HOW DIFFICULT IS IT TO BUILD THE ORIGINAL MOLDS USED TO MANUFACTURE THE BODYWORK?
A: “Making a mold to use for a part made out of REAMS, compared to carbon fiber, is much simpler.
“The material doesn’t need the same levels of heat and pressure when placed in the autoclave so the original build of the mold is much faster and considerably cheaper.”

Q: HOW EXCITED ARE YOU TO BE INVOLVED IN THE DELTAWING PROJECT?
A: “I think the DeltaWing is a great opportunity and we are very excited to work with Ben Bowlby on the project. We know from our involvement with IndyCar racing that he is an exceptional engineer.
“What is exciting for EMT is the fact that Ben is looking to produce this car with fairly traditional construction methods – now adding REAMS to the project provides even more leeway to be even lighter or move the weight distribution around to exactly where you want it.
“This really could be a great leap forward for the sport. If you can build a car that is lighter and needs less horsepower then that provides significant “green” improvements, which is what the American Le Mans Series is all about.
“When you throw REAMS in the mix it makes things even better – particularly for the tracks. One of the biggest problems you have with on-track impacts is the pieces of shattered carbon fiber littering the track and causing tire punctures.
“This doesn’t happen with REAMS.”

Q: HOW GREAT A FIT IS THE DELTAWING AND THE AMERICAN LE MANS SERIES WHEN IT COMES TO HIGHLIGHTING GREEN RACING?
A: “When you look at what we try to achieve in the ALMS with alternative fuels and other methods to maintain performance using less energy, certainly this car does that even if it is using a conventional gasoline engine.
“You only need half the horsepower and subsequently half the fuel so in that sense it is certainly far more energy efficient.
“When you add the components which are less expensive – bodywork, smaller more cost-effective engines – it really is a great mix for green racing.”

SPECIFICATIONS
Weight: 475kg
Horsepower: 300 BHP
Wheel base: 2.9 m
Drag: Cd 0.24
Front track: 0.6m
Rear track: 1.7m
Length: 4.65 m
Width: 2.00m
Height: 1.03 m
Brakes: Carbon discs/pads
Tank capacity: 40 liters
Chassis: lightweight composite
Front tire: 4.0/23.0 R15
Rear tire: 12.5/24.5 R15
Front: 27.5%
Rear: 72.5%

[NismoZ]

:)

[racer2c]

'green racing' is like sex with Bif's sister. Sure you're having sex, but it with Bif's sister. :gomer:

[miatanut]

I see it as a new area that can be left wide-open for people to try funky new ideas:

'You've got this much energy you can spend to go the distance. Any fuel type. Any engine type. Go for it!'

[opinionated ow]

'green racing' is like sex with Bif's sister. Sure you're having sex, but it with Bif's sister. :gomer:
Yep. Like everything 'green' it is ideological bullcrap

I see it as a new area that can be left wide-open for people to try funky new ideas:

'You've got this much energy you can spend to go the distance. Any fuel type. Any engine type. Go for it!'

I'm not interested in that whatsoever.

[Rocketdoc]

http://americanlemans.com/primary1.php?cat=news|16158

They don't name names, but based on that description, maybe they are.

In its description of this semi-structural material that they've posed as an alternative to carbon-fiber, it seems that their description is defining a ballistic type material, which unless used as a core material in honeycomb structure has never served as a primary structural material.

Although I'm anxious to see it work, I'm getting the feeling that it's mostly smoke and mirrors.

[miatanut]

In its description of this semi-structural material that they've posed as an alternative to carbon-fiber, it seems that their description is defining a ballistic type material, which unless used as a core material in honeycomb structure has never served as a primary structural material.

Although I'm anxious to see it work, I'm getting the feeling that it's mostly smoke and mirrors.

I was interpreting it as semi-structural used for the skins of a honeycomb which would be used for bodywork and could accept some degree of aero loads and transfer them to structural parts of the monocoque. Or maybe with that big tubular nose, it can do the whole job. In aeronautics, it sounds like it can stop a projectile which would pierce carbon fiber, and do it for a reasonable amount of weight.

I agree they are being pretty vague about it. We'll see.

[Gnam]

I would like to see them demonstrate the strength properties of this new material by shooting a tank round into a DeltaWing. :p

[G.]

I see it as a new area that can be left wide-open for people to try funky new ideas:

'You've got this much energy you can spend to go the distance. Any fuel type. Any engine type. Go for it!'


Yep. Like everything 'green' it is ideological bullcrap


I'm not interested in that whatsoever.I find it interesting, but it really isn't what I'd call "racing".

The technical challenges of say, the Veolia Solar challenge are damn cool, and it is actually a race (cover a set distance in the shortest amount of time), but I wouldn't consider it a spectator sport.

Maybe that's the difference.

Back on topic, when does the Wang turn its first wheel in miffed? (can't say "in anger" quite yet) :gomer:

[chop456]

Slight irritation?

[NismoZ]

*

[Gnam]

Any word on engine?

Perhaps a wankel.

[racer2c]

They should go full electric.

[gerhard911]

They should go full electric chair.

Take Crusty Wallace's advice :\

[racer2c]

Take Crusty Wallace's advice :\

And...

[gerhard911]

"I wouldn't get out of an electric chair to drive one of those cars."

[Ziggy]

of course Rusty would never participate in a series unless there are a couple of guys named Dale involved :tony:

[High Sided]

edited after second thoughts of my funny but rude comment on green sex with Bif's sister.

[Corner5]

Who cares what Rusty Wallace thinks!?!?


http://www.mariantic.co.uk/lmp/images/377313_2755347003783_1260935809_33140017_33207654_ n.jpg

[NismoZ]

Four wheel steer?:)

[Corner5]

Christmas Card from Lola-

http://www.mariantic.co.uk/lmp/images/xmas_top2.jpg

[NismoZ]

Geez, look how WIDE that front end is! Gonna have to push a lot of air out of the way. Maybe somebody should design a car with a very narrow front track and slick bodywork!:gomer:

[miatanut]

Laugh all you want.

It will turn times competitive with P2's using less fuel than the GT's. We'll get a little trip back to when racing was fun because people were trying out all kinds of funky ideas, some of which worked, some of which didn't.

[NismoZ]

Sorry, that :gomer:was for ME not AAR, Duncun Dayton OR the 'wang. I love the concept and anxiously await a successful debut. But then I was a huge fan of STP, Parnelli Jones and the Whooshmobile and was mightily disappointed when it broke with victory in sight. Shaking up the established order is sometimes fun to watch and even without that near-instant success the turbine was effectively legislated out of existence. Knowing the French I can't imagine them NOT doing something similar if it happens in this case. Success doesn't always mean a win, does it? Go 'wang!:thumbup:

[miatanut]

:thumbup:

[opinionated ow]

Laugh all you want.

It will turn times competitive with P2's using less fuel than the GT's. We'll get a little trip back to when racing was fun because people were trying out all kinds of funky ideas, some of which worked, some of which didn't.

I will laugh right up until it tries to turn a corner and then I'll laugh some more. I would not drive that thing fast. The front track is so narrow that it'd be sooooooooooooo sensitive to any direction input.

[stroker]

I'm sure somebody must have made this observation before but I don't remember seeing it. If ever a car called for sponsorship from Trojans, that's it.

[NismoZ]

See, that's what my gut tells me too, OW, but I'm not an engineer and I hope I'm wrong, that's all. I do NOT want to sound like all those old USAC types who, when I was in my race-fan infancy, trashed everything from roadsters to roll bars and road racing, to full coverage helmets...to disc brakes, to rear engines, anything green, foreign or...oh, SUCCESSFUL! What is the threat of the Delta Wing? That it proves a race car design that is less powerful, more aerodynamic, lighter, stronger and gets better mileage... can go farther in 24 hours than a big honkin' turbo Diesel? I'm OK with that. I grew up watching guys like Augie Pabst blast down a straightaway in a big American V-8 front engined sports car and I loved it! BUT... within 2 years a kid named Penske took about TEN seconds off Augie's RA lap record...in a smaller, lighter, less powerful, more aerodynamic, rear engined "sports" car. Of course it was really an F-1 single seater with fenders and the SCCA banned it, but it wasn't long before we had a real revolution in racing. I'm ready for another one.

[NismoZ]

Yep, we lovingly call it The D'Wang for a reason!:)

[miatanut]

I will laugh right up until it tries to turn a corner and then I'll laugh some more. I would not drive that thing fast. The front track is so narrow that it'd be sooooooooooooo sensitive to any direction input.

I guess you'll get the opportunity. I hope that day will be an epiphany for you, as you get to see what we old farts go on about the good old days when folks showed up at the track with stuff that wasn't a bunch of clones and they could actually race with each other, because they had different strengths and weaknesses.

[Gnam]

I too await the Dwang debut. Although the concept and performance claims seem ridiculous, innovation is always welcome. I would like to see one run through the Corkscrew at Laguna Seca. :cool:

http://img846.imageshack.us/img846/1961/2011mrlsfront.jpg

[NismoZ]

Uh oh, looks like Santini Clausini is about to take "the Zanardi Line":eek:

[Rocketdoc]

Geez, look how WIDE that front end is! Gonna have to push a lot of air out of the way. Maybe somebody should design a car with a very narrow front track and slick bodywork!:gomer:

Drag area and CD (Drag Coefficient) is proportional to frontal area, not how pointy it is.

[nrc]

Yep. Frontal counts as frontal even if you move it closer to the backal.

[miatanut]

Drag area and CD (Drag Coefficient) is proportional to frontal area, not how pointy it is.

CD is proportional to frontal area. That's a new one on me. My understanding is that while total drag is proportional to frontal area times CD (and some other parameters), CD is related to how "slippery" something is.

If pointy didn't make any difference, rockets and airplanes would be shaped like a beer cans and the tooling, construction, etc. would be a lot cheaper than it is making them pointy, but it does, so obviously there's an advantage in being pointy. Fish and birds would probably also look a bit different if being pointy didn't help.

On the other hand, a railroad train is going to have a CD well above 1.0 (with all the gaps and bumps they are anything but slippery), but one of the key things that make it efficient is each rail car operating in the draft of the car ahead (and receiving a drag reduction from the car behind), so CD for the whole train doesn't tell the whole story.

Care to elaborate on how pointy makes no difference?

[Methanolandbrats]

http://www.grc.nasa.gov/WWW/K-12/airplane/drageq.html Pointy does matter and ....(Tall x wide) / pointy..... goes in the coefficient which is determined experimentally.

[NismoZ]

So, isn't the point(y) of the slick/narrow front end, which is actually relatively blunt, to punch a smaller hole and rout air around the fat rear and "make it go faster"... and increase mileage? Seems like your description would mean all those wind deflectors and sloped fenders and hoods on those semis I see every day are pointless? Aren't the tires the biggest drag factor in open wheelers? Recall the tiny tires on The Can Am Shadow and the 4 little tires on the front of that F-1 Tyrrell? Less drag in front, same fat ass in rear? Certainly air flow is important as well as frontal area? I can't believe the D'wang shape won't somehow work better than that fat-fronted Lola even IF they had the same frontal area, including the backal.

[NismoZ]

Oh, I like that "determined experimentally"! That's what Project 56 is doing, right? First really aero big truck I saw was Penske's transporter in the paddock at RA. Wonder what year that was? Looks like that experimenting REALLY aided the trucking industry!

[Elmo T]

Well, it has tires now.

MICHELIN DELIVERS FIRST TIRES TO DELTAWING (http://americanlemans.com/primary1.php?cat=news|16471)

[Methanolandbrats]

Took a while to find a rubber that would fit it.

[Ankf00]

So, isn't the point(y) of the slick/narrow front end, which is actually relatively blunt, to punch a smaller hole and rout air around the fat rear and "make it go faster"... and increase mileage? Seems like your description would mean all those wind deflectors and sloped fenders and hoods on those semis I see every day are pointless? Aren't the tires the biggest drag factor in open wheelers? Recall the tiny tires on The Can Am Shadow and the 4 little tires on the front of that F-1 Tyrrell? Less drag in front, same fat ass in rear? Certainly air flow is important as well as frontal area? I can't believe the D'wang shape won't somehow work better than that fat-fronted Lola even IF they had the same frontal area, including the backal.

as long as there's a fat rear there's a negative pressure zone resulting in large amounts of drag. but, yes, exposed tires do create significant drag

[Rex Karz]

If Peter O'Toole were a race car driver, he should be in the seat of this Thang.

[extramundane]

Not exactly lightning fast but...

eQOXiRU4orc

[opinionated ow]

i'm gonna say it even if you call me a hater, it looks to me like it was riding heavily on that left rear tyre. Kinda reminds me of this...
_bIn_ZgHJaE

[Elmo T]

Onboard - still seems like they aren't pushing it very hard.

3wlQAvEfmeI#!

[Trevor Longman]

Still ugly but it turns quite a bit better than I expected it to though. Makes me mad cause I REALLY don't want this to work.

[opinionated ow]

Still ugly but it turns quite a bit better than I expected it to though. Makes me mad cause I REALLY don't want this to work.

Still too hard to tell from that video. The onboard doesn't show what's going on

[extramundane]

Still ugly but it turns quite a bit better than I expected it to though. Makes me mad cause I REALLY don't want this to work.

If they decide to let it run in an existing class AND Panoz doesn't divert any more money that should go to the series (insert uproarious laughter here), then I'm fine with it.

If they go with a Spec Wang class, then napalm it all.

[NismoZ]

Ok, it has Nissan power and backing. Marino Franchitti has had it above 300kph. Says he has to hit the apex with the rear wheels.:D It handles well! 73/27 weight distribution! Go 'Wang! Is this project a GO for Sebring?

[NismoZ]

Oooo...good new videos. Just Google WSJ car blog Deltawing.

[Easy]

I'd imaging that it will require a slightly unique driving style, but a real pro will be able to figure that out. All cars need slightly different approaches to be maximized.

[Methanolandbrats]

This is a racing car. It has a big motor and it's loud.

http://www.corvetteblogger.com/images/content/2012/021012_1.jpg

Once racing is taken over by saving fuel, efficiency and environmental impact concerns we'll end up with a field of electric lawn darts. I hope all you guys who get moist thinking about the Delta Wang enjoy it. :yuck:

[Elmo T]

DeltaWang on the front page at lemans.org (http://www.lemans.org/en/) today.

Darren Cox (Nissan) : 'Something much bigger' (http://www.lemans.org/en/news/darren-cox-nissan--something-much-bigger-_6449.html)


"The gearbox electronics are extremely innovative. The car can run a torque vectoring system, which is unusual on a racecar - normally it's banned but this car is outside rules and regulations so we can use this technology, which is relevant to our road cars." :confused:

Isn't it easy to create a car that doesn't meet the rules?

This was amusing though:


Look at Audi's Le Mans 24 Hours last year - a multi-million Euro programme, a decade of knowledge, the best drivers. Two cars out by midnight. They had three bullets in the gun. Nissan DeltaWing has one. All it takes is a German dentist in a Porsche turning in on us at the wrong time to end our race. That's the beauty of Le Mans. But, whatever happens, we will learn from it. :rofl:

[Methanolandbrats]

:laugh: And at least it is one of the few real races that will be televised live in the good ol' Land of Cabs. :thumbup:

Can't wait to see this, an apparent variation on the GT-3 Hybrid
http://www.fourtitude.com/news/publish/Motorsport_News/article_7462.shtml

[Gnam]

Does the deltawang use the "torque vectoring system" to help turn the car like a tractor or a tank?

Does it drive the outside wheel faster and slow the inside wheel to rotate the nose through the turns?

[NismoZ]

Moist, hell...I will absolutely ERUPT...multiple times!...IF this thing works as designed. If racing is about the sights and sounds then you go to the Reno Air Races. If you want to go fast you show up in an F-16 or something. I would applaud loudly, and often, if this thing just motors on as your big yellow honker comes in for a guzzle every 43 minutes. That Concorde SST sure was fast, but it wasn't too efficient, was it? Last time I checked taking a stagecoach west was not the best way to get there! If the 'Wang gets banned for doing it's job TOO well...then we'll know it was a success! (But then all auto racing would instantly become vintage racing! And, gee, no movable wings, skirts, sucker motors, flaps, KERS, P2P, 12 cylinders, 6 wheels...just more...with LESS! I mentioned it before...I am ready for another revolution in racing and I don't mean the kind :tony: brought us.

[NismoZ]

Public debut TOMORROW at Sebring. I expect unbiased eyewitness accounts from you people who will be there to see history in the making...MAYBE.:D

[Methanolandbrats]

Moist, hell...I will absolutely ERUPT...multiple times!...IF this thing works as designed. If racing is about the sights and sounds then you go to the Reno Air Races. If you want to go fast you show up in an F-16 or something. I would applaud loudly, and often, if this thing just motors on as your big yellow honker comes in for a guzzle every 43 minutes. That Concorde SST sure was fast, but it wasn't too efficient, was it? Last time I checked taking a stagecoach west was not the best way to get there! If the 'Wang gets banned for doing it's job TOO well...then we'll know it was a success! (But then all auto racing would instantly become vintage racing! And, gee, no movable wings, skirts, sucker motors, flaps, KERS, P2P, 12 cylinders, 6 wheels...just more...with LESS! I mentioned it before...I am ready for another revolution in racing and I don't mean the kind :tony: brought us.

More with less, sounds like hippee racing. 1000 horsepower, is that too much? :D 1.5 turbo F1 motors of turbo era, Can Am big block, 20,000 rpm V10 Ferrari, them are racin' motors.

[NismoZ]

C'mon, what are you complaining about? That little DeltaJuke is a 1.SIX! Piquet might have had 3X the hp but I bet he couldn't get 900kph out of it! Even on that rocket fuel! See? EFFICIENCY...it's the wave of the future!:) Don't you listen to the Voltswagon ads? "We can't live without it."...Now I think I want to :yuck:

[NismoZ]

And don't forget, "NISMO has been involved in the project from the beginning." How can it miss!?:D Thus the Super GT/Michael Krumm connection.:thumbup:

[miatanut]

This is a racing car. It has a big motor and it's loud.

http://www.corvetteblogger.com/images/content/2012/021012_1.jpg

Once racing is taken over by saving fuel, efficiency and environmental impact concerns we'll end up with a field of electric lawn darts. I hope all you guys who get moist thinking about the Delta Wang enjoy it. :yuck:

If the rules were 'you get this many KJ to go the distance, it has to pass our crash tests, something or another to keep costs from getting too crazy, go to it boys!', we would get the kind of fun we had with CanAm. Part of the appeal of CanAm was they sounded wicked (a LOT more wicked than the Corvette), but a big part of it was the constant flow of new ideas.

I'm ready for some more new ideas.

For me, the best looking race cars ever were the late '60's open wheelers. The CanAm cars were mostly ugly, though innovative. One big difference between those two formulae was one was trying to minimize drag while the other didn't give a rip about drag and was trying to maximize downforce. The last three decades have been about maximizing downforce. How about giving that a break in at least one series and going back to minimizing drag?

[Methanolandbrats]

^^^ I'd love to see downforce limited with insane horsepower. A car should be hard to drive because it relys on mechanical grip. That means you can break the tires loose at 100 mph + :thumbup: That is why I do not like the intrusion of "green", "roadcar relevence", "more with less" or any other environmental crap in racing. The result wlll be a reliance on fuel conservation rather than raw power and that will mean no more big horsepower series.

[extramundane]

And don't forget, "NISMO has been involved in the project from the beginning."

Which is pretty odd, considering the "Nissan" engine is actually the Chevy Cruze WTCC engine.

[NismoZ]

So, Chevy runs a Juke engine in WTCC? A Nismo Cruz?

[miatanut]

^^^ I'd love to see downforce limited with insane horsepower. A car should be hard to drive because it relys on mechanical grip. That means you can break the tires loose at 100 mph + :thumbup: That is why I do not like the intrusion of "green", "roadcar relevence", "more with less" or any other environmental crap in racing. The result wlll be a reliance on fuel conservation rather than raw power and that will mean no more big horsepower series.
That would describe drag racers. Problem if it was all out like that, it would make the '60's look positively safe by comparison. If you had an energy limit, any fuel you like, the cars WOULD be loafing along some of the time, but one consequence of that is drivers could pass any time they wanted, which wouldn't be bad. Truth is, listen to them on the radio now. It isn't balls to the wall for the full distance. They have lap time targets for fuel or tire preservation as it is now. It wouldn't be that different.

If somebody showed up with a dinky, slippery car with a 1.0 L turbo together with flywheel energy recovery, exhaust gas energy recovery, some way to get useful energy out of the cooling water they could design for a lower top speed, spend more energy on generating downforce and play the momentum game. Another car could take a big engine, low downforce approach and go like stink on the straight and take it easy in the corners. Maybe even have to coast a bit before braking to conserve fuel, kind of like the old days when the brakes couldn't handle full-on braking for every corner.

Cars with different capabilities. REAL racing would return.

Put an energy limit on it and you could throw the rules pretty much wide open and the cars still couldn't develop excessive speeds. If they get going to fast, you drop the energy limit.

[extramundane]

So, Chevy runs a Juke engine in WTCC? A Nismo Cruz?

No, it's an RML-built engine- Chevy's rights to it only pertain to WTCC. It has nothing to do with the Juke engine, which the Nissan guy admitted in one of the Deltawing pressers, despite their attempts to tie them together.