View Full Version : Diffuser Gate
I can't even pretend to know what F-1 is doing or thinking these days but am I wrong in guessing there is a gigantic problem about to blow up in Australia? Brawn, Williams and Toyota are a lot more competitive all of a sudden, aren't they? Well then, they MUST be cheating!:D There's likely to be official protests of those new (legal) aero tweaks, then court appeals followed by possible point deductions. How will anything that happens on the track compare to that kind of drama? Makes wringing more cash from the "poor" drivers seem tame by comparison. (a 500+% increase in Super License and PAYING more for points earned. Now there's a great cost-cutting move!)
eiregosod
03-23-09, 03:53 PM
I can't even pretend to know what F-1 is doing or thinking these days but am I wrong in guessing there is a gigantic problem about to blow up in Australia? Brawn, Williams and Toyota are a lot more competitive all of a sudden, aren't they? Well then, they MUST be cheating!:D There's likely to be official protests of those new (legal) aero tweaks, then court appeals followed by possible point deductions. How will anything that happens on the track compare to that kind of drama? Makes wringing more cash from the "poor" drivers seem tame by comparison. (a 500+% increase in Super License and PAYING more for points earned. Now there's a great cost-cutting move!)
a manufactured power play by the FIA/Bernie/FOA/CVC to keep FOTA busy.
Either way
if it is unintentional, then max and the FIA are totally incompetent, tell us something new. Edit, addendum: Max is proud of this 'diffusergate', if its uninentional, then max is proud of his own incompetence
if its fixed, then its a power play of the highest senility.
Well, there it is then. Marko at Red Bull says he WILL protest BrawnGP on Thurs. if their "illegal" diffuser passes inspection. Says 7 other teams agree the design IS outside the rule and is giving Brawn .5 per lap. Gentlemen, start your lawyers! (Autosport)
cameraman
03-24-09, 01:58 PM
Max needs to be killed (fired would work too but I'd prefer kill just the same) simple as that.
oddlycalm
03-24-09, 07:09 PM
Brawn, Williams and Toyota are a lot more competitive all of a sudden, aren't they?
That's what happens when you make comprehensive rules changes. :D Look for either Max to make up some new nonsense on the fly or for the others to mod their cars before too many races pass.
oc
oddlycalm
03-24-09, 07:17 PM
Max needs to be killed (fired would work too but I'd prefer kill just the same) simple as that.
Where is Javier Bardem when you need him...?
oc
http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/42947000/jpg/_42947171_bardem_203300.jpg
cameraman
03-24-09, 07:31 PM
Hiring a guy who is quite proud of the fact that he does not know how to drive would be quite fitting in this particular case.
Has anyone found information defining why or why not the diffusers are illegal?
oddlycalm
03-25-09, 01:56 PM
Has anyone found information defining why or why not the diffusers are illegal?
The cars are faster than the Ferrari and McLaren which means they are, by simple definition, illegal. :\
oc
Accipiter
03-25-09, 02:39 PM
Has anyone found information defining why or why not the diffusers are illegal?
Here, read this:
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/73083
TrueBrit
03-25-09, 09:26 PM
Here, read this:
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/73083
Now my brain hurts....
Methanolandbrats
03-25-09, 09:30 PM
How about this for rules:
1) minimum weight.
2) maximum displacment
3) minimum and maximum physical dimensions of car.
Then build whatever the **** you want and bring it to the grid.
Stewards give OK to the diffusers! So, who wins in Australia?:)
Accipiter
03-26-09, 10:03 AM
Whoever has the best lawyers in the court of appeals after Malaysia.
Two asterisk races to start off the season. Nice.
miatanut
03-26-09, 12:15 PM
Here, read this:
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/73083
Cool! Teams coming up with different solutions and not all being clones!
How about this for rules:
1) minimum weight.
2) maximum displacment
3) minimum and maximum physical dimensions of car.
Then build whatever the **** you want and bring it to the grid.
Screw minimum weight! If you want to run a 1.5 L turbo and save some weight, go for it! Just meet the safety requirements.
I think ACO's air restrictors are the best way to get some variety on the grid.
I am surprised the diffusers were allowed. Not necessarily because I thought they are outside of the rules, but because Ferrari doesn't have them. I should probably wait till after all appeals though.
That said, who else is checking into practice and qualifying, no matter how late at night?:thumbup:
Methanolandbrats
03-26-09, 01:20 PM
I am surprised the diffusers were allowed. Not necessarily because I thought they are outside of the rules, but because Ferrari doesn't have them. I should probably wait till after all appeals though.
That said, who else is checking into practice and qualifying, no matter how late at night?:thumbup: My DVR is going to let me know what happened tomorrow morning :gomer:
Impressive showing by the teams with the trick difffusers. I had to chuckle reading a quote from some Ferrari about the diffusers not meeting the spirit of the rules. :cry: Yeah, where was this spirit midpoint last season when the Ferrari powered Torro Rosso's suddenly started spanking the Renault engine Red Bulls and Ferrari had a couple of engines blow up. Was that hp increase within the spirit of the hp freeze?
Anyone else set the alarm so they could wake up and watch. :D
Robstar
03-27-09, 09:09 AM
I've been to the track today & I really don't think there's that much political BS going on... they're all coping with new aero & I think quali will be a whole different kettle of fish... McLaren look like they have nothing but I reckon they'll be all over it tomorrow as will Ferrari...
PS: racecars are cool :cool:
Methanolandbrats
03-27-09, 10:08 AM
There will be many, many safety car laps.
I think it's cool seeing the order shuffled a bit. I also bet that I am not alone. If F1 was smart they'd let it go to increase the interest a little bit.
The cars look horrible, almost unwatchable. :(
Diffuser cars take six of top seven times in opening practice.:gomer:
Why would Hamilton not even make an attempt in Q2?
opinionated ow
03-28-09, 06:42 AM
Why would Hamilton not even make an attempt in Q2?
Broken driveshaft I believe.
ilferrari
03-28-09, 07:16 AM
If the FIA rule in favor of Brawn et al, the other teams are screwed with the testing ban. They will probably bring out their new floor in Barcelona and run it for the first time there. I'm surprised the other teams didn't get the FIA to clarify the rules for them in January and react then.
The fact that the FIA left these loopholes in their regulations speaks badly about them.
opinionated ow
03-28-09, 07:27 AM
Toyota DQ'd:
http://www.grandprix.com/ns/ns21309.html
No worry, they seem to have "solved" their "extreme flexibility problem":rofl: Now I'm hearing Williams has protested Ferrari and Red Bull because of their aerodynamics.:cool: I say forget the race and just file protests and counterprotests and see who lands on the legal podium! "F-1 Circus," indeed! (guess Hamilton blew a gearbox?)
Methanolandbrats
03-28-09, 09:43 AM
Why would Hamilton not even make an attempt in Q2?
Temper tantrum. He can't be bothered to drive a s***** car.
BTW if tools like Woobens and Button can put the Brawn on the front row, it must be a hell of a car. Sure would be fun to see how quick it would be with good drivers. :D
OR...the drivers are all REALLY good and all they need is to get a "competitive" ride? Maybe Button would be Schumacher if he'd driven a red car.;)
Awww...Williams has withdrawn their protests "in the sport's interest." Wow, what nice guys. (I wonder what they were threatened with?:D) Sounds like Massa is saying the season's over unless there are some changes. Jenson Button, World Champ. Sounds awfully strange.
chop456
03-28-09, 12:30 PM
The fact that the FIA left these loopholes in their regulations speaks badly about them.
And the fact that the Ferraris and McLarens of the world overlooked them is even worse. Maybe they need to stick to cheating outright.
Awww...Williams has withdrawn their protests "in the sport's interest." Wow, what nice guys. (I wonder what they were threatened with?:D) Sounds like Massa is saying the season's over unless there are some changes. Jenson Button, World Champ. Sounds awfully strange.
Welcome to the midpacker brigade. Last year it was someone else.
extramundane
03-28-09, 02:35 PM
Awww...Williams has withdrawn their protests "in the sport's interest." Wow, what nice guys. (I wonder what they were threatened with?:D) Sounds like Massa is saying the season's over unless there are some changes. Jenson Button, World Champ. Sounds awfully strange.
Don't underestimate ButtonSpice's ability to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory.
cameraman
03-28-09, 03:32 PM
Temper tantrum. He can't be bothered to drive a s***** car.
Yeah it couldn't possibly have been a broken gearbox that will put him at the back of the grid. No, it was a temper tantrum and they just replaced the gearbox to save face.:rolleyes:
Insomniac
03-28-09, 04:46 PM
Yeah it couldn't possibly have been a broken gearbox that will put him at the back of the grid. No, it was a temper tantrum and they just replaced the gearbox to save face.:rolleyes:
While watching I figured they saw Heikki was 14th and decided to save tires.
Methanolandbrats
03-28-09, 05:14 PM
Yeah it couldn't possibly have been a broken gearbox that will put him at the back of the grid. No, it was a temper tantrum and they just replaced the gearbox to save face.:rolleyes::D Maybe Uncle Ron's Love Child gave it the Rusty Wallace treatment and "clutched the bitch" so he would'nt have to drive it. :gomer:
Not sure where this is from, but it shows the difference between the diffusers.
http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d146/djapk73/jnhbgvfscdfngh-22e.jpg
I think it's the wing thing near the inlet that is in question, not the rear. (?)
Insomniac
03-29-09, 02:52 PM
I think it's the wing thing near the inlet that is in question, not the rear. (?)
On TV, Steve Matchett kept circling the back below the rain light. Brawn had an opening, presumably for air to flow through and generate downforce, and the Ferrari was completely closed.
opinionated ow
03-29-09, 04:18 PM
I think it's the wing thing near the inlet that is in question, not the rear. (?)
I think what they're referring to is the extra chamber in the centre creating the "double deck" ettect.
Not sure where this is from, but it shows the difference between the diffusers.
http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d146/djapk73/jnhbgvfscdfngh-22e.jpg
I'd like to see where the air to "feed" the upper portion of the diffusers is coming from. Is it slotted from the bottom or drawing air from the sides?
Hard Driver
04-01-09, 12:41 PM
I'd like to see where the air to "feed" the upper portion of the diffusers is coming from. Is it slotted from the bottom or drawing air from the sides?
Read that autosport link and it gets into this. My understanding is that the rules say things like, if you are looking from the bottom of the car, the diffuser can't rise above 175mm.
So the diffuser cars found a loophole where the bodywork above the diffuser had some room around the rain light. So they could put a opening to feed air from the bottom in front of the main diffuser and feed the air into this stacked diffuser above the main diffuser. And if you look from the bottom, it does not break the letter of the law. The dimensions still fit within the regulations above the diffuser too.
Sheesh...Holes? Slots? Gaps? Guess it depends on what your definition of IS is!:D Ferrari saying a 15 year "protocol" has been violated by a new interpretation of an old rule. They all knew how to do it, they just didn't. Until now. Ferrari maintains suspension work can be seen through the "gaps"...and that ain't legal! We'll see. Autosport.
Renault says the thing is illegal and was TOLD it was illegal before the season started, so they didn't use the cheater diffuser they'd been working on BUT it can be ready to go for China. Cool. So, if it's illegal Brawn (& others) can lose all the points they have and if it's legal the rest are now free to "develop" their own? I vote for LEGAL, then see if Brawn protests when/if others start to catch up.:) Supposed to know by Wednesday?
Whatever is the dumbest, most aggravating thing is what the FIA will do.
miatanut
04-14-09, 11:17 PM
Renault says the thing is illegal and was TOLD it was illegal before the season started, so they didn't use the cheater diffuser they'd been working on BUT it can be ready to go for China. Cool. So, if it's illegal Brawn (& others) can lose all the points they have and if it's legal the rest are now free to "develop" their own? I vote for LEGAL, then see if Brawn protests when/if others start to catch up.:) Supposed to know by Wednesday?
Toyota and Williams say they checked theirs with FIA and were told they were legal, so maybe Renault didn't do it the same way.
opinionated ow
04-15-09, 08:29 AM
Statement from the FIA:
"The FIA International Court of Appeal has decided to deny the appeals submitted against decisions numbered 16 to 24 taken by the Panel of the Stewards on 26 March at the 2009 Grand Prix of Australia and counting towards the 2009 FIA Formula One World Championship.
"Based on the arguments heard and evidence before it, the Court has concluded that the Stewards were correct to find that the cars in question comply with the applicable regulations.
"Full reasons for this decision will be provided in due course."
Ferrari has indicated that it will be forced to 'fundamentally' change the design of its F60 challenger, following the FIA International Court of Appeal's decision to reject a protest by several teams over the diffusers used by Brawn GP, Toyota and Williams. (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/74479)
And this:
"Unfortunately this decision forces us to intervene on fundamental areas of the car's design in order to be able to compete on an equal footing with some of the teams from a point of view of the technical regulations, and that will take time and money," said Domenicali.
We are generally Ferrari fans in our house - but this sounds like it needs the Waaaambulance. :rolleyes:
rosawendel
04-15-09, 09:27 AM
Ferrari has indicated that it will be forced to 'fundamentally' change the design of its F60 challenger, following the FIA International Court of Appeal's decision to reject a protest by several teams over the diffusers used by Brawn GP, Toyota and Williams
because, of course, they haven't been pursuing a revised design at all up to now. I'm guessing that renault won't be the only team to arrive at shanghai with a new diffuser design.
Insomniac
04-15-09, 09:43 AM
I must've missed the memo that Ferrari doesn't spend money. :)
Renault inquiring and being denied is interesting though.
"Unfortunately this decision forces us to intervene on fundamental areas of the car's design in order to be able to compete on an equal footing with some of the teams from a point of view of the technical regulations, and that will take time and money," said Domenicali.
Wait, that needs some fixxering:
"Unfortunately, our sucking so hard forces us to intervene on fundamental areas of the car's design in order to be able to compete on an equal footing with some of the teams whose cars do not suck, and that will take time and money that we would not have to spend if we could rely on the FIA's usual corruption to overcome the degree to which we suck."
How hydropneumatic suspension. :laugh:
ilferrari
04-15-09, 02:24 PM
"It is not that Renault missed the boat, as Brawn have pointed out, it is because the FIA said it was illegal. It was at that point the diffuser was abandoned," said Ford.
"What angers us is the fact that we had approached [Charlie] Whiting for a clarification on a diffuser solution like the one in question and we were told it was illegal, therefore we did not pursue it any further though our design team had similar ideas," said Marko.
Apparently the Federation of Incompetent As$h0le$ had been telling some teams that it was illegal while it told others that it was legal.
cameraman
04-15-09, 03:53 PM
Apparently the Federation of Incompetent As$h0le$ had been telling some teams that it was illegal while it told others that it was legal.
Or the two designs were different. Some legal, some not.
JLMannin
04-15-09, 04:30 PM
Apparently the Federation of Incompetent As$h0le$ had been telling some teams that it was illegal while it told others that it was legal.
Or some teams were not stupid enough to ask for permission to take advantage of a loophole in the rules.
Hasn't the plan always been to just cheat 'til you get caught?
Insomniac
04-15-09, 05:25 PM
Or some teams were not stupid enough to ask for permission to take advantage of a loophole in the rules.
Not really.
The FIA knew of the three teams' design plans for the diffuser and raised no objection, president Max Mosley even backing the alternative idea.
oddlycalm
04-15-09, 06:07 PM
Hasn't the plan always been to just cheat 'til you get caught?
That's always been the tradition as far back as I can remember and the Euros set that bar pretty high. That was always one of the comments heard after someone from the US went over to work or drive. When they came back they would talk about rule bending taken to an the level of an art form. :D Same goes for nefarious means of discovering the competition's designs.
Not exactly sure when things changed at the FIA but I am sure it changed with a vengeance. Leveling $100 million fine against any team for something that didn't involved physical harm or danger to people was the end of any pretense of common sense or rational perspective. Eliminating them from the constructors championship would have been plenty.
Same thing with lawyers as race stewards. :shakehead :thumdown: It's a race not a garden party, a minor point the stuffed suits seem to have missed. People that watch want to see a race, not a series of protracted rulings by the stewards. Champcar learned this same lesson but not until well after it was too late.
oc
Michaelhatesfans
04-15-09, 07:25 PM
Colin Chapman used to say that the season started the day that you received the rule book. Probably best he didn't make it long enough to see this version of F1.
Let's cut to the chase. How does the influence my yahoo picks this week? :D
Winston Wolfe
04-16-09, 12:09 AM
Let's cut to the chase. How does the influence my yahoo picks this week? :D
who cares?
button
woobens
brawn
Max pts - we all tie again this week !:thumbup:
opinionated ow
04-16-09, 01:28 AM
who cares?
button
woobens
brawn
Max pts - we all tie again this week !:thumbup:
I've got those two and Fred...3 most consistent of them all so far...
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