View Full Version : Honda Wants Decision
Corner5
07-16-09, 09:01 AM
Honda wants quick IRL rules decision
Thursday, July 16th 2009, 11:13 GMT
Honda has urged the Indy Racing League to decide on the IndyCar Series' future chassis and engine rules by the end of the year to make sure the changes are implemented for 2012.
Honda Performance Development president Erik Berkman wants the IRL to reopen its round-table discussions with potential new engine manufacturers in a bid to thrash out a rules package.
When the talks started just over a year ago, the initial target had been for a new car specification for 2011, but that has been pushed back a year because it has taken so long to make any further progress.
"If we get into the first quarter of next year and it continues to draw out, we won't be able to do it for 2012," Berkman told this week's AUTOSPORT magazine.
"We need to know by Christmas so we can put it in place and budget for it. There's been some communication, but our last roundtable was some time ago. I would say it's time for us to have another one."
One of the main stumbling blocks in the earlier discussions was the specification of the engine. Honda wanted a V6 unit, while other manufacturers supported an in-line four-cylinder powerplant.
Berkman believes a solution can quickly be found if meetings resume.
"There's nothing that says we can't broker a deal if we all get together in one room, turn up the heat, and agree not to leave until we have a deal," he said.
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/76995
They sound desperate!
stroker
07-16-09, 09:22 AM
they sound more frustrated, to me. We all know that any potential engine manufacturer thinking about getting involved with the IRL would MUCH prefer to get locked in a room with Honda and some new IRL numbut to come to a decision on how to spend their marketing money instead of taking their time to arrive at a policy that'll work best for their respective products.
I don't see that situation going well at all. They're going to have to come to some sort of non-factory based engine format with an affordable engine package. Sounds like Cosworth/Ilmor supplied by the Leeg, to me.
opinionated ow
07-16-09, 10:21 AM
just put sprintcar engines in them. they're cheap, reliable and any moron can do one up.
SurfaceUnits
07-16-09, 10:26 AM
penske said irl needs a common engine formula with nascar
JLMannin
07-16-09, 10:38 AM
penske said irl needs a common formula with nascar
I fixed your quote. :tony:
Sean Malone
07-16-09, 10:50 AM
penske said irl needs a common engine formula with nascar
Are you freakin serious?
Don Quixote
07-16-09, 10:52 AM
I think Honda wants to bring this to a head so they can move on (i.e. pull up stakes). That's OK, with the long line of willing and able engine manufacturers, the IRL doesn't need them. I would expect that the best case scenario for the IRL would be to give Honda everything they want, and maybe, just maybe, Honda stays. Anything short of full capitulation and Honda goes. Who makes the IRL decisions these days, the board? :gomer:
Sean Malone
07-16-09, 11:01 AM
I think Honda wants to bring this to a head so they can move on (i.e. pull up stakes). That's OK, with the long line of willing and able engine manufacturers, the IRL doesn't need them. I would expect that the best case scenario for the IRL would be to give Honda everything they want, and maybe, just maybe, Honda stays. Anything short of full capitulation and Honda goes. Who makes the IRL decisions these days, the board? :gomer:
It gets complicated when Honda is insisting that their future involvement is dependent on another manufacturer coming in which is out of the control of the IRL. Like you said, there are racing engines all over the place, it's getting companies to put their names on them and to invest in ancillary aspects of the series that the IRL needs for it's survival.
It really says something about how much they've sunk when the Indy 500 can't bring a title sponsor to the series.
I think Honda wants to bring this to a head so they can move on (i.e. pull up stakes). That's OK, with the long line of willing and able engine manufacturers, the IRL doesn't need them. I would expect that the best case scenario for the IRL would be to give Honda everything they want, and maybe, just maybe, Honda stays. Anything short of full capitulation and Honda goes. Who makes the IRL decisions these days, the board? :gomer:
When Honda goes, so does the IRL. No red hat brigade. No Honda race sponsorships. And now, no IMS checkbook.
SurfaceUnits
07-16-09, 11:39 AM
Are you freakin serious?
"We need to sit down with everyone and discuss a standard engine package that can be used in NASCAR and the IRL"
I thought that Penske was referring the mooted "universal" engine where the basic core and architecture is adopted across multiple forms of the sport. Honda has been behind this idea but I've only seen it mentioned in connection with the WTCC, WRC, F1, GP2, National TC series and F3 series. It would likely be a V-6 so no NASCAR but the Indycars could subscribe.
The basics of the engine would be the same across the disciplines but for example with F1 it would have some major league forced aspiration to get the power well above the 350ish hp they shoot for in WTCC or WRC.
Common engine forumla with NASCAR might put Honda in Cup. And it wouldn't necessarily guarantee tother manufacturers would come to the IRL. There's that pesky ROI thing to contend with.
Sean Malone
07-16-09, 12:01 PM
Penske is dreaming or trying to use this as a way to help push NASCAR into fuel injection and overhead cams. Honda and supposedly the other potential suppliers are lobbying for smaller displacement, I can't imagine, even if NASCAR acquiesces to the fuel injection and overhead cams that they would go any smaller then 4.0ltr. But I doubt they're interested in changing. What's the motivation?
penske said irl needs a common engine formula with nascar
Grand Sham Crapotype engines and Dallaras. A dream made in gomer heaven.
Cup motors and Dallaras. A dream made for the accountants at Wishart and Methodist. Kaaaaaa-ching!
And Honda is looking for nice way out.
Geez, where have I seen Honda press releases like that before?
Lord Sagamore has washed his hands of the whole deal too...."Lord, we've just hit an ICEBURG! "WELL, figure it out BRainfart and Anglstaddtdt or YOU'LL be TOAST.":rofl:
oddlycalm
07-16-09, 02:49 PM
If anything happens it will be a result of side deals between Honda, Penske and Cosworth. Honda wants another mfg to race against, Penske wants an engine he can port to other series and Kalkovan wants some cash flow.
Brainfart, as per usual, is in a mile over his head and is rather busy trying to find his ass with both hands while grappling the complexities of managing the running order under a full course cautions...
oc
Corner5
07-16-09, 03:20 PM
Here's more-
NEW ENGINE PROCESS IS MOVING SLOWLY
All may be quiet in regards to the new IndyCar Series engine/car package that is tentatively set to debut in 2012 as international automakers continue to cope with a weak economy. But Honda Performance Development president Erik Berkman said on Sunday that he wants his company to have competition from another auto manufacturer rather than be a single-engine supplier to the series.
Some IndyCar Series officials have said that Honda may be open to a single-engine supplier formula, which would help drive costs down while making it easier for the series to keep speeds under control. Volkswagen submitted a plan for board approval to continue its process of considering IndyCar Series participation.
However, IndyCar Series officials had hoped to hear from VW by late April and as the season reaches mid-July, the German automaker has not yet gained that approval.
“I read some comments attributed to Terry Angstadt (IndyCar Series president, commercial division) that indicated we were more open to that but I want to say we have consistently said – and I will continue to say – that we want competition,” Berkman said prior to Sunday’s Honda Indy Toronto. “We are not at a point where we have an absolute consensus amongst potential competitor companies about what the spec should be but I don’t see that as an obstacle to moving forward; we are still talking.”
Berkman did say that the notion that HPD could save money by being a single-source engine supplier would be valid because it would set up a spec at a “safe level.”
“We wouldn’t have to improve performance – we’d just get it right and keep it there and we would save some money,” Berkman said. “But we want competition because we want to spice up the show and bring more fans to the stands and get the thrill of competing and winning. That is the joy of racing – to have competition. As a manufacturer, we want to compete, too.”
Volkswagen, Audi, Porsche, Fiat and Alfa-Romeo continue to express interest in joining the IndyCar Series in 2012. Honda is expected to renew with the series beginning in 2012 but that determination has not been finalized while the long process of the new engine formula continues to evolve.
“No one has opted out – no one has said we are going to fold my cards, I’m done,” Berkman said. “We are still together as strong or as loose as anybody wants to perceive that to be. We still have time – there is no reason to panic.”
Berkman has held to his view that a turbocharged V-6 engine would be the best for his company to continue in the sport. VW is pushing for an inline 4-cylinder engine.
“If we are going to have engine competition, we should knock speeds back to 218 miles per hour at the Indianapolis 500 and then allow engineering development to creep up over a period of time back to the 230 mph number,” Berkman said. “That’s what competition is, to find ways to go faster but not where the top speed is too fast.”
Berkman believes a fundamental direction on the new engine by Christmas of 2009 then they can proceed for a 2012 rollout of the new engine.
“If we get into the first quarter of next year and it continues to draw out, we won’t be able to do it for 2012,” Berkman said. “We need to know by Christmas so we can put it in and budget for it. We’d like to see the chassis change when the engine changes so it is a new package and help the objectives that it sets by bringing costs down for the teams and the stakeholders in the sport. We want to improve safety and driver visibility, closer racing and all of that stuff.”
Honda wants the V6 and the rest want the 4. Who says anyone is interested anymore and they aren't going to give into Honda's demands. Say goodbye.
Sean Malone
07-16-09, 04:12 PM
What does Ilmor do for Honda now? Do they assemble Honda manufactured engines or is the Honda simply a badged Ilmor, I've forgotten out of apathy over the years.
The comment from Honda about single supply means what? Ilmor makes all the engines and various companies badge them? How is that 'competition'?
Geez, where have I seen Honda press releases like that before?
:rofl::laugh::rofl:
Geez, where have I seen Honda press releases like that before?
No kidding. Clarke's retirement made it crystal clear where this was headed.
I like how Porsche & Fiat not returning their calls = five interested manufacturers. Might as well name drop Chrysler, Dodge & Jeep.
They need a miracle for the 2012 engine supplier to matter anyway. The 500 is now attached at the heart to the IRL money pit. Kill one, both die.
Dumbass managed to turn the crown jewel of motorsports into a secondary market speedway with one NASCAR date.
Don Quixote
07-16-09, 06:32 PM
Dumbass managed to turn the crown jewel of motorsports into a secondary market speedway with one NASCAR date.
Well said.
SurfaceUnits
07-16-09, 08:23 PM
Finally, Honda's racing boss Erik Berkman said in Toronto last weekend that some urgency is beginning to enter Honda's picture for determining the 2012 rules.
"I think it's time for us to have a round table meeting," Berkman commented. "We had hoped to have a meeting at Indianapolis in May but it didn't happen. The other engine manufacturers were coming to the 500, but in the end they weren't there, so we didn't meet.
Ha. Sounds like Tony was too busy in May slap-fighting with his sisters to get his Vision on. :tony:
oddlycalm
07-16-09, 09:39 PM
What does Ilmor do for Honda now? Do they assemble Honda manufactured engines or is the Honda simply a badged Ilmor, I've forgotten out of apathy over the years.
The comment from Honda about single supply means what? Ilmor makes all the engines and various companies badge them? How is that 'competition'?
It's a Penske/Ilmor engine badged as a Honda. What is being negotiated in Honda's financial support of a race series that carries their name. It's a straight advertising buy for Honda. They would like another company to help share the cost and give at least the appearance of competition. FWIW, an inline turbo 4 vs a V6 turbo would be the best possible idea. Why they want identical lumps is beyond me. It would be relatively easy to achieve equivalency with a turbo. They wouldn't be interchangeable in the rolling chassis but that introduces actual interest. Identical spec V6's = dull.
To quote Ilmor's website: In 2003 Honda Performance Development entered into a partnership agreement with Ilmor to jointly design and develop an all new Indy Car engine. An extremely successful partnership that remains intact to this day. Not sure what's "extremely successful" about it other than Honda's checks clearing Penske's bank, but whatever. :laugh:
I don't keep track of thing IRL so it's certainly possible I am missing something in all this. If anyone else has contrary info feel free to post it.
oc
stroker
07-16-09, 10:29 PM
Somebody correct me if I'm wrong. Wasn't Honda's 1.5 liter turbo F1 motor a V6?
Why not run a "stockblock" 2 liter I4 turbo vs a 1.5 liter V6 and just have Honda dust off the old F1 mill?
cameraman
07-17-09, 01:21 AM
So just exactly what is Honda advertising by supporting the IRL?
They are selling Fits & Insights and Civics & Accords. Nothing in their entire product line has a single thing to do with the IRL or racing either.
chop456
07-17-09, 01:47 AM
I guess Honda wants to know why they should continue to dedicate resources to something that nobody even knows exists.
They'd get better ROI by running commercials during the 500.
Somebody correct me if I'm wrong. Wasn't Honda's 1.5 liter turbo F1 motor a V6?
Why not run a "stockblock" 2 liter I4 turbo vs a 1.5 liter V6 and just have Honda dust off the old F1 mill?
Yes, Honda's F1 turbo was a V6, as were engines from Ford (Cosworth GBA), Renault, TAG-Porsche, and Motori Moderni. BMW, Zakspeed, and Hart supplied I4s. Alfa Romeo tried a V8. Ferrari raced a V6, tested I4s, and considered a V8. BMW used a production iron block as did Renault at the beginning of their program.
Great stuff and certainly the variety so lacking in current racing. Too bad Brian Brainfart and the rest of the IMS/IRL minions don't have the guts to issue a true engine formula and see who shows up with what. Of course, they certainly won't give up their "pay to play" policy now with all the Hulman George money disappearing.
Napoleon
07-17-09, 09:13 AM
Nothing in their entire product line has a single thing to do with the IRL or racing either.
I read around 5-7 years ago that Honda wanted to be (and be known as) the worlds foremost engine manufacture. Within the last week I read that Honda makes more engines then any other company. It seems to me that "supplying" engines to the IRL fits with these facts.
Sean Malone
07-17-09, 09:57 AM
I read around 5-7 years ago that Honda wanted to be (and be known as) the worlds foremost engine manufacture. Within the last week I read that Honda makes more engines then any other company. It seems to me that "supplying" engines to the IRL fits with these facts.
Right. I believe they have a company mantra 'we're an engine company first'. The problem is...their Honda Indy Car engine is an Ilmor. :gomer: Could be that they will resume making engines if someone else badges the Ilmor, but like someone said above, if the IRL goons are demanding too much to play...
Napoleon
07-17-09, 10:03 AM
Sean, I put "" around supply for a reason. The average joe doesn't know better.
Sean Malone
07-17-09, 10:18 AM
Sean, I put "" around supply for a reason. The average joe doesn't know better.
True, and I suppose they could spin things to say that even though it's a third party builder, they use Honda technology, or they use Honda supplied coffee mugs or wear genuine Honda polo shirts.
This will be mildly interesting to see who blinks first.
This will be mildly interesting to see who blinks first.
Does it really make any difference if a blind man blinks?
Sean Malone
07-17-09, 02:15 PM
Does it really make any difference if a blind man blinks?
meh, I go through phases of optimism. It is so very similar to CART in so many ways that if they introduced a decent road racing car with a proper engine, multi-manufacture involvement (not single source spec) and Road America, now that Tony has been marginalized...I'd call myself a fan. It's strange now because I hate the IRL yet I watch, which makes me an idiot. :\
oddlycalm
07-17-09, 04:50 PM
meh, I go through phases of optimism. It is so very similar to CART in so many ways that if they introduced a decent road racing car with a proper engine, multi-manufacture involvement (not single source spec) and Road America, now that Tony has been marginalized...I'd call myself a fan. It's strange now because I hate the IRL yet I watch, which makes me an idiot. :\
The sad thing is that if there was some way to purge the incompetents and hangers on from the organization they would probably be able to do ok. If they continue to take the dumb & dumber approach they are doomed. When even their hardcore faithful are horrified by the presentation and race rulings you have to wonder who they think the target audience is.
Honda engines that have nothing whatsoever to do with Honda except in name is part and parcel of that idiocy.
oc
Andrew Longman
07-19-09, 10:14 AM
2012 is WAY too late. No one cares now. Why would they care enough then?
Sounds like TG was right on top of this before he left. How long has this debate about engine and chassis specs gone on?
They could go with Cosworth (Ford might even be willing to badge it) and Honda V8 Turbos with DP01 chassis in 2010 if they would simply make a decision now. It immediately improve the product and allow time to do something really cool in 2012.
But its too late for even that IMO.
They could go with Cosworth (Ford might even be willing to badge it) and Honda V8 Turbos with DP01 chassis in 2010 if they would simply make a decision now. It immediately improve the product and allow time to do something really cool in 2012.
That would be interesting, but absent :tony:bucks, there's no $$$ for teams to re-tool, buy a new chassis and parts, etc. Absent :tony:bucks, I can't see more than ~25 cars @ Indy. 2011 is the soonest any change like this could happen, and even that's too late.
-Kevin
stroker
07-19-09, 11:23 AM
See, what puzzles me about the situation is that there are people (Penske, Ganassi, Kalkhoven, Haas, etc.) in a position (title and resources) to fix this thing and none of them are stepping up to the plate. I think their silence and lack of movement speaks volumes.
Unless there are things underway of which we're unaware?
http://lifeofummaslam.files.wordpress.com/2009/03/grave-digging_sml.jpg
Going to the Wayback Machine I have favored (and still do) an I4-turbo arrangement (and would STLL like to see a Mazda "Formula Super Atlantic" car:))...engines by Cosworth, tubs by Swift and/or Panoz. An American driver on each team.:rofl:
At present however how can any new or forward-looking formula ignore hybrid technology, battery power, KERS, new fuels etc? Hell, get out that Lear Vapordyne thing and make it really work this time! Turbos, biofuels, hybrids etc. should be MANDATED. Anyone interested in progress in this area should let the racers figure it out not the government. I should think several billions worth of stimulus money (or a gas tax) might help create a race series that would be relevant to more than the few of us nut-case fans! (I bet a $100,000,000 check to the series winning team to develop successful race-winning technology for the street might just replace the Borg-Warner trophy as a seasonal goal, too:D) Did you hear that IRL guy...he wants to go BACK, slow things down and then creep forward again. Insanity. He's not thinking out of the confines of the Brickyard (not that THAT isn't typical) So what if the average lap speed at Indy drops to 182mph IF the winner gets 88mp"gallon" with zero emissions...silently!?:eek:
miatanut
07-19-09, 07:32 PM
Going to the Wayback Machine I have favored (and still do) an I4-turbo arrangement (and would STLL like to see a Mazda "Formula Super Atlantic" car:))...engines by Cosworth, tubs by Swift and/or Panoz. An American driver on each team.:rofl:
At present however how can any new or forward-looking formula ignore hybrid technology, battery power, KERS, new fuels etc? Hell, get out that Lear Vapordyne thing and make it really work this time! Turbos, biofuels, hybrids etc. should be MANDATED. Anyone interested in progress in this area should let the racers figure it out not the government. I should think several billions worth of stimulus money (or a gas tax) might help create a race series that would be relevant to more than the few of us nut-case fans! (I bet a $100,000,000 check to the series winning team to develop successful race-winning technology for the street might just replace the Borg-Warner trophy as a seasonal goal, too:D) Did you hear that IRL guy...he wants to go BACK, slow things down and then creep forward again. Insanity. He's not thinking out of the confines of the Brickyard (not that THAT isn't typical) So what if the average lap speed at Indy drops to 182mph IF the winner gets 88mp"gallon" with zero emissions...silently!?:eek:
The Super Atlantic would be a quick way to bring over a million fans back.
The rest of that stuff would take huge investment and there needs to be a fan base first to support that, so the Super Atlantic would be a great short-term solution.
I think dropping lap speeds at Indy way back, while I think it would be appropriate, would be a total dud politically, even if it was using nifty new technology. To try to get some interest back in qualifying, they could dump the top side wings and see the return of "It's a new track record*"
*For a non-winged car.
opinionated ow
07-19-09, 07:44 PM
The Super Atlantic would be a quick way to bring over a million fans back.
The rest of that stuff would take huge investment and there needs to be a fan base first to support that, so the Super Atlantic would be a great short-term solution.
I think dropping lap speeds at Indy way back, while I think it would be appropriate, would be a total dud politically, even if it was using nifty new technology. To try to get some interest back in qualifying, they could dump the top side wings and see the return of "It's a new track record*"
*For a non-winged car.
No it won't. There is no way Formula Atlantic in this era can be huge. AOW will always revolve around the Indy 500, especially now that the major competitor has collapsed.
SurfaceUnits
07-19-09, 08:50 PM
AOW will always revolve around the Indy 500,
that's proven to be really successful hasn't it. USAC in the '70s and irl 30 years laters
use the Mazda/AER 2.3T LMP engine. 500HP+; endurance ready
stroker
07-19-09, 08:51 PM
No it won't. There is no way Formula Atlantic in this era can be huge. AOW will always revolve around the Indy 500, especially now that the major competitor has collapsed.
You're assuming IMS will be in a position to refuse whatever formula arises from the ashes.
opinionated ow
07-19-09, 09:10 PM
that's proven to be really successful hasn't it. USAC in the '70s and irl 30 years laters
use the Mazda/AER 2.3T LMP engine. 500HP+; endurance ready
You're assuming IMS will be in a position to refuse whatever formula arises from the ashes.
Now you guys are kidding yourselves. AOW is DEAD. The only race that matter is the Indy 500. There wont be another series to rise from the ashes because there won't be anything to rise from. And like it or not, the one consistent part of all of this AOW saga has been the Indy 500. It has to be the centrepiece just as NASCAR has to have the Daytona 500.
miatanut
07-19-09, 09:10 PM
No it won't. There is no way Formula Atlantic in this era can be huge. AOW will always revolve around the Indy 500, especially now that the major competitor has collapsed.
The whole POINT of Super Atlantic is that it would be a top level series with NO connection to IMS.
You know those big crowds that used to go to CART races and watch on TV? A few have passed from this earth, but most have not. They find no appeal in the current series. The ratings bump since Tony got deposed is not a coincidence.
Super Atlantic, with a nimble, over-powered real driver's car racing on road and street courses and no connection to Tony George and IMS would have appeal for those folks and they would come back.
miatanut
07-19-09, 09:16 PM
Now you guys are kidding yourselves. AOW is DEAD. The only race that matter is the Indy 500. There wont be another series to rise from the ashes because there won't be anything to rise from. And like it or not, the one consistent part of all of this AOW saga has been the Indy 500. It has to be the centrepiece just as NASCAR has to have the Daytona 500.
That would be a bit like us telling you V8Supercars will be gone in two years. It's a bit difficult to know the details of what's going on from so far away. I think the ratings bump since Tony got deposed is just a little hint at the reality. There are literally millions of disgruntled former open wheel fans in the US. A market ready for someone to tap.
opinionated ow
07-19-09, 09:35 PM
The whole POINT of Super Atlantic is that it would be a top level series with NO connection to IMS.
You know those big crowds that used to go to CART races and watch on TV? A few have passed from this earth, but most have not. They find no appeal in the current series. The ratings bump since Tony got deposed is not a coincidence.
Super Atlantic, with a nimble, over-powered real driver's car racing on road and street courses and no connection to Tony George and IMS would have appeal for those folks and they would come back.
That would be a bit like us telling you V8Supercars will be gone in two years. It's a bit difficult to know the details of what's going on from so far away. I think the ratings bump since Tony got deposed is just a little hint at the reality. There are literally millions of disgruntled former open wheel fans in the US. A market ready for someone to tap.
You've been pushing this idea for years. It's not going to happen. But there is no point in arguing with someone who will not step back and take a rational look at the driving factors. Continue with this as you may wish but it will ALWAYS remain a pipe dream. And why would anybody have a pipe dream about a spec series? :confused:
miatanut
07-20-09, 01:18 AM
You've been pushing this idea for years. It's not going to happen. But there is no point in arguing with someone who will not step back and take a rational look at the driving factors. Continue with this as you may wish but it will ALWAYS remain a pipe dream. And why would anybody have a pipe dream about a spec series? :confused:
Actually there are a number of us that have been discussing this, here and elsewhere, and I did not introduce the concept in this thread. It was not intended to be a discussion of what will happen, but of what could happen.
What WILL happen? When the George family tires of propping it up, they will sell it or give it to the Daytona Mafia who will then spend a ton of money promoting it and they will succeed in making it fairly popular again. Only problem is, it will be technically dumbed-down, so few of the original core CART fan base will watch it, leading us back to Super Atlantic as being the only hope.
Hope that is. Not definite reality.
Fortunately, LeMans continues to put on a hell of a show every year and F1 has been pretty interesting the last couple years. :thumbup:
All I know is Tony Cottman soon after his arrival at The League was talking about just such an idea (to Atlantic owners) to possibly replace the Lights cars (a smart bottom up approach) and give Atlantics teams a way in but the big problem was how to keep them from being as fast/faster than the C-wagons. (esp. on roads/streets) He was never taken seriously by Indy people for obvious reasons. So, what do we have?..a feeder series running junk and the top rung with certifiable "vintage" status. Priceless.
I came across a discussion regarding the old DP01 and how it is now the basis for the Formula Superleague car... but with a 4 litre V-12 in the back.
http://www.superleagueformula.com/superleague/Car-Engine/Car-design
Looks like it would be a great machine for the "new" IRL.
I don't know about the eventual success of their "ambitious" business idea of linking football and cars, but they are running what seems to be a good car on some legendary circuits... with plans to expand outside Europe. Good for them. At the very least there is probably some UEFA promo money flowing from the clubs to fund the cars. If it does prove viable, I wonder if the NFL would sign on with a New York Giants or Green Bay Packer car? ;)
Anyway... it is nice to see the Elan DP0? lives on... for now.
extramundane
08-02-09, 12:56 PM
I came across a discussion regarding the old DP01 and how it is now the basis for the Formula Superleague car
According to at least one former Panoz employee, while they have some similar visual cues, they're completely different designs.
According to at least one former Panoz employee, while they have some similar visual cues, they're completely different designs.
Striking family resemblance. Still, I wouldn't be surprised if it were more evolution vs revolution.
Could probably find a way to accommodate a Cosworth Turbo Eight or Judd V-10, in addition to the Menard V-12. Give teams their choice and let them race! Completely off the shelf chassis and engine. Tough to get much cheaper than that.
Too bad the teams don't have money to buy their new cars... whatever they may end up being. :(
I suspect that is what is holding up the whole "car of tomorrow" show right now. No one... manufacturers or teams are willing to foot the bill.
Sean Malone
08-02-09, 02:20 PM
I came across a discussion regarding the old DP01 and how it is now the basis for the Formula Superleague car... but with a 4 litre V-12 in the back.
http://www.superleagueformula.com/superleague/Car-Engine/Car-design
Looks like it would be a great machine for the "new" IRL.
I don't know about the eventual success of their "ambitious" business idea of linking football and cars, but they are running what seems to be a good car on some legendary circuits... with plans to expand outside Europe. Good for them. At the very least there is probably some UEFA promo money flowing from the clubs to fund the cars. If it does prove viable, I wonder if the NFL would sign on with a New York Giants or Green Bay Packer car? ;)
Anyway... it is nice to see the Elan DP0? lives on... for now.
These football/racing minor league series have been trying to get off the ground for at least 10 years. I'm surprised they're still trying.
Final qualifying times - Zolder
1. Sebastien Bourdais FRA Newman-Haas-Lanigan Racing Panoz-Ford 1min 12.821secs
2. Will Power AUS Team Australia Panoz-Ford 1min 13.194secs**
3 Robert Doornbos* NED Minardi Team USA Panoz-Ford 1min 13.067secs
4. Bruno Junqueira BRZ Dale Coyne Racing Panoz-Ford 1min 13.313secs
5. Justin Wilson GBR RSPORTS Panoz-Ford 1min 13.327secs
6. Alex Tagliani CAN RSPORTS Panoz-Ford 1min 13.384secs
7. Paul Tracy CAN Forsythe Racing Panoz-Ford 1min 13.407secs
8. Simon Pagenaud* FRA Team Australia Panoz-Ford 1min 13.436secs
9. Neel Jani* SUI PKV Racing Panoz-Ford 1min 13.555secs
10. Oriol Servia ESP Forsythe Racing Panoz-Ford 1min 13.720secs
11. Jan Heylen BEL Conquest Racing Panoz-Ford 1min 13.768secs
12. Mario Dominguez MEX Minardi Team USA Panoz-Ford 1min 13.810secs
13. Graham Rahal* USA Newman-Haas-Lanigan Racing Panoz-Ford 1min 13.822secs
14. Katherine Legge GBR Dale Coyne Racing Panoz-Ford 1min 13.987secs
15. Tristan Gommendy* FRA PKV Racing Panoz-Ford 1min 13.995secs
16. Ryan Dalziel* GBR Pacific Coast Motorsport Panoz-Ford 1min 14.002secs
17. Alex Figge* USA Pacific Coast Motorsport Panoz-Ford 1min 14.744secs
SuperLeague Qualifying
Group A
Pos. Team Driver Time
1 Flag of Italy A.C. Milan Flag of the Netherlands Robert Doornbos 1:17.309
2 Flag of Spain Sevilla FC Flag of Spain Borja García 1:17.383
3 Flag of England Liverpool F.C. Flag of Spain Adrián Vallés 1:17.587
4 Flag of Germany Borussia Dortmund Flag of the Netherlands Paul Meijer 1:17.733
5 Flag of Switzerland FC Basel Flag of Germany Max Wissel 1:17.798
6 Flag of Scotland Rangers F.C. Flag of the United Kingdom Ryan Dalziel 1:17.839
7 Flag of Italy A.S. Roma Flag of Italy Enrico Toccacelo 1:17.949
8 Flag of Greece Olympiacos CFP Flag of Denmark Kasper Andersen 1:18.812
9 Flag of the Netherlands PSV Eindhoven Flag of the Netherlands Yelmer Buurman 1:19.285
It appears the DP01 Cosworth package is indeed better than the Panoz V-12 that the Super League is using. :cool:
miatanut
08-03-09, 04:37 PM
It appears the DP01 Cosworth package is indeed better than the Panoz V-12 that the Super League is using. :cool:
"Better" is a relative term.
The Superleague car sounds better. Since the late '70's, when cars in a relatively top-level series get going too fast, the sanctioning body gets a contact from their insurance underwriter informing them they need to slow the cars down or self-insure, so series with faster cars are just a little closer to that contact.
If we could have cars which went the speeds of the top-level cars of 30 years ago, but we also got the driver-challenging racing we got 30 years ago, I'd give up the lap time and take that in a heartbeat.
Sean Malone
08-03-09, 05:00 PM
"Better" is a relative term.
The Superleague car sounds better. Since the late '70's, when cars in a relatively top-level series get going too fast, the sanctioning body gets a contact from their insurance underwriter informing them they need to slow the cars down or self-insure, so series with faster cars are just a little closer to that contact.
If we could have cars which went the speeds of the top-level cars of 30 years ago, but we also got the driver-challenging racing we got 30 years ago, I'd give up the lap time and take that in a heartbeat.
Got any proof of that? And I'll take the faster cars any day of the week.
If we could have cars which went the speeds of the top-level cars of 30 years ago, but we also got the driver-challenging racing we got 30 years ago, I'd give up the lap time and take that in a heartbeat.
Trouble is that most drivers today would call those cars "undriveable".
miatanut
08-03-09, 08:00 PM
Got any proof of that? And I'll take the faster cars any day of the week.
The whole drama of Champ Car almost having to cancel Houston version 2.0 because they couldn't get the track certified to the level it had to be was a little peek into the inner workings of that whole process. I'm sure there are still threads around from that little drama. With Formula Fords, it would have been no problem.
It's the reason why "It's a new track record!!!" will never again be heard at Indy.
Trouble is that most drivers today would call those cars "undriveable".
Sadly.
Sean Malone
08-03-09, 08:51 PM
The whole drama of Champ Car almost having to cancel Houston version 2.0 because they couldn't get the track certified to the level it had to be was a little peek into the inner workings of that whole process. I'm sure there are still threads around from that little drama. With Formula Fords, it would have been no problem.
It's the reason why "It's a new track record!!!" will never again be heard at Indy.
Sadly.
I have articles in old mags that refer to individual teams having issues getting covered after accidents, but not series...and now you're saying tracks. I guess my point in questioning this is that after 30 years of being a hard core race fan I've never heard how it's all the insurance companies fault for slowing down race series. New one to me.:gomer:
miatanut
08-03-09, 09:34 PM
I have articles in old mags that refer to individual teams having issues getting covered after accidents, but not series...and now you're saying tracks. I guess my point in questioning this is that after 30 years of being a hard core race fan I've never heard how it's all the insurance companies fault for slowing down race series. New one to me.:gomer:
Part I:
CCWS was having trouble getting Houston 2.0 certified to the FIA standard required by their insurance coverage. No certification>No insurance>No race.
Part II:
There are different grades of FIA track. Faster cars have to meet higher grades. The highest grade is used by F1 and Indycars (& formerly CCWS). When the fastest cars get too fast for the highest grade of track, they have to be slowed down or the sanctioning body loses its insurance coverage. That's the reason for things like the Hanford Device. That's the reason F1 has reduced engine sizes several times over the years. That's the reason F1 has taken downforce away several times over the years. That's the reason CART reduced boost several times over the years. That's the reason CART reduced downforce in the early 90's.
Did you think they were doing these things just for jollies?
The highest grade is used by F1 and Indycars (& formerly CCWS). When
Not quite. F1 is the highest at Grade 1. CART, CCWS and the IRL were/are Grade 2. :saywhat:
FIA Procedures for the Recognition of Motor Racing Circuits (PDF) (http://argent.fia.com/web/fia-public.nsf/9BA5B952AF67D4ABC12575EE003C2609/$FILE/Annexe%20O_2009_09.07.09.pdf)
miatanut
08-04-09, 12:45 AM
Not quite. F1 is the highest at Grade 1. CART, CCWS and the IRL were/are Grade 2. :saywhat:
FIA Procedures for the Recognition of Motor Racing Circuits (PDF) (http://argent.fia.com/web/fia-public.nsf/9BA5B952AF67D4ABC12575EE003C2609/$FILE/Annexe%20O_2009_09.07.09.pdf)
Wow!
My recollection of the Houston dust-up was that the insurance company wanted it to be Grade 1. Maybe FIA considers F1 the only Grade 1 and insurance companies look at it a bit different.
Sean Malone
08-04-09, 08:34 AM
Part I:
CCWS was having trouble getting Houston 2.0 certified to the FIA standard required by their insurance coverage. No certification>No insurance>No race.
Part II:
There are different grades of FIA track. Faster cars have to meet higher grades. The highest grade is used by F1 and Indycars (& formerly CCWS). When the fastest cars get too fast for the highest grade of track, they have to be slowed down or the sanctioning body loses its insurance coverage. That's the reason for things like the Hanford Device. That's the reason F1 has reduced engine sizes several times over the years. That's the reason F1 has taken downforce away several times over the years. That's the reason CART reduced boost several times over the years. That's the reason CART reduced downforce in the early 90's.
Did you think they were doing these things just for jollies?
Like I said, it's the first time I've heard of the insurance companies causing race series to slow their cars down. I've only ever read about individual teams dealing with insurance. BUT IF YOU SAY SO!!!
SurfaceUnits
08-04-09, 10:27 AM
AOW will always revolve around the Indy 500, .
not when there isn't one
the George family sold the Speedway
the Simon Brothers paved it and put up a planned community
Not quite. F1 is the highest at Grade 1. CART, CCWS and the IRL were/are Grade 2. :saywhat:
FIA Procedures for the Recognition of Motor Racing Circuits (PDF) (http://argent.fia.com/web/fia-public.nsf/9BA5B952AF67D4ABC12575EE003C2609/$FILE/Annexe%20O_2009_09.07.09.pdf)
Indeed, the only Grade 1 track CART or IRL will have raced in recent years will be Barber next year. I'd say Montreal but I'm not sure its actually Grade 1 or if street circuits get an exemption.
opinionated ow
08-04-09, 08:27 PM
Indeed, the only Grade 1 track CART or IRL will have raced in recent years will be Barber next year. I'd say Montreal but I'm not sure its actually Grade 1 or if street circuits get an exemption.
Montreal is Grade 1
I choose to forget Grade 1 vs. grade 2 and go back to "better". Yep, we don't have "relative " races and if a ChampCar '01 is 5 secs. BETTER than a Superleaguer I'd say that's proof enough. (I've often wondered about that comparo) Cheaper too, I'll wager. Those two criteria trump "sound" any day and only THAT is debatable, the 5 scs. per lap figure certainly is NOT!
PS-blaming the insurance industry seems to ba all the rage now anyway. It MUST be the reason!:gomer:
Tifosi24
08-04-09, 09:10 PM
The FIA track regulations are nuts. I can see why tracks in North America are reluctant to make major changes to circuit layouts. The one thing I don't like in the regs are that a track designer is informed that offcamber corners or any other interesting corner types are essentially off limits. No wonder why Tilke's tracks are teh suck.
miatanut
08-04-09, 11:53 PM
I choose to forget Grade 1 vs. grade 2 and go back to "better". Yep, we don't have "relative " races and if a ChampCar '01 is 5 secs. BETTER than a Superleaguer I'd say that's proof enough. (I've often wondered about that comparo) Cheaper too, I'll wager. Those two criteria trump "sound" any day and only THAT is debatable, the 5 scs. per lap figure certainly is NOT!
Deal!
I get to watch old F5000's, Can-Am's, F1's, Indycars, LeMans cars, etc. which are five seconds or more a lap slower than a DP-01, sound wonderful, and have that great tail-out attitude that has been gone for many years, at my local vintage event. All on a track which has some real character with trees and drainage ditches near the edge of the track, where you can sit near the track without a giant catch fence in the way, all of this possible because the track is adequate for the slower kinds of racing cars it can accommodate, and you can watch...,well,...nothing, because there aren't any races that use a DP-01. And the cars I get to watch are MUCH cheaper to run than a DP-01.
I think I get a much better deal, but if you think you get a better deal, then it's the ultimate win-win situation! :thumbup:
Well, sure...that's why I've been doing the Brian Redman thing at RA for the last MANY years. Always room for vintage. The sights and sounds are wonderful but it isn't top level competitive pro road racing and I recognize the difference. Loved Mario's comment about how his Lola T-332 F-5000 car of '74-5 was faster than his F-1 rides then. And WAY cheaper, too?:)
indyfan31
08-05-09, 10:45 AM
The FIA track regulations are nuts. I can see why tracks in North America are reluctant to make major changes to circuit layouts. The one thing I don't like in the regs are that a track designer is informed that offcamber corners or any other interesting corner types are essentially off limits. No wonder why Tilke's tracks are teh suck.
Are you serious??? :shakehead
miatanut
08-05-09, 11:53 AM
Well, sure...that's why I've been doing the Brian Redman thing at RA for the last MANY years. Always room for vintage. The sights and sounds are wonderful but it isn't top level competitive pro road racing and I recognize the difference. Loved Mario's comment about how his Lola T-332 F-5000 car of '74-5 was faster than his F-1 rides then. And WAY cheaper, too?:)
Since the cars (F1/CCWS/Indycar/ALMS) are no longer the fastest vehicles humanly possible, because they are limited for safety, how they sound, how they look, and how much good dicing they provide has become more important to me than lap time. I found the last couple years of CCWS to be quite painful and for me, the highlight of my race weekend in Portland was the Spec. Miata race because it provided, by far, the best dicing of the weekend.
miatanut
08-05-09, 11:56 AM
Are you serious??? :shakehead
Refer to the second paragraph of 7.5 in the link emjaya provided. :thumdown:
Dicing, Spec Miata, go-karts, it's all good...but I'd still rather see MLB than Single A down the road in Geneva. Sounds like you must LOVE those fearsome C'types. (Hi to my family at home):p
Andrew Longman
08-05-09, 02:27 PM
Ya'll can just stop now.
I don't think we'd really settle for less than this.
4nkiIu1Ikc8
Or this
9S0BhFg7WJ4
Don Quixote
08-05-09, 03:31 PM
Now that was racing. :thumbup:
Gee, thanks for the reminder. I'm going to slit my wrists now.
Steve99
08-05-09, 04:19 PM
Refer to the second paragraph of 7.5 in the link emjaya provided. :thumdown:
So much for natural terrain road courses. :shakehead :thumdown:
OK, Cleveland! See above!:)
miatanut
08-05-09, 11:32 PM
Ya'll can just stop now.
I don't think we'd really settle for less than this.
Or this
A couple boring street parades. :rofl:
But keep in mind, it was all wrong, because Tony wasn't in his God-given role controlling the sport. That problem has now been fixed. Or was until lately. :tony:
indyfan31
08-06-09, 10:40 AM
Refer to the second paragraph of 7.5 in the link emjaya provided. :thumdown:
un-freakin-believable. So they don't want to make things difficult for the "Best Drivers in the World"? 'Cause water doesn't care which way it drains.
shaggy_socal
08-07-09, 02:31 AM
Now that was racing. :thumbup:
I went to three CART races in 1998. Long Beach, Cleveland and Fontana.
1998 was a very good year.
Refer to the second paragraph of 7.5 in the link emjaya provided. :thumdown:
An adverse incline [aka off camber] is not generally acceptable unless dictated by special circumstances, in which case the entry speed should not exceed 125 kph.
Well, there goes any chance that the F1pointycarnancyboys will ever see Turn 2 at Mid-Ohio.
miatanut
08-07-09, 01:11 PM
I know I'm a bit politically incorrect on this, but I think the circuit safety movement started by Jackie Stewart has gone a bit too far. I thought protecting those bare concrete walls at Indy was the last glaring problem, and that has been fixed.
The cars have become so fast that to have a reasonably safe circuit, it ends up being one devoid of character. We could have much better racing if they would take at least half of the downforce away, so the cars have to go slower in the corners, and wouldn't need such massive run-offs.
Seeing drivers consistently take corners with half the car over the curb at the exit bugs me. Why even have curbs if they don't mean anything and drivers don't get penalized for driving over them? Now, they can't do a tall curb, because the cars go so fast they would get launched if they drove over them. When curbs looked like this:
http://atlasf1.autosport.com/99/bel/preview/nostalgia1.jpg
The drivers stayed away from them.
oddlycalm
08-07-09, 03:57 PM
We could have much better racing if they would take at least half of the downforce away, so the cars have to go slower in the corners, and wouldn't need such massive run-offs.
I think your premise is correct, and in a nutshell that's what went wrong with single seater racing. Aero made the cars faster but in retrospect it took a lot of the fun out of racing and necessitated tracks that are about as feature filled and interesting as billiard tables.
To the extent that they have taken down force off F1 cars they have become more fun to watch, but they need to go much further and get rid of the big front wings. The massive budgets required to develop the aero package has also contributed to making F1 unaffordable for even large companies and nearly impossible for privateers.
On our side of the pond oval racing died when the driver no longer had to back off the throttle, let alone use the brakes. Droning around side by side is a snorefest. The fastest way to get people back in the stands is to drastically reduce down force on the cars. Of course nobody is talking about doing that...
oc
Of course nobody is talking about doing that...
I wonder why that is as its mentioned quite frequently on racing forums. I'd love to see it. Reduce the downforce AND increase the horsepower. Separate the men from the boys.
I wonder why that is as its mentioned quite frequently on racing forums. I'd love to see it. Reduce the downforce AND increase the horsepower. Separate the men from the boys.
As soon as you do that drivers start to complain that the cars are dangerous or "undriveable".
oddlycalm
08-07-09, 07:38 PM
I wonder why that is as its mentioned quite frequently on racing forums. I'd love to see it. Reduce the downforce AND increase the horsepower. Separate the men from the boys.
The usual stuff like organizational inertia and conventional thinking. In F1 there is also the massive investment in wind tunnels and supercomputers.
It's not rocket science. All you have to do is look go to the historics and it's blatantly obvious what when wrong. It's not the paddle shifters, it's that engines got smaller while wings got bigger. We are motorheads, not wingheads. We like racing and the way it stands even a car that is 2 sec quicker can't pass. If you come out of the pits behind a slow car your race is over because you'll never get around.
Not everybody has the sun in their eyes. Dorna hasn't set a date yet but there is little doubt MotoGP is returning to the monster liter bikes. The less powerful bikes resulted in boring races and a flood of riders from the lesser classes. They are right to go back to what was a more successful formula.
oc
As soon as you do that drivers start to complain that the cars are dangerous or "undriveable".
Get new drivers.
I know where to start looking for them.
m07ISn2TwvU
Mouton 1985 Audi S1 (www.youtube.com/watch?v=EKKfzR7dX-c)
Fast enough to make Bobby Unser want to strap in and do it again.
stroker
08-07-09, 11:36 PM
I wonder why that is as its mentioned quite frequently on racing forums. I'd love to see it. Reduce the downforce AND increase the horsepower. Separate the men from the boys.
You could also halve the downforce and the width of the tires, leaving the horsepower alone.
miatanut
08-08-09, 12:04 AM
You could also halve the downforce and the width of the tires, leaving the horsepower alone.
Yup!
The early DFV's produced lots of great racing with a whopping 400 HP.
SurfaceUnits
08-08-09, 05:32 PM
Mazda and AER developed a clean sheet LMP2 engine in 16 weeks and raced at Sebring after only 7 laps of ontrack testing
It was, as Mazdaspeed manager Tod Kaneko pointed out, a mere 16 weeks since the project was started and the first engine had only run on the dyno during the first week in February
AER technical director Oliver Allan recalls, 'The initial brief was to convert the MZR to a race engine, but we saw some issues with that, the biggest being to get a dry sump into the engine in an economical manner. The compromise that we reached was to have a new design of engine, but one heavily based on the MZR. There are no common parts and, while the cams could be said to be of a similar design, they do not carry across.
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