View Full Version : When pilots make less than truck drivers...
oddlycalm
05-13-09, 04:32 PM
... and first officers make waitress money. I've always felt that certified A&P's making less than diesel mechanics was insane and now it's the pilots making pizza delivery wages.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,520028,00.html
Transcripts of the flight's final moments reveal that Renslow and Shaw were chatting about their careers and her lack of experience operating a plane in icy conditions, according to the cockpit voice recorder. The pair were engaged in the discussion even after they noticed the buildup of ice on the windshield and wings of the Dash 8
You want outcomes like the US Air landing in the Hudson River you pay for a pilot like Sully. You want autopilot flying into known icing you don't.
oc
http://www.foxnews.com/photoessay/photoessay_6567_images/0214090254_M_021409_crash2_450.jpg
CNN let him go, but Miles O'Brien laid it all out in a blog post today: http://trueslant.com/milesobrien/2009/05/13/from-sullyto-sullied/
When the airplane started demanding their attention (in most urgent terms) with an automatic “stick-pusher” designed to remind the pilot to push on the yoke, get the nose down and build up some airspeed or face imminent aerodynamic stall, they overruled it – pulling back hard – sealing the outcome.
Holy crap. :shakehead
Sean Malone
05-13-09, 04:51 PM
I just read an article about this. Very heated responses to it also.
Don Quixote
05-13-09, 05:17 PM
Very disturbing. I was happier being blissfully ignorant and thinking that all airline pilots are top notch professionals with tens of thousands of hours in all kinds of conditions.
We're flying Continental Express to Colorado Springs in a couple weeks. :saywhat:
While booking a flight on Continental you are given the option of looking at the on-time performance for the flight. I want to know about the skill level of the pilot. :irked:
My son is a captain at a regional. You'd crap if you knew what he started at 5 years ago.
One "advantage" of the current economic effects on the aviation industry is that its very stagnant right now. Pilots are not moving up. They are logging substantial hours in the crafts they are currently rated for. Also very few new hires. That and the recent increase in the mandatory retirement age from 60 to 65 by the FAA results in a much more experienced flight crew than ever.
oddlycalm
05-13-09, 05:45 PM
Houston, we have a problem. When the kid driving the hotel shuttle bus is getting paid more than the pilot flying right seat... :shakehead
Back before we lost our collective minds these two newbie pilots would have had a decade or more of flying second seat next to someone with thousands of hour of military and ATP experience before being allowed to fly a plane full of people and they would have faced a significant chance of washing out along the way. This wasn't fair to the pilots, now deceased, or the people sitting in back.
oc
Yep... had that conversation with my father last night, and it is the case at Mainline airlines. Before 9/11, Sully is flying a 747, not an A320. But, with fleet reductions, more experienced pilots are finding themselves on smaller planes.
The situation at the regionals is different though.
Michaelhatesfans
05-13-09, 06:38 PM
Houston, we have a problem. When the kid driving the hotel shuttle bus is getting paid more than the pilot flying right seat... :shakehead
No joke. I have a good friend who flew the Dash-8 (same plane that went down in Buffalo) for a regional carrier (a respected one, at that), and he was on peanuts. No exaggeration, he could have made more pumping gas at an ARCO station.
To his credit, in terms of skill he had paid his dues by racking up about a zillion hours as a bush pilot flying through the worst that nature could throw at him up in Alaska, and wasn't phased by much of anything that the west coast could throw at him.
It doesn't take much time to work it out - if it's a flight that's under $100 and there are less than 100 people on board, calculate in the fuel and maintenance, and - oh, yeah, we forgot to pay the pilot.
TKGAngel
05-13-09, 07:05 PM
Very disturbing. I was happier being blissfully ignorant and thinking that all airline pilots are top notch professionals with tens of thousands of hours in all kinds of conditions.
Same here.
And eerily enough, a plane operated by Colgan lost a wheel while landing last night at the Buffalo airport. It was exactly three months after the crash of 3407. No injuries or anything were reported.
We're flying Continental Express to Colorado Springs in a couple weeks. :saywhat:
While booking a flight on Continental you are given the option of looking at the on-time performance for the flight. I want to know about the skill level of the pilot. :irked:
unfortunately expressjet is no longer under CO's banner, know 2 of their pilots, experienced & smart.
unfortunately expressjet is no longer under CO's banner, know 2 of their pilots, experienced & smart.
It still shows this on the confirmation: 'Operated by EXPRESSJET AIRLINES INC doing business as CONTINENTAL EXPRESS '.
opinionated ow
05-13-09, 08:28 PM
I'm glad to see its not just in Australia. Apart from our major airline pilots (Qantas who pay heaps and Jetstar/Virgin Blue who pay not too bad) the pay is garbage. The award wage as an instructor (which you would imagine to be comparable to a school teacher) works out to less than 3/4 of the school teacher's salary before all their bonuses and allowances. I know about this one first hand!
Houston, we have a problem. When the kid driving the hotel shuttle bus is getting paid more than the pilot flying right seat... :shakehead
The FO and the Captain trade off. On one leg the Captain will fly while the FO works the radio. The next leg, they do the other. The FO was flying the Airbus that hit the geese, Sully took over the controls shortly afterwards. Of course, both had thousands of hours.
Because of the way trips are awarded (by seniority) its entirely likely the least experienced FO is paired with the least experienced Captain.
oddlycalm
05-13-09, 10:24 PM
My son is a captain at a regional. You'd crap if you knew what he started at 5 years ago.
I actually have a real good idea. I'd like other folks to know as well. The days when you could walk out of Flight Safety with a shiny new ATP ticket and get a third seat gig on a 727 for $40K/yr (adjusted from 1975 dollars) seem like a distant dream. I was flying back then and I had friends that went that route.
IMO we need a bit stronger framework of regs in place that would limit the amount companies were able to squeeze their flight crews and maintenance budget. Management is always going to be under pressure to squeeze harder and the line between rational and smoking holes in the ground seems hard for financial folks to discern. We saw it when Alaska got a new management team and it wasn't long before they had one go down when a ballscrew in the elevator went away. Massive spalling on the screw = periodic inspections skipped. The shop super doesn't make that decision, it's imposed on him.
If the $99 flight to Cancun has to cost $122 I'm good with that. I don't want to regulate what carrier flies to where and how much they charge but I would like to see us quit pretending the current situation makes any kind of sense.
oc
IMO we need a bit stronger framework of regs in place that would limit the amount companies were able to squeeze their flight crews and maintenance budget.
Flight crew training and maintenance. The rest of it is just routine.
btw flight crews are limited to 100 hours per month and no more than 1,000 per year. But that's essentially from the time the cabin door closes until it reopens at the next destination. The rest doesn't count, usually. When you hear of pilots being paid $83 per hour keep in mind that is for flight hours. A new FO at a regional my be starting at less than $20/hr. I'm sure you know this oc, its for the rest.
I avoid the regionals and don't fly on anything without 100 seats and jet engines if I can avoid it. That's mainly because the discomfort from turbulence and danger from weather factors is greater in those aircraft, but pilot experience is another good reason.
All indications so far are that the pilot just failed in proper stall recovery technique. Icing may have created the stall but it doesn't appear that it was severe enough to prevent a normal stall recovery.
Barring any additional revelations, this really seems like a pilot qualification and training problem. A pilot's first encounter with the stall characteristics of an aircraft type shouldn't be with 50 passengers on board. At the very least there should be required simulator training for stall conditions.
It still shows this on the confirmation: 'Operated by EXPRESSJET AIRLINES INC doing business as CONTINENTAL EXPRESS '.
well ****, looking it up seems that CO brought back EJ last summer. nice:thumbup:
Andrew Longman
05-14-09, 08:12 AM
Commuting and fatigued have to be looked at two. The FO took an overnight flight from her parents home the night before the crash and regularly slept on the couch in the crew room at the airport. The Captain logged in the computer in the crew room at 3am the night before the crash and no one knows where or when he last slept. He commuted from Tampa
http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/2009/05/faa_seeks_to_enforce_eighthour.html
Of course I was reading yesterday about the cause of the crash in USA Today while flying DTW-EWR on a NWA regional.
Stall identification and recovery was standard instruction for general avation private pilots license back in the 70's when I was taking instruction. Flying into known icing and just saying "look at the ice building" ain't gonna cut it.
It's amazing to me these two weren't just allowed to fly cargo and even at that they were a danger to things on the ground.
chop456
05-14-09, 08:23 AM
DTW-EWR
The armpit-to-armpit? :D
Andrew Longman
05-14-09, 10:05 AM
The armpit-to-armpit? :D
No kidding. Twice in two weeks.
At least DTW is always almost completely empty. Even the traffic is better nowadays around Detroit. I guess everyone left.
Sean Malone
05-14-09, 10:23 AM
It's amazing to me these two weren't just allowed to fly cargo and even at that they were a danger to things on the ground.
One article I read said the pilot lied about having 2 certifications that he actually did not have.
oddlycalm
05-14-09, 03:43 PM
Stall identification and recovery was standard instruction for general avation private pilots license back in the 70's when I was taking instruction. Flying into known icing and just saying "look at the ice building" ain't gonna cut it.
It's amazing to me these two weren't just allowed to fly cargo and even at that they were a danger to things on the ground.
I gotta agree, there is nothing about this that is routine or OK. It shouldn't take a stick wiggler to wake you up to an impending stall condition and it's insane that it ever got that far.
Flying a Dash 8 at 10,00ft AGL into known icing then watching the ice build without taking action demonstrates a profound lack of executive function, the kind that comes with serious fatigue. This is like someone came into the cockpit, threatened them with a shotgun, and they remarked on it then went right on with their chat. When the ice was visibly building that was a neon sign flashing that the airplane will stop flying very soon.
oc
If the $99 flight to Cancun has to cost $122 I'm good with that.
oc
you've been flying Aerobus from Austin Monterrey, huh? :D
oddlycalm
05-14-09, 07:19 PM
you've been flying Aerobus from Austin Monterrey, huh? :D
Not me, but I am always looking for a smokin' deal to Yakima...:gomer:
oc
Andrew Longman
05-14-09, 09:53 PM
When the ice was visibly building that was a neon sign flashing that the airplane will stop flying very soon.
oc
Or at least with a Dash 8 that they need faster than normal approach speed. This plane is not prone to ice problems so long as you keep the speed up.
I think the problem was THEY were on autopilot.
I feel a little uncomfortable with so much blame being put on the pilots though. They paid their price, didn't intend kill themselves or others, and weren't motivated as much by greed as the airline (or by complacency in the case of the regulators) was for letting them in the cockpit. Other "experts" allowed this to happen.
oddlycalm
05-15-09, 02:59 PM
I think the problem was THEY were on autopilot.
I feel a little uncomfortable with so much blame being put on the pilots though. They paid their price, didn't intend kill themselves or others, and weren't motivated as much by greed
Right on both counts. They were victims just as the passengers were. Paying them NYC janitorial wages and allowing them to nap in waiting rooms isn't a recipe for success. This is a systemic problem that grew out of deregulation that has not yet been addressed.
The honor system of pre-flight rest that worked when pilots were highly compensated, mostly ex-military, and who worked in highly disciplined operations that had strong internal codes of conduct was not designed for a world where pilots receive poverty level wages and companies are cost driven sweat shops. What we need now is a no sleep no fly system instead of a blind eye and a wink.
oc
Napoleon
05-16-09, 05:14 PM
Here is a link to a story the NY Times is running on regional airline pilots tomorrow.
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/17/nyregion/17pilot.html?hp
Right on both counts. They were victims just as the passengers were. Paying them NYC janitorial wages and allowing them to nap in waiting rooms isn't a recipe for success. This is a systemic problem that grew out of deregulation that has not yet been addressed.
I think that's pushing it a bit far. The errors made were fundamental and can't just be dismissed as the fault of the system. Everyone sitting in the front seat of a commercial aircraft knows their responsibility.
Here is a link to a story the NY Times is running on regional airline pilots tomorrow.
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/17/nyregion/17pilot.html?hp
I've forwarded it to my son, will be interesting to get his take on it.
Napoleon
05-17-09, 12:26 PM
This and a link that it has in it has some interesting info on the investigation.
http://jamesfallows.theatlantic.com/archives/2009/05/more_on_colgan_buffalo_crash.php#more
oddlycalm
05-17-09, 06:32 PM
I think that's pushing it a bit far. The errors made were fundamental and can't just be dismissed as the fault of the system. Everyone sitting in the front seat of a commercial aircraft knows their responsibility.
It's possible I'm overly sensitive as the reason I gave up flying is not having the time to devote every week to keep my IFR (instrument flight rules) skills as sharp as I felt they needed to be. Tough decision, but unlike the chronically sunny area where I learned to fly in this part of the world you can't count on VFR flight to get you home. I've had north of a dozen business acquaintances get dead over the years in IFR conditions. When you fail it's not that you don't know your responsibility, it's that your mind just can't maintain the necessary focus and react quickly enough or you can't maintain positional orientation in the absence of visual information. We see this in racing when drivers loose focus and I could see it in my flying when I didn't stay ahead of the workload because I was rusty. Fatigue will do it as well. They pound this into us during flight school and my naval aviator father and uncle pounded it into me as well.
The pilot work load during an ILS (instrument landing system) approach is daunting. There are multiple radio frequency changes for both Nav and Com as you transition to the TCA (terminal control area) and then pick up the ILS beacon and line up on your glide path. Your communications have to be clear and you need to register what you're being told. While all that is going on you have to manage throttle, prop pitch, stick, rudder, flaps and gear. And that's assuming clear weather. That level of focus is very stressful and these folks are doing it many times per day. Every TCA is different, some, like Boise, even have clockwise traffic patterns so everything is backwards from what you normally do.
When reasonable people make unreasonable mistakes or fail to deal with the fundamentals there is always going be a question of why. I don't think these two kids were trying to get dead. I agree that there is no way to say for certain that sweatshop conditions contributed to the fundamental failure to control the airplane but hours of service limitations exist for a reason and it's why we teach pilots about the effects of fatigue in flight school. These pilots aren't in a war zone, they are doing a routine job in an industrialized society so when significant numbers of regional pilots can't afford to live in such a way as to be able to get the rest they need or eat with regularity during the work day it feels like a systemic problem.
oc
These pilots aren't in a war zone, they are doing a routine job in an industrialized society so when significant numbers of regional pilots can't afford to live in such a way as to be able to get the rest they need or eat with regularity during the work day it feels like a systemic problem.
oc
Agree. I asked my son how close the NY Times article was to what he saw and he said it pretty much nailed it. In many cases for a regional pilot because they are all based out of major cities, they can't find affordable housing and end up commuting. That extends their work day by several hours. For the least senior that's really an issue when they are on reserve, basically on call for X number of days to fill in for a pilot that's ill or on vacation. As they become more senior they can hold a line, or a specific schedule of flights during the month, typically 3 or 4 days of flying in a row. It will take a concerted effort by the airlines and the unions to resolve this issue. Current contracts have extensive work rules that govern amount of flight hours, rest hours, etc. Plus the FAA also has all kinds of regs on this. It would serve the industry well if the airlines and the unions would open up contract negotations to amend current work rules - agreeing in advance to not discuss compensation.
These pilots aren't in a war zone, they are doing a routine job in an industrialized society so when significant numbers of regional pilots can't afford to live in such a way as to be able to get the rest they need or eat with regularity during the work day it feels like a systemic problem.
oc
I agree. I'm certainly not saying that there's nothing wrong with the system or that problems with it didn't contribute to this chain of events.
Andrew Longman
05-17-09, 11:16 PM
You know railroads faced this problem for years without dealing with it. Canada did antique studies on engineers that both scared the crap out of people but also pointed to some solutions.
Locomotives are not planes but the railroad and unions eventually got together about ten years ago and sorted it out and there have been few few fatigue related derailments. Now they just need to keep them from texting
devilmaster
05-18-09, 05:32 AM
You know railroads faced this problem for years without dealing with it. Canada did antique studies on engineers that both scared the crap out of people but also pointed to some solutions.
Locomotives are not planes but the railroad and unions eventually got together about ten years ago and sorted it out and there have been few few fatigue related derailments. Now they just need to keep them from texting
Canada was forced to deal with it because of the Hinton train disaster... unfortunately, and hopefully, this crash will help change the culture to make it safer.
Andrew Longman
05-18-09, 07:54 AM
Canada was forced to deal with it because of the Hinton train disaster... unfortunately, and hopefully, this crash will help change the culture to make it safer.
Apparently it did and the US railroads followed the CN and CP lead. I read a bunch about it years back and don't remember the details but the Canadian study showed greater effects from fatigue and more near misses than anyone had previously known. It got everyone of the dime.
Napoleon
05-18-09, 08:25 AM
. . . but the Canadian study showed greater effects from fatigue . . . .
I am sure that is what the report said, but that is one of those things when I read it I can not help but think "well no s--t, what did you think fatigue would do".
I went to graduate school and I was amazed at the number of my classmates that would kill themselves with all nighters and while I worked very hard, I made sure I got my rest, and I did very well, a lot better then nearly all of the people who would freak out and basically quit sleeping in the run up to finals. And the older I have gotten I have even become more convinced of how important to health and over all performance it is to get enough rest (and more broadly, take care of yourself).
Slightly off topic, but for the above reasons I have long thought that what many hospitals do with newly graduated doctors (interns) is criminally negligent for the very same reasons.
devilmaster
05-18-09, 12:40 PM
There is a one hour documentary on the incident.... Goes by a couple names: either 'Mayday' or 'Crash Scene Investigation'... its on discovery canada here, NatGeo in the states...
going off the top of my head with a little help from wiki, the three man crew (2 in the engine, one in the caboose) finished a shift the night before and had only a max of 3-5 hours sleep possible before they had to be back for the next train. They took it 'on the fly' (jumped on while the other crew jumped off while it slow moved through the station).
The front engine they used only had a deadman's pedal as a safety feature, which was found out that most crew bypass with a heavy weight. The 2nd engine had a buzzer safety button you need to reset every minute or so, but was a less comfortable engine for the crew to work in so they don't usually use it as the main engine.
Its believed that both engine crewmen fell asleep, as well as the caboose crewman (who survived and was totally unreliable in his testimony). The caboose crewman is believed to not be in the cupola where he should be, but at a more comfortable desk below but he can't see the signals from there which would have allowed him to stop the train if he felt it was out of control.
The Foisy commission and report basically lambasted the culture and working practices, and rightfully so. It forced CN and CP (who own alot of railroads in the states now, useless trivia) to come up with new rules on combating fatigue, forced them to build crew accomodations at railyards to allow for max time to rest instead of them finding hotels, and forced better crew comfort on engines along with better safety features, amongst other things.
Like all of the Mayday episodes, it was a good indepth and informative documentary. Hopefully the NTSB goes whole hog and changes that culture as well.
cameraman
05-18-09, 01:18 PM
Slightly off topic, but for the above reasons I have long thought that what many hospitals do with newly graduated doctors (interns) is criminally negligent for the very same reasons.
Not as bad as it used to be. They have instituted limits and mandated rest periods for the same reasons. They still torture them like dogs though.
btw never get sick at the beginning of July, that is when all the new crop of residents start:eek:
Insomniac
05-22-09, 10:39 AM
Another perspective from a small plane/helicopter pilot.
http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/philg/2009/05/21/to-improve-airline-safety-give-all-pilots-the-same-schedule/
He is right that simply paying people more doesn't solve any problems. Especially if you're paying the same people more.
oddlycalm
05-22-09, 02:28 PM
Another perspective from a small plane/helicopter pilot.
Good points. The system is way overdue for an overhaul. Time to recognize that the safety of the paying customers and the crew is more important than preserving an arcane seniority system which exists out of inertia as opposed to common sense and applied experience.
oc
I always assumed airline crews had access to their airlines' club facilities, or at least the employee break room. The seniority issue is also troubling. Not making it transferable is ridiculous. Try telling a CEO he has to start in the mail room of his new company. :shakehead
Insomniac
05-23-09, 12:23 PM
Try telling a CEO he has to start in the mail room of his new company. :shakehead
I don't think it's akin to that. They get paid well and have the same job. They lose the luxury of picking their schedule ahead of others and end up with the crappier ones they were leaving for others before. It seems a bit odd that schedules are designed in a way where it's like a Yankee Swap, so to speak. If all the schedules were more equitable, then they could be assigned randomly and no one would feel like they drew the short straw. (They wouldn't necessarily have to do that.)
I always assumed airline crews had access to their airlines' club facilities, or at least the employee break room. The seniority issue is also troubling. Not making it transferable is ridiculous. Try telling a CEO he has to start in the mail room of his new company. :shakehead
Many have crew lounges.
Seniority becomes a HUGE issue when one airline acquires another. Usually the pilots remaining from the acquired carrier end up screwed. Remaining, being the key word.
devilmaster
05-23-09, 06:15 PM
Try telling a CEO he has to start in the mail room of his new company. :shakehead
;)
http://ia.media-imdb.com/images/M/MV5BMTg5MjE5MTMwMV5BMl5BanBnXkFtZTYwNjA3MDk4._V1._ SX218_SY400_.jpg
Interesting article on pilot training.
http://amfix.blogs.cnn.com/2009/05/28/floridas-pilot-factory/
That my friends is scary as hell.
FWIW - my son has a 4 year degree from Purdue in Aviation Technology, none of that crap above.
oddlycalm
05-28-09, 05:27 PM
That my friends is scary as hell.
FWIW - my son has a 4 year degree from Purdue in Aviation Technology, none of that crap above.
Agreed, and it demonstrates how out of control the industry is. The simple fact that a scam like that can exist within the existing regs demonstrates how far off track we are. This industry isn't a mystery or an experiment, we already know what works and what doesn't.
oc
Front page articles on the Chicago Tribune. You may need to be logged in to view so I copied the both articles
www.chicagotribune.com/business/chi-wed-regionals-growth-0610-jun10,0,4248518.story
chicagotribune.com
Bigger role of small airlines raises safety concerns
Critics worry about long hours, but trade group touts safety
By Julie Johnsson and Jon Hilkevitch
Tribune reporters
June 10, 2009
Nick Fulks says he met the "bare minimum requirements" when, at age 23, with 1,020 hours of flight experience, he was hired to fly jets for a large commuter airline.
Make no mistake: Fulks loves to fly, and he is a serious student of everything aviation.
But the hours are abysmal and the pay is so low that Fulks, who had shared an apartment out of economic necessity, is moving back to his parents' house in Rogers Park two years into his career.
Struggles like his -- handling stress and fatigue and mastering a learning curve in the cockpit that plays out over years -- long have been a standard practice in the airline industry. It is aviation's equivalent to physicians training as a resident.
But as regional carriers become big business, some safety experts question whether pilot fatigue, training and salaries that demand overtime hours are eroding safety standards.
This sector exploded in size and importance this decade as cash-strapped airlines like United, American, Delta, Continental and US Airways shrank their regular operations and outsourced more flying to regional or feeder carriers. These contract partners operate planes, which hold between 10 and 100 passengers, emblazoned with the large carriers' logos.
Once the provider of short puddle-jump flights, regional carriers operate about half of all the commercial airline flights in the U.S. and carry about 20 percent of commercial airline passengers. During a four-year stretch following the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks, the amount of flying they handled nearly tripled, according to data compiled for the Tribune by OAG, which tracks airline data.
Commuter airlines are required to meet the same federal safety and training standards as the major airlines. But a recent spate of accidents involving this sector has heightened concerns that rapid growth at some carriers may have jeopardized safeguards.
The February crash of a Colgan Air/Continental Connection plane that killed 50 people near Buffalo has focused attention on flight-training lapses and the financial pressures faced by pilots who are trying to make a living flying smaller planes. Many regional pilots commute cross country and spend nights in airport crew lounges to save money.
Some question whether the FAA, whose inspectors are stretched thin, has delegated sufficient resources to the sector. Like pilots at the airlines they oversee, inspectors handling regional carriers are the most junior at the agency, said Linda Goodrich, an FAA inspector and vice president of the Professional Aviation Safety Specialists, a union representing the inspectors.
But the trade group representing regional carriers insists they are every bit as safe as their larger counterparts.
"These are not your grandfather's, or even your father's, regional airlines. Today we have one commercial airline industry, and the flight crews all meet the exact same standards," said Roger Cohen, president of the Regional Airline Association.
Some within aviation are concerned passengers will start to avoid smaller jets.
"The perception is out there, so the industry is going to have to address it," said Louis Smith, a retired Northwest Airlines pilot and president of FltOps.com, a consulting and market research firm.
Regional carriers let airlines cap their costs and also tailor plane size to the volume of passengers willing to pay full price, a helpful tool for planning in a tough economy or for service to a small city.
"Quite frankly, smaller aircraft make a lot more sense," said John Schalliol, executive director for South Bend Regional Airport, in northern Indiana. "We would have a few flights a day with the big planes. But with smaller ones, airlines could cater to the public's need with more flight times."
But airlines aren't just flying smaller jets to smaller cities. Chicago-based United Airlines last week ended its mainline service out of Miami, which once served as a hub for its Latin American routes, transferring all flying to its regional partners. Regional carriers operate more flights than do United's pilots: 1,900 to 1,200, daily.
"We work closely with all of our United Express flying partners to ensure they meet FAA and our own high standards," said United spokeswoman Megan McCarthy.
United expects to increase flying by its regional partners, under United Express, 9 percent to 10 percent this year even as the third-largest U.S. carrier slashes its mainline flying. It is not alone.
Feeder airlines are winning contracts to take over flying because they have significantly lower labor costs than major carriers. The largest carriers invest from two to five times as much in pilot pay, benefits and training than do regional airlines, according to data compiled by market research firm AirlineForecasts LLC.
"That's what this is all about: the labor arbitrage," said Vaughn Cordle, a retired airline pilot and chief executive of AirlineForecasts. "Pilots don't mind making $16,000 per year because it's a stepping stone."
There is no direct statistical correlation between pilot pay and safety, Cordle said. But pilots who have to work overtime to stay above the poverty line may be more susceptible to fatigue, a frequent culprit in aviation mishaps. There's also a concern that as regional carriers rapidly add new and larger planes to their fleet, they may not provide adequate training to pilots forced to adjust to different aircraft amid a time crunch, Goodrich said.
Fulks is one of the lucky ones, a pilot employed by a large, stable regional carrier, which he asked not to identify. He has prospects of earning a six-figure income after he pays his dues.
He and his parents spent about $100,000 on his flight education, leading to a starting salary of about $22,000.
"A lot of the first officers I know are almost angry, and some are even jealous of their friends who went into other fields and made big money right out of college," Fulks said. "We're professionals who are responsible for so many lives day in and day out, yet we are so severely underpaid. ... I try not to think that way."
jjohnsson@tribune.com
jhilkevitch@tribune.com
Copyright © 2009, Chicago Tribune
Keep in mind that the FAA restricts pilots from logging more than 100 hours per month and no more than 1,000 per year. My son is guaranteed 75 hours per pay each month regardless of the hours he flies. The time is essentially computed from the time the cabin door closes until it opens again at the destination.
http://www.chicagotribune.com/media/graphic/2009-06/47424652.jpg
www.chicagotribune.com/business/chi-wed-faa-0610-jun10,0,3206529.story
chicagotribune.com
FAA to probe safety of regional airlines
FAA to step up inspections as hearings begin
By Jon Hilkevitch and Julie Johnsson
Tribune reporters
June 10, 2009
Four months after a fatal commuter plane crash that pointed to holes in pilot competency, the federal government on Tuesday launched an investigation of the nation's smaller airlines.
The Federal Aviation Administration's vow to step up inspections of how regional airlines train, and work, their pilots was issued under the pressure of congressional hearings that begin Wednesday. The hearings will look at how closely the FAA polices airline adherence to safety standards, as well as explore pilot workforce issues at regional carriers.
Through public hearings and media coverage, the public is getting an unprecedented view into the life of regional airline pilots in the aftermath of the deadly accident involving Colgan Air/Continental Connection Flight 3407 in upstate New York in February. Many regional pilots work second jobs to feed their families. Many commute to work as passengers before starting their workday in the cockpit.
The commuter pilot job is arguably the most difficult in the industry, involving more takeoffs and landings -- the most dangerous phases of flight -- than veteran pilots who fly longer routes for the major airlines. It's not unusual for regional pilots to have been awake 24 hours by the time their final flight of the day parks at the gate, authorities said.
The new FAA inspections are occurring amid the safest period on record for the commercial airline industry. The accident rate over the last decade has fallen to one fatal accident a year for every 10 million flight hours, down from about three fatal accidents annually in the previous 10 years, according to the National Transportation Safety Board.
While the FAA officially has held major airlines and their regional partners to the same regulatory standards since the mid-1990s, safety experts contend compliance sometimes veers off course at the smaller carriers. It's a risk that likely is more pronounced now with airlines struggling financially.
"I don't think people are intentionally cutting corners in terms of training, working with fewer pilots and less equipment, but I do have some concerns when you go from carrier to carrier," said Frank Ayers, chairman of the flight-training department at Embry-Riddle Aeronautical University.
One problem is inconsistent oversight by FAA inspectors. "You can go to one area of the country and there's not a lot of oversight. In other areas, the FAA is riding herd," said safety consultant John Goglia, a former NTSB board member.
The crash of the Continental regional turbo-prop spurred the FAA to act. It has invited airline industry officials to a summit on Monday to explore ways to improve airline safety, pilot training and cockpit discipline.
All 49 people aboard the Continental plane, operated by Colgan Air, and one person on the ground were killed when the aircraft went down. Numerous errors committed by the captain and first officer, the crew's limited experience flying in icy weather and warning signs about pilot fatigue were disclosed at a safety board hearing last month.
At next week's meeting, FAA officials plan to solicit ideas from the airlines to raise the safety bar higher, said agency spokeswoman Laura Brown.
Ayers said higher salaries would take a lot of pressure off young regional airline pilots.
"Trying to make ends meet on $21,000 to $30,000 isn't easy," he said.
But the Regional Airline Association countered that there is no link between safety and pilot salaries.
"The airline business has never made a profit. Airlines have cut salaries, reduced pension benefits and gone through bankruptcies," said Roger Cohen, president of the association. "Airfares have gone down so passengers can fly at the kind of bargain rates they have been flying for years. The one thing that has improved is safety."
jhilkevitch@tribune.com
jjohnsson@tribune.com
Copyright © 2009, Chicago Tribune
oddlycalm
06-10-09, 01:38 PM
Good article. I've seen links to it around the net so it should get a fair amount of attention. Once again, it's a newspaper that did all the reporting...
But the Regional Airline Association countered that there is no link between safety and pilot salaries.
"The airline business has never made a profit. Airlines have cut salaries, reduced pension benefits and gone through bankruptcies," said Roger Cohen, president of the association. "Airfares have gone down so passengers can fly at the kind of bargain rates they have been flying for years. The one thing that has improved is safety."
So the message is what, theirs is not a viable business model under deregulation? The public has a divine right to 3rd world airfares? Safety exists on it's own in a bubble apart from the flight and maintenance personnel and their circumstances?
With that level of illogic it sounds to me like they hired one of the IRL's PR hacks. :gomer:
oc
Following 9-11 I saw a report on the health of the airline industry and was surprised to learn at that time the airline industry since inception had a cumulative loss. It certainly hasn't gotten any better since then.
oddlycalm
06-10-09, 02:18 PM
Following 9-11 I saw a report on the health of the airline industry and was surprised to learn at that time the airline industry since inception had a cumulative loss. It certainly hasn't gotten any better since then.
I've seen that as well. My comment is that if it wasn't profitable under full regulation, and it's not profitable post deregulation then it's not a business at all and is, in fact, a hobby. :D
Seriously, the industry making a compelling argument that air travel should be a licensed monopoly and shouldn't be run as a competitive business at all, which is, ironically, right where we started. :\
oc
Sean Malone
06-10-09, 02:23 PM
I've seen that as well. My comment is that if it wasn't profitable under full regulation, and it's not profitable post deregulation then it's not a business at all and is, in fact, a hobby. :D
Seriously, the industry making a compelling argument that air travel should be a licensed monopoly and shouldn't be run as a competitive business at all, which is, ironically, right where we started. :\
oc
Maybe Super Prez will buy it all up, lock, stock and barrel.
cameraman
06-10-09, 02:47 PM
I've seen that as well. My comment is that if it wasn't profitable under full regulation, and it's not profitable post deregulation then it's not a business at all and is, in fact, a hobby. :D
oc
The problem is the fallacy of cheap airfare.
Running a safe, professional airline isn't anything like cheap.
The problem is the fallacy of cheap airfare.
Running a safe, professional airline isn't anything like cheap.
Yet Southwest does both very well.
-Kevin
cameraman
06-10-09, 04:09 PM
Yet Southwest does both very well.
-Kevin
The same Southwest that lost $91 million last quarter, just added a whole raft of pet, baggage & unaccompanied children charges and where the pilots just voted down the new 5 year contract?
TravelGal
06-10-09, 08:06 PM
One article I read said the pilot lied about having 2 certifications that he actually did not have.
Just catching this thread as it started when I was traveling.
Sean has hit the current nail on the head. I've already deleted my daily briefings from earlier this week but they cite troubling statistics about how many regional airline pilots either falsified records or failed the required tests multiple times but are still allowed to fly.
oddlycalm
06-11-09, 07:19 PM
they cite troubling statistics about how many regional airline pilots either falsified records or failed the required tests multiple times but are still allowed to fly.
Now there is some comforting information...:eek:
oc
Obama administration wants change :D
http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2009-06-15-faa-hoursrules_N.htm?csp=34
My son emailed this article to me. Its kind of a non-issue at his employer as his union contract work rules are much stricter than the FAA minimums.
Napoleon
06-16-09, 08:41 AM
. . .and was surprised to learn at that time the airline industry since inception had a cumulative loss.
I heard that a few years ago along with the numbers which were stunning. I made a mental note never to invest in an airline (side note also, when oil prices were running up a year or so ago I read an article detailing how the price of oil was approaching the point where the entire business model for being able to run the air passenger system we have profitably falls apart).
Andrew Longman
06-16-09, 10:19 AM
Seriously, the industry making a compelling argument that air travel should be a licensed monopoly and shouldn't be run as a competitive business at all, which is, ironically, right where we started. :\
oc
Well there isn't a passenger railroad on the planet that can make a profit without massive government subsedies. The airline already don't pay their share or the cost of building airports and maintaining air traffic control, etc. Perhaps we should just get real about the actual business model.
If I am correct, BOAC, Swissair, Air France, Quantas, etc. were all nationalized orginally, no?
Methanolandbrats
06-16-09, 10:57 AM
Well there isn't a passenger railroad on the planet that can make a profit without massive government subsedies. The airline already don't pay their share or the cost of building airports and maintaining air traffic control, etc. Perhaps we should just get real about the actual business model.
If I am correct, BOAC, Swissair, Air France, Quantas, etc. were all nationalized orginally, no? Correct. Airlines have never been a "business" or an investment. They should be viewed as a utility and run under one roof.
Napoleon
06-16-09, 11:25 AM
Well there isn't a passenger railroad on the planet that can make a profit without massive government subsidies.
While we are at it that would apply to the trucking industry, and passenger cars, as well since road building is heavily subsidized. Heck, take it back to the 1790's and Alexander Hamilton spending Federal Treasury money on canals. Transportation in this country and others has always been heavily dependant on government intervention in the "free markets" which in reality have never existed in large scale transportation.
(by the way, it also applies to freight train service since the rails themselves were initially built with massive federal intervention).
According to my son, significant changes to work rules are being discussed by the FAA.
Then there's this.....
From the Los Angeles Times
COLUMN ONE
LAX parking lot is home away from home for airline workers
Buffeted by their industry's turbulence, airline employees save money by living part time in a motor home colony at LAX.
By Dan Weikel
http://www.latimes.com/media/photo/2009-07/48131764.jpg
Todd Swenson, 40, a first officer with Alaska Airlines, relaxes inside his Coachman trailer in Parking Lot B at Los Angeles International Airport. His home is in Fresno, but he stays in the trailer when he’s on duty.
More photos >>> (http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-lax-lot_ss,0,2362810.htmlstory)
July 20, 2009
For about 15 days a month, Alaska Airlines pilot Jim Lancaster lives in a motor home in Parking Lot B near the southernmost runway at Los Angeles International Airport.
Every four minutes, a jetliner or turboprop roars in -- 500 feet above his front door -- for a landing. The noise is so loud it forces Lancaster to pause during conversations. But he doesn't mind. Lancaster puts up with the smell of jet fuel and screaming engines to save time and money.
The 60-year-old aviator's primary residence is a cottage he shares with his wife overlooking a quiet bay off Puget Sound in Washington state. Living in Lot B while he's on duty means he doesn't have to rent a Los Angeles apartment with other pilots or spend 12 hours a day commuting to and from the Seattle area.
"As kids we used to ask our parents to take us to the airport to see the planes," Lancaster quipped. "Now I get to live at the airport."
The rest of the article is here (http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-lax-colony20-2009jul20,0,4549617.story)
miatanut
07-21-09, 01:25 PM
I've seen that as well. My comment is that if it wasn't profitable under full regulation, and it's not profitable post deregulation then it's not a business at all and is, in fact, a hobby. :D
It WAS profitable under full regulation. All the losses since deregulation erased that. Deregulation was a good deal for consumers, though!
Pretty amazing that such a capital-intensive business can't make money.
Napoleon
07-25-09, 01:32 PM
According to my son, significant changes to work rules are being discussed by the FAA.
Then there's this.....
The rest of the article is here (http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-lax-colony20-2009jul20,0,4549617.story)
Yesterday driving home and listening to "All Things Considered" on NPR (their evening drive time show) they did a show on this.
What do you know, the Google is my friend:
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=106970003
change is on the way
FAA Chief Says He Will Ensure That New Rules on Pilot Fatigue Move Forward
By Sholnn Freeman
Washington Post Staff Writer
Thursday, August 6, 2009
Two days after The Washington Post published an examination of the living conditions endured by some pilots for regional airlines, Federal Aviation Administrator J. Randolph Babbitt said he will "close the gap" if a government rulemaking committee fails to develop regulations aimed at curbing pilot fatigue.
"We know too much," Babbitt said Wednesday in an address to the Air Line Pilots Association (ALPA). "We have too much science in hand. We know too much about fatigue."
Complete article here (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/08/05/AR2009080503566.html)
oddlycalm
08-10-09, 03:48 PM
change is on the way[/URL]I wish them well, but I don't see this going far or well. The airlines have their backs to the wall on cost of operation and they have shown that they are willing to sue to block or delay any rules changes.
On the other side is the rather too obvious reality that their employees are not machines and they can't function properly if they can't live normal lives. When they can't function properly they are a danger to the passengers and themselves.
oc
The FAA is pushing the change and the unions are behind it. Same with the media and the flying public.
In other words, the cost of your plane ticket will increase. But it will be somewhat safer.
Northwest lost over the upper Midwest.
Federal officials said Thursday they were investigating whether pilot fatigue was a factor in a Northwest Airlines jet overflying the Minneapolis airport by 150 miles before crew members discovered their mistake and turned around.
The Federal Aviation Administration said the crew told authorities they became distracted during a heated discussion over airline policy and lost track of where they were.
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/n/a/2009/10/22/national/a122403D11.DTL&tsp=1#ixzz0UhhAX4VE
"And here's another thing I don't like..." :laugh:
cameraman
10-22-09, 06:01 PM
Sounds like a career-ender to me.
:saywhat:
oddlycalm
10-22-09, 07:01 PM
You got love the "heated argument" excuse, particularly in an age of cockpit voice recorders. :laugh:
Interesting that they are only just now waking up (pun intended :gomer:) to to fact that undiagnosed sleep apnea poses a serious risk. I would have thought this would be obvious enough to warrant screening as part of the medical but I'd have been wrong. Particularly as it's so easily treated.
oc
Good stuff here: http://minnesota.publicradio.org/collections/special/columns/news_cut/archive/2009/10/tales_from_the_flight_deck.shtml
TravelGal
10-23-09, 02:03 AM
Sounds like a career-ender to me.
:saywhat:
My favorite comment so far is one announcer wondering whether the passengers would get credit for the additional frequent flier miles.
where's the benny hill music?
chop456
10-23-09, 05:26 AM
where's the benny hill music?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OUufqpx-5Pk
You think the flight attendants would recognize that someone was not right. They fly those routes and I assume there is some rhythm or pattern to the flights. Like why aren't we descending by now or something like that.
OT - I have to fly Northwest for the first time next week - a stop in Detroit to the final destination in Appleton. Maybe I will have a nice flyover of the Canadian Rockies. :saywhat:
more follow up, but no explanation yet:
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/n/a/2009/10/22/national/a122403D11.DTL&tsp=1
Also says the FA's tried to reach the pilots via intercom. My guess is their inflight movie was running long, and they just wanted to see the ending. ;)
Napoleon
10-23-09, 05:57 PM
You got love the "heated argument" excuse, particularly in an age of cockpit voice recorders. :laugh:
Ya know, that is the first thing I thought of but I just heard on the TV that the plane they were in has an old system that only records the last 30 minutes, so all that tape of them snoring, er, rather arguing, has been taped over.
I know it's dangerous, but the thought of two pilots slumped in their chairs snoring away while they sail over their destination at 37,000 ft and 500 mph makes me laugh. :laugh:
oddlycalm
10-23-09, 07:08 PM
I know it's dangerous, but the thought of two pilots slumped in their chairs snoring away while they sail over their destination at 37,000 ft and 500 mph makes me laugh. :laugh:
NW's new slogan "We get you close to where you're going." :gomer:
I also heard about reclining chairs being installed in the cockpit for the special new "sleeper service."
oc
Michaelhatesfans
10-23-09, 09:46 PM
http://celuloidesensujugo.files.wordpress.com/2007/11/4th-airplane.jpg
The interesting thing about the flight path is that there appears to be a course change probably only 150 or so miles out to line-up with the destination. Seems like that would have been during the time they were out of contact.
Napoleon
10-24-09, 06:34 AM
NW's new slogan "We get you close to where you're going."
OK, that gave me my morning chuckle.
The interesting thing about the flight path is that there appears to be a course change probably only 150 or so miles out to line-up with the destination. Seems like that would have been during the time they were out of contact.
Could the autopiliot do that?
One thing I read (or heard) when it first happened was that it was possible that they had the radio tuned to the wrong frequency. That would explain them being out of touch but still making a course correction and then going on to fall to sleep, particularly since they now have lost one thing that would keep them awake, the tower calling them. The TV story last night said it was the stewardesses calling the pilots on the intercom that woke them. The fact it was that and not the tower repeatedly calling them suggest what may have gone wrong. It would be interesting to find out if the contact was lost when control of the aircraft was tossed from one control center to another (although you would think that procedure would be that you "check in" with the new center to make sure you have contact).
This has not been a stellar week for Delta/Northwest. It started with this (http://www.cbsatlanta.com/news/21398570/detail.html)...
Delta Plane Lands On Taxiway, Misses Runway
Retired Pilot Offers Possible Explanation For Runway Mishap
By Harry Samler, CBS Atlanta Reporter
POSTED: 10:26 pm EDT October 22, 2009
UPDATED: 10:11 am EDT October 23, 2009
facebookdel.icio.usbuzzdiggreddit›› Email›› Print
ATLANTA -- The Boeing 767 was at the end of a 10 hour flight when it made its final approach Monday at 6 a.m. The plane was set to land on runway 27 right.
Due to an on board medical emergency, the NTSB confirms that the tower cleared the airliner to land on a runway closer to the terminal. But instead of landing on runway 27 left, the plane landed on the adjacent taxiway. CBS Atlanta spoke with retired Delta pilot Dennis Waldrup about the incident. Waldrup spent 27 years with Delta based in Atlanta.
"Every pilot worries about making a mistake, not necessarily like this, but there are things that can go wrong."
Captain Waldrup said there are a number of factors that could have contributed to the mistake. Fatigue at the end of the 10 hour flight is one possibility. Because of the medical emergency, there also could have been some confusion once the tower changed the landing runway to get the plane closer to the terminal.
"A lot of things were going on. It was dawn, and they [the pilots] probably didn't change their radio frequency to give them the information on the new runway, they just did it visually."
The NTSB has assigned a team of investigators to figure out what caused the mistake. Both pilots are on leave until the investigation is complete.
Captain Waldrup adds, " There will be some retraining. A lot of people are going to learn from this. It's something that will be practiced in the simulators, trying to set up similar situations."
Thankfully it was 6 am when this happened. I shudder to think what could have happened if it were two hours later when the airport is 100% active.
oddlycalm
10-24-09, 04:41 PM
"A lot of things were going on. It was dawn, and they [the pilots] probably didn't change their radio frequency to give them the information on the new runway, they just did it visually."
They very obviously weren't using the ILS (instrument landing system) beacon or they would have intercepted the beacon at the outer marker, turned onto the correct heading, and followed the glide slope down to the runway. One reason ILS was invented was to avoid this kind of mistake in a busy TCA (terminal control area). Not all the hazards from this kind of mistake are on the ground, mid-airs could result as well. Each runway has it's own ILS frequency.
Choosing a VFR (visual flight rules) landing at a major airport after a 10hr flight seems an odd/poor choice. More than likely they got behind on the work load in the cockpit and said screw the ILS or they missed intercepting the ILS beacon at the outer marker (wrong frequency entered?) and didn't want to go around and do it again due to the medical emergency.
oc
Can we all agree that deregulating the industry was a mistake?
Laptops & scheduling software? What you have here are a couple or wild and crazy guys. :p
Two Northwest Airlines pilots have told federal investigators that they were going over schedules using their laptop computers in violation of company policy while their plane overflew their Minneapolis destination by 150 miles, the National Transportation Safety Board said Monday.
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/n/a/2009/10/26/national/w115448D53.DTL&tsp=1
Hard to believe.
Time for them to look for a new career.
http://www.cnn.com/2009/US/10/26/airliner.flyby/index.html
Hard to believe.
Time for them to look for a new career.
http://www.cnn.com/2009/US/10/26/airliner.flyby/index.html
Well the good news is they don't need to worry about learning the new system. :gomer: :saywhat:
-Kevin
Sean Malone
10-26-09, 09:46 PM
They very obviously weren't using the ILS (instrument landing system) beacon or they would have intercepted the beacon at the outer marker, turned onto the correct heading, and followed the glide slope down to the runway. One reason ILS was invented was to avoid this kind of mistake in a busy TCA (terminal control area). Not all the hazards from this kind of mistake are on the ground, mid-airs could result as well. Each runway has it's own ILS frequency.
Choosing a VFR (visual flight rules) landing at a major airport after a 10hr flight seems an odd/poor choice. More than likely they got behind on the work load in the cockpit and said screw the ILS or they missed intercepting the ILS beacon at the outer marker (wrong frequency entered?) and didn't want to go around and do it again due to the medical emergency.
oc
Hell, I don't even do VFR in anything above a Cessna 172 in a freaking SIM!!!!
Here's a pilot who makes the NW188 crew look smart:
8Nm8pNgqBAk
oddlycalm
10-27-09, 06:24 PM
Sounds like a career-ender to me.
:saywhat:
Welcome to your new career at Kalitta Air... :gomer:
FAA pulls tickets (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20091027/ap_on_bi_ge/us_northwest_flight_overflown)
Turns out that the #2 is Datachicane's neighbor.
oc
Interesting account of what happened on the NWA flight.
http://www.consumertraveler.com/today/what-happened-on-northwest-airlines-flight-188/
Many pieces to this puzzle
oddlycalm
12-03-09, 04:26 AM
Interesting account of what happened on the NWA flight.
http://www.consumertraveler.com/today/what-happened-on-northwest-airlines-flight-188/
Many pieces to this puzzle
This account certainly has the ring of truth to it. Punching in the wrong NAV or COM frequency is one of the top incident causes. For the F/O not to report the change of frequency to the pilot upon his return was a pretty big omission. Sounds like they will eventually get it sorted out. Didn't help that NWA has a history of bad actors.
oc
TravelGal
12-03-09, 11:58 PM
Can we all agree that deregulating the industry was a mistake?
Laptops & scheduling software? What you have here are a couple or wild and crazy guys. :p
Yes and yes.
Just got back to this thread. All these "explanations" make less sense than the Tiger stories. Cripes guys, do I have to blow my carefully crafted Polly Pureheart rep to tell you what I think they were doing? Two guys. Alone. Make up some bizarre, convoluted, cockamamie story to cover being incommunicato for a while. >>cough<<
oddlycalm
12-04-09, 04:40 AM
Two guys. Alone. Make up some bizarre, convoluted, cockamamie story to cover being incommunicato for a while. >>cough<<
:rofl: Aye, it was a manly story and told by men. :laugh:
oc
Yes.
So, let's see what the score is. Deregulate the airlines. Disaster. Deregulate the banks. Disaster.
Note to self: remember to keep reminding anyone who will listen that the "free enterprise as a religion" crowd exists to enable crooks to game the system. :shakehead
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