It's official! The IRL blows

[cameraman]

When balanced against the inevitable stall outs on the grid, not really. It's racing ... **** happens. There will always be first corner incidents because drivers are human.

You've missed the point again. The complication comes into play because you're proposing two different ways to start the races -- at present there's only one, thus no complication is introduced.

And again, you're scapegoating rolling starts as inherently bad, which is nonsense. There are plenty of races in the history books that had beautifully-executed rolling starts -- it's down to the drivers having a clear understanding of what's required of them and the officials having the guts to assess penalties when directions aren't followed. Faulting the method for the misexecution of the participants is exactly the sort of reactionary knee-jerk move the IRL should strive to avoid. There are plenty of ways to **** up standing starts too ... one is no better than the other.

Any standing start proponents want to take a stab at justifying their use at the beginning of the race but not in the middle? When we're done maybe we can have a go at explaining why those evil rolling starts lead to more first corner crashes even though the cars are "strung out over half the track!" :gomer:

The only thing that is evident here is you hate standing starts and therefore in your eyes they will forever and always be wrong:rolleyes:

Whatever.

[cameraman]

So shut 'em off and send the crews out with starter guns one minute before the lights come on.

Next excuse ...

The cars are starting single file after a yellow just like a CCWS rolling start after the second wave off. See, no need to stop the cars.

[Ed_Severson]

The only thing that is evident here is you hate standing starts and therefore in your eyes they will forever and always be wrong:rolleyes:

Whatever.

:cry:

Swing and a miss, big guy.

I love F1's standing starts. Hell, I even enjoyed them in Champ Car last year. I just don't think it makes any sense to use them in a series where you're stuck with rolling starts half the time anyway. But hey, let's get all pissy about it instead of actually making an attempt to rebut my points. That's way more interesting!

Then again, your rebuttal would be pointless anyway, according to you. You don't watch, right? Never have, never will, I'm sure. :tony:

[Ed_Severson]

The cars are starting single file after a yellow just like a CCWS rolling start after the second wave off. See, no need to stop the cars.

So then, why not single file rolling starts at the beginning of the race too?

[miatanut]

I love F1's standing starts. Hell, I even enjoyed them in Champ Car last year. I just don't think it makes any sense to use them in a series where you're stuck with rolling starts half the time anyway.

Champ Car was originally only going to use them at a few venues, but when they went well and became a big hit, they decided to make them standard.

[WickerBill]

If this were politics, and you were a Federalist, and the Whigs destroyed everything you loved about your country, rat bastards who you thought you could trust defected to the Whig side, the Whigs lied profusely about why they destructed everything, how would you feel?

How would you feel if over a decade later, when everything the Whigs were supposedly trying to accomplish failed, and they only thing they accomplished was gaining power, they started changing the nation back to the way it was under the Federalists? Would you be grateful to the same people who are in power who were the architects of the destruction? Would you tell all of your Federalist friends that "hey, give this Whig thing some more time, it might be good"? Would you attend Whig rallies? Would you donate your money to the Whig party?

I will tell you what I would do: I would not be involved, and it would take a complete change of the people in charge of the Whig party, and potentially a change of the Whig name even, for me to feel even remotely right about supporting it. I would never be able to support it, no matter the changes for the better, while the same person/people were running that party.


He destroyed the sport I loved for his personal gain. I don't mean I liked the sport. I mean I loved it and was extremely passionate about it. He used it as a plaything so he could gain power.

And you want me to watch his series because of two tire compounds?

You don't understand what he did to me.

[Ed_Severson]

Champ Car was originally only going to use them at a few venues, but when they went well and became a big hit, they decided to make them standard.

If your goal here was to get me to say that that would have been goofy, you've succeeded. Otherwise, I don't see how this really demonstrates any real benefit.

[Ed_Severson]

... and potentially a change of the Whig name even ...

I see this one get thrown around a lot ... I don't get it. Who cares what it's called? If he renamed the series CART tomorrow, you still wouldn't want to watch it, so what difference does it make?



You don't understand what he did to me.

Sorry, I'm not buying it. The assertion that your experience was worse than someone else's because you have a harder time getting over it is both bunk and, quite frankly, insulting. You're better than that.

Here's one thing I would add, WB. Back in 1995, were you so amped up about the product or about the management and politics of the series? Because if your answer to that question is the product, what's the point in allowing the series management -- which you didn't give a **** about 13 years ago -- to ruin your enjoyment of the product if what they offer you today is just as good as it was then?

Don't get me wrong -- I'm not suggesting that IndyCar 2008 = CART 1995, but what if IndyCar 2011 does? Why let who owns the series have that much control over what you enjoy? Tony George is just one guy -- he's only as meaningful to you as you allow him to be, and if you give him control of your enjoyment of the sport, well, you've got nobody to blame but yourself.

You said:


Would you be grateful to the same people who are in power who were the architects of the destruction? Would you tell all of your Federalist friends that "hey, give this Whig thing some more time, it might be good"?

Nobody's asking you to be grateful to the Whigs, and nobody's asking you to forget what the Whigs have done in the past. All I'm saying is what the Whigs are offering you now has the potential to be exactly what it was you wanted all along, so who gives a **** that they're in power? You can enjoy the Whig platform and still think the guys running the Whig party are a bunch of *******s ... you just choose not to.

[cameraman]

But hey, let's get all pissy about it instead of actually making an attempt to rebut my points.

You have not made a single point other than you don't like standing starts on a road course, using the new IRL turbo powered cars that don't even exist yet, two years from now.

You like them in CCWS, you like them in F1 but for some reason it is an affront to all that is holy for the IRL gnomes to throw in a few standing starts in 2011.

Whatever.

[Ed_Severson]

You have not made a single point other than you don't like standing starts on a road course ...

I haven't made that point at all. It's not my fault you can't pick up on that.


Whatever.

I humbly suggest you keep this response on speed dial, since it thus far seems to be the extent of your abilities. You could go with "I'm frustrated because I don't understand your point and I can't figure out how to convert you" but "whatever" saves a lot of keystrokes. ;)

[miatanut]

If TG wanted to get all the old, hardcore CART fans back aboard, he shouldn't have followed his scorched earth policy these last few years, and he should have made the reunification look more like a merger of equals than the total control he was going for, and achieved.

He's got his work cut out for him if he's ever going to get most of this bunch back. Since he's scared off most of the traditional fanbase he does need this bunch if he's going to have "won" anything.

[Cam]

Here's one thing I would add, WB. Back in 1995, were you so amped up about the product or about the management and politics of the series? Because if your answer to that question is the product, what's the point in allowing the series management -- which you didn't give a **** about 13 years ago -- to ruin your enjoyment of the product if what they offer you today is just as good as it was then?

That's the whole point right there. 13 years. For 13 years we have been subjected top the split so that 1 person got his own selfish way. So for 13 years we have had to put up with the absolute mediocrity that has defined the irl while the lucky ***** recipient outspent the series he wanted to be. It's those lost 13 years of bull**** that make the results of all this very hollow.

You are correct nobody watching gave a rats about the management prior to this, however the current management has deprived us of 13 years of something that would have been a hell of a lot better than what we have now. :irked:

[Gnam]

IndyCar 2008 still has a lot of room for improvement but it's not that bad, and there are a lot of signs that it is going to get progressively better, at least if CART is the model you're comparing it to -- and I think we all have that in common.
Wasn't that Champ Car's constant excuse? :laugh:

[Ed_Severson]

... he should have made the reunification look more like a merger of equals than the total control he was going for, and achieved.

How so, exactly?

[WickerBill]

I see this one get thrown around a lot ... I don't get it. Who cares what it's called? If he renamed the series CART tomorrow, you still wouldn't want to watch it, so what difference does it make?

He's even said it himself -- IRL is a divisive name and probably has to go. It has been the object of hatred for thirteen years. There's a reason companies like ValuJet change their names... because their former identities are destroyed.





Sorry, I'm not buying it. The assertion that your experience was worse than someone else's because you have a harder time getting over it is both bunk and, quite frankly, insulting. You're better than that.

NO I AM NOT. Everyone experiences things differently depending on how involved and attached they were. Do you know what my situation was? Don't be too quick to dole out judgment on me.


what's the point in allowing the series management -- which you didn't give a **** about 13 years ago -- to ruin your enjoyment of the product if what they offer you today is just as good as it was then?

Because management made it personal. Management made himself bigger than the sport and impossible to ignore. You're obviously a person who would have no issue buying a product that was made by a company that does heinous things, or a diamond from an iffy source, so long as that product or diamond made you happy. Good on ya. Not for me. I don't think I can consume the product, even if its the greatest caviar ever, until management changes or there is a clear renouncement of the activities of the past.

[oddlycalm]

All I'm saying is what the Whigs are offering you now has the potential to be exactly what it was you wanted all along, so who gives a **** that they're in power? You can enjoy the Whig platform and still think the guys running the Whig party are a bunch of *******s ... you just choose not to.
I don't see that happening Ed. CART's appeal was professional level racing that targeted at a more sophisticated audience while the EARL is aiming lower. I see no indication that's going to change.

The EARL could be running a great chassis and engine and the reality would be the same dumbed down farce with better cars. The sponsors are still gone, the crowds are long gone and it would be generous to say that barely half the field are decent journeyman level drivers.

They just locked themselves into a long term broadcast contract with same group of world class nitwits with the difference being that all but a few races will run on Versus rather than ESPN2. The broadcasts are aimed at people that move their mouths when they sign their name, as is the entire enterprise. Honestly, after reading your posts for quite a few years now I can't really imagine you finding it very compelling either, but perhaps I'm wrong.

Bottom line is that the tiny EARL audience will hate the road racing and the former CART audience will hate the EARL. I see no happy ending.

oc

[Ed_Severson]

WB, I get that you feel pretty strongly about this. That's not a surprise, and I'm not telling you that's wrong. I think you're overreacting here.

You're asking me to not "be too quick to dole out judgment on you," but you've done exactly the same to me. No, I don't know the specifics of your situation at the time of the split, but "you don't understand what he did to me" is awfully goddamn condescending, and smacks of an entry in a biggest fan dick-waving contest, which I have absolutely no interest in. It's totally unnecessary, particularly given our personal history. For Christ's sake, at one point you considered me a rabid enough fan of CART to seriously think I would spend five minutes of my life physically assaulting another person for no reason other than their professed enjoyment of the IRL, and you banned me from 7th Gear for it.

At best, I will lose a ton of money over the course of my career in the sport, and whatever I might accomplish in the future will probably be derided by some as illegitimate because of who runs the series; at worst, I've flat out lost the opportunity to even have a career in the sport. I say that not for the purpose of rubbing it in anyone's face, but merely to point out that whatever your situation might have been, you're not the only person involved in this conversation who has lost something more than simple fanship. We've all got plenty of reasons to be angry about what happened ... who has the best or longest list isn't relevant, and it's beneath you to suggest that it is, whether you think so or not. You're not a petty person, but that's a petty argument to make. For that matter, so is this:


You're obviously a person who would have no issue buying a product that was made by a company that does heinous things, or a diamond from an iffy source

It's ****ing racing. You're sorely mistaken if you think you can read my moral compass based on what racing series I choose to watch or not watch. I'm pretty disappointed by this. Way out of line here, and pretty surprising considering the source. I don't know where this is coming from, but this is not the WickerBill we're used to.

Hope your boy's doing well, and you'll have to pardon me for ending this discussion there, at least as far as you and I are concerned.

[opinionated ow]

You have not made a single point other than you don't like standing starts on a road course, using the new IRL turbo powered cars that don't even exist yet, two years from now.

You like them in CCWS, you like them in F1 but for some reason it is an affront to all that is holy for the IRL gnomes to throw in a few standing starts in 2011.

Whatever.

You don't get it. It is not that it was ok in Champ Car or in F1. It is that if this is supposed to be the continuation of history, this series should have rolling starts. Simple as that. Champ Car became the shittiest series in racing (apart form the IRL) just before its demise. It lost ALL links with what it was supposed to be. If the IRL is the continuation of the championship, it needs to hark on its roots. A combination of road races and ovals using rolling starts without anything "spec."

[Ed_Severson]

I don't see that happening Ed. CART's appeal was professional level racing that targeted at a more sophisticated audience while the EARL is aiming lower. I see no indication that's going to change.

If that change is going to come, it will have to be driven by the technical partners involved -- chassis constructors and, more importantly, engine manufacturers. In that regard, the new engine platform at least hints at a step in the right direction. It all depends on the details of the package, what manufacturers they get on board, and how those manufacturers activate their involvement in the sport. It's a long way off, sure, but it's a start.


Honestly, after reading your posts for quite a few years now I can't really imagine you finding it very compelling either, but perhaps I'm wrong.

I don't know that I'd say it's terribly compelling right now, but I would say that there are some elements in place that give me some optimism about the future. I'll admit that it's been refreshing to see all of the top teams in the sport in one paddock again, and it's been refreshing to see some oval racing. Road and street racing will always be more interesting to me, but I never disliked oval racing. I think the aero package could use some work -- although it doesn't seem to be as bad this year as, say, 3 or 4 years ago with regard to pack racing -- and I'd love to see the high-banked 1.5 milers like Texas and Kansas dropped like a hot potato. Taking the series to Phoenix, Loudon, and Gateway would be a big improvement, in my opinion.

More than anything else, it's what is left. You can either sit around and hope it gets destroyed too so you can bask in the fiery glow of pyrrhic victory, walk away entirely and potentially punish yourself for the sake of punishing some billionaire who neither knows nor cares that you even exist, or accept the hand that's been dealt and play cards. I'll take my chances at the table ... that's all I'm getting at here.

I love and enjoy the sport, and to me, that will always be more important than which dickheads happen to be running it at any given time. If I have the opportunity to be part of making it better, even if it's just as a fan, I'd rather do that than wash my hands of it. Obviously not everyone will feel that way, but I'm surprised at the resentment a lot of people seem to have about the fact that I or anyone else might choose that option.

[miatanut]

How so, exactly?

The main thing was he dragged the negotiations on to the 11th hour because he correctly read that the Amigos' commitment was gone, so they would stick with the negotiations past the point of no return, and he could then have everything the way he wanted it. Great negotiating tactic. Lousy way to reunite everybody.

Then, despite the considerable control he has by being the chief executive of The Only Race That Really Matters, he put only one CCWS race on the schedule, rather than reshuffling his schedule. If he hadn't dragged the negotiations out, they could have done a more mixed schedule. When they got to the one race, I understand the IRL teams got extra practice, which did not occur for the CCWS teams on the other tracks.

They could have made the DP01/Cossie combo eligible, with reduced boost on the Cossie so it had about the same power as the Honder. Even with the CCWS teams new to most of the tracks, it would have made it a more interesting season, and if the DP01 teams dared to rise above their station in life, they could have further reduced the boost.

The could have done a bit more with series name and promotion to emphasize the merger angle, rather than CCWS being absorbed.

They could have put Goodyear on a shorter leash with the "transition teams" stuff.

Tony could have not said "This is not a time for gloating", which made it clear to everyone what was on his mind (even though his mind is simple enough we all knew it already).

I'm sure there's a lot more possibilities, but those are what I can come up with right now.

[miatanut]

Bottom line is that the tiny EARL audience will hate the road racing and the former CART audience will hate the EARL. I see no happy ending.

oc

Exactly!

[cameraman]

It is that if this is supposed to be the continuation of history, this series should have rolling starts. Simple as that.

If you are all caught up with history there should not be any road courses at all and the series should be running home-built front engined, death buckets on ovals like it did in the glory days.

The IRL isn't a continuation of anything.

[miatanut]

We're really debating how many angels can dance on the head of a pin here.

One key component is whether there is a schedule full of successful venues. That's not part of the game plan as long as Tony is in control. We will continue to see a schedule of decrepit, struggling venues which can never be a threat to The Only Race That Really Matters.

[Indy]

Ed, I will concede to you the idea that who runs it and what they call it do not matter. That leaves us the actual product, so let me ask you this: if the series looked, sounded, and smelled exactly like CART 1995, but you knew that behind the scenes the whole thing was faked and staged, would it appeal to you?

This is the fundamental issue. Indy Car ownership and management show no signs of understanding what it is that the hard core fans want: real racing, real sport. Their ethically challenged nature drives their thinking, and they clearly think that to win the fan back they need to devise a better "show."

It is not about a show, Ed.

[opinionated ow]

Ed, I will concede to you the idea that who runs it and what they call it do not matter. That leaves us the actual product, so let me ask you this: if the series looked, sounded, and smelled exactly like CART 1995, but you knew that behind the scenes the whole thing was faked and staged, would it appeal to you?

This is the fundamental issue. Indy Car ownership and management show no signs of understanding what it is that the hard core fans want: real racing, real sport. Their ethically challenged nature drives their thinking, and they clearly think that to win the fan back they need to devise a better "show."

It is not about a show, Ed.
That bit is something neglected by sporting promoters worldwide. Most of the people who are going to go to your sporting event are going to go for the fair competition, the sporting aspects. This is why the NASCAR crowds are on the decline, this is why the World of Outlaws crowds are on the way up. This is why people will not go to many short track races, but will go to a cricket match. The gimmicks associated with the racing and the dodgy unfair rules imposed are putting people off.

Why can't motorsport just be promoted as a sport? Why does everyone think you need a concert post race to keep people coming? If people wanted to see a concert, they would go to a concert. People need to be brought up to speed on the fairness/sporting aspects of the categories. Gimmicks like push to pass, closed pitlanes, compulsory use of alternate tyre compounds (and dare I say it) "spec" regulations are none of these things.

To keep just a championship racing perspective to it, what kept the crowds going to the USAC era races, but not now. At both stages in time there was plenty of competition around the place, poor setups for competitors. The difference was that it was a sport, not entertainment. Each competitor had their own idea of what engine/chassis/tyre combination worked for them. The rules were fair, made sense and did not penalise you for trying something different.

(probably incomplete, but I am too tired to reread this rant)

[Kiwifan]

That's the way I see it oow. :) I know we have crossed over Surfers (100,000 drunk V8 Fans) but you are right, for me it was always about the racing.

I love the Surfers event, I don't mind the party, the music or the girls but I object to the jazzing up during the actual racing. Want music? Go to a concert. Want racing? Go to the track.

I think the big boys should have kept an eye on the other series. The Aus cars put on a great show, have full fields and lots of sponsors. If they can do it, why not OW?

I seriously believed CART/Champ Car was as good as F1 but what I failed to realise was the owners loved the dollar more than the racing or fans. How can anyone (owners) honestly say they are happy racing in front of poor (free tickets!) crowds and not like the full crowds of the late 90s to early 2000s? It just beats me. :(

Rusty.

[sadams]

Correct, it's not about the "show", it's about racing and the display of technology that make me want to watch. I watched IMSA during the Dan Gurney Eagle era when I knew they were going to run away and hide. I watched hoping somebody would step up and challenge them. Same thing with CART during the Ganasi era with JV,AZ and JPM or Newman Haas with Nigel Mansell.
Thems the rules and the guys who figure out an "unfair advantage" are going to win until somebody else figures out the next "unfair advantage".

That's the appeal to me, not the stage managed crap in NeckCar and now the EARL.

[Ed_Severson]

The main thing was he dragged the negotiations on to the 11th hour because he correctly read that the Amigos' commitment was gone, so they would stick with the negotiations past the point of no return, and he could then have everything the way he wanted it. Great negotiating tactic. Lousy way to reunite everybody.

It takes two to tango, does it not? I think the blame for the timing has to be shared equally by both involved parties. The timing absolutely sucked ... no argument there.


If he hadn't dragged the negotiations out, they could have done a more mixed schedule. When they got to the one race, I understand the IRL teams got extra practice, which did not occur for the CCWS teams on the other tracks.

Not really. The IRL had to honor the existing contracts they had in place, one of which stipulates that the race in Chicagoland is the season-ender. That limits what you can fit into a summer, and given that they already had the teams running on 6 consecutive weekends, there's not much else they could do. Obviously '09 will incorporate more former Champ Car events than '08, and '10 will probably have more than '09. That's been the plan all along.

As for Edmonton, I don't know where you're getting your info, but nobody got any extra sessions. The T&S reports are readily available ... everybody participated in every practice.


They could have made the DP01/Cossie combo eligible, with reduced boost on the Cossie so it had about the same power as the Honder. Even with the CCWS teams new to most of the tracks, it would have made it a more interesting season, and if the DP01 teams dared to rise above their station in life, they could have further reduced the boost.

What a nightmare. Two chassis built to completely different specs. Two engines built to completely different specs, taking in air in different ways, and running on different fuels. Two technical inspection pads with different sets of tools. Two fuel suppliers. Two sets of hooks on the wreckers. Practically two entirely separate rulebooks, which would have been another huge delay in getting things rolling, as if we didn't start too late already.

Not to mention, of course, that there is no DP01 aero package for ovals, which makes the entire idea moot anyhow. Not much fun flatfooting it 40 mph slower than the other guy.


The could have done a bit more with series name and promotion to emphasize the merger angle, rather than CCWS being absorbed.

Pointless. A name change isn't going to fool anybody who's been paying attention and there are barely any casual fans left.


They could have put Goodyear on a shorter leash with the "transition teams" stuff.

Goodyear's an idiot ... you were expecting the merger to change that?


Tony could have not said "This is not a time for gloating", which made it clear to everyone what was on his mind (even though his mind is simple enough we all knew it already).

If you're looking for an excuse to be offended, I suppose this is as good as any.


if the series looked, sounded, and smelled exactly like CART 1995, but you knew that behind the scenes the whole thing was faked and staged, would it appeal to you?

If you're suggesting that they're fixing race results, just go ahead and be obvious about it so I can move forward with my massive purchase of Reynolds Wrap shares. I will agree that the competition is somewhat contrived in that the technical package artificially limits the teams from getting away from each other, but the idea that races are being manipulated is pretty ludicrous.

[Andrew Longman]

Wow, we're really getting pissy around here. Sort of like watching the parents fight. :rolleyes:

[Insomniac]

When balanced against the inevitable stall outs on the grid, not really. It's racing ... **** happens. There will always be first corner incidents because drivers are human.

Now you're using an F1 race to counter that ChampCar had less pileups (and generally better starts) with the standing starts vs. rolling starts. We see stall outs, but they haven't been a problem. I fail to see how less accidents to begin a race isn't a compelling enough reason to use them?

[Insomniac]

I'll admit that it's been refreshing to see all of the top teams in the sport in one paddock again

They had everyone but N/H since 2003. Not much has changed.

[Insomniac]

Ed, I will concede to you the idea that who runs it and what they call it do not matter. That leaves us the actual product, so let me ask you this: if the series looked, sounded, and smelled exactly like CART 1995, but you knew that behind the scenes the whole thing was faked and staged, would it appeal to you?

This is the fundamental issue. Indy Car ownership and management show no signs of understanding what it is that the hard core fans want: real racing, real sport. Their ethically challenged nature drives their thinking, and they clearly think that to win the fan back they need to devise a better "show."

It is not about a show, Ed.

If it "looked, sounded, and smelled exactly like CART 1995" and the only difference was TG in charge, it would appeal to me. However, I'm not sure what you mean by "faked and staged". I don't know how you would fake and stage all that.

[Ed_Severson]

I'm not "using an F1 race" so much as I just like the picture :) , but it's a pretty good example. We still see incidents all the time in F1, and their history of standing starts is a lot longer than Champ Car's ... I'm just not convinced that a good 10 race stretch from 2007 is enough data to say conclusively that standing starts really correlate to fewer accidents. Even if they do, I still don't see that as a terribly compelling reason to implement them; whether an accident happens in the first corner or on lap 50 ultimately doesn't make any difference.

However you start the race, it still comes down to the guys strapped into the cars. Giving them clear instruction and clear consequences is the easiest path to the best results, regardless of which method you use to start the race. That's really my only point -- implementing standing starts doesn't act on the root cause of the problem; it's just a band-aid to treat the symptoms. And, as oow pointed out, rolling starts are consistent with the century-long history of the sport on this continent. In my opinion, the IRL needs to do everything it can to draw some connection between itself and the first 90 years or so of the sport.

I think most here would agree that this is a matter of personal preference, and at this point we're probably boring a lot of people. ;)

[SurfaceUnits]

They had everyone but N/H since 2003. Not much has changed.

and it's great to spend an afternoon watching the buffoons who killed CART :rolleyes:

[Insomniac]

I'm not "using an F1 race" so much as I just like the picture :) , but it's a pretty good example. We still see incidents all the time in F1, and their history of standing starts is a lot longer than Champ Car's ... I'm just not convinced that a good 10 race stretch from 2007 is enough data to say conclusively that standing starts really correlate to fewer accidents. Even if they do, I still don't see that as a terribly compelling reason to implement them; whether an accident happens in the first corner or on lap 50 ultimately doesn't make any difference.

However you start the race, it still comes down to the guys strapped into the cars. Giving them clear instruction and clear consequences is the easiest path to the best results, regardless of which method you use to start the race. That's really my only point -- implementing standing starts doesn't act on the root cause of the problem; it's just a band-aid to treat the symptoms. And, as oow pointed out, rolling starts are consistent with the century-long history of the sport on this continent. In my opinion, the IRL needs to do everything it can to draw some connection between itself and the first 90 years or so of the sport.

I think most here would agree that this is a matter of personal preference, and at this point we're probably boring a lot of people. ;)

While there are always incidents in F1, they are generally much more minor than those you saw in CC towards the end (before standing starts). I disagree that it makes no difference between lap 1 and lap 50. Mario Dominguez banzaing the first 2 rows on lap 1 is far worse than him taking 1 car out in the middle of the race.

I agree that they were able to do rolling starts quite well at some point, but for whatever reason (I'm thinking safety) they have spaced them out so far that they are all going at different speeds and it just causes problems. Better officiating and a crack down would help, but here we are and they haven't done anything. The Indy 500 is the ultimate joke when it comes to rolling starts. (I know standing starts aren't for ovals, my point is they can't even be bothered to do that "right".) I think the standing start is better than the rolling starts as they are handled now. (And I would prefer restarts be in a rolling start formation instead of single file. I never understood why they did it two ways if you want to continue with the consistency argument, that's another inconsistency.)

Absent of the clear instructions, and clearly following them, a standing start puts everyone in the same starting position. It's easy to see if anyone jumped the start. There is only one rule on the start. It's simpler from that perspective. Get going on green. No shenanigans.

[eiregosod]

Only one way to do that properly.

http://www.can-am-recycling.com/photo22.jpg

Thanks PJ!

[nrc]

Wow, we're really getting pissy around here. Sort of like watching the parents fight. :rolleyes:

Agreed. Let's everyone take a deep breath an count to ten before your next reply.

[miatanut]

What a nightmare. Two chassis built to completely different specs. Two engines built to completely different specs, taking in air in different ways, and running on different fuels. Two technical inspection pads with different sets of tools. Two fuel suppliers. Two sets of hooks on the wreckers. Practically two entirely separate rulebooks, which would have been another huge delay in getting things rolling, as if we didn't start too late already.

The two different packages built to completely different specs would have gotten this merger off with a major bang. Talk about publicity! The two warring series duking it out, wheel-to-wheel for a full season.

CCWS and the CCWS teams already had everything they needed to run that package. There were wreckers that already had the right hooks on them, ready to use, if that was such a show stopper that no machine shop could fabricate an adapter to hand one hook on another.

That was really the biggest screw-up of all. Tony could have made a big show out of it, gotten far better publicity out of it, the racing would have been more interesting with two packages so different, "side-by-side", but his ego prevented that. He wanted total victory. He got it. And lost more than half the folks who have been paying their hard-earned money to attend races these last few years.

In other words, I would have remained a fan if it had appeared as a merger of equals, and I think a lot of other long-term haters who knew the sport had to be reunited if it was going to survive, would too. Having the teams I had been rooting for competing with the equipment they were used to with a reasonable equivalency formula would have been a major step to keep my interest.

An opportunity squandered.

[miatanut]

Agreed. Let's everyone take a deep breath an count to ten before your next reply.

This thread has been the most action we've had around here in ages! :thumbup:

[Insomniac]

The two different packages built to completely different specs would have gotten this merger off with a major bang. Talk about publicity! The two warring series duking it out, wheel-to-wheel for a full season.

CCWS and the CCWS teams already had everything they needed to run that package. There were wreckers that already had the right hooks on them, ready to use, if that was such a show stopper that no machine shop could fabricate an adapter to hand one hook on another.

That was really the biggest screw-up of all. Tony could have made a big show out of it, gotten far better publicity out of it, the racing would have been more interesting with two packages so different, "side-by-side", but his ego prevented that. He wanted total victory. He got it. And lost more than half the folks who have been paying their hard-earned money to attend races these last few years.

In other words, I would have remained a fan if it had appeared as a merger of equals, and I think a lot of other long-term haters who knew the sport had to be reunited if it was going to survive, would too. Having the teams I had been rooting for competing with the equipment they were used to with a reasonable equivalency formula would have been a major step to keep my interest.

An opportunity squandered.

It's fun to dump it all on TG, but do you actually believe that Penske, TCGR, AGR, etc. would allow, for a second, the DP01 to come in to the series and be competitive even if TG got two neurons to fire and point out that would be a good idea for bringing CC fans over into the fold?

[oddlycalm]

What a nightmare. Two chassis built to completely different specs. Two engines built to completely different specs, taking in air in different ways, and running on different fuels. Two technical inspection pads with different sets of tools. Two fuel suppliers. Two sets of hooks on the wreckers. Practically two entirely separate rulebooks, which would have been another huge delay in getting things rolling, as if we didn't start too late already.

Not to mention, of course, that there is no DP01 aero package for ovals, which makes the entire idea moot anyhow. Not much fun flatfooting it 40 mph slower than the other guy.

I get that time was short and, while the examples you give of the obvious complications are valid, but that's a mighty hard case to make to fans who have seen grids with Lola, Reynard, Penske, Swift and Eagle chassis and have waited for more than a decade to have the split resolved. It's not the fans fault that time was short. The differences between Ethanol and Methanol are lost on nearly everyone and most will see no need to flatfoot it 40mph slower when they believe a simple increase in boost would level the field. These feelings don't have to be correct for them to pose a serious problem.

Owner stubbornness led to an extremely poor resolution to a decade plus problem caused by, lets see, owner stubbornness. Fans don't have to care, stay invested in, or stay quiet about any of it and, by the way, neither do sponsors or what little media there is that still covers this mess. There are only a handful of people on the planet who care enough to argue about it.

Resolution of the split was a window of opportunity that has now closed. By screwing it up the owner of the series has very likely sealed it's fate. What we have is a much dumbed down version of CART which fans of both series will hate equally, though for different reasons.

Not fixing the broadcast production, which is the worst ever seen in professional racing, then signing a long term contract that perpetuates that travesty, is just the is one more in the litany of tone deaf decision making that got us to this point. :irked:

Putting turbos engines in the cars is like pissing on a burning building to put the fire out. Way too little and around a decade late.

oc

[G.]

Dallaras vs Panoz.

I would be watching (more) this year by far!

But in a sense, it would perpetuate the split. It would still be us vs. them, but it would add eyeballs.

I don't know what the long term effect would be, but we all know the short term indifference.

Also, I thought that standing starts would be a FUBAR last year. They weren't. Once I saw that they could do it, I really liked them. Alot.

There.

I have contributed to this most important thread.

Now, who wants an insult? :) I think Ank needs one. ;)

[cameraman]

I think Ank needs one. ;)

Some things are eternal.

[Indy]

An opportunity squandered.

That sums it up nicely.

[miatanut]

It's fun to dump it all on TG, but do you actually believe that Penske, TCGR, AGR, etc. would allow, for a second, the DP01 to come in to the series and be competitive even if TG got two neurons to fire and point out that would be a good idea for bringing CC fans over into the fold?

Like I said above, if the CCWS teams got too competitive, and got dangerously close to leading the championship, the IRL could always further reduce the boost during the season. Many series have been dealing with equivalency formulae for decades. They just have to deal with the screams of the various participants not happy that the formula (in their opinion) isn't right. Advantage is now, they could run both packages through the whole season on a computer and come up with a petty accurate estimate on what the Cossie boost would need to be to make them pretty equivalent. If it turned out to be a little off, it could be adjusted during the season.

[miatanut]

That sums it up nicely.

Thank you!

[Insomniac]

Like I said above, if the CCWS teams got too competitive, and got dangerously close to leading the championship, the IRL could always further reduce the boost during the season. Many series have been dealing with equivalency formulae for decades. They just have to deal with the screams of the various participants not happy that the formula (in their opinion) isn't right. Advantage is now, they could run both packages through the whole season on a computer and come up with a petty accurate estimate on what the Cossie boost would need to be to make them pretty equivalent. If it turned out to be a little off, it could be adjusted during the season.

It's not as simple as adjusting the boost. A DP01 can go through a corner much quicker than a crapwagon. You'd essentially lower the boost to raise lap times. The net effect would be crapwagons passing the DP01 on straightaways.

[miatanut]

It's not as simple as adjusting the boost. A DP01 can go through a corner much quicker than a crapwagon. You'd essentially lower the boost to lower lap times. The net effect would be crapwagons passing the DP01 on straightaways.

Exactly!

In other words, racing like when I was young, and the cars weren't all clones of each other, so they had different capabilities and drivers could pass.

And I think you mean lower the boost to raise lap times, right?

[Insomniac]

Exactly!

In other words, racing like when I was young, and the cars weren't all clones of each other, so they had different capabilities and drivers could pass.

And I think you mean lower the boost to raise lap times, right?

Yes, I meant raise lap times. Yikes. I definitely don't think a crapwagon is faster than a DP01.

We've seen what has happened to the racing though. Cornering speeds are more important for lap time, but you can't pass in corners, even if you're clearly faster. It was a problem for CC and you see it in F1. I imagine the IRL is no different. So if you slow the DP01 on the straights, they are at a disadvantage. They can't pass in the turns, and if a crapwagon can stay reasonably close going into a straight, they will pass the DP01 and then hold it up in corners.

I understand where you're coming from, but when the formula was wide open for anything, everyone was going for the same thing, more speed. Now you're talking about having 2 spec chassis' and trying to make them even when they were designed to behave quite differently on road courses. Not to mention we don't know how much aero can be trimmed out of a DP01 for ovals vs. a crapwagon.

The equivalency idea was good in theory, but in application, the IRL would've ensured that the DP01 was behind the crapwagon.

[Stu]

This thread has been the most action we've had around here in ages! :thumbup:

you're welcome. :gomer:

[opinionated ow]

Yes, I meant raise lap times. Yikes. I definitely don't think a crapwagon is faster than a DP01.

We've seen what has happened to the racing though. Cornering speeds are more important for lap time, but you can't pass in corners, even if you're clearly faster. It was a problem for CC and you see it in F1. I imagine the IRL is no different. So if you slow the DP01 on the straights, they are at a disadvantage. They can't pass in the turns, and if a crapwagon can stay reasonably close going into a straight, they will pass the DP01 and then hold it up in corners.

I understand where you're coming from, but when the formula was wide open for anything, everyone was going for the same thing, more speed. Now you're talking about having 2 spec chassis' and trying to make them even when they were designed to behave quite differently on road courses. Not to mention we don't know how much aero can be trimmed out of a DP01 for ovals vs. a crapwagon.

The equivalency idea was good in theory, but in application, the IRL would've ensured that the DP01 was behind the crapwagon.

Smack on. You could do it if they had built the cars to the same spec. In this instance they didn't.

[Insomniac]

Smack on. You could do it if they had built the cars to the same spec. In this instance they didn't.

I should also add, that if it was the case where the crapwagon was faster (in my mind, there's no question, it would've been) the teams that could afford it (basically N/H/L) would buy crapwagons. So you'd have the lower rung CC teams running in the back of the pack in DP01s. I'm not sure how that gets any CC fan excited.

[SurfaceUnits]

CC fans are excited about the open wheel program under development by the IMSA/ALMS folks

[cameraman]

CC fans are excited about the open wheel program under development by the IMSA/ALMS folks

aka the Cooper Tires Atlantic Championship,,,

[miatanut]

Yes, I meant raise lap times. Yikes. I definitely don't think a crapwagon is faster than a DP01.

We've seen what has happened to the racing though. Cornering speeds are more important for lap time, but you can't pass in corners, even if you're clearly faster. It was a problem for CC and you see it in F1. I imagine the IRL is no different. So if you slow the DP01 on the straights, they are at a disadvantage. They can't pass in the turns, and if a crapwagon can stay reasonably close going into a straight, they will pass the DP01 and then hold it up in corners.

I understand where you're coming from, but when the formula was wide open for anything, everyone was going for the same thing, more speed. Now you're talking about having 2 spec chassis' and trying to make them even when they were designed to behave quite differently on road courses. Not to mention we don't know how much aero can be trimmed out of a DP01 for ovals vs. a crapwagon.

The equivalency idea was good in theory, but in application, the IRL would've ensured that the DP01 was behind the crapwagon.
You're right. It wouldn't work. It would be like a fast-cornering ALMS P2 Porsche trying to get past an ALMS P1 Audi which is faster on the straight and could then blow by even if the Porsche made the pass in the turn. The P2 Porsche could never challenge for an overall victory.

Oh, wait, I guess it can!

The question is whether you are too young to remember when cars that were better in the turns raced against cars that were better on the straight because the cars were different or have just forgotten those days. The racing HAS gotten boring as the cars all became clones. In ACO/ALMS, you still get racing the old fashioned way.

The superspeedway races (just two of them, right?) would be an issue, because the DP01 would have way too much downforce/drag but on the other ovals, the IRL uses road course wings, and the crapwagons were slower at Milwaukee than the Lolas, which appear to be pretty much the same overall downforce/lap time spec. as the DP01, running it's normal level of boost. That's the great thing about turbos, you can reduce the boost to reduce power and attain equivalency, and you can turn it back up to the level where you've developed the engine to attain equivalency. You just can't turn it above what it's been developed for without doing more development.

It would have made for a great season.

[miatanut]

aka the Cooper Tires Atlantic Championship,,,

Atlantic is fun, but if they could put about 150 more horsepower on that chassis and take away some downforce, they would have a proper heir to the CART (or at least early Atlantic) legacy.

[cameraman]

I think the ALMS has bigger fish to fry at the moment.
On an electric skillet noless.

[SurfaceUnits]

I think the ALMS has bigger fish to fry at the moment.
On an electric skillet noless.
dazz y dey brought in the new talent...an fishes is delicious..but I'm headed out for ribfest

[JohnHKart]

It's also official......by 2011 nobody will GAF.


Was trying to stay awake last night watching Sears Point and remarked...oh god weve got two plus more seasons of these sboxes... They have got to come up with a better looking car than this.

John

[Insomniac]

You're right. It wouldn't work. It would be like a fast-cornering ALMS P2 Porsche trying to get past an ALMS P1 Audi which is faster on the straight and could then blow by even if the Porsche made the pass in the turn. The P2 Porsche could never challenge for an overall victory.

Oh, wait, I guess it can!

The question is whether you are too young to remember when cars that were better in the turns raced against cars that were better on the straight because the cars were different or have just forgotten those days. The racing HAS gotten boring as the cars all became clones. In ACO/ALMS, you still get racing the old fashioned way.

The superspeedway races (just two of them, right?) would be an issue, because the DP01 would have way too much downforce/drag but on the other ovals, the IRL uses road course wings, and the crapwagons were slower at Milwaukee than the Lolas, which appear to be pretty much the same overall downforce/lap time spec. as the DP01, running it's normal level of boost. That's the great thing about turbos, you can reduce the boost to reduce power and attain equivalency, and you can turn it back up to the level where you've developed the engine to attain equivalency. You just can't turn it above what it's been developed for without doing more development.

It would have made for a great season.

I'm not too young to remember. But that was a different time before aerodynamics became the dominant piece of car performance. Why can't F1 cars which are all different between teams with a variety of engines get past other cars even when they are clearly faster? OWR cars are not the same thing as a prototype car. Do you think that a DP01 will be able to get on the rear wing of a crapwagon, and then pass it in the turns?

Things were a lot different 10-15 years ago. You couldn't set up a car to be nearly perfect around the entire track. You actually had to compromise. And different teams/drivers compromised on different parts of the track. Throw in all the manufacturers and you had a lot of variety. There wasn't as much of an emphasis on aerodynamics because bigger gains were being made by the engines and tires. And the 24/7 wind tunnel days and advanced computer modeling were a bit away.

[miatanut]

I'm not too young to remember. But that was a different time before aerodynamics became the dominant piece of car performance. Why can't F1 cars which are all different between teams with a variety of engines get past other cars even when they are clearly faster? OWR cars are not the same thing as a prototype car. Do you think that a DP01 will be able to get on the rear wing of a crapwagon, and then pass it in the turns?

Things were a lot different 10-15 years ago. You couldn't set up a car to be nearly perfect around the entire track. You actually had to compromise. And different teams/drivers compromised on different parts of the track. Throw in all the manufacturers and you had a lot of variety. There wasn't as much of an emphasis on aerodynamics because bigger gains were being made by the engines and tires. And the 24/7 wind tunnel days and advanced computer modeling were a bit away.

The prototypes do seem to have a higher percentage of their downforce from the undertray, leaving cleaner air for the following car, but I think F1 has had the most passing in several years, due to the elimination of traction control allowing drivers to make mistakes. With spec cars from two totally different specs, there would be a lot more.

We got more passing when the DP01 made an incremental reduction in turbulence for the trailing car. That would favor a crapwagon following a DP01, while a DP01 following a crapwagon would have a lot of dirty air to contend with. On the other hand, a crapwagon would leave a bigger "hole" in the air, which a DP01 could use for a draft in some cases, and the DP01's better grip could allow it to walk away from a crapwagon on a fast sweeper.

To have a fair competition, the DP01 would certainly have needed to be allowed a boost level what would give it a lower lap time on a sim, to allow for the difficulty of passing and make the two cars equal in the real world situation of a race.

It would have made for a very interesting season.

[SurfaceUnits]

The gomeratti think so:



Originally Posted by THE BEAR
I turned the Belle Isle thing on with 85 (?) laps complete...and that little timer running in the upper corner which said there were four minutes and change to go. The announcer was saying "now that this is a timed race..." The McDonalds car was out front, the course was a Jersey Barrier lined canyon with no passing areas (not that there was any competition for spots in any event), and there were no fans in sight anywhere.
I thought, this looks like a CART race. And i promptly shut it off.
That's it for me. Maybe the 500 next year, but i'm done with the IRL/ICS.
Bring on the Outlaws, maybe the Silver Crowns and the local modifieds. I want to see RACING.

[Don Quixote]

:laugh: circling the drain.

[ChampcarShark]

Quote:
Originally Posted by THE BEAR
I turned the Belle Isle thing on with 85 (?) laps complete...and that little timer running in the upper corner which said there were four minutes and change to go. The announcer was saying "now that this is a timed race..." The McDonalds car was out front, the course was a Jersey Barrier lined canyon with no passing areas (not that there was any competition for spots in any event), and there were no fans in sight anywhere.
I thought, this looks like a CART race. And i promptly shut it off.
That's it for me. Maybe the 500 next year, but i'm done with the IRL/ICS.
Bring on the Outlaws, maybe the Silver Crowns and the local modifieds. I want to see RACING.


I have never been so happy to attend my local racetrack to see the foundation of the vision -- Spints & Modifieds

The great visionary is right forget about the irl go to your local track for REAL open wheel race action.

[opinionated ow]

The great visionary is right forget about the irl go to your local track for REAL open wheel race action.

Sad thing is he is right. I could care less that sprints and midgets are 1920s technology; some fast, cheap, wheel to wheel entertainment makes an enjoyable Saturday night. The smell of methanol, screaming 4s (in the midgets), bellowing V8s (that actually sound good-not like V8 Supercar, IRL or NASCAR), 1000hp in a car weighing about 550kg. Give me a full field of 24 sprints or midgets, a nice moist, grippy track and I'll be grinning like a shot fox.

[Andrew Longman]

The sad thing is NASCAR and real estate values are closing them all. New Egypt and Williams Grove are my closest tracks and they are a 2-3 hour drive.

[opinionated ow]

The sad thing is NASCAR and real estate values are closing them all. New Egypt and Williams Grove are my closest tracks and they are a 2-3 hour drive.

And I believe they closed down Wall Township! As long as Oswego and Syracuse are still used; I have plans to get to both the Budweiser Classic and the (Insert Sponsor) 200 at the Moody Mile.

[Mary]

Sorry, blast from the past here who can't resist jumping into this. (I used to post regularly beginning with .raci, the moving to SpeedNet, Speedcenter, SeventhGear, before I went into rehab).

Stu, I am an "archived" Champcar enthusiast, and a Tony George-hater. I simply cannot abide the IRL. I don't give a (&%#(%&#( what they drive, where they drive, how they drive, who is driving in it, as long as Tony George and the "vision" are running (ruining) open wheel racing in this country, I won't be watching it.

I come here periodically just in case he's slipped on a banana peel.

I've never blamed the drivers who left CART to go there, or even the team owners--this is their livelihood and they need to be able to earn a living. However, I'm a fan; I have no vested interest in this and I find the whole idea of the IRL utterly repulsive.

In 1994 if Tony George had said that he was born to run American open wheel, and since they wouldn't let him buy it (back in the day) he was going to drive them out of business and take over the ruins--just because he was rich and could--I would have stuck with CART a long time, but probably would be watching the IRL today. I likely would have drifted over when most of my favorite teams and drivers defected. I'd be on the gomer's board pushing for a version of CART II. However, gutless Tony decided to hide behind his warped "vision" to justify the carnage. I will always be offended by this and will never accept it.

When the reunificaiton happened, I thought for a few days that I might change my mind. However, as it is now there is nothing to draw me in. They need to fix it and then they need to beg. Frankly, I don't expect either to happen.

It is offensive that they are longing to become a 2nd rate version of what they trashed us over liking in the first place--road racing, foreign drivers, technology, etc. Now the hypocritical &*%(&@(&* think these things are good? I'm not supposed to be offended? I'm supposed to get over it and watch this "great" new series? :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

Maybe I'll tune in again after all the things they say they now want happen, and after Tony George becomes an emeritus fool rather than an active fool, but I just don't see it happening before then. Hopefully, I won't get so po'ed with Formula 1 that I will have to give up racing entirely.

BTW, Stu, there is a cure for Cleveland Browns-itis--MOVE! I did, a long time ago; I am largely cured and I had a bad, bad, case. It is sooooooooooo nice to live in the city of the reigning Super Bowl Champions!

We stomped them out!!!!

Mary

[Cam]

I think I am in love. :eek: :thumbup: :)

[Sean Malone]

BTW, Stu, there is a cure for Cleveland Browns-itis--MOVE! I did, a long time ago; I am largely cured and I had a bad, bad, case. It is sooooooooooo nice to live in the city of the reigning Super Bowl Champions!

We stomped them out!!!!

Mary

You moved to Jersey? ;)

[Mary]

You moved to Jersey? ;)

Touche! Naw, but we still love 'em! Closer than decades of futility in CLE.

Mary

[pchall]

And I believe they closed down Wall Township! As long as Oswego and Syracuse are still used; I have plans to get to both the Budweiser Classic and the (Insert Sponsor) 200 at the Moody Mile.

The first motorsports event I went to in WI when I moved up there late last decade was a midget show at Hales Corners Speedway. The next thing I heard about that nice 1/3 mile dirt oval was that it was sold to become part of the parking lot for a Menard's store. Glad I made it there before it became unused parking and an out lot for some fast food chain. :flame:

[Michaelhatesfans]

I think I am in love. :eek: :thumbup: :)

Um... Oh, never mind.

:rofl:

[miatanut]

Sorry, blast from the past here who can't resist jumping into this. (I used to post regularly beginning with .raci, the moving to SpeedNet, Speedcenter, SeventhGear, before I went into rehab).

Stu, I am an "archived" Champcar enthusiast, and a Tony George-hater. I simply cannot abide the IRL. I don't give a (&%#(%&#( what they drive, where they drive, how they drive, who is driving in it, as long as Tony George and the "vision" are running (ruining) open wheel racing in this country, I won't be watching it.

I come here periodically just in case he's slipped on a banana peel.

I've never blamed the drivers who left CART to go there, or even the team owners--this is their livelihood and they need to be able to earn a living. However, I'm a fan; I have no vested interest in this and I find the whole idea of the IRL utterly repulsive.

In 1994 if Tony George had said that he was born to run American open wheel, and since they wouldn't let him buy it (back in the day) he was going to drive them out of business and take over the ruins--just because he was rich and could--I would have stuck with CART a long time, but probably would be watching the IRL today. I likely would have drifted over when most of my favorite teams and drivers defected. I'd be on the gomer's board pushing for a version of CART II. However, gutless Tony decided to hide behind his warped "vision" to justify the carnage. I will always be offended by this and will never accept it.

When the reunificaiton happened, I thought for a few days that I might change my mind. However, as it is now there is nothing to draw me in. They need to fix it and then they need to beg. Frankly, I don't expect either to happen.

It is offensive that they are longing to become a 2nd rate version of what they trashed us over liking in the first place--road racing, foreign drivers, technology, etc. Now the hypocritical &*%(&@(&* think these things are good? I'm not supposed to be offended? I'm supposed to get over it and watch this "great" new series? :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

Maybe I'll tune in again after all the things they say they now want happen, and after Tony George becomes an emeritus fool rather than an active fool, but I just don't see it happening before then. Hopefully, I won't get so po'ed with Formula 1 that I will have to give up racing entirely.

Mary

:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:

[Andrew Longman]

And I believe they closed down Wall Township! As long as Oswego and Syracuse are still used; I have plans to get to both the Budweiser Classic and the (Insert Sponsor) 200 at the Moody Mile.

Wall closed but Evernham is trying to buy it and keep it open. That would be it's third life. I just don't see it working.

[Kiwifan]

Wondered what happened to you Mary. Glad you are ok. What a family we had way back then before it all got crazy, we used to talk about the racing and not the clowns running or ruining it. :(

Take care and watch out for Cam. ;)

Rusty.