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Insomniac
05-16-10, 12:51 PM
Figure I'd start a thread.

I think without bad weather or some weird qualifying, we're starting to see these races are looking like parades at the front.

If Alonso is more aggressive/better at getting past drivers early, how far up does he finish? I say 4th is the best case scenario because he can maybe get one more car (Alguersuari).

If that was Hamilton who started at 24, does he find another place to pass besides out of the tunnel? Alonso had one move on the entire track. The rest of the spots were from pit stops.

No word yet on whether the Schumacher pass on Alonso was legal.

Methanolandbrats
05-16-10, 01:06 PM
That was fun to watch.

Elmo T
05-16-10, 01:48 PM
MGP update from Twitter says:


Michael overtook ALO AFTER the allowed line, but before the finish line. Wait & see.

I wonder how much discussion there was on the radio prior to the safety car pulling off.

Indy
05-16-10, 02:02 PM
Thanks, Speed, for going to NASCAR Raceday at Dover instead of sticking with the Monaco broadcast.

****ing Nastards.

cameraman
05-16-10, 02:35 PM
****ing Nastards.


no ****:shakehead:irked::flame:

cameraman
05-16-10, 02:47 PM
Damon Hill was not impressed.


Mercedes GP’s Michael Schumacher has been penalised by the Monte Carlo race stewards for his overtaking manoeuvre on Ferrari’s Fernando Alonso in the dying moments of the Monaco Grand Prix.

Schumacher was handed a drive-through penalty, which is converted after the race into a 20-second time penalty, dropping him from sixth to 12th in the results.

Schumacher passed Alonso just as the safety car pulled in at the end of Lap 78. The FIA stewards, which included his old sparring partner Damon Hill, have deemed the German breached Article 40.13 of the Sporting Regulations, which states that “if the race ends whilst the safety car is deployed it will enter the pit lane at the end of the last lap and the cars will take the chequered flag as normal without overtaking."

Mercedes will appeal the stewards' decision and a date for that appeal will be set in due course by the FIA. Schumacher’s demotion moves Toro Rosso’s Sebastien Buemi, who had finished in 11th, into the points in tenth place.

Got to say that it should not have gone green if you were not allowed to pass.

Methanolandbrats
05-16-10, 03:12 PM
What a stupid rule. Short version of the rule "the real pace car has left the track, you are to follow the virtual pace car in present order to the checkered flag because the display of the green flag is meaningless". WTF :saywhat:

cameraman
05-16-10, 03:21 PM
A Green/Checkered instead of a NASCAR Green/White:rolleyes:

ilferrari
05-16-10, 03:32 PM
It was not a safety car finish. The safety car was IN at the end of that lap and the course was GREEN, as per green flags everywhere. Yet more FIA incompetence.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cQerOq_7DcA

High Sided
05-16-10, 03:46 PM
^^^ great video interview from Brawn :thumbup:

BarillaGirl
05-16-10, 03:57 PM
I'm just hoping Chandok gets an extremely thorough going over by the race doctor. He could have some bad delayed effects from that little smack in the head. :eek::eek::eek:

Insomniac
05-16-10, 04:12 PM
It did not come across well on TV. You saw the flag wavers all waving green flags and the green LEDs flashing. I know when they announced that the safety car was coming in, I wondered if people would try and pass with a race to the finish line. I also thought it might be for show to let the cars come flying past the S/F.

I guess the rule is clear, and Alonso said:


The team told me we couldn't overtake so when I saw Michael … they will penalise him, so we will end up winning anyway.

It seems Ferrari was aware of the rule and Mercedes wasn't. It's a dumb rule in execution though. Track looked green and it looked like a valid pass to observers.

Insomniac
05-16-10, 04:20 PM
It was not a safety car finish. The safety car was IN at the end of that lap and the course was GREEN, as per green flags everywhere. Yet more FIA incompetence.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cQerOq_7DcA

I guess this is the rule:

The new rule - 40.13 - states: "If the race ends whilst the safety car is deployed it will enter the pitlane at the end of the last lap and the cars will take the chequered flag as normal without overtaking."

They should've communicated this to all teams. I think the most fair thing to do is just restore the positioning, Alonso 6th, Schumacher 7th. Poor job by the FIA and a bad move by the team.

Elmo T
05-16-10, 04:40 PM
:rolleyes:

Chin issues aside, they can't have it both ways.

So the Safety Car WAS deployed, even though it came in?

Or was it like MB's post, the virtual safety car was still out?

And really, stuff happens, just end it under the SC. :shakehead

BarillaGirl
05-16-10, 07:05 PM
:rolleyes:

And really, stuff happens, just end it under the SC. :shakehead

I agree. The impression I got from Hobbes/Varsha/Matchett was that the safety car only got off-track so the racers could pretend they had crossed the line without it. The spirit of the law seemed to be that it would be uncouth to pass under those conditions.

Not sayin' I'm crying in my beer that "Fred" got "uncouthed" by the Chin, but Ralf's brother seems to be crossing a lot of lines this season. It's like he's daring them to penalize him.

pchall
05-16-10, 08:03 PM
Herr Buttmacher must think he's still driving for Ferrari.

NismoZ
05-16-10, 08:27 PM
Best pass of the race, that's all. Alonso got loose, he was ON it. Schumacher goes to the inside, finds traction a hair sooner, issue over. "Green, green, green" means something different in F-1?:rolleyes:If they can't abide a yellow flag finish then just show them BOTH at the line AND the checker and leave all previous lights and flag stations yellow. "Green! green! Hold position!" Yeah, that makes sense.:irked:

opinionated ow
05-16-10, 10:35 PM
:rolleyes:

Chin issues aside, they can't have it both ways.

So the Safety Car WAS deployed, even though it came in?

Or was it like MB's post, the virtual safety car was still out?

And really, stuff happens, just end it under the SC. :shakehead

Exactly. I fail to understand why they had to bugger with a law that has been in place forever! The race is supposed to restart when the cars cross the control line, not at some other point on the track-it isn't short track racing!

Gnam
05-17-10, 01:01 AM
...Ralf's brother seems to be crossing a lot of lines this season. It's like he's daring them to penalize him.

Schumi is the cranky old man of F1. Get off my lawn!

Ignorace of the rules is no excuse, and in fact, should be an additional penalty. ;)
The SPEED broadcast team knew the rules. Why not Mercedes, Brawn, and Schumacher?

Indy
05-17-10, 01:21 AM
As long as the Chin got screwed, I am happy. :laugh:

rosawendel
05-17-10, 08:00 AM
-sigh-

cable went out saturday afternoon. wasn't restored until sunday afternoon. tried to find a stable interweb feed, but that went for naught.

after the cable was fixed on sunday, i was advised that they turned off the wrong customer by mistake. poop on a stick.

did anyone figure out what that new building was to the right of the tunnel entrance?

TrueBrit
05-17-10, 09:53 AM
Herr Buttmacher must think he's still driving for Ferrari.

If that pointy-chinned dirty-cheating-chopping bastard was still driving for the prancing pony everyone in front of him would have been penalized...

Love the fact it was Damon that got to smack him on the chin..:thumbup:

Methanolandbrats
05-17-10, 10:20 AM
Love the fact it was Damon that got to smack him on the chin..:thumbup:

Damon couldn't beat him on the track, but she sure is a "fine" bench racer :p

Elmo T
05-17-10, 10:43 AM
SO... Is there a message or indicator that the race will end under the safety car? By default, if the SC remains on track during the last lap - this means the race will end under the SC?

Do the drivers get a "SC in this LAP" message first?

FWIW, I also checked an older copy of the Sporting Regs (2006) and that section is worded the same.

Seems like leaving the SC on track will solve this problem. :rolleyes:

opinionated ow
05-17-10, 11:04 AM
SO... Is there a message or indicator that the race will end under the safety car? By default, if the SC remains on track during the last lap - this means the race will end under the SC?

Do the drivers get a "SC in this LAP" message first?

FWIW, I also checked an older copy of the Sporting Regs (2006) and that section is worded the same.

Seems like leaving the SC on track will solve this problem. :rolleyes:

So will getting rid of the new for 2010 "Safety Car Line One" which is the stupidest piece of racing legislation in history.

rosawendel
05-17-10, 11:15 AM
i would think that "safety car in this lap" means that you are under the safety car for that entire lap, which doesn't end until you cross start-finish. the safety car just gets out of the way before start-finish, so it's not in the way if there are subsequent laps.

opinionated ow
05-17-10, 11:22 AM
i would think that "safety car in this lap" means that you are under the safety car for that entire lap, which doesn't end until you cross start-finish. the safety car just gets out of the way before start-finish, so it's not in the way if there are subsequent laps.

That's how it was until the FIA dicked with it this season

oddlycalm
05-17-10, 11:50 AM
If Alonso is more aggressive/better at getting past drivers early, how far up does he finish?
Worked out pretty well considering he started from pit lane. Drivers don't get a lot more aggressive than Alonso on overtaking.

Considering how difficult it was for him to pass cars that were 5 seconds a lap off the pace of his Ferrari. Dry weather races are going to continue to be parades under the current regs.

oc

Indy
05-17-10, 12:04 PM
So will getting rid of the new for 2010 "Safety Car Line One" which is the stupidest piece of racing legislation in history.

What was that supposed to accomplish, anyway?

BarillaGirl
05-17-10, 12:40 PM
What was that supposed to accomplish, anyway?

Draining money from teams by forcing them to fly to Paris between races so they can sit outside the principal's office and wait for their "punishment"? :\

Or was that too cynical?

Gnam
05-17-10, 01:16 PM
If that was Hamilton who started at 24, does he find another place to pass besides out of the tunnel? Alonso had one move on the entire track. The rest of the spots were from pit stops.

Alonso may have passed di Grassi, Trulli, Glock, & Kovalainen at the same spot on the track, but each pass was unique and aggressive. How many passes did Hamilton make?

Steve99
05-17-10, 02:47 PM
did anyone figure out what that new building was to the right of the tunnel entrance?
I checked, but Google doesn't seem to have Street View for Monte Carlo.

Alonso got pretty lucky with the Safety Car periods, and several of the drivers just pulled over and let him by.

Insomniac
05-17-10, 02:57 PM
Worked out pretty well considering he started from pit lane. Drivers don't get a lot more aggressive than Alonso on overtaking.

Considering how difficult it was for him to pass cars that were 5 seconds a lap off the pace of his Ferrari. Dry weather races are going to continue to be parades under the current regs.

oc

I wasn't sure if I was being too harsh by simply comparing the passing locations used in previous races.

Insomniac
05-17-10, 03:00 PM
Alonso may have passed di Grassi, Trulli, Glock, & Kovalainen at the same spot on the track, but each pass was unique and aggressive. How many passes did Hamilton make?

I was just using my perceived aggressiveness. I do admit that it was predicated on past races where there were passes on other parts of the track. Personally, I see Hamilton as more aggressive, but more likely to lose his front wing than Alonso.

TrueBrit
05-17-10, 03:41 PM
Damon couldn't beat him on the track, but she sure is a "fine" bench racer :p

Really? Who was it that won the WDC in 1996 by beating EVERYONE (including your dirty-cheating chopping pointy-chinned hero?)

:shakehead

opinionated ow
05-17-10, 07:43 PM
What was that supposed to accomplish, anyway?

I've genuinely got no idea...typical FIA idiocy. The International Sporting Code after nearly 100 years should be set in stone!

Methanolandbrats
05-17-10, 07:47 PM
Really? Who was it that won the WDC in 1996 by beating EVERYONE (including your dirty-cheating chopping pointy-chinned hero?)

:shakehead:D

Elmo T
05-17-10, 07:54 PM
The International Sporting Code after nearly 100 years should be set in stone!

Not really, FIA is more like this ;):

Elizabeth: Wait! You have to take me to shore. According to the Code of the Order of the Brethren...
Barbossa: First, your return to shore was not part of our negotiations nor our agreement so I must do nothing. And secondly, you must be a pirate for the pirate's code to apply and you're not. And thirdly, the code is more what you'd call "guidelines" than actual rules. Welcome aboard the Black Pearl, Miss Turner.

http://i40.tinypic.com/5ufggi.jpg

Steve99
05-17-10, 10:23 PM
did anyone figure out what that new building was to the right of the tunnel entrance?

I just finished watching the GP2 race on my DVR, and I think I saw the building you're talking about. Varsha called it the "motor lobby" for the Fairmont Hotel.

I'd never noticed that small grandstand outside the turn into the tunnel before. Not sure if it was new? There did seem to be quite a few empty seats in the grandstands, but not nearly as many as at the NASCAR race.

indyfan31
05-18-10, 09:36 AM
Really? Who was it that won the WDC in 1996 by beating EVERYONE (including your dirty-cheating chopping pointy-chinned hero?)

:shakehead

And how many of those WDCs does he have? 6? 7? Oh yeah, one.

TrueBrit
05-18-10, 09:42 AM
If the dirty cheating chopping bastard had been thrown out of the WDC in 1994 for his blatant crash, Damon would have had at least two...

I chose not support drivers that will crash into other drivers rather than losing to them in a fair fight...(see Buttmacher v Hill, Buttmacher v Villeneuve)

Elmo T
05-18-10, 10:04 AM
I chose not support drivers that will crash into other drivers rather than losing to them in a fair fight..

NASCAR? :saywhat:;)

I really don't see Hill, or any driver for that matter, extracting their pound of flesh while acting as a race steward or other similar capacity.

SteveH
05-18-10, 10:09 AM
Mercedes did not appeal the penalty.

Hard Driver
05-18-10, 10:28 AM
Personally, I think Monaco is usually a boring race. Only one place to pass, which leads to processions. I understand it has a long history, etc. etc. but as far as entertainment or racing is concerned, if this was a new track for this year it would be crucified as boring and hard to pass.

Indy
05-18-10, 11:27 AM
I don't like Monaco, either.

But I do like what TrueBrit has to say about the Chin and Damon Hill. :thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:

Methanolandbrats
05-18-10, 12:33 PM
I don't like Monaco, either.

But I do like what TrueBrit has to say about the Chin and Damon Hill. :thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:

I like Monaco. It's a combination of tradition, precision driving and danger. It's absolutely stupid to run modern cars there, but they do it anyway. Imagine an engine going Kablammo at the head of the field in the tunnel :eek: There are also places where rubber to rubber contact would launch a car into the side of a building at speed. It's a bit of a throwback to the old tracks that used trees for barriers.

And TrueBrit is biased, the Huns most likely dropped a V2 on his Grandmum's attic and that colors his view ;)

indyfan31
05-18-10, 01:28 PM
Williams has explained the reason for both cars crashing.

Barichello was rear suspension failure. fair enough.

Hulkenberg was front wing failure. Apparently his clutch paddle sensor failed at the start causing him to "touch the back of the HRT car" at turn one which in turn damaged the uprights. this one I got a problem with.

do they actually slow down enough at turn one to warrant using the clutch?
considering the amounts of downforce imposed on a front wing, I would think the uprights would haVe to be pretty damn strong, at least requiring more than a "touch" to break them. just thinkin' out loud.

Sean Malone
05-18-10, 02:14 PM
Personally, I think Monaco is usually a boring race. Only one place to pass, which leads to processions. I understand it has a long history, etc. etc. but as far as entertainment or racing is concerned, if this was a new track for this year it would be crucified as boring and hard to pass.

I think they only race there because of the glamor and history the place offers, however it is probably the track that puts driver skill to the forefront. With all of the controversial tactics used by Senna, his peers often spoke of his incredible, seemingly unnatural ability to be one with the car and make it do things that left others scratching their heads. His 6 wins at Monaco lend to that perception. It is amazing how close to the edge they are at that track with practically zero room for error.

cameraman
05-18-10, 02:21 PM
Apparently his clutch paddle sensor failed at the start causing him to "touch the back of the HRT car" at turn one which in turn damaged the uprights.

He down-shifted to slow the car except the car didn't down-shift so the car didn't slow and pow. The only reason he was behind the HRT car to begin with was the clutch problem didn't allow him to start the formation lap in time and he got bumped to the back of the field.

Steve99
05-18-10, 06:53 PM
^^^
Also, there have been several instances of the front wing pylons failing after contact. The wing itself seems much stronger than its attachments, so it tends to come off in one giant piece.

SPEED crew seems to have missed Hulk's problems on the grid. I thought maybe the clutch caused him to nearly stall on the start, and everyone else got around him. Didn't realize he started at the back.

Indy
05-18-10, 11:17 PM
And TrueBrit is biased, the Huns most likely dropped a V2 on his Grandmum's attic and that colors his view ;)

Hey, I got some Deutsch in me, but I don't have to like the Chin. Even Germs think he is a putz.

TrueBrit
05-19-10, 10:55 PM
And TrueBrit is biased, the Huns most likely dropped a V2 on his Grandmum's attic and that colors his view ;)

..actually Grandad spent a good portion of WWII rearranging german buildings into piles of rubble from a great height...

NismoZ
05-20-10, 06:42 PM
F-1 to change last lap/yellow/SC rule to make up for a lack of clarity. :rofl: Ya think? Let's see, SC in pits, greens flashing and waving...dish out a penalty.:rolleyes: Seriously, WHY the greens and why NOT the car? (leading everyone across the line) Would that just RUIN the victory photo or what? Is it just an F-1 ego thing?