Turkey

[cameraman]

It is absolutely pour down rain in Turkey. And Leigh Diffey will be subbing for Bob Varsha this weekend.

[opinionated ow]

It is absolutely pour down rain in Turkey. And Leigh Diffey will be subbing for Bob Varsha this weekend.

I pity you all

[cameraman]

Sebastian Vettel just thrashed his car. The right side is wrecked. Red flag to clean it up. He's fine but the car heads back to the garage on the flatbed.

It's just pouring, it was his first laps an hour into the session and he was on inters and just lost it at speed.

[Insomniac]

That was a statement. I thought someone could beat Webber's time, but no one could.

[opinionated ow]

That was a statement. I thought someone could beat Webber's time, but no one could.

despite no KERS and not having the new aerodynamic add ons, Webber is smashed by 4 tenths. Just underscores my point: Vettel is an awesome driver, Webber is an average one.

[cameraman]

despite no KERS and not having the new aerodynamic add ons, Webber is smashed by 4 tenths.

Where did you hear that Vettel had no KERS or aero bits?

[opinionated ow]

Where did you hear that Vettel had no KERS or aero bits?

Pretty sure they mentioned it on our pre-race


BBC F1 pit-lane reporter Ted Kravitz: "There still was a problem in Sebastian Vettel's garage in the hour before qualifying - they are not certain of having Kers operational. Secondly his car doesn't not have all the updates to the back of the car that Mark Webber has so that is another few tenths of a second that he is giving away to his team-mate. In other news, it will be a three-stop strategy for pretty much everyone with only those in trouble coming in four times."

[opinionated ow]

The more this goes on the less like sport it becomes. DRS, KERS, 80 pitstops in dry conditions?!? When a driver overtakes by pushing a button it stops being a sport and becomes entertainment. F1 didn't need this crap to get spectators in the past, time they got rid of it now!

[cameraman]

I have to strongly disagree. That was a fun race to watch.

What broke on di Resta's car? The team saw "something" during the pit stop and told him to stop as soon as he left the pit box.

[Insomniac]

The more this goes on the less like sport it becomes. DRS, KERS, 80 pitstops in dry conditions?!? When a driver overtakes by pushing a button it stops being a sport and becomes entertainment. F1 didn't need this crap to get spectators in the past, time they got rid of it now!

I disagree on KERS and DRS. I really didn't think DRS was going to work well and was already looking for changes to the system (use anytime within 1s) but in a move I didn't see coming, the teams made changes instead to take advantage of the system.

They are giving the drivers the tools they need to pass that they have simply lacked in the past. For whatever reason, I think the racing is better. Drivers are actually trying to pass. McLaren tells Hamilton he will get a chance before the end of the race to pass Button and he instead goes right past him a half a lap later. Alonso and Webber swapped positions on track twice. Outside of Vettel, there is actual racing going on at the front.

The tires wear so much. They seem crappy, but who knows. Would the racing be the same with Bridgestones?

[Indy]

I am against all gimmicky aids, but the DRS is particularly bad because it gives an advantage to one car and not the other. It certainly reminds me of the Handford device, which at the time was hailed as a great improvement to the racing but, in my opinion, hastened the demise of the superspeedways.

As I watched the race I noticed that I was semi-excited for more of the race, but never as excited as I was seeing Hakkinen muscle past Schumacher, for example. So in essence the gimmicks are the Prozac of motor racing -- the lows are a lot easier to work though, but forget about seeing those highs again. :shakehead

[Pilgrims Drop]

IMHO they are using the DRS all wrong. They are activating it on the most obvious places where passes occur anyways due to their nature (as going into turn 12/13 in Turkey for example). They should activate it somewhere else allowing for more genuine passing possibilities during a lap... then DRS might actually add something to the show... now it destroys more than it creates as it becomes too easy to pass.

[racer2c]

Drs also reminds me of the ol' Hanford device, Indy. The first race with it was the most astounding, amazing, spectacular spectacle I'd ever seen. About 50 laps in it was apparent it was making a mockery of a top world series.

On the other hand, if F1 engineers designed a static rear wing to allow the following car to close in, draft and sling shot around, isn't it really the same?

[Insomniac]

I am against all gimmicky aids, but the DRS is particularly bad because it gives an advantage to one car and not the other. It certainly reminds me of the Handford device, which at the time was hailed as a great improvement to the racing but, in my opinion, hastened the demise of the superspeedways.

As I watched the race I noticed that I was semi-excited for more of the race, but never as excited as I was seeing Hakkinen muscle past Schumacher, for example. So in essence the gimmicks are the Prozac of motor racing -- the lows are a lot easier to work though, but forget about seeing those highs again. :shakehead

I prefer not to have them, but you're talking about racing (Hakkinen/Shumacher) so many seasons ago. I'm comparing it to the last season. They've kind of gone down this path where these kinds of things are the best they can do.

[Indy]

...About 50 laps in it was apparent it was making a mockery of a top world series.

Well said. It should have been beneath them, as should this.


On the other hand, if F1 engineers designed a static rear wing to allow the following car to close in, draft and sling shot around, isn't it really the same?

Sort of. I would also think of it as a gimmick, but it certainly would not be as bad as this.


Doing a little more thinking about this, it occurs to me that the beginning of the end of CART was the point at which the natural evolution of the sport led it beyond the speedways, especially supersweedways, but instead of accepting that and becoming American GP they sought to preserve a status quo that technology was rendering obsolete. As they finally seemed to realize this and allow the series to follow its natural path, the primary speedway owner, Tony George, did what he had to to force open wheel back to the ovals. He could not, however, change the advance of technology, so he had to outlaw it instead. CART's response to this should have been to embrace technology, completely abandon the ovals and distance itself from the IRL, but instead their Indy-centric thinking insured that they would fail to differentiate themselves enough to survive.

And all of that of course is now history, but the interesting thing is how F1 is responding to the same sorts of forces. It seems to me that if they, like CART before them, fail to understand the essence of what makes the series worthwhile, they will trigger the decline that signals the beginning of the end.

[NismoZ]

F-1 is trying to spend LESS money. To do what you ask of it is possible but not likely. In CART/ChampCar/IndyCar it wasn't/isn't even possible. (what is the argument about using the wing adjustment any time and anywhere? Couldn't Jim Hall do that in Can Am?)

[cameraman]

You guys are giving the DRS system far more credit for the increase in passing than it deserves. The drivers and the teams are saying that the majority of the passing is due to tire strategy not flappy rear wings. Someone on new tires will pass someone on old tires with or without the DRS system. Also the DRS system is not a Hanford device like panacea were you are guaranteed to make the pass. The majority of the times it was used it did NOT result in a pass. Both Weber vs Alonso passes were tire wear induced, they would have happened without the DRS system. Each driver had a huge drop off in speed right before getting passed. That's why they could not come back on the next lap.

At the end of the day the finishing order was almost identical to the qualification order. The differences being the Mercedes had terrible tire wear on full fuel which gave Rosberg fits. That is a problem with the Mercedes design that Ross Braun needs to fix. Through all of that passing and all of those pit stops the fastest cars were still the fastest cars and the fastest drivers were still the fastest drivers. Buemi lost two places at the end of the race not because of the DRS but because he had a mechanical problem. The only reason Trulli got around Kovalainen was Heikki's car was broken and he was limping home.

In years past there was no way on earth Mark Webber would have made it from 18th to 4th place. Even though he would have been faster he would have never been able to make it to the front because the races were parades where you could not pass the car in front even if you were a couple seconds a lap faster than the car in front of you. Hell this week Kobayashi made it from last place to 10th even with all the time he lost with the flat tire from hitting Buemi on the pass. That also never would have happened prior to these rules.

A driver's performance is now dependent on how well the team manages tire wear and overall tire usage during qualifications. That is what matters, far, far more than the DRS system matters.

[Indy]

I agree with you that the tires are more important, but when I saw passes in the DRS zone it was like the car got an extra 100 horsepower instantly.

[extramundane]

I'm just proud to see that F1 gimmickry has brought Mr. Indy & Mr. Racer closer together.

Kum Ba Ya! Praise be to Bernie! ;)


/runs

[opinionated ow]

I agree with you that the tires are more important, but when I saw passes in the DRS zone it was like the car got an extra 100 horsepower instantly.

If the cars are going to be allowed kers and moving wings, let them have unlimited use of both so they can defend too

[NismoZ]

That's what Jim Hall intended! Just a short stretch then to Lexan skirts and air-sucking sno-mobile engines. I guess F-1 copied that for a short time, too? Just when is new development a gimmick and when does it become advanced technology? The way the "new" technology is presently being administered is sort of gimmicky. Have to say, however, I really enjoyed the slicing and dicing, passing and repassing and didn't let the fact that it may have been gimmick induced temper my enjoyment.

[stroker]

What's the point of KERS if the best team doesn't even need to use it to win?

What's the point of the Flap if the passed car can use it again to swap on the next lap?

What's the point of tires that fail within X laps intentionally? That's the same thing as a competition between restaurants based on their inventory control using bread that goes bad in a day instead of a competition between bakeries to see who can get their bread to last the longest...

It makes the racing exciting? Welcome to NASCRAP land. This is all contrived bull. They're three steps above the IRL and descending at this point.

[NismoZ]

At least we can eliminate a return to full aero effects. Autosport reporting today that idea for '013 will be voted down.

[Elmo T]

They're three steps above the IRL and descending at this point.

Are you sure the IRL isn't ascending? :tony:

[pchall]

Are you sure the IRL isn't ascending? :tony:

I'd need an 8 ball or two to make me think the IRL was ascending.

[stroker]

I'd need an 8 ball or two to make me think the IRL was ascending.

b-b-but Robin Miller sez they'll have two or three different engines next year! An' maybe cars that look different!

:shakehead

[indyfan31]

While Bernie keeps asking for millions more from the track owners, what's stopping him from buying one of these?
http://street.ci.lubbock.tx.us/images/streetSweeper.jpg
or for that matter one of these?
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3116/2556452433_e72e188ce4.jpg

the idea that a multi-billion dollar operation like Formula 1 doesn't clean the track before each race is moronic. there should be no such thing as a "dirty side" at the start of a race.

[Cam]

While Bernie keeps asking for millions more from the track owners, what's stopping him from buying one of these?
http://street.ci.lubbock.tx.us/images/streetSweeper.jpg
or for that matter one of these?
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3116/2556452433_e72e188ce4.jpg

the idea that a multi-billion dollar operation like Formula 1 doesn't clean the track before each race is moronic. there should be no such thing as a "dirty side" at the start of a race.

They do. But there is a "rubbered in" line on the track. Its not a matter of cleaning. The off side of the racing line of the start straight is still green. You wont get the same traction. Nothing to do with marbles. If it rains before the start the advantage is gone.

[Ziggy]

Best post I have read in a long time on this board

by Stroker

"What's the point of KERS if the best team doesn't even need to use it to win?

What's the point of the Flap if the passed car can use it again to swap on the next lap?

What's the point of tires that fail within X laps intentionally? That's the same thing as a competition between restaurants based on their inventory control using bread that goes bad in a day instead of a competition between bakeries to see who can get their bread to last the longest...

It makes the racing exciting? Welcome to NASCRAP land. This is all contrived bull. They're three steps above the IRL and descending at this point."

and to Indy

the Hanford device was an attempt to keep speeds in check, from going super sonic (on a superspeedway!) It was dangerous as hell. It was time for a new formula.

[Insomniac]

They do. But there is a "rubbered in" line on the track. Its not a matter of cleaning. The off side of the racing line of the start straight is still green. You wont get the same traction. Nothing to do with marbles. If it rains before the start the advantage is gone.

How do they decide which side P1 is on?

[Cam]

How do they decide which side P1 is on?

DUH! It's wherever the dude that paints the first pit box foremost. :p

[Insomniac]

DUH! It's wherever the dude that paints the first pit box foremost. :p

:) I tried to find a rule, but no luck. I did find the sporting and technical regulations though:

http://www.fia.com/sport/Regulations/f1regs.html

[Cam]

:) I tried to find a rule, but no luck. I did find the sporting and technical regulations though:

http://www.fia.com/sport/Regulations/f1regs.html

Yeah. I dont think there is a clear rule. I believe it is the stall with the cleanest/smoothest line into turn one. Which is usually outside.

[cameraman]

I believe it is the choice of the pole winner.

[opinionated ow]

I believe it is the choice of the pole winner.

Under the FIA sporting regulations they use a staggered grid. Subsequently there is a defined P1. There are very few places where it is not on the "clean" side of the circuit except at Malaysia where they repainted the grid boxes (moving the side of the furtherst forward box) this year because of fears about the tyre build up.

[Racing Truth]

Well said. It should have been beneath them, as should this.



Sort of. I would also think of it as a gimmick, but it certainly would not be as bad as this.


Doing a little more thinking about this, it occurs to me that the beginning of the end of CART was the point at which the natural evolution of the sport led it beyond the speedways, especially supersweedways, but instead of accepting that and becoming American GP they sought to preserve a status quo that technology was rendering obsolete. As they finally seemed to realize this and allow the series to follow its natural path, the primary speedway owner, Tony George, did what he had to to force open wheel back to the ovals. He could not, however, change the advance of technology, so he had to outlaw it instead. CART's response to this should have been to embrace technology, completely abandon the ovals and distance itself from the IRL, but instead their Indy-centric thinking insured that they would fail to differentiate themselves enough to survive.

And all of that of course is now history, but the interesting thing is how F1 is responding to the same sorts of forces. It seems to me that if they, like CART before them, fail to understand the essence of what makes the series worthwhile, they will trigger the decline that signals the beginning of the end.

Several problems here. One, raise your hand if you think an American GP Series would have worked. What's it's raison d'etre? "Hey everybody, an American version of F1, only with less talent!" Yeah, that's a permanent TINY niche, and given what you'd want it to be (uber-tech), totally unsustainable.

Two, this becomes problematic due to TOO MUCH speed. As it is, technology/speed has rendered some OW RCs (Laguna) obsolete- not enough time to draft on medium-length straights. Letting tech. "take it's course" only makes that worse.

Three, sorry, I WANT the lead US OW series to be a mix- neither NASCAR nor F1. It acts, in many ways, as a unique bridge. I like that.

[racer2c]

Several problems here. One, raise your hand if you think an American GP Series would have worked. What's it's raison d'etre? "Hey everybody, an American version of F1, only with less talent!" Yeah, that's a permanent TINY niche, and given what you'd want it to be (uber-tech), totally unsustainable.

Two, this becomes problematic due to TOO MUCH speed. As it is, technology/speed has rendered some OW RCs (Laguna) obsolete- not enough time to draft on medium-length straights. Letting tech. "take it's course" only makes that worse.

Three, sorry, I WANT the lead US OW series to be a mix- neither NASCAR nor F1. It acts, in many ways, as a unique bridge. I like that.

Actually, CART '90 thru '95 was on par with F1. An idiot named Tony George and his entitled tantrum put an end to that.
I lost the motivation about 10 years ago to rehash this all but... I like IndyCar having a unique flavor. I just want it to be less gomerific and more like cart. :)

[Indy]

Several problems here. One, raise your hand if you think an American GP Series would have worked. What's it's raison d'etre? "Hey everybody, an American version of F1, only with less talent!" Yeah, that's a permanent TINY niche, and given what you'd want it to be (uber-tech), totally unsustainable.

:raiseshand:

With CART's inertia and reputation, which at the time sometimes transcended that of F1, and without the obligation of managing speeds in such a way that drivers would be protected on ovals, it could have worked. I am not saying that tech could have been unlimited, but it could have been managed much better for a road course only series. Perhaps it even could have been done in such a way that would not have angered the manufacturers.

[Indy]

I just want it to be less gomerific and more like cart. :)

You just don't know what Indy means. :gomer:

[Racing Truth]

:raiseshand:

With CART's inertia and reputation, which at the time sometimes transcended that of F1, and without the obligation of managing speeds in such a way that drivers would be protected on ovals, it could have worked. I am not saying that tech could have been unlimited, but it could have been managed much better for a road course only series. Perhaps it even could have been done in such a way that would not have angered the manufacturers.

Really? OK, fine, now tell me (us) how- don't just wish/think it.

I'm gonna sound gomertastic, but such a series has ZERO connection (in terms of mass appeal) to the American racing tradition. No Milwaukee, Phoenix and of course, Indy. Yes, you'd have Long Beach and, perhaps, RA, but that's it.

I refuse to believe that a successful OW series needs to be all ovals or even majority ovals. But when you say that CART sometimes transcended F1, ask yourself why. Was it just the glory of the turbos and tech? Uhh, NO, and if you think so, well, that must be an awesome bong.

The beauty of 80's/early 90's CART was this: You had to run well at Long Beach, Road America and Laguna AND Milwaukee, Phoenix and IMS. That's why it rocked- it combined disciplines and, in some ways, cultures, while still having that historical tie to American OW.

A techie American GP series would be relegated to SPEED or 1-hr. highlight shows.

[Methanolandbrats]

This ******** is nothing but a hightech lucky dog/debris yellow. Only a matter of a few years until F1 is transformed from motor racing into an entertianment/overtaking/green sheetfest. :yuck:

[Indy]

I disagree, RT. I was an oval guy who found the road courses increasingly compelling. Even the IRL road courses draw much higher ratings than the ovals. I would argue the opposite of what you are stating -- I believe that the IRL was nothing if not a desperation move to keep Indy relevant when it became obvious the ovals were beginning to fade.

The oval fans are dead or dying, and the current product is so dumbed down for them that the series overall is rendered completely worthless. It could be compelling again if they designed a car for the roads and gave up the ovals, but obviously that is not going to happen now that IMS owns everything.

[opinionated ow]

Really? OK, fine, now tell me (us) how- don't just wish/think it.

I'm gonna sound gomertastic, but such a series has ZERO connection (in terms of mass appeal) to the American racing tradition. No Milwaukee, Phoenix and of course, Indy. Yes, you'd have Long Beach and, perhaps, RA, but that's it.

I refuse to believe that a successful OW series needs to be all ovals or even majority ovals. But when you say that CART sometimes transcended F1, ask yourself why. Was it just the glory of the turbos and tech? Uhh, NO, and if you think so, well, that must be an awesome bong.

The beauty of 80's/early 90's CART was this: You had to run well at Long Beach, Road America and Laguna AND Milwaukee, Phoenix and IMS. That's why it rocked- it combined disciplines and, in some ways, cultures, while still having that historical tie to American OW.

A techie American GP series would be relegated to SPEED or 1-hr. highlight shows.
I agree. An American GP series would be boring and irrelevant and neglects the history of American open wheel racing. There were two reasons I gave up on Champ Car...spec car and no ovals.