Sad what this place has become

[Badger]

I realize I haven't posted here nearly as much as at the old seventh gear, but when I do come here to see the "racing topics", I'm left wondering if there are actually any fans of racing left on this site. And when I say fans, I mean of current series, not fans of memories of the good old days which really weren't half as good as the memories. (The CANAM was great racing? Really, watching a singe 917/30 blast off in the distance was awe inspiring?) I get it that CART was better than the current IRL, but at the same time, it's what we are left with. I like it better than NASCAR and ALMS, but not as much as F1. I guess I don't understand the constant need by so many here to continually belittle almost every form of racing that is currently left. I would like to see this place turn around and actually discuss racing instead of how much Foyt, NASCRAP, Bernie sucks.

Just my humble opinion.

[Methanolandbrats]

It's really easy to buy forum software and set up a website that will attract hordes of like-minded fans.

[Sean Malone]

There's actually a LOT of racing in this country and I'll do my best to belittle any series I feel deserves it. The IRL deserves it. Watch an F1 race immediately before or after an IRL race and you will probably never watch the IRL again, except for comic value.

I'm just sad we don't have more of the ol gang around to dump on the mediocrity.

[KLang]

The banner at the top of the page says 'forums for the champcar enthusiast'. The earl offers nothing to this Champcar fan. Never will.

I don't really watch any racing anymore. :( I do enjoy the community forum. That is why I am still here.

[devilmaster]

I guess I don't understand the constant need by so many here to continually belittle almost every form of racing that is currently left.

I don't see any major racing that currently holds my interest.


I would like to see this place turn around and actually discuss racing instead of how much Foyt, NASCRAP, Bernie sucks.

I'd like to see them all gone myself.

But to answer your comment Badg, I think this website and the people who still frequent it have evolved naturally, and with the simplicity of forum software, there are enough sites out there where one can feel comfortable and at home - so each person finds that website with like minded racefans.

Personally, I've moved on in my life. I no longer plan my weekends around racing, whether it be on the tube or in person. Do I still like it? - Yes, but I no longer have the time or inclination to see whats going on. If I hadn't come to OC this week, I wouldn't have known where F1 was running or that even the IRL or NASCAR had run at all this weekend.

In a nutshell, I'm completely indifferent about major motorsport today. And I suppose those who still frequent OC are. How did George Carlin put it - we're circling the drain and its just fun to sit back and watch.

I suppose a new series that uses the great tracks, and uses challenging cars without major restrictions while keeping costs down to allow for good drivers a chance to make a name for themselves will perhaps bring me back with interest....

What would that race series be? I don't know. But as an example, (just off the top of my head) perhaps a series based on a single seater version (or regular version) of Caterhams and Ariels, with bigger than normal engines and with series limited ground effects. They might not be the fastest cars in the world, but watching those cars 4-wheel-drift out of some of the most famous corners in the world would be worth it.

ymmv, though.

[cameraman]

I watched a very interesting F1 race today. I'll watch every broadcast minute of Le Mans and I rarely miss an ALMS race. There is no reason on earth for me to watch detuned Dallaras drive around ovals.

Racing is what it is, I watch what I watch. ymmv

[Brickman]

I would like to see this place turn around and actually discuss racing instead of how much Foyt, NASCRAP, Bernie sucks, & Brickman's spelling.

Just my humble opinion.

Fixed it for ya. ;)

IMHO It's a fine community, and the mood towards racing matches the products.

[dando]

Sorry, Badger, but AOW racing is dead to me. The IRL is a farce built on a failed premise. The only chance I'll ever care for it again is if they move to a decent chassis and engine combo in 2 years. However, by then I seriously doubt there will be anything left to care about.

-Kevin

[opinionated ow]

Let me explain it simply. There are now only two good races in Indiana...the Little 500 at Anderson and the Hut Hundred at Terre Haute.

[emjaya]

Times change, people move on. We make fun of things we despise, we discuss those that interest us and we ignore those things that don't.

[Elmo T]

I think this place has the right mix for me. Race politics aside, I think everyone here is a race fan of a varying degree. There are cynics, die-hards, haters, etc - though (sadly) apathy seems to rein strongest of late. :(

This was always, first and foremost, a forum for the Champcar enthusiast and I hope it stays that way. It was never a hater website - that role was filled elsewhere. But things that suck are duly noted: [insert your list here]

For the most part, I think any hate here is focused and appropriate. I don't always agree with the hate - but I always understand the hate. Champcar took its lumps - same for F1, IRL, ALMS, etc, etc. Not much on the NHRA though - the roundy-round folks take the heat and these guys never turn ;) .

I think all reasonable opinions are tolerated here - even a few unreasonable ones.

I loved Champcar. I watch F1 and ALMS. I tolerate the IRL. I don't see the attraction of Grand-Am, but I watched a pretty good GA race this weekend. And that is all quite acceptable here.

No blind faith, no countdowns, no kool-aid. As with many who posted above - your mileage may vary.

[Don Quixote]

I think its a mistake to pass judgement on whether or not other people are "fans". JMHO. :)

[Don Quixote]

The only chance I'll ever care for it again is if they move to a decent chassis and engine combo in 2 years.
-Kevin You left out the part about getting rid of the idiot grandson. :tony:

[Napoleon]

I think its a mistake to pass judgement on whether or not other people are "fans". JMHO. :)

You clearly are not a fan ;)

For what it is worth the fact that this place draws the skeptical fan is what makes it interesting.

[G.]

I think that it will come. There will come a day when someone can post a discussion about an earl race, and not have it become a slam fest. Maybe even today. Give it a try, if you saw it.

For me, I'm kinda in a holding pattern until they come up with something interesting to watch. Then again, I was in a holding pattern waiting for ChampCar to actually fund the series into popularity. Didn't work so well.

If someone posts a topic on an IRL race, I'll read it, but probably won't have much to say about it. Good or bad.

When's the next race? :\



Then again, I watched some of the Grand Am race, so what the **** do I know? :gomer:

[stroker]

Gimme a grid full of F5000 cars in a real honest-to-God race instead of a Historic race. I'll get in the drive to watch and pay for a ticket. I suspect most everyone here would, too.

[Michaelhatesfans]

While you think it's sad what this place has become, I think you've found yourself amongst a group of people who are sad with what racing has become. At some point time and money just becomes too valuable to support something that you don't like.

[Insomniac]

If CART was your favorite series, there isn't all that much that resembles it. IMO, F1 is the closest, and there is racing talk there. The IRL may be close to the very end of CCWS, but it's no where close to CART. I have no vested interest in the IRL, unlike CCWS. It doesn't appeal to me. We're talking about racing, and given our primary reason for joining this forum, most series leave a lot to be desired.

[Badger]

I think its a mistake to pass judgement on whether or not other people are "fans". JMHO. :)

I'm not sure where I am "judging" anyone. Read the posts, the people here are clearly stating they are not fans like it is some badge of honor. No biggie, perhaps the mods like the tone of the site the way it is. The constant talk of the good old days isn't a whole lot different than listening to some gomer wax eloquently about the roadster era. Things change, time moves on, and perhaps this place is exactly what most here want it, a place where they can continually say how much they hate NASCRRAP, ALMS, FIRL, etc.


While you think it's sad what this place has become, I think you've found yourself amongst a group of people who are sad with what racing has become. At some point time and money just becomes too valuable to support something that you don't like.

So why come to a racing site?

[Gnam]

So why come to a racing site?
...to be Badger'd :rimshot: ;)

[Sean Malone]

I'm not sure where I am "judging" anyone. Read the posts, the people here are clearly stating they are not fans like it is some badge of honor. No biggie, perhaps the mods like the tone of the site the way it is. The constant talk of the good old days isn't a whole lot different than listening to some gomer wax eloquently about the roadster era. Things change, time moves on, and perhaps this place is exactly what most here want it, a place where they can continually say how much they hate NASCRRAP, ALMS, FIRL, etc.



So why come to a racing site?

Of course it's a badge of honor, our side lost!! Just because the IRL is all that's left doesn't mean we have to like it and just because this is a race forum, as others have pointed out, it's a forum for the Champ Car enthusiast. Not IRL lover.

I think many here, including myself, are paying attention, hoping maybe that someday smarter heads at IMS might develop a product worth really supporting. But the product they have now ain't it.

[mapguy]

I was about to post a deep response to this thread, but I still can't find my pants.

[Michaelhatesfans]

So why come to a racing site?

I bitch because I care.

[Don Quixote]

So why come to a racing site? So what is it that you want us to do differently? Seriously.

[Michaelhatesfans]

I was about to post a deep response to this thread, but I still can't find my pants.

You didn't leave them at work again, did you?

[STD]

So why come to a racing site?

Why is it that you care?

[Methanolandbrats]

So why come to a racing site?

To learn about Swine Flu, smoking meat, fixing my computer, etc.. from like minded race fans who know that nearly all racing now sucks compared to a 15
years ago.

[dando]

To learn about Swine Flu, smoking meat, fixing my computer, etc.. from like minded race fans who know that nearly all racing now sucks compared to a 15
years ago.

You forgot about bacon. :gomer:

-Kevin

[opinionated ow]

You forgot about bacon. :gomer:

-Kevin

And stool charts :rofl:

[Methanolandbrats]

And stool charts :rofl:Quit posting that thing, this morning I was eating an omlett, logged on and there it was again.........bad combination :yuck:

[Brickman]

I'm not sure where I am "judging" anyone. Read the posts, the people here are clearly stating they are not fans like it is some badge of honor. No biggie, perhaps the mods like the tone of the site the way it is. The constant talk of the good old days isn't a whole lot different than listening to some gomer wax eloquently about the roadster era. Things change, time moves on, and perhaps this place is exactly what most here want it, a place where they can continually say how much they hate NASCRRAP, ALMS, FIRL, etc.



So why come to a racing site?

IMHO... It's a community first, racing site second.

But I don't think there is anything wrong with longing for a good solid racing discussion.

[Michaelhatesfans]

You forgot about bacon. :gomer:

-Kevin

And Airbus.

[RaceGrrl]

I'm not sure where I am "judging" anyone. Read the posts, the people here are clearly stating they are not fans like it is some badge of honor. No biggie, perhaps the mods like the tone of the site the way it is. The constant talk of the good old days isn't a whole lot different than listening to some gomer wax eloquently about the roadster era. Things change, time moves on, and perhaps this place is exactly what most here want it, a place where they can continually say how much they hate NASCRRAP, ALMS, FIRL, etc.



So why come to a racing site?

Good question. Why DO you come here? You titled this thread "Sad what this place has become." I think it's sad that you feel entitled to bitch about a site you don't pay for.

Most of the people still posting here remember when racing was real and something worth watching. This site was never about other forms of racing- those discussions were incidental to the Champ Car forum. The death of Champ Car has pushed more discussion of other racing. The fact that Champ Car is gone doesn't mean that we're going to automatically shift our interest and loyalty to other forms of racing simply because they exist.

I expect most of the people who still hang out here stay because of the camaraderie and our shared history and enthusiasm for Champ Car. It has little to do with racing these days.

If you don't find anything of value at Offcamber, feel free to start your own site.

[Indy]

Among those who ever cared about AOW, loving CART and hating the IRL are, in essence, prerequisites which indicate intelligence.

Like I am going to take HDTV advice from an IRL fan?

[Wheel-Nut]

And Airbus.


and indy rock.

[emjaya]

and indy rock.

And colon cleansing. :yuck: :D

[FCYTravis]

I just finished rewatching the 1991 CART season, and will be starting the 1992 season tonight. Then it's back to 1990, because that entire year will probably have been uploaded to the fishy site by then.

I choose to remember and treasure the greatest era in American open-wheel motorsports, not waste time with the shell that remains.

Damn right I'm a fan - a CART fan. Now if you'll excuse me, it's time to hear Paul Page bark out... E-S-P-N, the world's leader in motorsports coverage presents... Speedworld.

[nrc]

This place is what it is - a place for champ car fans. CART embodied an attitude towards motorsport that doesn't have a current equivalent and may never again. Even the last years of Champ car were a pale reflection of it and I think everyone here recognized that.

I'm not sure what that means for this forum. We're definitely on the wane. Traffic is down as one would expect. I'm not content for the forum to just peter off and die, but I'm also not going to try to redefine the basic idea of the site with no real inspiration.

Champ car fans have always had strong ideas about what racing should be and they've never been coy about expressing dissatisfaction even when CART was at its peak. Expecting that they're going to be non-critical when racing in general is at such a low point right now is just not realistic.

So welcome to the epilogue to the greatest era of American open wheel racing. We hope all our kindred spirits will continue to visit and contribute and maybe somewhere along the line we'll find new direction.

[G.]

Politics.

Give that a try.

:gomer:

[Easy]

And colon cleansing. :yuck: :D

And honoring the Face of Champ Car. :D

[Sean Malone]

This place is what it is - a place for champ car fans. CART embodied an attitude towards motorsport that doesn't have a current equivalent and may never again. Even the last years of Champ car were a pale reflection of it and I think everyone here recognized that.

I'm not sure what that means for this forum. We're definitely on the wane. Traffic is down as one would expect. I'm not content for the forum to just peter off and die, but I'm also not going to try to redefine the basic idea of the site with no real inspiration.

Champ car fans have always had strong ideas about what racing should be and they've never been coy about expressing dissatisfaction even when CART was at its peak. Expecting that they're going to be non-critical when racing in general is at such a low point right now is just not realistic.

So welcome to the epilogue to the greatest era of American open wheel racing. We hope all our kindred spirits will continue to visit and contribute and maybe somewhere along the line we'll find new direction.

As a daily visitor from since I first joined, I recently noticed a great decrease in activity. Sometimes a whole day without any more than 2 or 3 posts. But within the last few weeks I've noticed an increase in activity and posts. I know Richard isn't much of an F1 fan (if at all) and of course the IRL is abhorrent, but I believe the 'atmosphere' of a forum is not only derived from the collective contributions of the members, but also from the owner (s). Since AOW is in limbo, and I'm assuming the owners interests are in limbo that contributes to the perceived atmosphere here. We need to work on getting Richard and Missy into F1!!

On a personal note, I'm actually watching more IndyCar racing than I have since I took my parents and my wife and daughter to the St Pete race a month ago. We've always watched the 500 as a family but now mom and dad are watching each race. I'm trying my best to inform them of all the things I hate about the IRL without totally ruining their interest in the sport because the optimist in me is still hanging on that it will get better with a new car and multiple engines suppliers.

[Gnam]

...the optimist in me is still hanging on that it will get better...
Exhibit A

http://home.earthlink.net/~terepka7eads/_uimages/ZZ0001.JPG

[Methanolandbrats]

Nice airport circuit.........perhaps they could race at Martinsville :gomer:

[Michaelhatesfans]

Exhibit A


In the words of Bill The Cat, I say, "Ack! Thbbft!"

[Michaelhatesfans]

...the optimist in me is still hanging on that it will get better...

Part of me wants to break it to you gently, the other part just wants to rip that Band-Aid right off of you...:laugh:

[Cam]

Politics.

Give that a try.

:gomer:

:rofl: Keyboard insurance! :D

[eiregosod]

I realize I haven't posted here nearly as much as at the old seventh gear, but when I do come here to see the "racing topics", I'm left wondering if there are actually any fans of racing left on this site. And when I say fans, I mean of current series, not fans of memories of the good old days which really weren't half as good as the memories. (The CANAM was great racing? Really, watching a singe 917/30 blast off in the distance was awe inspiring?) I get it that CART was better than the current IRL, but at the same time, it's what we are left with. I like it better than NASCAR and ALMS, but not as much as F1. I guess I don't understand the constant need by so many here to continually belittle almost every form of racing that is currently left. I would like to see this place turn around and actually discuss racing instead of how much Foyt, NASCRAP, Bernie sucks.

Just my humble opinion.


that's what happens when a track owner takes the worst ideas out of NASCAR and out of CART and fuses them together :tony:

Racing was in a lose-lose situation, and guess what it lost.

Last time I checked, the IRL is still there for you.

[Insomniac]

Exhibit A

http://home.earthlink.net/~terepka7eads/_uimages/ZZ0001.JPG

That was my favorite race. If they actually did that, they most certainly aren't trying to appeal to me.

[Sean Malone]

That was my favorite race. If they actually did that, they most certainly aren't trying to appeal to me.

That was a proposal at the end of the CART era. I went to many Cleveland races and miss it a lot (but I miss all of the CART races). I was at the race were the entire stands boo'd the mayor and the promotor (forgot his name) when they took the stage at the driver announcements. It was widley reported they were negotiating with the IRL to bring that ridiculous oval config and kick CART out.

[Napoleon]

I was at the race were the entire stands boo'd . . . . the promotor (forgot his name) when they took the stage at the driver announcements.

Bud Stanner is who you are thinking of. I was introduced to him a few years after that and was so tempted to ask him about it.

[Sean Malone]

Bud Stanner is who you are thinking of. I was introduced to him a few years after that and was so tempted to ask him about it.

that's the name.

[swift]

That was a proposal at the end of the CART era. I went to many Cleveland races and miss it a lot (but I miss all of the CART races). I was at the race were the entire stands boo'd the mayor and the promotor (forgot his name) when they took the stage at the driver announcements. It was widley reported they were negotiating with the IRL to bring that ridiculous oval config and kick CART out.


its been re-proposed! :gomer:

SpeedTV article (http://auto-racing.speedtv.com/article/miller-naptime-in-the-heartland//P2/)

[Sean Malone]

its been re-proposed! :gomer:

SpeedTV article (http://auto-racing.speedtv.com/article/miller-naptime-in-the-heartland//P2/)

double gomer. :gomer::gomer:

EGADS!

[Anteater]

I get it that CART was better than the current IRL, but at the same time, it's what we are left with.
The "leftovers" aren't good enough for me. :thumdown:No reason for me to watch or take an interest.

That oval configuration for Cleveland is beyond belief! :shakehead

[dando]

its been re-proposed! :gomer:

SpeedTV article (http://auto-racing.speedtv.com/article/miller-naptime-in-the-heartland//P2/)

Holy craptasticness, Batman. :shakehead

-Kevin

[TKGAngel]

Now I'm not a motorsport professional or anything, but wouldn't TPTB at Burke have to give their blessing to design an oval that cuts through the grass at the airport?

And why would you try to "fix" something that isn't broken?

Don't answer that. :gomer:

[dando]

Now I'm not a motorsport professional or anything, but wouldn't TPTB at Burke have to give their blessing to design an oval that cuts through the grass at the airport?

And why would you try to "fix" something that isn't broken?

Don't answer that. :tony:

Fixed your posty thingy. :gomer:

-Kevin

[TravelGal]

It's definitely the camraderie of the group that makes me check in here first whenever I have any "surfing" time. I sometimes come asking questions in desperation. And I always get the answers I need. I sometimes read for the sheer pleasure of learning. Who knows? I may someday need to know how to clean out rain gutters or the intricacies of bacon smoking. I've found a couple of very good TV shows.

I'm sometimes disappointed that there isn't more racing news. That's sort of a joke because I'm hoping YOU guys will post so I don't have to defile my eyeballs by looking at any site related solely to Indy....

I realized this year that I still do care because I cannot sleep the night after an IRL race because it is just SO depressing to be reminded of what we are no longer have.

The one thing I would change is the red flag on the Champ Car forum. Champ Car/CART may be dead but we are its fans still. There are still things to say because we are still fans. Is every comment about our beloved series and its history relegated to "Other" or the nebulous "Racing History." How sad that it doesn't even have its own name any longer.

The fact is Badger, what you right is true to the extent that the we are not so lively because what brought us together originally was the love of the sport and it's in the hopper. The good news is that we've found something deeper to keep us here.

[cart7]

I don't come around nearly as much as I used to. The races I watch are usually by accident, channel surfing on the weekends and I stumble on one. I managed to watch the LB race. I had no idea who was driving what and that series as a whole seemed to kind of stink the streets of LB up. Occasionally I check in on the forums to see what's up. I guess it does seem odd that a site about a now defunct racing series is still online but then again, I still have a CART sticker in the back window of my truck.

The community forum is where the action is. Between chili recipe's, W00t off's and the latest installment in spicoli's bowel contents, it's enough to keep the old fans here and coming back. Albeit just not as often.

[Sean Malone]

I don't come around nearly as much as I used to. The races I watch are usually by accident, channel surfing on the weekends and I stumble on one. I managed to watch the LB race. I had no idea who was driving what and that series as a whole seemed to kind of stink the streets of LB up. Occasionally I check in on the forums to see what's up. I guess it does seem odd that a site about a now defunct racing series is still online but then again, I still have a CART sticker in the back window of my truck.

The community forum is where the action is. Between chili recipe's, W00t off's and the latest installment in spicoli's bowel contents, it's enough to keep the old fans here and coming back. Albeit just not as often.

spicoli's MIA.

[cameraman]

He's sparring with Defender and Rosco over at Smackforum

[Michaelhatesfans]

He's sparring with Defender and Rosco over at Smackforum


(shudders) I'll take your word for it.

[nrc]

The one thing I would change is the red flag on the Champ Car forum. Champ Car/CART may be dead but we are its fans still. There are still things to say because we are still fans. Is every comment about our beloved series and its history relegated to "Other" or the nebulous "Racing History." How sad that it doesn't even have its own name any longer.


We'll keep it in mind. Part of the reason for closing the forum was so that we didn't have to deal with keeping the IRL discussions out of the Champ car forum. At some point it might be possible to re-open it but we would likely leave it in the history section.

[Gnam]

...because this is one of the few places where this is funny:

http://multimedia.foxsports.com/m/video/22219331/wind-tunnel-nascar-vs-open-wheel.htm

:)

[JohnHKart]

We'll keep it in mind. Part of the reason for closing the forum was so that we didn't have to deal with keeping the IRL discussions out of the Champ car forum. At some point it might be possible to re-open it but we would likely leave it in the history section.


Well what really killed me is you guys killed the Champ Car forum the day of the last race. I don't get on the internet every five minutes every day, so I didn't even get a chance to post about Long Beach. Just didn't understand it. I went to the race, and I don't think I even had a chance to drive home (30 mins away) and the forum was already killed. I shoulda complained here then.

[dando]

Well what really killed me is you guys killed the Champ Car forum the day of the last race. I don't get on the internet every five minutes every day, so I didn't even get a chance to post about Long Beach. Just didn't understand it. I went to the race, and I don't think I even had a chance to drive home (30 mins away) and the forum was already killed. I shoulda complained here then.

Yeah, and I got blamed for closing it. :gomer: I certainly didn't want to be the last one to post there. :o I was thinking some sort of Say goodnight, Gracie post and a tip of the hat to 'bird, 4Runner, etc. But that's just me. :(

-Kevin

[G.]

Isn't that what the historics forum is for??

As soon as the checkered flew at LB, ChampCar was history.

[Insomniac]

its been re-proposed! :gomer:

SpeedTV article (http://auto-racing.speedtv.com/article/miller-naptime-in-the-heartland//P2/)

If that happens, that's it. I swear I'll....I'll...stop reading the Futility threads!

[oddlycalm]

Just like nearly everything else worthwhile in life the people are the reason to come here Badger.

If watching the 917/30 blast off into the distance was so awful why is it that so many people still talk about it all these years later...? :D The competition was good some seasons in Can Am, others not so much, but unlimited racing whether airplanes, boats or cars tends to be that way. Unlimited means there is room for someone to figure out how to dominate until everyone else catches up. I never attended an unlimited air race or hydroplane race because of some tacit guarantee of close racing. Remember when the 500 was loosely limited? Damned interesting even if it wasn't always close.

BTW, I'm enjoying the hell out of watching Brawn and Redbull tweak the noses of the top teams in F1. The fact that it has to do with overall competency of execution seems to be missed by many with all the diffuser talk. We've been watching Brawn and Newey come up with winners for decades so it shouldn't be a surprise to anyone.

I've been following motorcycle racing since the early 60's and it hasn't been fully castrated as of yet, at least not outside of the US. In SBK first year American rider Ben Spies is winning races when he doesn't crash out and Haga is strong on the Ducati. The lead was decided three turns from the finish in race 1 of the last round. Real race drama for 25 laps as opposed to bump drafting and countless less laps under yellow....? Easy choice for me.

MotoGP is still delivering brilliant rides from Rossi every race whether he wins or not. Stoner is also brilliant on the Ducati and seeing a tiny Italian factory whoop some ass on the big Japanese outfits is an amusing dimension.

ALMS and touring cars still interest me as well, though the ALMS grid after Sebring is skinny. I'll certainly be watching Le Mans. Seeing the heavy iron run in sports car racing today isn't a lot like the unlimited Can Am sprint races but the cars are still fascinating to watch seriously powerful big budget cars pound around the track. The current diesels are not exception.

WoO is still tearing up the dirt and a track near you. If 750hp in a 1200lb. car can't get your attention... Ok, dirt ovals aren't for everyone but l like sprint cars and bikes on dirt. Always have, probably always will. Mile tracks are my favorite but I'll watch any of it.

I don't care about manufactured close racing or "motorsports entertainment." I don't hold back my opinions of the perpetrators.

oc

[opinionated ow]

OC....you bloody ripper. Bonzer post!