Aluminum @ The Brickyard [Archive]

TKGAngel

07-31-11, 02:35 PM

opinionated ow

07-31-11, 08:24 PM

I've not seen it, but doesn't IMS have 500,000 seats?

NismoZ

07-31-11, 08:39 PM

Not seats, but Id say 100,000+ more people could easily have found a place to sit today. I don't say that with glee, either. One begins to wonder if ANYthing will "bounce back.":(

Indy

08-01-11, 08:42 AM

Pure awesomeness from Ed Hinton.

http://espn.go.com/racing/nascar/cup/story/_/id/6820961/nascar-magic-indianapolis-motor-speedway-eroding-more-year

Andrew Longman

08-01-11, 08:46 AM

I watched the last 60+/- laps and it seems they actually have done what was needed to produce decent racing in a stock car there. Actual passing. Lots of driver skill through the corners -- sawing at the wheel. A bit of strategy.

But it is just another race on an already long and dull NASCAR schedule. And it is just another race at IMS.

Listening to Sir Jackie on WT last night, he reminded me that in the day, Indy was by far the richest paying race in the world. He was talking about why he never hesitated to accept an invitation to race at Indy.

Indy's failure, TG's failure, was to not do what was necessary to keep the 500 the "richest race in the world". In part that meant not nickle and diming on the purse but it also meant keeping the race an attractive place to conduct racing business. If a driver like Jackie Stewart is there then EVERYBODY's sponsorship is worth more and it is easier to get more Jackie Stewarts to come.

Instead, TG thought it was important to have the likes of Donnie Beechler and GoGo Gozek there and bought cars for them to race. :shakehead. I guess that was cheaper than just raising the purse.

dando

08-01-11, 09:29 AM

Pure awesomeness from Ed Hinton.

http://espn.go.com/racing/nascar/cup/story/_/id/6820961/nascar-magic-indianapolis-motor-speedway-eroding-more-year

Speaking of Hinton, did you read the tribute piece he wrote about his recently deceased wife?

http://espn.go.com/racing/story/_/id/6806537/snow-hinton-life-worth-loving

-Kevin

dando

08-01-11, 09:32 AM

Jayski had rumblings last weekend that NASCAR was having issues selling tickets for this race. Race attendance has been dropping since the 2008 tire fiasco race.

It was thought that yesterday's all-driver autograph session would help put more butts in the seats. It doesn't appear to have worked that way. It looks like there's one grandstand in either turns 2 or 3 that is completely empty.

NASCAB is having problems getting fannies into seats everywhere these days. When Bristol needs to advertise to sell tix, that's telling. It used to be unpossible to get a ticket to either Bristol race. Hotels as far away as Bluefield, WV and Wytheville, VA used to sell out for the races as well. Not any more.

-Kevin

indyfan31

08-01-11, 10:14 AM

Pure awesomeness from Ed Hinton.

http://espn.go.com/racing/nascar/cup/story/_/id/6820961/nascar-magic-indianapolis-motor-speedway-eroding-more-year

It's a very good article but I don't agree with this:

"So the 400 is the race that gutted the Indy 500 of its prestige, and nearly destroyed major open-wheel racing in America all together."

NASCAR didn't put a gun to Tony George's head, he took the money willingly, and he alone is responsible for the demise of open wheel racing.

dando

08-01-11, 10:40 AM

It's a very good article but I don't agree with this:

"So the 400 is the race that gutted the Indy 500 of its prestige, and nearly destroyed major open-wheel racing in America all together."

NASCAR didn't put a gun to Tony George's head, he took the money willingly, and he alone is responsible for the demise of open wheel racing.

That statement may be a bit strong as a direct correlation to US OW's decline, but it was the tipping point that started the decline @ IMS, C^RT and IRL. The BY 400 gave :tony: the hubris and $$$ to create the IRL. Also, allowing the Cabs into IMS removed some of the mystique of the track. 17 years later, the BY 400 doesn't have it used to have. Just my $.02....

-Kevin

Andrew Longman

08-01-11, 11:15 AM

Also, allowing the Cabs into IMS removed some of the mystique of the track. 17 years later, the BY 400 doesn't have it used to have.

In 1993 NASCAR was just starting to feel its growing momentum. There was novelty to running at IMS. So that worked.

But NASCAR today is very much feeling their over-saturation and the sameness of all their races. Their overall decline has a lot to do with the apparent coming failure of the BY400.

But the decline of the I500 also damaged all IMS properties from the IRL to the BY400. It's been 16 years since an I500 mattered. So who cares what else runs at IMS?

If the 500 was still the one race, or even one of the races, any driver would jump at the chance to run, then other races there would matter. 100 years of history only takes you so far, especially if you aren't making new history and if fewer are alive who actually experienced the old history.

The race used to be the richest and fastest, requiring the most daring, endurance and technological innovation -- and a goodly amount of luck -- to win.

No more and not in a long time.

dando

08-01-11, 11:48 AM

In 1993 NASCAR was just starting to feel its growing momentum. There was novelty to running at IMS. So that worked.

But NASCAR today is very much feeling their over-saturation and the sameness of all their races. Their overall decline has a lot to do with the apparent coming failure of the BY400.

But the decline of the I500 also damaged all IMS properties from the IRL to the BY400. It's been 16 years since an I500 mattered. So who cares what else runs at IMS?

If the 500 was still the one race, or even one of the races, any driver would jump at the chance to run, then other races there would matter. 100 years of history only takes you so far, especially if you aren't making new history and if fewer are alive who actually experienced the old history.

The race used to be the richest and fastest, requiring the most daring, endurance and technological innovation -- and a goodly amount of luck -- to win.

No more and not in a long time.

To quote BB King....the thrill is gone. :(

-Kevin

Andrew Longman

08-01-11, 12:37 PM

To quote BB King....the thrill is gone. :(

-Kevin

Also to quote BB King, "The boy is already grown. You can't raise him up again"

Not sure how that applies but I find most things BB says apply somehow. :D

I think it means we're screwed.

TKGAngel

08-01-11, 12:40 PM

Speaking of Hinton, did you read the tribute piece he wrote about his recently deceased wife?

http://espn.go.com/racing/story/_/id/6806537/snow-hinton-life-worth-loving

-Kevin

I read the Hinton piece when it was published last week. Just beautiful.

And Jeff Gluck from SBNation compiled these attendance stats from the past Brickyard races (http://www.sbnation.com/nascar/2011/7/31/2307941/2011-brickyard-400-attendance-nascar-indianapolis-motor-speedway). When you lose 49% of your attendance in five years, something is rotten in the state of Indiana.

Tifosi24

08-01-11, 08:26 PM

This thread is timely in that I was just talking with a guy at work about the amount of people dressed in aluminum at NASCAR races. He is a general fan of all sports (he worked as a sportswriter for a few years) and he was watching a little NASCAR a few weeks ago and was surprised by the open seats. I told him that I think it is a product of them overbuilding the tracks. The racing isn't what I care for, but even for the normal rube out there, the races aren't even that exciting anymore. I am really afraid if the economy goes back into recession, because I think that would seriously impact NASCAR sponsorship, which would in term destroy sponsorship in what remaining US races there is. With how expensive it is to run a NASCAR team these days, I don't see the ROI for a title sponsor.

cameraman

08-01-11, 08:50 PM

I don't see the ROI for a title sponsor.

Given where the economy is heading, that will probably be true of just about every major sports sponsorship. We have a Rio Tinto soccer stadium, an Energy Solutions basketball arena, and a Spring Mobile Ballpark. What is the calculated value of those sponsorships based on?

The same goes for other sports. RadioShack spends some significant sum of money to sponsor cycling's Team Radioshack. But you would never know that they sponsored a team by walking into a Radioshack store. In fact I've never seen any advertising by the Radioshack stores that even acknowledges the cycling team. There is a total disconnect.:confused: So just exactly what do they get for their money beyond my son wearing their logo?

http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii35/Cynops/Uphill.jpg

racer2c

08-01-11, 09:08 PM

Dumbasses....it cuz Indy is back. Duh.

Tifosi24

08-01-11, 09:37 PM

The same goes for other sports. RadioShack spends some significant sum of money to sponsor cycling's Team Radioshack. But you would never know that they sponsored a team by walking into a Radioshack store. In fact I've never seen any advertising by the Radioshack stores that even acknowledges the cycling team. There is a total disconnect.:confused: So just exactly what do they get for their money beyond my son wearing their logo?

[/IMG]

Looks like the son is training to become the next Lance. Not meaning to hijack the thread but I think Radioshack's motive was to some how ride the Lance train, except that train had passed the station an hour earlier and they are now stuck with a team full of Chris Chelios aged GC riders. The other American teams (Garmin, HTC, BMC) have acquired most of the young North American talent and, from a sponsorship standpoint, can actually provide an ROI both in Europe and North America

Indy

08-02-11, 12:22 AM

Ed_Severson

08-02-11, 08:08 AM

I've not seen it, but doesn't IMS have 500,000 seats?

No. As far as actual seats go, the number is in the 275,000 ballpark.

At the risk of using up my NASCAR-related word quota for the next decade, the place sure looked empty on TV. Brickyard weekend I generally find a good reason to get the hell out of town for a few days. This year I was at my dad's and caught bits and pieces on the tube ... looked like a really good crowd for an Indy Lights race. If the crowd trend continues, in another couple years I'll be able to stay at home instead of fleeing the hillbilly invasion.

racer2c

08-02-11, 01:54 PM

Brilliant. Very, very touching.

Agreed. I read it twice. :(

Racing Truth

08-02-11, 02:20 PM

There were actually more people there than I'd thought there would be. Still, the 138k estimate is :laugh:. Take 20-25k off that and I'll buy it.

Pure awesomeness from Ed Hinton.

http://espn.go.com/racing/nascar/cup/story/_/id/6820961/nascar-magic-indianapolis-motor-speedway-eroding-more-year

Sometimes Hinton comes out with redundant drivel, but this is good, if not unexpected. The thing you have to understand about Hinton is that he sees himself as "more IMS than IMS itself." He clearly has an extreme reverence for the Indianapolis Motor Speedway and the 500, at least how he'd like to remember them by.

He hates what he sees as being done to diminish/defile the place. It's an interesting debate really that goes back to '94. Is the BY400 good or bad for IMS? To the point, should IMS host any event other than the 500?

I confess to having flipped back-and-forth on this question. From an OW perspective th 400 came at the same of our self-destruction, also (in a tiny way) heightening this self-destruction. Truth be told, 10 yrs. ago, the 400 was arguably the bigger event... IN INDIANAPOLIS. That's laughable now, but a decade is a long time now.

OTOH, why shouldn't a facility like that host other events? Every other major US track does or tries to. After all, it's the 21st century, right? Get with modernity!

Then I see a half-empty IMS for a supposedly major event, and I think, "No, this isn't right. Not here." I know I'm going against the wind here at OC, but to me, IMS is NOT just another venue; it is special and to see "just another race" run there, before a half-full house is sad and wrong.

This race, the 400, badly needs a mercy killing.

Racing Truth

08-02-11, 03:14 PM

That statement may be a bit strong as a direct correlation to US OW's decline, but it was the tipping point that started the decline @ IMS, C^RT and IRL. The BY 400 gave :tony: the hubris and $$$ to create the IRL. Also, allowing the Cabs into IMS removed some of the mystique of the track. 17 years later, the BY 400 doesn't have it used to have. Just my $.02....

-Kevin

Yes. If not for The Split, it might have been OK. I don't think the 400 would have ever challenged the 500 for IMS supremacy, but even then, I can't be sure.

As it is, the 400 further diluted the 500 in the throes of a destructive civil war.

Further, IMS was known as The Home of the Indy 500." Now, it is diluted.

Elmo T

08-02-11, 05:18 PM

Further, IMS was known as The Home of the Indy 500." Now, it is diluted.

Doesn't "The Home of the Indy 500, et al" have the same ring to it?

Andrew Longman

08-02-11, 05:28 PM

why shouldn't a facility like that host other events? Every other major US track does or tries to. After all, it's the 21st century, right? Get with modernity!There is no problem IMO with running other events. The place that "runs the 500" can add to and exploit value from any number of events.

BUT...

Only if it is still running a 500 worthy of the name. It's history ALONE will diminish over time if they don't keep making NEW history. It had to stay the greatest and richest race in the world. They did not do that. Instead they have been acting like they are trying to squeeze every last once of value out of a diminishing "cash cow" asset. Basically, ride it into the ground for all its worth.

Sadly I doubt that was actually the conscious business strategy but they've been doing pretty much that for a long time.

Racing Truth

08-02-11, 07:24 PM

Doesn't "The Home of the Indy 500, et al" have the same ring to it?

Uh, no. IMHO.;)

Duroc

08-02-11, 07:33 PM

They're fsck'd.

Outside of openwheel vs. NASCAR it's not like MotoGP (or F1 before it) is setting sales records. They're dumping tickets through Yamaha dealerships. Yeah there's a glut of tracks looking for revenue dates in a lousy economy - but I'd say the biggest problem is management of the place is out to lunch.

Racing Truth

08-02-11, 08:07 PM

There is no problem IMO with running other events. The place that "runs the 500" can add to and exploit value from any number of events.

BUT...

Only if it is still running a 500 worthy of the name. It's history ALONE will diminish over time if they don't keep making NEW history. It had to stay the greatest and richest race in the world. They did not do that. Instead they have been acting like they are trying to squeeze every last once of value out of a diminishing "cash cow" asset. Basically, ride it into the ground for all its worth.

Sadly I doubt that was actually the conscious business strategy but they've been doing pretty much that for a long time.

Don't disagree with that at all. The 500 purse needs to be upped quite a lot. Doing so might change the dynamic a bit.

Still, keeping the 400 and adding a NNS race and Grand-Am race is a) desperate, b) a cash grab and c) damaging to the place's mystique.

Problem is that they made all the improvements to the place for Cup & F1 (some of which were needed) races, including the r/c. Of course, F1's gone and the 400's a pathetic shell. IMS never counted on that and feel they have to use the r/c, garages, etc for something since they spent $ on them.

But if the 400 doesn't begin to recover next year, I can't, in the end, see it surviving.

Racing Truth

08-02-11, 08:14 PM

In terms of the 400, though, not sure what IMS could have done better to help the event. For the most part, the racing isn't very good for stockers there (this yr. was decent though) and the '08 Goodyear disgrace permanently tarnished it Indianapolis.

Combine that with no local blackout (unlike the 500) and, perhaps a minor point, mergification, well a Cup race in the dead of Summer just doesn't hold the appeal in Indy it once did.

racer2c

08-03-11, 09:59 AM

Bummer. :yuck:

The live attendance may have been down at Indianapolis Motor Speedway for the Brickyard 400, but it was a hit on television. ESPN's live telecast earned a 4.6 household coverage rating, averaging 6,377,000 viewers, according to the Nielsen Company. The rating rose from a 4.2 for last year's event.

link (http://www.thewhig.com/ArticleDisplay.aspx?e=3241321)

Racing Truth

08-03-11, 11:32 AM

Bummer. :yuck:

link (http://www.thewhig.com/ArticleDisplay.aspx?e=3241321)

And, ultimately, that's why this travesty won't go away anytime soon.:(

racer2c

08-03-11, 12:34 PM

And, ultimately, that's why this travesty won't go away anytime soon.:(

It would be interesting to see what the local Indy ratings are.

NismoZ

08-04-11, 11:24 AM

Whoa...what was the I500 rating?

dando

08-04-11, 11:37 AM

Bummer. :yuck:

link (http://www.thewhig.com/ArticleDisplay.aspx?e=3241321)

That's because it was too damn hot in 2/3s of the country to enjoy life outside. We're headed toward 30+ 90-degree days here, which isn't too far from the all-time record of 40 days....and for my po' white ass, that's too damn hot for me (insert Al Gore's name here). :saywhat:

-Kevin

Indy

08-04-11, 06:31 PM

RT, Hinton's attitude reflects my own. I still love the place and the race, and I simply can not understand why the gomers who remained loyal during the IRL years did not instead hang the Hulman-George's from the grandstands in protest of what they did.

I personally would not have had a problem with support races at the Speedway. Stock cars should NEVER have been allowed.

NismoZ

08-07-11, 08:46 PM

Wow, again. No separate topic needed here. Pocono...worse than Indy. Aluminum-wise.:shakehead

Napoleon

09-02-11, 10:48 AM

As it is, the 400 further diluted the 500 in the throes of a destructive civil war.

IMO the 400 financed the civil war for TG. With the money from the 400 he could "safely" blow up IndyCar then outwait CART to pick up the pieces. No 400, IMO he never pulls the trigger to start the civil war.

RTKar

09-02-11, 11:09 AM

IMO the 400 financed the civil war for TG. With the money from the 400 he could "safely" blow up IndyCar then outwait CART to pick up the pieces. No 400, IMO he never pulls the trigger to start the civil war.

Agreed, I wonder too, if the Frances knew by racing at indy they would dilute the 500 and over time further enhance the position of nascar over OW. All, illustrating how myopic tg was. Had the CART owners stood firm and united, I still feel they would have prevailed.