F5000 hp figure?

[stroker]

Anyone here have an idea what the top F5000 teams in the mid-70's were getting in terms of hp? Anyone know if Franz Weis is still in operation?

[Michaelhatesfans]

In the mid-70's they were getting around 550hp out of a Chevy 305 (remember cubic inches?). I read recently that they would get within a few tenths of the F1 cars times at Mosport and the Glen. That series was a serious missed opportunity.

[pchall]

1971 Questor Grand Prix F1 and FA/F5000 on the 3.6 mile road course at the Ontario oval. FA entries marked with an asterisk. The FA/F5000 car was at least a couple of hundred pounds heavier than the contemporary F1 car. The only time front line GP cars raced against FA/F5000 the grid and results were heavily in favor of the F1 cars

Starting Grid

Stewart
Tyrrell, 1'41.257

Amon
Matra, 1'41.275

Ickx
Ferrari, 1'41.531

Hulme
McLaren, 1'42.458

Rodriguez
BRM, 1'42.473

Hill
Brabham,1'42.763

Donohue*
Lola, 1'43.211

Siffert
BRM, 1'42.350

Fittipaldi
Lotus, 1'43.358

Follmer*
Lotus, 1'43.474

Wisell
Lotus, 1'43.535

Andretti
Ferrari, 1'43.542

Pescarolo
March, 1'43.709

Schenken
Brabham, 1' 43.772

Posey*
Surtees, 1'44.128

Cannon*
March, 1'44.231

Peterson
March, 1'44.360

Ganley
BRM, 1'44.739

Bell
March, 1'44.977

Gethin
McLaren, 1'45.310

Sell*
Lola, 1'45.397

Grable*
Lola, 1'45.402

Bondurant*
Lola, 1'45.528

Revson*
Surtees, 1'45.668

Adamowicz*
Lola, 1' 47.831

Unser A*
Lola, 1'48.172

Unser B*
Lola, 1'48.512

Hutchinson*
ASD American, 1'50.954

Savage*
Eagle, 1'51.509

Foyt*
McLaren, 1'52.229

Reserves:

Hobbs*
McLaren, 1'45.331

Lovely
Lotus, 1'47.269

Byers*
Lola , 1'54.468

* = Formula A entrant.

FA was bigger and cruder than F1, but they put on a really good show. We used to dream of a 6.0L (366 ci) version that would be faster than F1.

[miatanut]

I never got to see them back then, but when I see them at vintage events they are definitely the wickedest sounding cars of the weekend.

[NismoZ]

Mario has been quick to point out in '74 & '75 his VPJ Lola T-332 was faster than his F-1 Parnelli-Cosworth in those same years. (of course the F-1 car was kind of a bust but he did qualify well several times: 3rd at Watkins Glen in '74, and in '75 6th at Kyalami, 4th in Spain, and 5th at Watkins Glen.) The mph/$$ ratio was so far in favor of F-5000 it was ridiculous. F-1 wasn't the target, though. Indy was. The road racing guys like Gurney and Penske caused sort of a "split" didn't they?:D USAC squirmed, added more road races, circle trackers only were pretty much nowhere, then awhile later a White Paper was drawn up and the seeds of yet another split were planted, waaay before '94!

[jcollins28]

1971 Questor Grand Prix F1 and FA/F5000 on the 3.6 mile road course at the Ontario oval. FA entries marked with an asterisk. The FA/F5000 car was at least a couple of hundred pounds heavier than the contemporary F1 car. The only time front line GP cars raced against FA/F5000 the grid and results were heavily in favor of the F1 cars

Starting Grid

Stewart
Tyrrell, 1'41.257

Amon
Matra, 1'41.275

Ickx
Ferrari, 1'41.531

Hulme
McLaren, 1'42.458

Rodriguez
BRM, 1'42.473

Hill
Brabham,1'42.763

Donohue*
Lola, 1'43.211

Siffert
BRM, 1'42.350

Fittipaldi
Lotus, 1'43.358

Follmer*
Lotus, 1'43.474

Wisell
Lotus, 1'43.535

Andretti
Ferrari, 1'43.542

Pescarolo
March, 1'43.709

Schenken
Brabham, 1' 43.772

Posey*
Surtees, 1'44.128

Cannon*
March, 1'44.231

Peterson
March, 1'44.360

Ganley
BRM, 1'44.739

Bell
March, 1'44.977

Gethin
McLaren, 1'45.310

Sell*
Lola, 1'45.397

Grable*
Lola, 1'45.402

Bondurant*
Lola, 1'45.528

Revson*
Surtees, 1'45.668

Adamowicz*
Lola, 1' 47.831

Unser A*
Lola, 1'48.172

Unser B*
Lola, 1'48.512

Hutchinson*
ASD American, 1'50.954

Savage*
Eagle, 1'51.509

Foyt*
McLaren, 1'52.229

Reserves:

Hobbs*
McLaren, 1'45.331

Lovely
Lotus, 1'47.269

Byers*
Lola , 1'54.468

* = Formula A entrant.

FA was bigger and cruder than F1, but they put on a really good show. We used to dream of a 6.0L (366 ci) version that would be faster than F1.

I have the program with several autographs from this race.

[mueber]

For years I've pleaded for the resurrection of this formula to no avail. I still think you could sell it to Detroit but, with open wheel so weak, only after the IRL is dead.

Still...Someone could stuff a small block Ford in an old Lola Champ Car, or the Panoz for that matter, and run it up and down on Main Street in Dearborn. Someone might like the idea.

[pchall]

Single-seaters with real "stock block" engines based on the blocks and heads of the currently available DOHC Detroit Aluminum (and even some Euro and Asian lumps) would be worth watching. I'd even accept an equivalence formula, say 4.5L NA/2.5L turbocharged with air resistrictors to keep the engines in the 750-850 range.


For years I've pleaded for the resurrection of this formula to no avail. I still think you could sell it to Detroit but, with open wheel so weak, only after the IRL is dead.

Still...Someone could stuff a small block Ford in an old Lola Champ Car, or the Panoz for that matter, and run it up and down on Main Street in Dearborn. Someone might like the idea.

[miatanut]

An Atlantic with about 150 more HP and some downforce taken away would be a tail-happy beast like the F5000. Wouldn't have the wicked sound, but the racing would be a blast.

[NismoZ]

The new Swift .017 in a new and improved F-Nippon must be your dream car, then. Saw a video and pics and it looked and sounded GREAT. I think it was on the Rennsport.com forum posted by a Swift guy in Japan helping with setups but haven't been able to find it again. I think it was a link from someplace else. Honda and Toyota NA engines of ICS:rolleyes:size and style but less power. Be nice if someone could find the pics and /or vid to share. (?)

[NismoZ]

Oh, just punch it up on Youtube!:) They are calling it the Formula Nippon FN09 now. Official test footage but does 600hp and a lot of downforce ruin it for you? They sure don't SOUND like 3.4 NA Indy Cars and look a whole HELL of a lot better! Should be faster than A1GP don't you think?

[meadors]

Single-seaters with real "stock block" engines based on the blocks and heads of the currently available DOHC Detroit Aluminum (and even some Euro and Asian lumps) would be worth watching. I'd even accept an equivalence formula, say 4.5L NA/2.5L turbocharged with air resistrictors to keep the engines in the 750-850 range.

Nice sentiment, but all I keep getting visions of are Aurora and Nisson V-8s circa 1997.

[mueber]

It's a pipe-dream so it doesn't matter, but I'd argue that in order to have a snowball's chance of success the formula would have to be limited to American engine manufacturers.

[pchall]

Nice sentiment, but all I keep getting visions of are Aurora and Nisson V-8s circa 1997.

Well, at least the first Nissan IRL V-8 met the nature of my sentiment. It was based on the block and heads that were used in their IMSA GTO cars. Unfortunately, the first Nissan was blown away by the purpose built Olds "Aurora", which bore about as much resemblance to the Northstar 4.6L family of GM V8s as a Cosworth-Ford XB does to a Merkur XR4ti lump.

[nissan gtp]

It's a pipe-dream so it doesn't matter, but I'd argue that in order to have a snowball's chance of success the formula would have to be limited to American engine manufacturers.

why ? and who are "American engine manufacturers" ?

[mueber]

Well I don’t think it has a chance beyond niche status at any time, but there are two fundamental truths about auto racing in America.

1. In an open competition environment, American manufacturers don’t do very well, and

2. American fans won’t support a series they cannot directly relate to.

It’s a given that the chassis, the tires, the gearboxes, the crewmen and the driver are going to be mostly foreign. Americans aren’t going to watch that.

You and I may like the ALMS, but they have to buy airtime on TV. The IRL is on its deathbed, and CART? What happened to CART anyway?

Sticking a Chevy, Ford or Chrysler block in the engine bay will give the fans something to relate to, and give Detroit something to support. Whereas, sticking a Toyota block in the back will ensure that Chevy, Ford and Chrysler can’t and won’t participate, and Americans won’t care.

[oddlycalm]

There has always been an audience for formula car roadracing in the US, and that still exists. Not huge numbers, but ALMS numbers certainly. F5000 was run as an SCCA professional class.

The EARL sleds are awful on a street or road course due to their sluggish transition to turn-in and braking and the culture is too dumbed down for the demographics that follow roadracing. I don't really see it evera viable outlet for the folks that followed CART and IMSA.

The Swift .17 is a good looking car but what would be better is a low downforce car with lots of mechanical grip. Wide tires for lots of drag but quick turns and braking. Put 650hp into a 1350lb. car with low downforce and you would have a big fun factor. :cool:

My take would be to look ahead and use the lightest/smallest lump available but I realy don't care what it is. The 5L V8 made perfect sense in 1968 but I'm thinking something else would be better going forward.

oc

[opinionated ow]

An Atlantic with about 150 more HP and some downforce taken away would be a tail-happy beast like the F5000. Wouldn't have the wicked sound, but the racing would be a blast.

This is your absolute dream isn't it? I don't think it is the solution to anything. You still have a spec chassis with all the overtaking limits they provide.

[pchall]

This is your absolute dream isn't it? I don't think it is the solution to anything. You still have a spec chassis with all the overtaking limits they provide.


Then open up the chassis spec and aerodynamics to development by the teams. Open the engine spec to big bore NA and small bore turbo.

There was a time when all the fast Atlantic cars were Ralt RT4s, but all the RT4s were not necessarily equal.

http://www.warm.org.au/images/WARM-assos/RPoynton/R-Poynton-RALT.jpg

[miatanut]

The new Swift .017 in a new and improved F-Nippon must be your dream car, then. Saw a video and pics and it looked and sounded GREAT. I think it was on the Rennsport.com forum posted by a Swift guy in Japan helping with setups but haven't been able to find it again. I think it was a link from someplace else. Honda and Toyota NA engines of ICS:rolleyes:size and style but less power. Be nice if someone could find the pics and /or vid to share. (?)


This is your absolute dream isn't it? I don't think it is the solution to anything. You still have a spec chassis with all the overtaking limits they provide.

Why does everybody think they know my dream car? I don't think I've posted much about it here, but I have at MS forum. My dream car would have NO rear wing, and the minimum front wing needed to maintain aero balance and tune the car. It would be built to the "No rules" rules package Indy has proposed. My particular tweak on it would be to somehow (major challenge) regulate maximum downforce, require safety standards/crash tests, no unobtainium, and "sporting rules" which make refueling a slow process, to encourage energy efficiency and beyond that, 'go to it boys!'. No minimum weight. I'd love to see nimble, light weight 1.5L turbos racing against (heavy) 4.0 L atmos. One passes in the turns and the other passes on the straights. Racing like it used to be!

Back to reality now.

Through the efforts of everyone's favorite track owner, the sport has sunk to lows most of us would never have imagined a few years back. Teams need to be able to race on a shoestring compared to the good old days. Taking the Swift, adding 150 HP, and taking away some downforce (I would still be for eliminating rear wings) would produce a real driver's car on a budget. Ride buyers need not apply. The cars would be tail-happy on dry pavement and even more so on the wet.

I don't know about others, but for me, F1 has been completely transformed this year by the elimination of traction control. F Atlantic could do something similar but cheaper, and provide those of us who don't care to have our favorite series in the shadow of a certain track in Indianner with a series with a proper top-level pedigree, and bring the passion back.

[miatanut]

There has always been an audience for formula car roadracing in the US, and that still exists. Not huge numbers, but ALMS numbers certainly. F5000 was run as an SCCA professional class.

The EARL sleds are awful on a street or road course due to their sluggish transition to turn-in and braking and the culture is too dumbed down for the demographics that follow roadracing. I don't really see it evera viable outlet for the folks that followed CART and IMSA.

The Swift .17 is a good looking car but what would be better is a low downforce car with lots of mechanical grip. Wide tires for lots of drag but quick turns and braking. Put 650hp into a 1350lb. car with low downforce and you would have a big fun factor. :cool:

My take would be to look ahead and use the lightest/smallest lump available but I realy don't care what it is. The 5L V8 made perfect sense in 1968 but I'm thinking something else would be better going forward.

oc

I agree with most everything you say except one item. I don't think you need 650 HP IF you take away a lot of downforce. The Cosworth DFV gave us about 20 years of great racing between 400 and 500 HP. It was when the engineers started getting good at developing loads of aero downforce that the resulting drag required more power to push it. If you mostly or completely eliminate wings, but keep tunnels, because tunnels have a more efficient l/d, you can still have a reasonable amount of downforce but a lot less drag, and at the same time, a lot less turbulent air for the following car to deal with.

I think the lightest/smallest lump approach is totally the way to go.

[Sean Malone]

Wasn't it the American IndyCar Series or something like that, that ran push rod 350's in hand me down Reynard's? It produced champions like Buddy Lazier. :gomer:

DOHC stock block lumps in a formula car? Ah good ol' Oldsmobubble in the IRL.:D

I'm with OC.

[Michaelhatesfans]

Wasn't it the American IndyCar Series or something like that, that ran push rod 350's in hand me down Reynard's? It produced champions like Buddy Lazier. :gomer:



Lolas and Marchs, but yeah.

[Michaelhatesfans]

DOHC stock block lumps in a formula car? Ah good ol' Oldsmobubble in the IRL.:D


Careful, now. An Olds based block did score a World Championship...:cool:

http://gpl.krej.cz/foto/1967%20Belgian%20GP%20-%20D.Hulme%20(Brabham-Repco%20V8).jpg

[miatanut]

Careful, now. An Olds based block did score a World Championship...:cool:

http://gpl.krej.cz/foto/1967%20Belgian%20GP%20-%20D.Hulme%20(Brabham-Repco%20V8).jpg

Back when the cars were beautiful to look at.

[Sean Malone]

Lolas and Marchs, but yeah.


AIS competitors have their choice of engines .... either

NATURALLY-ASPIRATED or TURBOCHARED .... V-6 or V-8. The

American-made NATURALLY-ASPIRATED CHEVROLET and TURBOCHARGED

FORT-COSWORTH are the most popular; but Buick, Oldsmobile,

Pontiac, Ilmor and Judd engines are also utilized. AIS is

governed by the SAME ENGINE RULES AS THE INDIANAPOLIS 500

and similar naturally-aspired engine rules as NASCAR Winston

Cup, with the maximum engine displacement of 362 cubic

inches. Most cars in the series are constructed by MARCH, LOLA, and

PENSKE. There are also EAGLES constructed in America by Dan

Gurney. AIS rules allow ANY YEAR OF CHASSIS, UP TO AND

INCLUDING 1995.

http://www.motorsport.com/news/article.asp?ID=2350&FS=OPENWHEEL

[Michaelhatesfans]

Back when the cars were beautiful to look at.

I thought you'd like that - no wing!:cool:

[miatanut]

I thought you'd like that - no wing!:cool:
Somebody with a much better idea of my dream car!

1967 was the first year I knew about F1 and I've never recovered. The late 1960's cars have remained for me the cars by which all the others are measured.

[Michaelhatesfans]

Somebody with a much better idea of my dream car!

Mine,

http://www.allamericanracers.com/gurney_grand-prix/eagle-weslake_dutch-gp6-67.jpg

:cool:

[miatanut]

Mine,

http://www.allamericanracers.com/gurney_grand-prix/eagle-weslake_dutch-gp6-67.jpg

:cool:

Gorgeous!

The Eagle is also my #1 favorite, followed by the early Lotus 49. Probably the Sharknose Ferrari (which came before I followed the sport) at #3. It's a bit odd, but it was innovative, and had the cleanest rear design of any of the early rear-engine cars.

[oddlycalm]

I don't think you need 650 HP IF you take away a lot of downforce. Agreed, it would be fun to watch with big ol' sticky tires though...:D

oc

[Ziggy]

This thread is funny on several levels :D:rofl:

[Andrew Longman]

Gorgeous!

This photo has been on my office wall for years. '65 Italian GP. Gurney at bottom behind Clark, Stewart and Hill. :D

http://www.latphoto.co.uk/thumbnails/2007/01/23/LAT2007012310027_PVW.jpg?1169549686

[miatanut]

This photo has been on my office wall for years. '65 Italian GP. Gurney at bottom behind Clark, Stewart and Hill. :D

http://www.latphoto.co.uk/thumbnails/2007/01/23/LAT2007012310027_PVW.jpg?1169549686

Sweet! Second Lesmo?

And that would be the 1.5 L formula, so they have nice drifts going with a little over 200 HP!