Rep. Gabrielle Giffords Shot in Arizona.

[SurfaceUnits]

Years of cut backs and reductions in mental health facilities.

years of social scientists asking questions like this one: Jared Loughner Case: Should Mentally Ill Be Locked up Against Their Will?

[racer2c]

years of social scientists asking questions like this one: Jared Loughner Case: Should Mentally Ill Be Locked up Against Their Will?

One of his ex girlfriends claims he was as normal as anyone. The shrinks will pump him full of SSRI's and 3 years from now he'll be begging to be released to a minimum security spa and gym. He'll claim it was all his daddy's fault.

[nrc]

Normal as your garden variety conspiracy theorist until he started taking hallucinogens. That'll put a crimp in your insanity defense.

[datachicane]

Why is anyone surprised that he was, until recently, relatively normal? How does that in any way impact the argument that he's mentally ill now?

Loughner's in his early 20s. That's exactly when schizophrenia usually manifests. It happened to a very good friend of mine, one of my High School buddies. It was painful as hell to watch, all the more so because he had seemed perfectly normal just a year or two earlier.

[trish]

years of social scientists asking questions like this one: Jared Loughner Case: Should Mentally Ill Be Locked up Against Their Will?

I vaguely remember when I was very young (pre-teens) watching the NY news station and they had to release people from mental hospitals for a reason I cannot recall.

[Methanolandbrats]

I vaguely remember when I was very young (pre-teens) watching the NY news station and they had to release people from mental hospitals for a reason I cannot recall.

Reagan

[cameraman]

It was an over-reaction to years of really bad mental health policy. We went from one extreme, of people being locked up in truly horrible conditions to an equally extreme position of nobody should be locked up. As per usual both extremes are wrong. A correct policy is somewhere in the middle. We don't have it now and given the current paralysis concerning any kind of policy it isn't getting fixed anytime soon.

I doubt that the current policy makers could agree that the sun rises in the east.:irked:

[Indy]

^^^ What he said.

[racer2c]

Why is anyone surprised that he was, until recently, relatively normal? How does that in any way impact the argument that he's mentally ill now?

Loughner's in his early 20s. That's exactly when schizophrenia usually manifests. It happened to a very good friend of mine, one of my High School buddies. It was painful as hell to watch, all the more so because he had seemed perfectly normal just a year or two earlier.

How many people did he murder?

[datachicane]

How many people did he murder?

:flame:
Don't be a total asshat.



My friend Noah has spent the last 25 years institutionalized and heavily medicated. I'm glad this is all so abstract to you that you feel comfortable joking about it. For some of us, rather than a bunch of the usual innerweb BS, real lives and people are involved.

[nrc]

Why is anyone surprised that he was, until recently, relatively normal? How does that in any way impact the argument that he's mentally ill now?

Loughner's in his early 20s. That's exactly when schizophrenia usually manifests. It happened to a very good friend of mine, one of my High School buddies. It was painful as hell to watch, all the more so because he had seemed perfectly normal just a year or two earlier.

Who said that they were surprised? Loughner's true mental state has yet to be determined but now the question has been raised whether it may be in part due to his use of marijuana and the hallucinogen salvia. If he has created that mental state through drug use then he's as responsible as an alcoholic who gets drunk and kills someone.

[datachicane]

Who said that they were surprised? Loughner's true mental state has yet to be determined but now the question has been raised whether it may be in part due to his use of marijuana and the hallucinogen salvia. If he has created that mental state through drug use then he's as responsible as an alcoholic who gets drunk and kills someone.

Yep, it's all conjecture for now- my point was that he's precisely the age we'd expect this sort of problem to manifest (also conjecture on my part). Frankly, I would seriously doubt that marijuana or hallucinogens had much to do with it (aside from probably a bit of self-medication), but then I'm from Oregon.

[nrc]

Yep, it's all conjecture for now- my point was that he's precisely the age we'd expect this sort of problem to manifest (also conjecture on my part). Frankly, I would seriously doubt that marijuana or hallucinogens had much to do with it (aside from probably a bit of self-medication), but then I'm from Oregon.

Studies have linked the use of cannabis and hallucinogens with an increased likelihood of both psychosis and schizophrenia.

http://www.schizophrenia.com/prevention/cannabis.marijuana.schizophrenia.html
http://www.cosmosmagazine.com/news/1505/biggest-study-yet-links-cannabis-psychosis

It makes no sense to say that this was caused by his brain chemistry being out of wack and then dismiss him dabbling with his brain chemistry in a way that has been shown to greatly increase the chances of mental illness.

[datachicane]

I'm familiar with those studies, but, of course, correlation does not imply causation. An equally plausible alternative explanation is that individuals suffering from incipient mental illness are more likely to self-medicate than the general population. Given the fact that the vast and overwhelming majority of users never develop psychosis or schizophrenia, the fact that non-users can and do, and the multitude of other equally plausible correlations (hereditability, Toxoplasma Gondii infection, etc., etc.), we're left with conjecture and more than a bit of confirmation bias.

I'm no apologist for controlled substance abuse- heck, I barely even drink- and we don't have to look far at all to see their negative consequences, but I'm not ready to chalk this one up to dope.

[racer2c]

:flame:
Don't be a total asshat.



My friend Noah has spent the last 25 years institutionalized and heavily medicated. I'm glad this is all so abstract to you that you feel comfortable joking about it. For some of us, rather than a bunch of the usual innerweb BS, real lives and people are involved.

It wasn't a joke and I didn't mean to offend you or your friend. The risk of assuming that all individuals who commit murder have some high degree of mental incapacity, is that it can be inferred that anyone who is considered abnormal is homicidal. Both conjectures being false in my opinion and frightening to consider.

My wife cried at length as we watched the reporting of this horrible incident. Every time she sees the face of Christina-Taylor Green, the tears flow again. We both are at the edge of our seats hoping and praying that Gabrielle Giffords will continue her amazing recovery. We are polar opposites on the political compass from her, but that is completely irrelevant (although one would never guess from watching the media coverage) as she is a human being who is fighting for her life.

[nrc]

I'm familiar with those studies, but, of course, correlation does not imply causation. An equally plausible alternative explanation is that individuals suffering from incipient mental illness are more likely to self-medicate than the general population. Given the fact that the vast and overwhelming majority of users never develop psychosis or schizophrenia, the fact that non-users can and do, and the multitude of other equally plausible correlations (hereditability, Toxoplasma Gondii infection, etc., etc.), we're left with conjecture and more than a bit of confirmation bias.

I'm not going to argue the research. There are dozens of studies from around the world. It makes no sense to cite mental health research in one instance and dismiss it in the other.


I'm no apologist for controlled substance abuse- heck, I barely even drink- and we don't have to look far at all to see their negative consequences, but I'm not ready to chalk this one up to dope.

I don't think this case can be blamed solely on drug use but it's a factor worthy of discussion and it will likely be an issue in his trial. Certainly more so than the factors that the press and many others assumed from the outset.

[datachicane]

I'm not going to argue the research. There are dozens of studies from around the world. It makes no sense to cite mental health research in one instance and dismiss it in the other.


Well, even in those studies the authors take great pains to explain that this is an observed correlation, not a causal relationship. It makes no sense to cite mental health research and dismiss the authors' conclusions (or lack thereof) while cherrypicking those bits that happen to fit our preconceptions.

In any case, even if the relationship were causal, it's still a long and rocky road to assert ultimate responsibility for the crime on the mentally ill themselves. By that standard, we could also hold people responsible who choose to own cats for any automobile accidents they may be involved in, given that those infected with Toxoplasmosis are roughly 2.5x more likely to be involved in a serious accident than the general population.

[Methanolandbrats]

This thread has reached a new level of strangeness :saywhat: It makes my brain want to punt.

[nrc]

In any case, even if the relationship were causal, it's still a long and rocky road to assert ultimate responsibility for the crime on the mentally ill themselves. By that standard, we could also hold people responsible who choose to own cats for any automobile accidents they may be involved in, given that those infected with Toxoplasmosis are roughly 2.5x more likely to be involved in a serious accident than the general population.

That's a huge leap of logic. As far as I know it's not illegal to own cats in any state.

Everyone is responsible for their actions until proven otherwise. Even most individuals with some form of mental illness are still competent enough to be held responsible for their actions. I don't have a problem leaving that determination to the courts.

I'm just pointing out that Loughner may bare some responsibility for his mental state. Add to that the fact that he left a trail that shows forethought, organization, and understanding of the magnitude and likely consequences of his actions and he may not be as likely to avoid the death penalty as I originally thought.

[Andrew Longman]

I'm just pointing out that Loughner may bare some responsibility for his mental state.There is a point, rightly or wrongly, where if you do something horrible enough society says you pay a huge personal price, even if they show you great sympathy.

If all we are debating is death by lethal injection, life behind white walls, or life behind triple thick razor wire protected from the general population, does it really matter that much (and those really are the choices)? It matters to us, because we want to feel just (and I'm not minimizing that - its huge), but to him it will matter little and it won't lessen the horror of his actions.

But bigger than all that are a) are we just going to resign ourselves to these occasional "outbursts" at life during these time? -- it would seem so in many ways or b) are we going to profoundly change in some way, that might not necessarily be always popular (or even some would say constitutional), to protect us more from the horror of what one single individual can do to so many?

Forget one guy with a Glock, one guy with an envelope of anthrax, or the wheel of a 767, or the control panel of an off shore oil rig, or a suitcase of plutonium, or even a microphone or website can cause a whole lot more damage than anyone imagined not too very long ago.

Maybe that's OK and maybe that's not, but isn't that the question?

[Methanolandbrats]

He planned it. He tried to buy ammo multiple times. He drove there. He ruined multiple lives. Not a bit of difference between him and Tim McVeigh. Convict him and kill him. Taxpayers should not have to pay a million dollars to lock the ******* up for 60 years. :mad:

[JLMannin]

That's a huge leap of logic. As far as I know it's not illegal to own cats in any state.

In a land where correlation is often confused with causation, it's not really a huge leap of logic, but rather testing the proposed solution on another set of data. If the solution provides a ridiculous answer, then the solution is suspect.

[nrc]

In a land where correlation is often confused with causation, it's not really a huge leap of logic, but rather testing the proposed solution on another set of data. If the solution provides a ridiculous answer, then the solution is suspect.

Changing the data isn't a valid test if it doesn't satisfy the relevant facts of the original argument. In this case the point is based on the fact that the activity is illegal. Substituting something that isn't illegal isn't a valid test.

[G.]

This thread has reached a new level of strangeness :saywhat: It makes my brain want to punt.
I hear dat.

Wanna go burn one out in the shed?
:p

[datachicane]

Changing the data isn't a valid test if it doesn't satisfy the relevant facts of the original argument. In this case the point is based on the fact that the activity is illegal. Substituting something that isn't illegal isn't a valid test.

How does the legal status of the correlative factor in any way impact the argument for causation or the validity of the analogy?
No offense, boss, but that's simply disorganized thinking.

The fact remains that even if we accept a causal relationship (something the authors of those studies themselves explicitly do not), we're left trying to reconcile the fact that the assumed causal relationship yields not the crime, but merely a statistically increased propensity for a condition which again yields not the crime itself, but again merely a statistically increased propensity for the crime?

Like I said, that's a long and rocky road to get from here to there.

[nrc]

How does the legal status of the correlative factor in any way impact the argument for causation or the validity of the analogy?
No offense, boss, but that's simply disorganized thinking.

You're not following my point. I'm not arguing causal relationship.

As I said, I'll leave the research studies to the mental health professionals and the legal arguments the legal professionals. But if those professionals draw a link between his drug abuse and his mental state then it will weigh against any arguments that he's not responsible for his actions. That link doesn't have to be causal, it can simply be that the onset may have been precipitated or the symptoms exacerbated.

You have the long and rocky road backwards. Loughner will be assumed responsible for his actions until it's proven otherwise. He'll have a long and rocky road ahead trying to convince an Arizona judge or jury that he's a helpless victim of brain chemistry.

[datachicane]

You and I agree that he'll be held responsible for his actions unless it's proven otherwise, which is as it should be. I'd also agree that, regardless of the facts of the case (and his mental health is purely a matter of conjecture at this point), he's likely to face a very, very stiff sentence. My point is that his possible drug use won't have any impact on that verdict either way.

Frankly, if you're not arguing for a causal relationship, why the heck bring up drug use in the first place? Not causal == not relevant.

[Napoleon]

In a land where correlation is often confused with causation . . .

Years ago I read something on that subject which gave me a huge laugh. Senator Danial Patrick Moynihan was exasperated by some knucklehead's argument that relied on confusing correlation with causation and responded by saying something along the lines of "if correlation equals causation since the closer an American lives to the Canadian border the more likely they are literate perhaps we should solve our literacy problem by moving everyone closer to the Canadian border."

[racer2c]

Sorry folks...changing my opinion. Loughner is incredibly insane and should be locked away in federal institute for the rest of his days. Just read he was inspired by Nietzsche. :yuck:

[Al Czervik]

Sorry folks...changing my opinion. Loughner is incredibly insane and should be locked away in federal institute for the rest of his days. Just read he was inspired by Nietzsche. :yuck:

Helluva linebacker. Why didn't he just tackle her then? :laugh:

[SurfaceUnits]

One of Jared Loughner’s shooting victims was a local leftist activist, James Eric Fuller, who last week was invited to ABC’s taping of “An American Conversation.” There, in front of all the cameras, he interrupted a local tea party activist by uttering what should be considered in this atmosphere to be a blood-curdling threat: “You’re dead!” Police considered these words serious enough to have him removed and involuntarily committed to a mental institution.

looks like AZ authorities have learned a lesson

[gjc2]

One of Jared Loughner’s shooting victims was a local leftist activist, James Eric Fuller, who last week was invited to ABC’s taping of “An American Conversation.” There, in front of all the cameras, he interrupted a local tea party activist by uttering what should be considered in this atmosphere to be a blood-curdling threat: “You’re dead!” Police considered these words serious enough to have him removed and involuntarily committed to a mental institution.

looks like AZ authorities have learned a lesson

As per CNN, Mr. Fuller has apologized for his comments.
I guess that’s good enough for them.

[SurfaceUnits]

As per CNN, Mr. Fuller has apologized for his comments.
I guess that’s good enough for them.

they didnt have time for someones murder threat, they had their crack reporters on the trail of Sarahs latest moose hunt

[Ziggy]

/\:rofl:/\

[gjc2]

they didnt have time for someones murder threat, they had their crack reporters on the trail of Sarahs latest moose hunt

They're in the pocket of the moose lobby.

[Al Czervik]

they didnt have time for someones murder threat, they had their crack reporters on the trail of Sarahs latest moose hunt

Why don't they talk about Sarah's elk hunt?

[cameraman]

There is a collection of articles on the state of the insanity defense at the NY Times.

Abuses After the Hinckley Case by Alan M. Dershowitz (http://www.nytimes.com/roomfordebate/2011/01/20/who-qualifies-for-the-insanity-defense/abuses-after-the-hinckley-case)

Understanding Voluntary Behavior by Dr. Beatriz Luna (http://www.nytimes.com/roomfordebate/2011/01/20/who-qualifies-for-the-insanity-defense/understanding-voluntary-behavior)

When the Focus Is Retribution by James Q. Whitman (http://www.nytimes.com/roomfordebate/2011/01/20/who-qualifies-for-the-insanity-defense/when-the-focus-is-retribution)

Little To Do With Science by Dr. William T. Carpenter Jr (http://www.nytimes.com/roomfordebate/2011/01/20/who-qualifies-for-the-insanity-defense/the-insanity-defense-has-little-to-do-with-science)

Justice vs. Fear by David I. Bruck (http://www.nytimes.com/roomfordebate/2011/01/20/who-qualifies-for-the-insanity-defense/justice-vs-fear)

A Moral, Not a Medical, Question by Kent Scheidegger (http://www.nytimes.com/roomfordebate/2011/01/20/who-qualifies-for-the-insanity-defense/a-moral-not-a-medical-question)

Having now read them all they are rather short & perfunctory... I was hoping for better.

[chop456]

Why don't they talk about Sarah's elk hunt?


That was my Spanish friend's nickname growing up.

[Insomniac]

Does anyone think that Giffords' family should limit the updates on her daily improvements? I get this feeling that it's not the best thing to do long term.

[SteveH]

That was my Spanish friend's nickname growing up.

:rofl::laugh::rofl:

[SurfaceUnits]

‘22‑year‑old kook Casey Brezik wore a bulletproof vest and charged towards Missouri’s Democratic governor Jay Nixon with a knife and attempted to slash his throat. Brezik is an anticapitalist leftists who participated in a number of leftwing protests. He’s also diagnosed a paranoid schizophrenic. Luckily for all involved, Brezik was high on pot at the time and so was a little confused. Instead of slashing the governor’s throat, he slashed the throat of a community college Dean he took for the governor.

http://www.lakeexpo.com/articles/2010/09/16/top_news/05.txt

[Gnam]

Luckily for all involved..., Instead of slashing the governor’s throat, he slashed the throat of a community college Dean he took for the governor.

Yeah, lucky. :gomer:

[G.]

Does anyone think that Giffords' family should limit the updates on her daily improvements? I get this feeling that it's not the best thing to do long term.
Yes.

[Indy]

I guess it's a twitter world, now, but I agree it is inappropriate.

[Andrew Longman]

http://www.npr.org/2011/01/28/133307999/in-tuscons-silent-chaos-rare-medic-kits-were-key?ft=1&f=1001

Kinda cool application of military technology to the general public. Too bad it was seen as necessary to equip paramedics with this though.

[Gnam]

That morning, Deputy Gilbert Caudillo...was one of the first to arrive, jumping out of his car and running across the parking lot.

"I didn't hear anybody screaming, I didn't hear any shouts for help.… Someone said it was silent chaos...

The description of silence is frightening.

[devilmaster]

http://www.npr.org/2011/01/28/133307999/in-tuscons-silent-chaos-rare-medic-kits-were-key?ft=1&f=1001

Kinda cool application of military technology to the general public. Too bad it was seen as necessary to equip paramedics with this though.

When the Canadian Naval Reserves(in their ultimate stupidity) decided to do away with the reserve Medical assistant trade, I took a few items from my unit's med stores for myself.

The first aid kit i keep in my car has similar gear to which the medical kits these police have.

And honestly, I wish there were more people who carry them.

The 'Israeli bandage' is one of the best pieces of medical kit around, and in the Canadian navy, the outer package is designed to also be used if the injury patient is suffering from a external lung puncture. Cover over the hole and tape 3 sides of the package to the body and it will act as a one way chest valve.

wMRklQkfDLE

If you believe in keeping a first aid kit in your car (or anywhere for that matter) having a few of the Israeli bandages, a few st john's slings, gauze pads, hefty scissors and I would think it shouldn't be 100 bucks if you search around for the best price. I'm sure you're local st. johns ambulance (or similar) will find you good prices.

Of course nothing adds to it like a two day first aid course.

[racer2c]

It is the first time since she was shot in the head Jan. 8 that there has been a public confirmation that she has spoken.

http://content.usatoday.com/communities/ondeadline/post/2011/02/politico-giffords-asked-out-loud-for-toast-at-breakfast/1

:thumbup:

[Gnam]

It's only an indirect measure of her progress, but her husband is returning to work at NASA.


from NASA website

STS-134 Update:

NASA astronaut Mark Kelly will resume training as commander of the STS-134 space shuttle mission on Monday, Feb. 7. With the exception of some proficiency training, Kelly has been on personal leave since Jan. 8 to care for his wife, congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords, who was critically wounded in a Tucson, Ariz. shooting.

[racer2c]

It's only an indirect measure of her progress, but her husband is returning to work at NASA.

I saw a headline today that Kelly has conveyed that Gabrielle is able to communicate in complete sentences and may attend shuttle launch. :thumbup:


Giffords' husband, astronaut Mark Kelly, told NBC Nightly News that in the few days since it was reported that the congresswoman spoke some of her first words by asking for "toast," she has advanced significantly.

"Since then, this has really accelerated so you can have, you know, what would be relatively a normal conversation with her on some level," he said.Link (http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/737512)

[nrc]

I saw a headline today that Kelly has conveyed that Gabrielle is able to communicate in complete sentences and may attend shuttle launch. :thumbup:

So better than the average American, then? :gomer:

[devilmaster]

So better than the average American, then? :gomer:

Who are ya, justin bieber? ;)

[racer2c]

So better than the average American, then? :gomer:

I don't understand your comment. :)

[Napoleon]

Navy to name a ship after Giffords. (http://www.navy.mil/view_single.asp?id=115424)

[SurfaceUnits]

Navy to name a ship after Giffords. (http://www.navy.mil/view_single.asp?id=115424)

80 years in congress can't get for ya what a bullet in the head can

[Gnam]

(from wikipedia)
US Navy ships named after women:

1.) USS Hopper, Arleigh Burke-class guided missile destroyer is named for RDML Grace Murray Hopper,
a computer technology pioneer who led the Navy into the digital age.

2.) USS Roosevelt, Arleigh Burke-class guided missile destroyer is explicitly named for both Franklin
Delano Roosevelt and Eleanor Roosevelt.

3.) USNS Sacagawea, She is the second of a new class of replenishment ships.

4.) USNS Mary Sears, an oceanographic survey ship. She was named for Commander Mary Sears.

5.) USNS Amelia Earhart, is a sister ship of Sacagawea.










Where's the USS Danica Patrick? :p

[Methanolandbrats]

I thought you had to be dead to get your name on a boat.

[cameraman]

That's postage stamps.

[Gnam]

(from wikipedia)
US Navy ships named after the living:

1.) USS George Washington, 24-gun Sloop
2.) USS Jefferson, 16-gun Brig
3.) USS Ronald Reagan, aircraft carrier
4.) USS Bob Hope, vehicle cargo ship
5.) USS Jimmy Carter, Seawolf class attack submarine
6.) USS George H. W. Bush, aircraft carrier
7.) USS Nitze, guided missile destroyer, former Secretary of the Navy
8.) USS Gerald R. Ford, aircraft carrier
9.) USS Wayne E. Meyer guided missile destroyer, retired Rear Admiral
10.) USS John Warner, Virgina class attack submarine, Senator

Mostly you gotta be President to get a ship named after you while you are still breathing,
...or tell good jokes. ;)

[Gnam]

That's postage stamps.

What about Elvis? He's still alive.

[grungex]

8nvpRkn_R5g

[SurfaceUnits]

Interesting side story on the Sacajewea dollar: the US Mint spent loads of time & money coming up with the design and on publicity and then when they were ready to announce, some scrub comes in and says, "Ummm, there is no painting or sketch of her, umm, no one knows what she looked like." So the brains decided what a generic injun squawl would have looked like and that is what they used for the dollar.

[Methanolandbrats]

Interesting side story on the Sacajewea dollar: the US Mint spent loads of time & money coming up with the design and on publicity and then when they were ready to announce, some scrub comes in and says, "Ummm, there is no painting or sketch of her, umm, no one knows what she looked like." So the brains decided what a generic injun squawl would have looked like and that is what they used for the dollar.

Shoulda used the land o lakes butter squaw :D

[TKGAngel]

That's postage stamps.

Nope. Living people can be considered by the Citizens Stamp Advisory Committee. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citizens'_Stamp_Advisory_Committee#Selection_guide lines)

[TravelGal]

Nope. Living people can be considered by the Citizens Stamp Advisory Committee. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citizens'_Stamp_Advisory_Committee#Selection_guide lines)

Thanks for finding that link. I was sure I'd read that change. Talk about Government-speak:

2. The Postal Service will consider honoring living men and women who have made extraordinary contributions to American society and culture. These remarkable individuals through their transformative achievements in their respective fields will have made enduring contributions to the United States of America.

[cameraman]

It hasn't happened yet. They are looking to do anything they can to sell stamps. I can't wait for the first Kim Kardashian stamp or maybe the winner of American Idol:shakehead

[Gnam]

Does Danica have to do everything? Geez! :shakehead

http://img832.imageshack.us/img832/7329/19271323113023.jpg

[devilmaster]

(from wikipedia)
US Navy ships named after the living:

1.) USS George Washington, 24-gun Sloop
2.) USS Jefferson, 16-gun Brig
3.) USS Ronald Reagan, aircraft carrier
4.) USS Bob Hope, vehicle cargo ship
5.) USS Jimmy Carter, Seawolf class attack submarine
6.) USS George H. W. Bush, aircraft carrier
7.) USS Nitze, guided missile destroyer, former Secretary of the Navy
8.) USS Gerald R. Ford, aircraft carrier
9.) USS Wayne E. Meyer guided missile destroyer, retired Rear Admiral
10.) USS John Warner, Virgina class attack submarine, Senator

Mostly you gotta be President to get a ship named after you while you are still breathing,
...or tell good jokes. ;)

You forgot the USS Walter Mondale... Its a laundry ship. ;)