View Full Version : Revolt like an Egyptian
http://img577.imageshack.us/img577/9950/demonstratorsclashwith0.jpg
President Hosni Mubarak has put the Army in the streets and will address the nation tonight. Big moment.
BBC article Why Egypt Matters:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-12311889
Local coverage:
http://english.aljazeera.net/
http://www.almasryalyoum.com/en
Long essay about the recent unrest in other countries:
http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=22963
*posted for the facts, the anti-imperialist slant is just a bonus :gomer:
CNN updates by the minute:
http://news.blogs.cnn.com/2011/01/28/clashes-erupt-in-cairo-elbaradei-told-to-stay-put-cnn-camera-confiscated/?hpt=T1&iref=BN1
[Updated 5:31 p.m. (0031 in Egypt)] Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak says he has asked the government to resign, and that he will appoint a new government Saturday. He gave no indication that he would step down or leave the country.
swing and a miss.
This not going to end well, and the unrest in spreading (Tunisia, Egypt, Algeria, Yemen...). I also read an article earlier mentioning the $2B in aid we give them annually. :saywhat: Where is Anwar Sadat when you need him? :(
Watching Richard Engel file his report on NBC amidst tear gas is just freakish. :eek:
EDIT2: one wonders how much the aid greased the rails for the Mideast Peace Agreements. :shakehead
-Kevin
SurfaceUnits
01-28-11, 07:45 PM
"Right on brothers.The Man can't keep you down forever." Nat X
Engel showing tear gas canisters 'Made in the USA'. :saywhat:
-Kevin
EDIT2: one wonders how much the aid greased the rails for the Mideast Peace Agreements. :shakehead
Of course that is precisely what is going on. Mubarak is a thug, but he is our thug. We think of the middle east as being in constant war, but since Carter brokered the peace deal Israel has enjoyed relative peace. Just imagine what happens if Egypt falls to the Muslim Brotherhood. Peace no more.
racer2c
01-28-11, 10:43 PM
Of course that is precisely what is going on. Mubarak is a thug, but he is our thug. We think of the middle east as being in constant war, but since Carter brokered the peace deal Israel has enjoyed relative peace. Just imagine what happens if Egypt falls to the Muslim Brotherhood. Peace no more.
Who is "we"? The ignorant masses I presume? The reason there isn't more outright war is because of the military might of Israel. It's amazing how laser guided missiles and nuclear tipped tactical weapons will get your enemy's attention.
The difference now, if the US allowed, instead of a 6 day war it would be a 6 minute war.
Of course that is precisely what is going on. Mubarak is a thug, but he is our thug. We think of the middle east as being in constant war, but since Carter brokered the peace deal Israel has enjoyed relative peace. Just imagine what happens if Egypt falls to the Muslim Brotherhood. Peace no more.
The Shah of Iran was our thug also.
This could end up very bad. For just about everyone.
cameraman
01-29-11, 12:13 AM
Tunisians are not militant in their religious views and as a result Tunisia is probably the easiest and safest country for westerners to visit in all of northern Africa. It was a repressive government but one that managed to make the trains run on time, so to speak. The folks in Tunis like their iPods although they may have some prayers mixed in with the arabic techno pop.
Not so much for Egypt, there is a very large percentage of the population that is dirt poor, highly militant and pissed off. Sure you can visit the major sites with no problem but you wouldn't want to randomly wander around Cairo. This could go very badly.
Who is "we"? The ignorant masses I presume? The reason there isn't more outright war is because of the military might of Israel. It's amazing how laser guided missiles and nuclear tipped tactical weapons will get your enemy's attention.
The difference now, if the US allowed, instead of a 6 day war it would be a 6 minute war.
the reason there isn't more outright war is because egypt is our puppet, israel's might can't put down hezbollah offenses in southern lebanon in what became all out battle and you think that supposed mythical might is what keeps egypt in check?
seriously?
and for that record, that there isn't more outright war is because we keep israel in check like our little bitches too. and jordan, and go on down the list.
stroker
01-29-11, 10:33 AM
there isn't more outright war is because we keep israel in check like our little bitches too. and jordan, and go on down the list.
Yep. Uncle Sam would prefer to spend our dollars to keep the peace rather than end up with a big-ass pile 'o bodies, as compared to the Russians.
You'd think the Palestinians would have noticed that. Unfortunately they seem to be slow learners.
racer2c
01-29-11, 11:08 AM
the reason there isn't more outright war is because egypt is our puppet, israel's might can't put down hezbollah offenses in southern lebanon in what became all out battle and you think that supposed mythical might is what keeps egypt in check?
seriously?
and for that record, that there isn't more outright war is because we keep israel in check like our little bitches too. and jordan, and go on down the list.
I said that we keep Israel on leash. "mythical"? Funny how " mythical" nuclear bombs scare the he'll out of your neighbors. Allow me to change my original post...it would be more like a 6 second war. Israel is only going to take so much of this before they simply crack. That's the part that scares the he'll out of me.
Jimmy Carter? :rofl::rofl::rofl:
TravelGal
01-29-11, 12:57 PM
The Shah of Iran was our thug also.
This could end up very bad. For just about everyone.
I think this is the point. When we back someone who acts completely contrary to our supposed ideals (freedom, democracy, etc.), it always ends badly eventually.
Today's updates:
[Update 7:05 p.m. Cairo, 12:05 p.m. ET] CNN's Ben Wedeman (#bencnn) sent this series of tweets within the past 20 minutes:
•Came to office by Cairo metro today. People talking about Mubarak as president IN THE PAST TENSE. For most I spoke, Mubarak is gone.
•Almost all police stations ransacked, arsenals looted. Suddenly weapons in the streets wielded by thugs. Where is the army?
•Saw a truckload of riot police leaving Cairo this morning. they looked defeated and scared. people say "they should be"
•Widely believed hated #Egypt police force playing part in the chaos and looting. they've abandoned their posts, in civilian clothes
•In residential areas of Cairo people setting up barricades to protect their streets. Wielding clubs, knives fearing looters.
•Man in Tahrir Square told me "We have fired Mubarak." It's clear from the streets that he's no longer wanted.
http://news.blogs.cnn.com/category/world/egypt-world-latest-news/
I hope that once the people win their freedom, they will choose to live in peace and resolve their problems with politics instead of violence. But the recent history of the Middle East makes that seem unlikely.
Insomniac
01-29-11, 01:56 PM
I don't think everyone is worried about it spreading:
Saudi Arabia's Prince Turki al-Faisa, who served as an ambassador to the U.S. and is an ex-intelligence service director, responded to a question about whether a push for democracy across the Middle East might be more worrisome than a nuclear-armed Iran.
"I don't know - in Saudi Arabia we have neither nuclear weapons nor democracy," he said.
I think this is the point. When we back someone who acts completely contrary to our supposed ideals (freedom, democracy, etc.), it always ends badly eventually.
Bravo!
Alright. Getting a bit too personal here. It's silly to draw political lines on a situation that has been the same for decades.
SurfaceUnits
01-30-11, 03:54 PM
The Iranian uprising didn't start out as an Islamic Revolution. It began as a popular uprising like we are seeing in Egypt, but it was cluster****ed by the US administration and the rest is what you've got now
That's the problem with hanging on too long. When there is a power vacuum the most organized have the advantage in moving in to fill it.
I'm not sure how Mubarak thinks that he can put this genie back in the bottle. He has limited options now. If he cares about his country he needs to look for ways to create a peaceful transition to a democratic system. There's a limited opportunity to do that before he'll have to focus on just avoiding getting strung up in the streets.
Insomniac
01-30-11, 06:39 PM
More protests planned throughout the region:
http://voices.washingtonpost.com/blog-post/2011/01/egypt_news_al_jazeera_cairo_bu.html#arab-protests-planned
The Iranian uprising didn't start out as an Islamic Revolution. It began as a popular uprising like we are seeing in Egypt, but it was cluster****ed by the US administration and the rest is what you've got now
More like cluster****ed by long standing US policy.
racer2c
01-30-11, 07:02 PM
Woman #1 sets the stage for Woman #2:
“All the people hate him.* He’s supporting Israel!* Israel is our enemy. We don’t like him…Israel and America supported him.* We hate them all!”
Woman #1 then explains that they will accomplish the removal of Mubarak by “revolution.”
Then the guy that follows them takes it up a notch by explaining that when the people in Egypt are finally free they will be able to “destroy Israel.”
http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/world/2011/01/30/robertson.alexandria.demo.cnn?iref=allsearch
SurfaceUnits
01-30-11, 07:28 PM
More like cluster****ed by long standing US policy.
no, the specific situation was cluster****ed by the US administration
nissan gtp
01-30-11, 08:22 PM
congrats for a brilliant post title :thumbup:
Latest from Mubarak:
[Update 4:25 a.m. Cairo, 9:25 p.m. ET] Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak urged leaders of his new government Sunday to engage in dialogue with all political parties to help achieve "a democratic civil society," state-run Nile TV reported. He also called on them to restore people's faith in the Egyptian economy and to control unemployment.
It's NOT the economy, stupid. :shakehead
It's like a messed up version of Rock-Paper-Scissors wrapped up in a Mexican standoff:
* Army can crush the protesters
* Protesters can unseat Mubarak
* Mubarak pays the Army
WickerBill
01-31-11, 07:15 AM
I'd pay $4/gal for synthetic gas (http://www.offcamber.net/forums/showthread.php?t=17045) if it meant the US could free, or mostly free, itself from the whims of the Middle East.
Mubarak could still crush this revolt, Saddam/Tiananmen Square style, and then the party would really begin :shakehead
cameraman
01-31-11, 10:33 AM
16% of our petroleum imports come from the middle east.
(Saudia Arabia, Iraq & Kuwait)
The biggest source is the Kanukistanis.
Egyptian Army says no violence will be used against protesters.
http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/africa/01/31/egypt.protests/index.html?hpt=T1
Hopefully, that rules out a Tiananmen Square repeat. :thumbup:
The biggest source is the Kanukistanis.
And you can't trust those bastards.
Methanolandbrats
01-31-11, 06:43 PM
And you can't trust those bastards.
"We" should kick their asses and take the oil. The French part of the country would just roll over and the rest would be easy. :D
devilmaster
01-31-11, 08:50 PM
Let me just say for myself, mappy, anait and the others....
http://serve.mysmiley.net/animated/anim_35.gif (http://www.mysmiley.net)
chop456
02-01-11, 03:09 AM
"We" should kick their asses and take the oil. The French part of the country would just roll over and the rest would be easy. :D
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_VizIrBQwA8w/TCtb-k-gQxI/AAAAAAAAJno/g4NvAkN7BTc/s640/slant+drilling.JPG
datachicane
02-01-11, 04:18 PM
The Shah of Iran was our thug also.
This could end up very bad. For just about everyone.
As were Noriega and Saddam, although we're not supposed to remember them, nor are we supposed to remember Ronald Reagan calling the mujahideen in Afghanistan and the likes of Gulbuddin Hekmatyar 'freedom fighers'.
It's a long list, unfortunately. Pinochet, Marcos, Duvalier, a pattern we seem doomed to continue :(
cameraman
02-01-11, 04:54 PM
The enemy of my enemy is my friend. It has always been the case and always will be the case.
racer2c
02-01-11, 04:57 PM
The enemy of my enemy is my friend. It has always been the case and always will be the case.
Yes. Unfortunately.
As were Noriega and Saddam, although we're not supposed to remember them, nor are we supposed to remember Ronald Reagan calling the mujahideen in Afghanistan and the likes of Gulbuddin Hekmatyar 'freedom fighers'.
It's a long list, unfortunately. Pinochet, Marcos, Duvalier, a pattern we seem doomed to continue :(
You forgot Castro. :saywhat:
-Kevin
datachicane
02-01-11, 05:12 PM
The enemy of my enemy is my friend. It has always been the case and always will be the case.
Yep, but we've had more than a few come back and bite us back, hard. We certainly have a habit of making our own beds.
It's enough to make one consider the possibility that as a culture we may be incapable of learning. Hey, I wonder if Paris Hilton is wearing underwear today? :saywhat:
racer2c
02-01-11, 05:27 PM
Yep, but we've had more than a few come back and bite us back, hard. We certainly have a habit of making our own beds.
It's enough to make one consider the possibility that as a culture we may be incapable of learning. Hey, I wonder if Paris Hilton is wearing underwear today? :saywhat:
A quick Google shows that she is definitely not. I'm of the opinion that 'we' simply are not 'taught' to 'learn', whatever that means (and no it's not a demeaning comment slanted at our public school system, but rather based on an observation of me understanding if not sympathetic toward the elitist point of view).
datachicane
02-01-11, 06:05 PM
I'm of the opinion that 'we' simply are not 'taught' to 'learn', whatever that means (and no it's not a demeaning comment slanted at our public school system, but rather based on an observation of me understanding if not sympathetic toward the elitist point of view).
That, and the fact that there is a large and successful industry dedicated solely to influencing our beliefs on behalf of its clients, an industry which sees factual information only as an obstacle to be overcome when it contradicts the needs of those clients. I love my country, I'm proud of my country. I want it to be the best nation it can be. I don't want it to repeat a pattern of mistakes that gets its soldiers, who are my friends and neighbors, killed.
In the current vernacular, that makes me an America-hater who doesn't support our troops.
Go figure.
Mubarak says he won't run for re-election in September. :thumbup:
[Update 11:05 p.m. Cairo, 4:05 p.m. ET] Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak said on state television Tuesday night that he will not seek another term in the next elections, which currently are scheduled for September.
http://news.blogs.cnn.com/category/world/egypt-world-latest-news/
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/02/world/middleeast/02transition.html?_r=1&hp
A transfer of power in Egypt in a constitutional way would be the best outcome. If the military can maintain order for 6 months, it would prevent the wack-a-doos from seizing power in a vacuum.
Mubarak just like the Shah still doesn't get it.
Methanolandbrats
02-01-11, 07:37 PM
Already a model for a dictator gone bad. Carpet bomb country, invade, knock down a few statues, shoot his family, hang his friends and finally hang him.
Historically when things go this far "I'll give up power in six months" hasn't been sufficient to quell the masses.
SurfaceUnits
02-01-11, 08:14 PM
the problems is, politicians always wait until they can declare something is a crisis before they do anything.
racer2c
02-01-11, 09:58 PM
Just saw a clip of protestors in Cairo waving red flags with hammer and sickle emblems. Weird.
WickerBill
02-01-11, 10:58 PM
Muslim Brotherhood is saying "prepare for war with Israel."
They're gonna have a lot of US weaponry at their disposal.
racer2c
02-01-11, 11:04 PM
Muslim Brotherhood is saying "prepare for war with Israel."
They're gonna have a lot of US weaponry at their disposal.
This has the potential of the beginning of something very bad.
The path for the Muslim Brotherhood to attain power isn't clear. It doesn't appear that they have the popular support to win an election. To take power they'll have to militarize and I don't think the U.S. friendly Egyptian military is going to allow that.
That, and the fact that there is a large and successful industry dedicated solely to influencing our beliefs on behalf of its clients, an industry which sees factual information only as an obstacle to be overcome when it contradicts the needs of those clients. I love my country, I'm proud of my country. I want it to be the best nation it can be. I don't want it to repeat a pattern of mistakes that gets its soldiers, who are my friends and neighbors, killed.
In the current vernacular, that makes me an America-hater who doesn't support our troops.
:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:
WickerBill
02-02-11, 08:25 AM
The path for the Muslim Brotherhood to attain power isn't clear. It doesn't appear that they have the popular support to win an election. To take power they'll have to militarize and I don't think the U.S. friendly Egyptian military is going to allow that.
From what I understand, they don't have a clear majority, but they have a larger piece of the pie (all estimated, of course) than any of the other potential groups that would put forth a candidate government. ElBaradei is most definitely a stop-gap that everyone agrees on for now, but everyone also agrees is too weak to lead a representative government.
I think the U.S. should send Sarah Pallin over there.
:tony::gomer::tony::gomer:
racer2c
02-02-11, 12:31 PM
Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu firmly ordered his government not to comment on events in Egypt, but the headlines in the Sunday morning papers got the main point across well enough: "A 30-Year Step Backward,"...
Eli Shaked, a former Israeli ambassador to Egypt, writes in the daily Yedioth Ahronoth. "The only people in Egypt who are committed to peace are the people in Mubarak's inner circle."
Link (http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,2045166,00.html)
Israel grows more nervous by the minute...:(
Many Western media outlets are doing their best to portray this as a the feel good story of the decade....fingers crossed they're right.
Sounds like Mubarak's thugs are full of peace. :laugh:
stroker
02-02-11, 03:08 PM
I don't think the protesters want anything specific, other than something other than Mubarek. Otherwise you'd be seeing signs for "Democracy" or "Islamic Rule" or something. Can't say I blame them, but if you ask a generic question, don't be surprised when the specific answer isn't what you were expecting...
r2c's quote, fixxered:
Eli Shaked, a former Israeli ambassador to Egypt, writes in the daily Yedioth Ahronoth. "The only people in Egypt who are committed to our thug government are the people in Mubarak's thug government."
Looks like the debate has begun:
[Update 8:01 p.m. Cairo, 1:01 p.m. ET]
More than 400 people have been wounded in clashes between pro- and anti-government demonstrators in Cairo, Egyptian Health Minister Ahmed Sameh Fareed told state television Wednesday. Most injuries were head wounds from thrown rocks, he said.
http://news.blogs.cnn.com/category/world/egypt-world-latest-news/
[Updated 1731 GMT (0131 HKT)]
Police were nowhere to be seen.
Army tanks surrounded the square, but the military proved unable or unwilling to separate the two sides. The hatches on their tanks and armored personnel carriers remained closed.
And the frenzy intensified. People tore paving stones out of the streets with crowbars and their bare hands, filling bags with rocks to use as an arsenal in the street battle. Some ripped street signs out of the ground, using the metal as makeshift shields.
http://edition.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/meast/02/02/egypt.protests.scene/index.html
Napoleon
02-02-11, 04:00 PM
Muslim Brotherhood is saying "prepare for war with Israel."
They're gonna have a lot of US weaponry at their disposal.
???
Really, they affirmed that they would abide by all of Egypt's treaties, one of which is the peace treaty with Israel.
Economic instability too...
Egypt's banks are closed due to fears of foreign investors and locals withdrawing their money. Five of them have been down graded by Moody's. They are supposed to reopen on Sunday along with the stock exchange.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/02/02/egypt-cbank-idINLDE7111OD20110202
http://www.advisorone.com/article/moody-s-downgrades-5-egyptian-banks-uae-regulations-bank-fees
racer2c
02-02-11, 05:25 PM
r2c's quote, fixxered:
The whole damn middle east is filled with 'thugs'. That's why this is so concerning.
racer2c
02-02-11, 06:19 PM
r2c's quote, fixxered:
Out of curiosity, what do you have against Israel? This isn't the first demeaning post you've aimed their way.
I am not sure what I wrote that was demeaning, but I have nothing in particular against Israel, except that their handling of the Palestinians has been almost as brutal as the way most Arabs are treated by their own governments. You could make the argument that in tough neighborhoods one does what one must, but it is still sickeningly inhumane.
It seems to me that there is plenty of blame to go around in the middle east, and we do the whole region no favors by choosing the winners and selling military technology to most sides.
SurfaceUnits
02-02-11, 10:45 PM
A Brief Message from Hosni Mubarak
Monday, January 31, 2011, 2:09:01 PM | Mahmoud Al-Qudsi
You can say what you want about our friends in Nigeria, but the one thing you can’t call them is slow. It’s scarcely been a few days since fellow netizens in Egypt have been clamoring for the ouster of their president/dictator/king-of-the-world Hosni Mubarak, but we’re glad to be able to reassure you all that we have it on the up-and-up that he’s already planning his exit, and is only looking for someone to help him sneak out billions of dollars in money stolen from his people before he can announce his resign. Hooray for Democracy!
Follows is a top-secret and highly-confidential message from government insider Mohammad Hammad, explaining the details of the situation and seeking out a business partner to help out a tyrant in need. Hat-tip to Muayyad for forwarding me this valuable document!
Asallam Aliekum,
I am a consultant to the Egyptian President. I am contacting you for a possible business deal based on the present political crisis in Egypt. The conglomerate of Mohamed Hosni Mubarak is ready to partner with you to help secure the resources of the president since the office of the presidency has been dissolved.
You can read more about it on this website:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/9380441.stm
http://presstv.com/detail/162539.html
As soon as we receive your positive response we will proceed with the arrangement and provide you our terms and conditions. The deal involves huge cash movement and liquidation of foreign and local investment.
Your immediate response will be appreciated.
Mr. Mohammed Hammad
WickerBill
02-03-11, 10:43 AM
???
Really, they affirmed that they would abide by all of Egypt's treaties, one of which is the peace treaty with Israel.
Really.
Muslim Brotherhood Wants End to Egypt-Israel Peace Deal (http://en.rian.ru/world/20110203/162433368.html)
racer2c
02-03-11, 10:44 AM
I am not sure what I wrote that was demeaning, but I have nothing in particular against Israel, except that their handling of the Palestinians has been almost as brutal as the way most Arabs are treated by their own governments. You could make the argument that in tough neighborhoods one does what one must, but it is still sickeningly inhumane.
It seems to me that there is plenty of blame to go around in the middle east, and we do the whole region no favors by choosing the winners and selling military technology to most sides.
Thanks. Like I said, I was simply curious. I have a different opinion of the matter but we don't need to go there. It is a fascinating situation we are watching.
Just for general information RIA Novosti is a Russian state-owned news agency.
Napoleon
02-03-11, 02:20 PM
Really.
Muslim Brotherhood Wants End to Egypt-Israel Peace Deal (http://en.rian.ru/world/20110203/162433368.html)
I will take a day or so to address this but as of right now the only place this story currently seems to be after reviewing 10 pages of Google search results is on web sites that are in one of the following categories: 1) well known hard right that are famous for their disregard for the truth, 2) Christianist, or 3) unknown to me (which is where I would slot the web site you linked to in).
No well know reputable foreign policy site that specializes in the Middle East that I know of has anything about it and as of this writing the New York Times (New York being the world's largest Jewish city making the NYT the newspaper with the largest Jewish circulation) has a story that was posted or updated 53 minutes ago directly on the intentions of the Muslim Brotherhood that fails to mention anything in the story you link too (nor does the streaming online NYT Lede or the BBC website). So it will be interesting to see what shows up in the next day or so on this subject.
That aside regardless of the truth of it (and for now I will assume it is true), certainly the MB is deeply antagonistic to Israel, but I think it is highly unlikely anything comes of that because they are far from a majority of the population and it would be an insane decision on the part of Egypt, for multiple reasons. Most people are keenly aware of their own self interest. I will post more in the future but am pressed for time at work.
In the mean time this is an interesting take on how Egypt 2011 is not Iran 1971:
http://www.juancole.com/2011/02/why-egypt-2011-is-not-iran-1979.html
Napoleon
02-03-11, 02:22 PM
Just for general information RIA Novosti is a Russian state-owned news agency.
Thanks, I could not for the life of me figure out where they came from. That story appears to be the genesis for all other stories I found in my search.
TrueBrit
02-03-11, 02:40 PM
I think the U.S. should send Sarah Pallin over there.
:tony::gomer::tony::gomer:
*wink* you betcha, also
racer2c
02-03-11, 03:20 PM
I will take a day or so to address this but as of right now the only place this story currently seems to be after reviewing 10 pages of Google search results is on web sites that are in one of the following categories: 1) well known hard right that are famous for their disregard for the truth, 2) Christianist, or 3) unknown to me (which is where I would slot the web site you
In the mean time this is an interesting take on how Egypt 2011 is not Iran 1971:
http://www.juancole.com/2011/02/why-egypt-2011-is-not-iran-1979.html
who needs those lying right wing media sites, go right to the source...as linked on page 1 of this thread. Is CNN reputable enough for ya? By the way, the hard core left wing media outlets who are famous for their disregard of the truth are too busy posting conspiracy theory articles on why birds are falling out of the sky. :rofl:
http://www.offcamber.net/forums/showpost.php?p=287707&postcount=22
I'm looking forward to Mubarak stepping down so we can see the masses light their candles, hold hands and sing koombyya. Democracy now!
*wink* you betcha, also
:laugh:
Egyptian blogger Sandmonkey's last post before being arrested:
http://pajamasmedia.com/michaeltotten/2011/02/03/sandmonkeys-last-post/
* I don't know if this is legit, how many Egyptians use 'dude', but if it is it sounds like both sides are way past talk at this point.
Napoleon
02-03-11, 04:21 PM
who needs those lying right wing media sites, go right to the source...as linked on page 1 of this thread.
??
I am sorry, but I see no link there to a story that the Muslim Brotherhood has, or some high ranking member of the MB who could be fairly said to represent the official views of the MB even though he did not say he was speaking for the MB, like, say, Rashad al-Bayoumi whom is quoted in the story WB links to, has taken the position that the Israeli – Egyptian peace treaty should be abrogated, or something similar to that.
Even if I go to the main CNN site I cannot find such a story. Accepting the quotes that are in the block quote of your prior post as true doesn’t change that. Of course you are going to find people in a country of 80,000,000 that has fought 2 wars with Israel that feel that way (I have heard as bad in my life time from Americans and I have yet to see American bombers unleashed against Israel). But that is not what WB raised, and as I said in my post “certainly the MB is deeply antagonistic to Israel”, so that is not at issue. Some average Hussian in the street about something does not mean the government of the country he happens to be from is going to make this or that change in policy.
Here is the NY Times story from earlier this afternoon on the MB:
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/04/world/middleeast/04brotherhood.html?hp=&pagewanted=print
racer2c
02-03-11, 04:35 PM
??
I am sorry, but I see no link there to a story that the Muslim Brotherhood has, or some high ranking member of the MB who could be fairly said to represent the official views of the MB even though he did not say he was speaking for the MB, like, say, Rashad al-Bayoumi whom is quoted in the story WB links to, has taken the position that the Israeli – Egyptian peace treaty should be abrogated, or something similar to that.
Even if I go to the main CNN site I cannot find such a story. Accepting the quotes that are in the block quote of your prior post as true doesn’t change that. Of course you are going to find people in a country of 80,000,000 that has fought 2 wars with Israel that feel that way (I have heard as bad in my life time from Americans and I have yet to see American bombers unleashed against Israel). But that is not what WB raised, and as I said in my post “certainly the MB is deeply antagonistic to Israel”, so that is not at issue. Some average Hussian in the street about something does not mean the government of the country he happens to be from is going to make this or that change in policy.
Here is the NY Times story from earlier this afternoon on the MB:
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/04/world/middleeast/04brotherhood.html?hp=&pagewanted=print
r2c, is the Arab/Israeli peace accord a good thing that we should value and protect?
racer2c
02-03-11, 04:52 PM
r2c, is the Arab/Israeli peace accord a good thing that we should value and protect?
Kum bay ya, my Lord, kum bay ya;
Kum bay ya, the Lord, kum bay ya;
Kum bay ya, my Lord, kum bay ya,
O Lord, kum bay ya.
datachicane
02-03-11, 04:56 PM
Ostrich
Who needs an actual, verifiable statement when you've got an opinion, huh?
Just because they're thugs doesn't mean they're stupid. If you were right about the MB and the popularity of your interpretation in Egypt, don't you think the MB would speak right up and solidify opinion behind them?
"Who are you gonna believe, me or your lyin' eyes?"
An article on the economic impact of the demonstrations:
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Cashstarved-Egyptians-turn-on-apf-2519491199.html?x=0&sec=topStories&pos=4&asset=&ccode=
Reminds me of that saying that every civilization is just three meals away from unraveling.
racer2c
02-03-11, 05:10 PM
Who needs an actual, verifiable statement when you've got an opinion, huh?
Just because they're thugs doesn't mean they're stupid. If you were right about the MB and the popularity of your interpretation in Egypt, don't you think the MB would speak right up and solidify opinion behind them?
"Who are you gonna believe, me or your lyin' eyes?"
Oh, I forgot your opinion is the only one that counts. Of course!! Lol.
I'm on pins and needles to see what rises from the ashes...bets on a republic, parliamentary system, Democracy....if only I were a betting man.
datachicane
02-03-11, 05:22 PM
Oh, I forgot your opinion is the only one that counts. Of course!! Lol.
You're the one making a predictive assertion, not me. Nappy and I are just pointing out that your assertion is not well-supported by actual public statements.
Conjecture all you want- I'll wait for real events to unfold.
TKGAngel
02-03-11, 05:34 PM
From the "Too Soon" files, Kenneth Cole tries to use Egypt situation to move product. (http://techcrunch.com/2011/02/03/kenneth-cold/) :shakehead: :confused: :thumdown:
Egyptian blogger Sandmonkey's last post before being arrested:
http://pajamasmedia.com/michaeltotten/2011/02/03/sandmonkeys-last-post/
* I don't know if this is legit, how many Egyptians use 'dude', but if it is it sounds like both sides are way past talk at this point.
Interesting read. From that point of view it doesn't exactly sound like the rebirth of a caliphate and boogeymen.
cameraman
02-03-11, 06:15 PM
ibtl :shakehead
I don't want to hear any more left or right unless you're talking about which hand... well, just let's not hear any more of that.
I also don't want to see any more "you" or "people like you" or "wrong minded idiots who follow media outlets that I don't" or "poopy pants."
I'm serious. Cut it out.
racer2c
02-03-11, 09:31 PM
My apologies to all for being so antagonistic.
datachicane
02-03-11, 09:43 PM
Don't sweat it. Better to be passionate about important stuff than Britney's underwear. :thumbup:
I keep it simple, I just blame white people :D
Napoleon
02-04-11, 07:34 AM
Really.
Muslim Brotherhood Wants End to Egypt-Israel Peace Deal (http://en.rian.ru/world/20110203/162433368.html)
At least one full news cycle has passed with no one else reporting that story (including the Jerusalem Post and Harretz from Israel which after my original post it occurred to me to search) and considering the source in my eyes it is not credible.
Notwithstanding that the MB last night did manage to back away from saying they would honor the treaty.
http://www.jpost.com/MiddleEast/Article.aspx?id=206725
racer2c
02-04-11, 12:28 PM
At least one full news cycle has passed with no one else reporting that story (including the Jerusalem Post and Harretz from Israel which after my original post it occurred to me to search) and considering the source in my eyes it is not credible.
Notwithstanding that the MB last night did manage to back away from saying they would honor the treaty.
http://www.jpost.com/MiddleEast/Article.aspx?id=206725
A political leader of Egypt’s Muslim Brotherhood Thursday called on any government that replaces Hosni Mubarak’s regime to withdraw from the 32-year-old peace treaty with Israel.
“After President Mubarak steps down and a provisional government is formed, there is a need to dissolve the peace treaty with Israel,” Rashad al-Bayoumi, a deputy leader of the outlawed movement, said on Japan’s NHTV.
Washington Times (http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2011/feb/3/muslim-brotherhood-seeks-end-to-israel-treaty/)
Napoleon
02-04-11, 01:55 PM
Interesting tidbits about some of the protesters.
“I still have my hands” (http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/04/opinion/04kristof.html?pagewanted=print)
R2C,
Neat trick, you link to a propaganda outlet which is the vanity project of a cult leader, then not even to its “news” pages but to their hardcore neocon man about town (there is a reason he got his start at the wacko NY Sun) who recirculates the exact same quote from the exact same alleged interview that WB linked to a story in Pravda's successor claiming to have occurred, that no one even bothers to provide a date for when it occurred or when it ran and that from an internet search appears only to exist on other propaganda outlets sites and pages. You would think, you know, a transcript or video would exist of it.
Meanwhile nothing but crickets at the two leading English language Israeli news organizations websites on the story and the NY Times, a paper in a city that has 2 million Jewish people. Something isn't it?
I don't find the sources of that story credible.
Interesting tidbits about some of the protesters.
“I still have my hands” (http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/04/opinion/04kristof.html?pagewanted=print)
"The lion-hearted Egyptians" of Tahrir Square. :thumbup:
cameraman
02-04-11, 02:19 PM
If you want to learn about the Muslim Brotherhood instead if demonizing them, read this:
As Islamist Group Rises, Its Intentions Are Unclear (http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/04/world/middleeast/04brotherhood.html?ref=world)
from the NY Times article:
“The Brotherhood hates Al Qaeda, and Al Qaeda hates the Brotherhood,” said Shadi Hamid, director of research at the Brookings Doha Center in Qatar. “So if we’re talking about counterterrorism, engaging with the Brotherhood will advance our interests in the region.”
There is a Bedouin saying, "Me against my brother, My brother and me against my cousin, my cousins and me against the world."
Just because the MB hates Al Qaeda, doesn't mean they'll help us.
Napoleon
02-04-11, 02:50 PM
Just because the MB hates Al Qaeda, doesn't mean they'll help us.
They don’t necessarily need to. If they are going to refuse to assist them and their presence on the Egyptian political scene give a non-violent outlet to people who may otherwise be drawn to them, they would deny them the oxygen in Egypt to ever gain a foothold in the first case. For counter-terrorism purposes I would think that is a win by taking one of the biggest chips off the table.
racer2c
02-04-11, 03:25 PM
Interesting tidbits about some of the protesters.
“I still have my hands” (http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/04/opinion/04kristof.html?pagewanted=print)
R2C,
Neat trick, you link to a propaganda outlet which is the vanity project of a cult leader, then not even to its “news” pages but to their hardcore neocon man about town (there is a reason he got his start at the wacko NY Sun) who recirculates the exact same quote from the exact same alleged interview that WB linked to a story in Pravda's successor claiming to have occurred, that no one even bothers to provide a date for when it occurred or when it ran and that from an internet search appears only to exist on other propaganda outlets sites and pages. You would think, you know, a transcript or video would exist of it.
Meanwhile nothing but crickets at the two leading English language Israeli news organizations websites on the story and the NY Times, a paper in a city that has 2 million Jewish people. Something isn't it?
I don't find the sources of that story credible.
Please submit a complete list of "Napoleon Accepted Media" so the rest of us can reduce the amount of sources we parse. Thanks. :)
If the bloggers can be believed, each day that passes the MB are being marginalized and the majority of the Egyptian population truly are in search of freedom and democracy. I honestly hope this is true and that they succeed.
Neat trick, you link to...
hardcore neocon man about town
My earlier admonition was precisely because comments like these tend to personalize and politicize the discussion. You need to listen to what I'm saying.
Aside from that I really don't understand the argument here. Are you arguing that this comment is entirely fictionalized by the Russian source? Are you arguing that there isn't anyone in the Muslim Brotherhood who would like to dissolve the treaty with Israel?
Here's a YouTube clip of the Muslim Brotherhood representative in London saying that Egyptians need to prepare for war with Israel. He claims that the Israelis are protecting Mubarak and that they'll fly him to Israel if they have to.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hqyzu3Fc6wA
I think there's absolutely no question that there are a large number of people in Egypt who would like to see Israel eradicated. Do you disagree?
Fortunately, I also believe that the chances of hard-line Islamic party gaining control of Egypt are slim. But I don't see how anyone can discount that such elements exist, that they're desirous of power, or that the consequences for Mid-East peace could be catastrophic. If you're not reading that in the media then the media that you're reading are simply cheer leading and hoping the consequences sort themselves out later or they're whistling past the graveyard.
If the bloggers can be believed, each day that passes the MB are being marginalized and the majority of the Egyptian population truly are in search of freedom and democracy. I honestly hope this is true and that they succeed.
I think that's what the majority want. As others have pointed out, that's what the majority in Iran wanted in 1978. The key difference is that to date there is no Ayatollah Khomehni figure to rally support and lead moderate groups down the one way path to theocracy.
Napoleon
02-04-11, 05:26 PM
My earlier admonition was precisely because comments like these tend to personalize and politicize the discussion.
Nothing I said was characterizing anyone on this board. It was totally about the source.
Are you arguing that this comment is entirely fictionalized by the Russian source?
I cannot tell if that is where it originated. If it did, I absolutely could see them doing that. They are in the service of a government of authoritarian thugs who have killed their opponents. Which would lead you to the question, if so, why make it up? Your guess is as good as mine. Could be trying to screw things up for us by tossing incendiary stories around. Perhaps some in the government still feel they have a score to settle with the Egyptians whom, if my memory is correct, was the largest/most important client state to walk away from the Soviets during the Cold War era. Hosnie M. was a member of the government that did that (and it appears Putin was already working for the KGB by then). Maybe it is to screw with him by fanning flames.
Are you arguing that there isn't anyone in the Muslim Brotherhood who would like to dissolve the treaty with Israel?
No and I say that in several places up thread. But having members who would like to do something is a whole different thing then an organization that will try institute a certain policy, and that is what I thought we were talking about.
Here is what I would analogize it to. I bet nearly everyone here works for someone else and has some form of boss, if not now then sometime in the past. I bet 100% of those people have wanted to tell some boss along the way to shove it and just walk out the door. I bet though that maybe 0-5% have actually done that. That is the difference between something you would like to do and doing the smart thing, and that is true even if you ignore a pretty good chance that the Egyptian military would react very badly to a government coming to power in Egypt which appears bent on confronting Israel militarily.
Here's a YouTube clip of the Muslim Brotherhood representative in London saying that Egyptians need to prepare for war with Israel. He claims that the Israelis are protecting Mubarak and that they'll fly him to Israel if they have to.
I will have to watch that later.
I think there's absolutely no question that there are a large number of people in Egypt who would like to see Israel eradicated.
The only thing I would quibble with is the work “eradicate” since it could be read as “killing the existing non-Arab citizens”. That said I would be surprised if a large number did not think Israel was illegitimate. By the way, I do not know if this rises to official MB policy, but there are certain leadership elements that advocate that Israel should solve the Palestinian issue with the single state solution. I could walk you through the logic, but suffice it to say most feel that the result of the single state solution would be Jews leaving, or being forced to leave the country. My guess is the individuals advocating that position with the MB know that. Of course at the end of the day it only matters what Israel and the Palestinians agree on when it comes to that question.
But I don't see how anyone can discount that such elements exist, that they're desirous of power, or that the consequences for Mid-East peace could be catastrophic.
I don’t think a fair reading of my earlier post could lead to the conclusion that I don’t think such elements exist. Every country has them, some more then others. By the way, even if hard line, but not insane, elements do come to power, it is still a separate question on if they actually do something like abrogate the peace treaty, let alone anything more. Its not because they are nice guys, its because there are a whole series of reasons that make it not a very smart decision on their part. Bad guys may be bad guys, but they usually know which side of the bread is buttered. And its not buttered on the side that causes tourism to crash, the US to cut off assistance, revenues to plunge from the canal, and in the worst case scenario a whole lot of your young dying in the Sinai desert, or perhaps the hardliners dying in front of a firing squad after a coup.
Now for sure, regardless of how much influence the MB had the non-military blockade of Gaza is going to be dead, likely within a week or two. As to the military blockade I suspect that is where the real action is going to be, not Abrams tanks rolling across the Sinai towards the Temple on the Mount.
I think that's what the majority want. As others have pointed out, that's what the majority in Iran wanted in 1978.
It is worth pointing out others that have gone much better for the people, such as the Philippines, East Germany and Indonesia (which interestingly enough Obama spent some of his youth growing up under that dictatorship which was toppled by its people, and his step father and half sister are Indonesian, so from a family perspective he has had a front seat in one of the more recent of these type events).
Please submit a complete list of "Napoleon Accepted Media" so the rest of us can reduce the amount of sources we parse. Thanks. :)
This is your most trusted source ;) Remember, I am not just known for Waterloo. (http://www.amazon.com/Napoleons-Egypt-Invading-Middle-East/dp/0230606032/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1257134231&sr=8-1)
the MB spawns splinter groups precisely because of its non-violent stance, they've even published a book about their non violent aims decades ago. to the extent that they take a less friendly stance towards Israel, guess Israel should've done a better job managing its relations with Turkey... they're an islamist group, but they're not al qaeda either
further, this is far more akin to Turkey than Iran, the army is completely in control and is secular.
El Baradei and other prominent opposition figures promote secular governance that will include shi'a and copts.
Nothing I said was characterizing anyone on this board. It was totally about the source.
I think you may have misunderstood. I was pointing out two separate comments that seemed to indicate that you didn't take earlier feedback to heart. When you say things like "Neat trick, you..." you personalize the discussion. Discuss the topic and not the poster, please.
I also specifically asked people to stop throwing out commentary about left wing and right wing news sources in this thread. Such comments only politicize and inflame the discussion.
I don’t think a fair reading of my earlier post could lead to the conclusion that I don’t think such elements exist. Every country has them, some more then others. By the way, even if hard line, but not insane, elements do come to power, it is still a separate question on if they actually do something like abrogate the peace treaty, let alone anything more.
This is why I don't understand your arguments. If you accept that such elements exist, why would you so vehemently dismiss any mention of such elements? If you want to argue that those elements are unlikely to gain power in the current environment - as I have - I can understand that. But why attack even the mention of such elements as biased or just outright fabricated?
It is worth pointing out others that have gone much better for the people, such as the Philippines, East Germany and Indonesia (which interestingly enough Obama spent some of his youth growing up under that dictatorship which was toppled by its people, and his step father and half sister are Indonesian, so from a family perspective he has had a front seat in one of the more recent of these type events).
I'm hopeful for the best possible outcome for a free and peaceful Egypt. But Iran isn't the only case where a democratic movement has been co-opted. Lebanon and Gaza both provide examples of nascent democracies on Israel's doorstep being co-opted by Islamist and other anti-Israeli interests.
I also specifically asked people to stop throwing out commentary about left wing and right wing news sources in this thread. Such comments only politicize and inflame the discussion.
But when a source is suspect for whatever reason, we should be able to question the veracity of its reporting. And sometimes that reason has to do with the source being primarily devoted to propaganda from whatever side.
It seems to me that solid critical thinking is more important than avoiding offense, particularly when one side of an argument uses being offended as a tactic to avoid losing the argument.
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