AMA road racing to be neutered

[oddlycalm]

The series that produced the riders that account for 15 MotoGP world championships in the last 30yrs is set to be neutered. And with it any interest in what remains of US motorcycle road racing.

The AMA has sold the rights to their motorcycle road racing to Daytona Motorsports. The AMA is a club and like AAA and USAC it was never able to manage the series well so theoretically this should have been good.

Unfortunately, the mototainment suits at Daytona Mortorsports want to neuter the racing. Liter class superbikes would be replaced by 600cc "Daytona Superbikes" and Supersports would be replaced by what are essentially stock bike classes. It's the same old "the fans won't know the difference" refrain. :thumdown: :yuck:

Right, because we all know every audience is as stupid and the ones that watch NASCAR.:gomer:

Daytona Motorsport to castrate AMA road racing (http://www.superbikeplanet.com/2008/Apr/080415x.htm)

Interview with Suzuki's Mel Harris (http://www.superbikeplanet.com/2008/Apr/080415-brea.htm)

Matt Mladin speaks up (http://www.cyclenews.com/ShowStory.asp?HeadlineID=12287)

The argument seems to be that the new formula would be better at Daytona, and never mind the rest of the races. Since the tire issues at Daytona have been resolved I don't see any reason to cripple the series to address something no longer an issue.

oc

[opinionated ow]

woah...wtf!

[Ankf00]

can't someone go all paki on France Inc. HQ?

[extramundane]

In Roger We Trust. :gomer:

[DagoFast]

A big :thumbup: to Mladin. He's got balls off the track as well as on.

[emjaya]

CEO Roger Edmondson: "we had one of them (who looked) at our NASCAR genes and wondered if we were going to make them put carburetors on their bikes because there are carburetors on NASCAR cars. That made me realize that the level of anxiety was a lot higher than I thought."

:rofl:

[cameraman]

If three or four of the Japanese manufacturers tell Roger to go to hell, that will end this really stupid idea.

[extramundane]

If three or four of the Japanese manufacturers tell Roger to go to hell, that will end this really stupid idea.

Will it? Remember, this is the guy who claimed that American sportscar fans can't relate to Ferraris and Porsches as he proceeded to roll out DPs and tube-frame RX8s.

I wouldn't be half surprised to see him stick a Briggs & Stratton on a Schwinn and call it the future of American Motorcycle Racing.

[Gnam]

Bike of Tomorrow :thumdown:

http://img227.imageshack.us/img227/7088/canamspydermt8.jpg



[Edmondson] continued, "I made it clear that we are not in the motorcycle business. We're in the entertainment business...
Oh, that's fine then. :yuck:

[cameraman]

Will it? Remember, this is the guy who claimed that American sportscar fans can't relate to Ferraris and Porsches as he proceeded to roll out DPs and tube-frame RX8s.

Yeah but at the last Grand Am race 25% of the field was Porsche GT3s and three of the DPs have Porsche engines. It isn't as though Porsche abandoned Grand Am. If Honda, Kawasaki, Suzuki and Yamaha said that they would abandon the 600 class if the 1000 was killed then Roger would have zero bikes at his races.

[The Doctor]

The problem isn't that there wouldn't be any bikes... there wouldn't be any factory bikes. And for the AMA, moreso than even CART or the IRL, the manufacturers pay for everything. All the race weekends? Sponsored by the manufacturers. All the top riders? Paid for by manufacturers. All the TV commercials? Manufacturers. You take those dollars away, you don't have a series. I know that DMG want to bring in sponsor dollars and bring in fans and blah blah blah, but they're putting at risk all of that. They claim they want to make the riders the starts, but people know the riders because the factories pay for them and the factories put their faces out there and the fans like the guys who ride their favorite brand's bike.

The OEMs have said repeatedly to DMG that they have to continue to push the "win on Sunday, sell on Monday" approach to the series by selling their most popular, highest powered bikes. The 1000s. And the only thing DMG has listened to is "win on Sunday, sell on Monday" and they've forgotten everything else. In the Edmonson interview from Infineon, he claims that in order to put more emphasis on that sales connection and the riders he wants to have three riders on the podium and only two bikes down in victory circle. The winning race bike, and the equivalent street bike. Awesome. Except that if you're pushing 600 Daytona Superbikes, no one's going to give a crap.

At least it looks like Spies will get into MotoGP next year, and get away from this death spiral.

[emjaya]

Interview with Suzuki's Mel Harris (http://www.superbikeplanet.com/2008/Apr/080415-brea.htm)



From the odd ones link.

Mel Harris: As a manufacturer, that's not what we want to do. I race to sell product. My success over the last few years has propelled Suzuki up to the top sportbike-selling company among the Japanese manufacturers. So what I win with on Sunday, I sell during the week. Now. My 1000s are what we showcase. All the manufacturers want to showcase their open liter bike, and it's great competition between all of us manufacturers. Now, if we're going to go out there and just showcase our 600s, what are we going to do with the other bikes that we have to sell in the line, too? I mean, with the 1000s, we can sell - then we race the 600s, that's what we're selling. It's very competitive between the four manufacturers on those models. So it was very disappointing to be told, "This is the format that we're looking at," and being told - because I asked over three times, "What about the 1000s?" - and I was told all three times, there was no 1000s in their vision.

[pchall]

Typical ISC/NASCRAP move. Screw something up just to meet their limited needs during Speed Weeks. :shakehead

[chop456]

Yeah, but there will be lots of them and they'll be affordable. :gomer::gomer::gomer:

[FCYTravis]

Suzuki's factory team has pretty much wiped the floor with everyone in the series since 2005, and grids are down from 40+ in 2005 to barely 20 today - of which several are basically gridfiller.

I mean, might as well try something different because the rules package now ain't working for ****. Just look at it comparison to MotoGP or WSBK. It's a joke.

Whether one really needs to go down to 600cc, though, is very questionable. Why not just fix the 1000cc formula? Or just adopt WSBK rules straight over? I'm not super-familiar with motorcycle racing but that would seem to be a good fit.

And coming from Grand-Am, the part where Edmondson basically came up with all this stuff in private and then drops it on the teams... isn't shocking :shakehead

[Chaos]

Suzuki's factory team has pretty much wiped the floor with everyone in the series since 2005, and grids are down from 40+ in 2005 to barely 20 today - of which several are basically gridfiller.

While I understand your point, whose fault is it that no one can catch Yosh Suzuki? Honda and Yamaha have world class MotoGP programs. Why aren't they better in Superbike style racing?

[stroker]

I'm sure to be in the minority on this, but I can't get too worked up about it. The 1000cc bikes are basically tire shredders that are too fast for most of the courses in the country. I don't see where their additional speed (or difficulty to ride) offsets the enormous additional cost (which results in the puny grids per Travis). If you want a 1000cc class, the only one I could go for would be some sort of Superstock (strip the street gear, put on pipes and a FI chip) rules package so it would at least be in the spirit of Race On Sunday/Sell On Monday, but I still think the long term interest of the sport is in the 600cc bikes.

[opinionated ow]

I'm sure to be in the minority on this, but I can't get too worked up about it. The 1000cc bikes are basically tire shredders that are too fast for most of the courses in the country. I don't see where their additional speed (or difficulty to ride) offsets the enormous additional cost (which results in the puny grids per Travis). If you want a 1000cc class, the only one I could go for would be some sort of Superstock (strip the street gear, put on pipes and a FI chip) rules package so it would at least be in the spirit of Race On Sunday/Sell On Monday, but I still think the long term interest of the sport is in the 600cc bikes.

i'd say you are pretty much on your own.

[Sean O'Gorman]

Yeah you jackass, its only real racin' if the series has declining benefits to amanufacturer. :gomer: :gomer:

Let the manufacturers threaten to leave. At least one will stick around to win every race, and then someone will come back to knock them off. How else are they going to advertise the performance of their bikes?

[extramundane]

Let the manufacturers threaten to leave. At least one will stick around to win every race, and then someone will come back to knock them off. How else are they going to advertise the performance of their bikes?

Yep, that model worked out swimmingly for CART/Champ Car. With RogerE at the helm, failure is UNPOSSIBLE.

[Sean O'Gorman]

Auto manufacturers have a much broader range of outlets to advertise their products. That isn't the case with sportbikes.

[Ankf00]

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f313/Becker5280/weaksauce.jpg


and c'mon guys, CSU School of Business has put out such visionaries as... well, as... well, I guess O'Gorman's the first. :thumbup: oh well, he'll nascarify it for the O'Gormans of the world, they'll watch intently while eating their affordable, made to spec McRib sammiches, and in 3-5 years a real open liter series will pop up to fill the need paid for by the big 4

[Sean O'Gorman]

Yeah, they should've just stuck with status quo; clearly it was working if the AMA sold off the series

[cameraman]

The manufacturers are bankrolling the series. The series absolutely has problems with <18 bike grids being very high on the list. But for Roger to just pull a complete redesign of all bike racing out of his ass and tell the manufacturers "this is the way it will be" is ridiculous. He is pulling the carpet out from under their marketing plans. You don't just make those things up on the back of a napkin.

[Sean O'Gorman]

I don't care enough one way or another since I don't watch AMA, but I'm sure no matter what they said, you guys wouldn't be happy.

[cameraman]

I don't care enough one way or another since I don't watch AMA yet you are all over this thread:rolleyes::shakehead

[DagoFast]

Suzuki's factory team has pretty much wiped the floor with everyone in the series since 2005, and grids are down from 40+ in 2005 to barely 20 today - of which several are basically gridfiller.

I mean, might as well try something different because the rules package now ain't working for ****. Just look at it comparison to MotoGP or WSBK. It's a joke.

Whether one really needs to go down to 600cc, though, is very questionable. Why not just fix the 1000cc formula? Or just adopt WSBK rules straight over? I'm not super-familiar with motorcycle racing but that would seem to be a good fit.

And coming from Grand-Am, the part where Edmondson basically came up with all this stuff in private and then drops it on the teams... isn't shocking :shakehead

Jeebus. Have you learned nothing from history?

WTF makes you think Yosh Suzuki wouldn't wipe up the floor with 600's? Or bicycle framed Briggs & Strattons?

If Toeknees little 13 year adventure has proved anything (besides a moron with deep pockets is more destructive than uncontrolled nuclear fission) its that the best teams ALWAYS rise to the top.

Theres nothing WRONG with the AMA formula. The "failure" rests solely at the feet of every other team that can't keep up. And that is simply and purely the whole point of racing.

This PT Barnum like need to come up with Orwellian "fixes" to "level" the playing field help nothing and in fact are a direct contravention to the fu*@!*g point of holding a race meet in the first place.

If you truly don't get it, please log off, go home and polish all your "participant" trophies.

[cameraman]

Theres nothing WRONG with the AMA formula.

I wouldn't go that far but dropping the 1000's sure ain't the way to fix anything.

[EVL29]

I'm sure to be in the minority on this, but I can't get too worked up about it. The 1000cc bikes are basically tire shredders that are too fast for most of the courses in the country. I don't see where their additional speed (or difficulty to ride) offsets the enormous additional cost (which results in the puny grids per Travis). If you want a 1000cc class, the only one I could go for would be some sort of Superstock (strip the street gear, put on pipes and a FI chip) rules package so it would at least be in the spirit of Race On Sunday/Sell On Monday, but I still think the long term interest of the sport is in the 600cc bikes.

The funny thing is,the AMA and the Manufacturers have already done that. They came up with a revised format for the 2009 season that does away with Superstock and brings Superbikes closer to stock,with some mods allowed.

The DMG jacktards are trying to solve a problem that's already been solved.

And going to 600s is only about make the bikes slow enough for infield 'road courses'. Don't be at all surprised if the 2009 DMG schedule has Phoenix and Joliet on the schedule. New markets and all.

And as far as calling them Daytona Superbikes....hey Rog,eat a *****.http://www.runemasterstudios.com/graemlins/images/thumbsdown.gif

[Sean O'Gorman]

And as far as calling them Daytona Superbikes....hey Rog,eat a *****.http://www.runemasterstudios.com/graemlins/images/thumbsdown.gif

http://z.about.com/d/motorcycles/1/7/T/C/-/-/Bubble_oddity.jpg

[extramundane]

http://z.about.com/d/motorcycles/1/7/T/C/-/-/Bubble_oddity.jpg

Awesome! They finally came up with something that can run in Daytona Prototype and Daytona Superbike at the same time! Cost savings w00t! :gomer:

[jcollins28]

Whats next Lucky dog rule as well? FNASCAR!!!:shakehead

[FCYTravis]

While I understand your point, whose fault is it that no one can catch Yosh Suzuki? Honda and Yamaha have world class MotoGP programs. Why aren't they better in Superbike style racing?
Because they don't want to spend the money on it. Simple as that. There's no way to force them to spend that money, either.

When most of the factories get tired of blowing each other off, and they've blown all the privateers off the grid, you end up with pretty much what you've got in the AMA right now - complete single-team dominance of... nobody, really.

The numbers don't lie. The grids have been cut in half in four years. That's a shocking decline.

The privateers don't have the money to compete with Yosh Suzuki, and the other factories don't want to spend the money. End result, the series does a classic factory-racing death spiral.

[FCYTravis]

WTF makes you think Yosh Suzuki wouldn't wipe up the floor with 600's? Or bicycle framed Briggs & Strattons?
There is good reason to think that with more restricted equipment, that the "little guy" has more opportunity to engineer their way to competitive finishes and victories. The cream does rise to the top, as you said, but the privateers at least have a hope and prayer of keeping up.

See also: Grand-Am. Ganassi's still the team to beat, but first Wayne Taylor and then Bob Stallings showed the world that they're not unbeatable.


Theres nothing WRONG with the AMA formula. The "failure" rests solely at the feet of every other team that can't keep up. And that is simply and purely the whole point of racing.
If one team can basically buy every single win for four or five years in a row, all the other people spending money to race tend to decide that they're wasting their money, and leave that one team racing around by itself. Most of the fans aren't particularly entertained by "races" that aren't, and leave. Then you end up with the AMA circa 2008 - empty grids and empty grandstands, with nobody watching on TV.

You can't force team owners to spend factory-type money (that they don't have) in an effort to "keep up" with a hyper-dollar factory team. You can call them cowards or lame or failures, but they don't really care what you think, and the end result won't change. They need to find sponsorship, and to find sponsorship they've got to be remotely competitive. If they don't see even a glimmer of hope that they can claw their way to competitiveness, they're not going to keep investing in the series. In a series where one team has won 43 out of the last 44 races... essentially, nobody else is competitive. There's no incentive for anyone to race in AMA Superbike.

So the factory team gets to claim endless hollow meaningless "victories" against effectively no competition, while the people who came to see a race vacate the premises.

See also: ALMS GT1. OMG, Corvette wins again! And again! And again! And again! :shakehead

If the rules structure right now is A-OK, then clearly you think that ~20-bike (or less) grids (of which only half are really Superbikes) and dwindling attendance are the future of top-level motorcycle racing in America. That's depressing.

Whether Roger E's "Daytona Superbike" concept is the right way to go - I don't know. I've never agreed with him on everything, and going down to 600cc strikes me as unnecessary.

But things can't really get any worse for the series. Might as well try something different and see if it works.

[oddlycalm]

The funny thing is,the AMA and the Manufacturers have already done that. They came up with a revised format for the 2009 season that does away with Superstock and brings Superbikes closer to stock,with some mods allowed.

The DMG jacktards are trying to solve a problem that's already been solved.
Exactly right, it's been solved. Time to move forward.

Then there is the "Daytona Superbike" hog diarrhea. Calling a Supersport a Superbike is an insult to everyone from the fans to the teams. Tells you everything you need to know about these parasites. They don't even know enough to be embarrassed. I hope folks get organized and tell them to blow it out their tailpipe.
oc

[The Doctor]

Exactly right, it's been solved. Time to move forward.

Then there is the "Daytona Superbike" hog diarrhea. Calling a Supersport a Superbike is an insult to everyone from the fans to the teams. Tells you everything you need to know about these parasites. They don't even know enough to be embarrassed. I hope folks get organized and tell them to blow it out their tailpipe.
oc

'Soup posted the links to contact all of the promoters after so many people requested them, so hopefully enough fans will convince the promoters this isn't the way to go. And with no promoters, and no manufacturers.... well, hopefully DMG will re-evaluate the situation.

[oddlycalm]

Watching the World Superbike race in Utah today I had to wonder how they would explain to the track and TV audiences that a World Superbike was a liter class firebreather but the US "superbike" proposed by Daytona Motorsport would be an anemic 600. :shakehead :gomer:

oc

[extramundane]

Watching the World Superbike race in Utah today I had to wonder how they would explain to the track and TV audiences that a World Superbike was a liter class firebreather but the US "superbike" proposed by Daytona Motorsport would be an anemic 600. :shakehead :gomer:

oc

If DMG's current exploits are any indication, there won't be much of a track or TV audience in the first place, so problem solved! And I'm sure there will be some sort of official statement in which management declares that the average American motorcycle enthusiast can't really relate to a 1L bike.

[cameraman]

Here is how they did it last weekend.

The AMA races ran the full 4 mile course.
The FIM races ran the outer 3 mile course.

No time comparisons possible.

Second thing, Sunday's schedule went:

10:30 AM 11:30 AM RACE, AMA Supersport, 60K
12:00 PM 1:00 PM RACE 1, World Superbike
2:00 PM 3:00 PM RACE 2, AMA Superbike, 100K
3:30 PM 4:30 PM RACE 2, World Superbike

I'll be damned if over half the crowd didn't leave after the AMA Superbike race.:shakehead

[Sean O'Gorman]

Clearly proving that the average motorcycle enthusiast has discriminating tastes and would never accept a 600 on track. :shakehead

[cameraman]

Clearly proving that the average motorcycle enthusiast has discriminating tastes and would never accept a 600 on track. :shakehead
You are hellbent on showing yourself to be an idiot. The AMA bikes were liter class and the crowd knew who the drivers were and what they were riding. The part that left was the American flag waving, straight edge tattooed tards who didn't like the damn foreigners. They are nationalistic *******s but they sure as hell know the difference between a 600 & a 1000.

[oddlycalm]

Clearly proving that the average motorcycle enthusiast has discriminating tastes and would never accept a 600 on track. :shakehead
Your ignorance of the subject audience demonstrates that's a world you have no experience in. Very few casual fans at bike races Sean. Almost the diametric opposite of US auto racing fans in every way.

oc

[Sean O'Gorman]

I've been to at least 4 AMA races, it just seemed like alot of casual fans who were there because the motorcycles on track were like the ones they owned. Just my $0.02. :confused:

[Methanolandbrats]

I've been to at least 4 AMA races, it just seemed like alot of casual fans who were there because the motorcycles on track were like the ones they owned. Just my $0.02. :confused:

Nope. The bike crowd is very aware and involved with their machines. The "casual" ones are called organ donors.

[oddlycalm]

I've been to at least 4 AMA races, it just seemed like alot of casual fans who were there because the motorcycles on track were like the ones they owned. Just my $0.02. :confused: Actually, that's it in a nutshell, although I'm not sure casual is the way I'd describe them. Most are riding bikes that are very close to the bikes on the track. Bike mfg's have sold very slightly detuned versions of their racing bikes available to their customers, something that goes way back to the 60's with the British mfg's.

If the AMA series went to a 600 formula half the bikes in the parking lot would literally be able to slap on race tires and with a good rider beat the bikes on the track at a place like Miller where top speed matters. Everybody in the audience knows that which is why it wouldn't play and why only someone completely ignorant of motorcycle racing would even suggest it.

It would be as if all of us here were driving Porsche GT3's and BMW M3 GTR's and going to see 2 liter sedans called "Supercars" race. :gomer:

oc

[emjaya]

http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i305/emjaya/circuit5.jpg

[FCYTravis]

Everybody in the audience knows that which is why it wouldn't play and why only someone completely ignorant of motorcycle racing would even suggest it.
Then what will play? Obviously, the current series isn't doing it - the grids are one-half empty, one-half gridfiller, attendance and ratings are down and absent some major change, it sure looks like IMSA GTP circa 1993. Toilet bowl death spiral.

[stroker]

My $.02...

I started losing interest in Superbikes around 1985. Watching Wes Cooley & Freddie Spencer, etc. try to muscle ill-handling GS1000's and Z-1's (as compared to the down-on-power but heavy-on-handling Ducs and BMW's) around was fun. There was technological advancement in the hp and chassis development. Then everything came with a full fairing, and the manufacturer's pretty well figured out the handling and the hp curves continued to climb.

Now Yosh has 200+hp on their SuperSPORT bikes and they're only a few percentage points in lap times slower than SuperBIKES that cost exponentially more. The current Superbikes are simply a waste of money IMHO--they deliver a level of performance that is out of all proportion to their cost (sound like an AOW League anyone is familiar with?). As a result they've lost the privateers and the grids have dropped precipitously. As much as I appreciate the line of thinking that the performance of the machine has to be at the top of the pile to present a pinnacle of performance to the rider, the situation is killing the series.

I think I'd be happy with a Junior class based on the 500cc/650cc twins (why Suz/Hon/Yam haven't made a competitor to the Ninja 650 twin is frustrating, but I suppose it's based on lack of sales) and a Senior class based on virtually stock (pipes, tires and chip) 1000cc bikes (I suppose you could use an equivilency formula for BMW, Duc, etc.) otherwise currently known as SuperSTOCK. If you don't run a production-based class for the 1000's then run a full-tilt racing class for the 600's. Call it whatever you want, I honestly don't give a crap whether they're called Superbikes, Daytona Superbikes, MotoAmerica, whatever. They've reached the performance level that simply can't be maintained at most of the tracks in the country--either they shred the tires or the risk of falling off is simply too great at the speeds they're achieving.

The current Superstock 600's are running at approximately the same lap times as King Kenny did on his TZ750 at Daytona, and I don't remember anyone saying that was too slow. The Superbikes are running Road America as fast as the Can-Am cars ever did, and IMHO that's plenty frikkin' fast. There is a percentage of fans who insist on the class pushing the absolute performance envelope, and while I appreciate their point that demographic simply isn't numerous enough to support the series while it loses entrants (and fans due to the reduced grid sizes and lack of diversity and competition) due to the enormous costs associated with it. Not even the manufacturers appear to be interested in supporting that. I think they're insisting on ROI and relevancy, and I can't say I blame them at all. The pinnacle performance class is great for chest thumping but I don't see how it translates into enough sales for them to justify writing the check. If it's a case of dropping pinnacle performance for production-based bikes at the "top tier" of motorcycle roadracing, I'm perfectly happy with it.

Until then, the Historic races offer better spectating at far lower cost.

[cameraman]

I don't think anyone is saying that they should not make some changes in the class structure just that they should not totally drop liter bikes.

[FCYTravis]

There is a percentage of fans who insist on the class pushing the absolute performance envelope, and while I appreciate their point that demographic simply isn't numerous enough to support the series while it loses entrants (and fans due to the reduced grid sizes and lack of diversity and competition) due to the enormous costs associated with it.
Yes, and the other problem is that you can't keep pushing the performance envelope forever - you end up going beyond the limits of current road courses, for one. Motorcycle tracks have become neutered chicane-fests because the bikes are simply too crazy-fast for the circuits.

[Ankf00]

hate to break it you, but bikes by their very nature on chicane fests are still epic.


it's your grand-am crapotypes that can't quite handle the job.

[FCYTravis]

Chicane-fests suck, whether they're navigated by Champ Cars or sprint karts.

Exhibit A: The Festival Curves turned Portland from a flat-out funfest into a "watch everyone crash in Turn 1" cluster****.

[Andrew Longman]

So what did they think they were buying when they bought AMA? If they scrap so much of it, the value the manufacturers and fans bring to the series will be gone.

What's left but the schedule?

From a biz perspective, why not just start their own series?

[Indy]

Because they just want to weaken the sport outside of their own niche, so they can have a virtual monopoly in the U.S.

Die, NASCAR, die.

[Corner5]

In reality, France owns the Suntrust Moto-ST series. The teams get money from them too. The series was always paired with Grand-Am, but now they are running with AMA. That's where this is going I think.


The SunTrust MOTO-ST Series is organized and sanctioned by Professional Motorsports Productions (PMP) of Toronto, Ontario, Canada, and the Grand American Road Racing Association (Grand-Am), based in Daytona Beach, Fla., provides the series with administrative and commercial support. Learn more about MOTO-ST at www.moto-st.com .

I was at RA yesterday- its is a huge event.

[cameraman]

Even with the drop in interest in the AMA the race they just ran at Miller had a crowd far larger than the ALMS and Grand Am crowds combined.

[Chaos]

Even with the drop in interest in the AMA the race they just ran at Miller had a crowd far larger than the ALMS and Grand Am crowds combined.

WSBK was there too.

[cameraman]

True but the same crowd stats applied last year and the year before. The bike race has always outdrawn either of the car races.

[oddlycalm]

First and foremost is don't make up names like "daytona superbike" and apply them to lesser classes. If you want to drop the liter bikes then do it, just don't then call the 600's a superbike and insult the audience.

As far as the speed of the TZ750's go, that was 30yrs ago. They were fast in a straight line but handled like they had a ball joint in the middle of the frame because in terms of dynamic stiffness, they did. Hardly the standard to measure top tier racing against in 2008.

The TZ750 is an important part of the story though. It's one of the reasons we had large grids throughout the 70's and 80's. Yamaha was selling them for $10,000 to anyone with the money and a total of 521 were sold between 1977 and 1983. They were missing a few of the unobtanium pieces the factory bikes had, but they had more power than most people could handle so it made little difference. They were the Manx Norton / Matchless G50 of their generation; a production bike a good privateer could make the show with.

If affordable Yoshimura Suzukis were made available tomorrow to anyone who wanted one nobody would be bitching. What that argues for is tightening up the rules not scrapping the series. Take away the unfair advantages, or compensate for them, just like many other series do.

oc

[FCYTravis]

What would ensure that the bikes Yosh sold to privateers even remotely resembled their factory machinery?

You would have to implement... (gasp!) Grand-Am style restrictions on development, mandating that any new parts developed by a constructor would have to be made available on the open market before they could be used in a race.

I remember in 06, I think it was, the SunTrust team showed up to a race weekend with some new factory Riley-developed aero parts. When it rolled through tech, the officials flunked it because even though it had been approved, there weren't any available for other teams.

[opinionated ow]

What would ensure that the bikes Yosh sold to privateers even remotely resembled their factory machinery?

You would have to implement... (gasp!) Grand-Am style restrictions on development, mandating that any new parts developed by a constructor would have to be made available on the open market before they could be used in a race.

I remember in 06, I think it was, the SunTrust team showed up to a race weekend with some new factory Riley-developed aero parts. When it rolled through tech, the officials flunked it because even though it had been approved, there weren't any available for other teams.

BS. What total and utter bulls&$% rules grand am have if they ban an approved piece...:shakehead

fugly, stupid, slow, garbage racing. remind me, what is the appeal of it?

[Indy]

Funny thing. I just had this moment of clarity, or a mini-stroke, or something. For just a few seconds, I forgot everything that had transpired in racing over the last twenty years. And I read the last couple of posts and thought to myself, what the hell are they on about? Obviously, racing is about building the best machine.

Remember that? What a freaking shock to see the current state of affairs through innocent eyes again. :saywhat:






I think I am going to get back into tennis.

[cameraman]

Funny thing. I just had this moment of clarity, or a mini-stroke, or something. For just a few seconds, I forgot everything that had transpired in racing over the last twenty years. And I read the last couple of posts and thought to myself, what the hell are they on about? Obviously, racing is about building the best machine.

Remember that?

Yeah it was called Can Am and it went out of business when one car was faster than all the rest. Then we all we had to watch was Billy Jean King.

[Indy]

I have come to the conclusion that Americans simply do not deserve real racing. They are all either too dumb to understand it or too pussified to live with the fact that there is a winner and everyone else is a loser.

NASCAR and America -- they deserve one another.

[cameraman]

No the problem is people like you who demand that every team, chassis and engine manufacturer needs to spend hundreds of millions of their dollars every year to field a car so you can watch an ultimate race. And unless those other people are willing to spend multiple billions you whine that isn't racing. You are the one who doesn't deserve to watch racing.

[Sean O'Gorman]

Racing isn't about the best machine. :rolleyes:

[FCYTravis]

Racing is about seeing who crosses under the checkered flag first given a specified set of rules as to what sort of machinery can be used.

There are not enough team owners, manufacturers and interested sponsors willing to fund money-is-no-object racing in the United States that's not named NASCAR.

Will that change? Sure, it always does. Things go around in cycles. The big money that's in NASCAR now was in IMSA GTP, Trans-Am, Can-Am and CART at one time or another.

But if the only kind of racing a person is interested is that money-no-object, spend-until-you-explode style of racing, I suggest that that person is setting him/herself up for perpetual disappointment.

Such series generally self-implode after 5 or 10 years because even really really really really rich people end up deciding they've spent too much.

[Indy]

If there is no money to spend, then I am happy seeing cheap, but legitimate, racing. To me, sanctioning bodies are sort of like the government. Sure, it makes sense to give someone total control from the efficiency point of view, but the temptation to mess with the results is just too great. I guess you could say I am a racing libertarian. Just write some reasonable rules and let the teams do the rest. If the sanctioning bodies would commit to staying lean and mean, and the they were wise enough not to make the rules such that they demand huge expenditures, then when times are bad they could just let the chips fall where they may, money wise.

It seems to me that the internet offers an amazing opportunity to get away from the massive, expensive TV productions that have locked series into high dollar budgets. The time will come when someone realizes this and we will all be watching on the net, and the "ratings" will be higher than anything on television.

[oddlycalm]

What would ensure that the bikes Yosh sold to privateers even remotely resembled their factory machinery?

You would have to implement... (gasp!) Grand-Am style restrictions on development, mandating that any new parts developed by a constructor would have to be made available on the open market before they could be used in a race.
Homologation rules can be written any way they like. They can also do whatever they want regarding development restrictions. There is a wide range of actions that would result in a perfectly workable series.

Instead they want to wipe out one class entirely and call the other something it's not. :thumdown: Leave it to douchebags from Flawduh. :shakehead

Grand Am fails from the get go because of the neutered 60's technology specs it starts with that mandates ugly anachronistic cars. Even production bike racing doesn't suffer the same fate as DP because production bikes are neither ugly, hoeplessly slow nor is the technology decades out of date. There is no racing analog for the clown cars that are DP.

oc

[FCYTravis]

1960s technology specs?

Seriously, that shows you're either ignorant or intentionally bloviating.

Show me the 1960s race car that had carbon bodywork, full-sequential shift-without-lift gearbox, electronic engine management/fuel injection, data acquisition/telemetry, radials, pushrod-actuated inboard suspension on all four wheels, etc. etc. etc.

Yes, they use a tube-frame chassis. So what? It's sure as hell not a 1960s tube-frame chassis design.

Do you think Champ Car, F1 and the IRL are stuck in the 1980s because they still haven't progressed beyond the outdated, 25-year-old carbon fiber monocoque chassis? Where's the hyper-unobtanium carapace? Where's the space-tech invisible structure made of 0.000001 mm plastitanium fibers?

[Indy]

Do you think Champ Car, F1 and the IRL are stuck in the 1980s because they still haven't progressed beyond the outdated, 25-year-old carbon fiber monocoque chassis? Where's the hyper-unobtanium carapace? Where's the space-tech invisible structure made of 0.000001 mm plastitanium fibers?

Yes! That is why Indy Car sucks, Champ Car sucked, and F1 is getting worse by the year. They are, were, or are becoming PHONEY.

[Sean O'Gorman]

No, you're missing the point of racing.

[FCYTravis]

"Faster, faster, faster" is not going to be the future paradigm of racing. Not with oil at $140 a barrel.

I won't be surprised to see a major series adopt a Group C-style fuel economy standard for its next-generation ruleset. It makes way too much sense not to.

Of course, the problem is that integrating next-generation technology into race cars (hybrid drivelines in particular) is an expensive, highly technical proposition that will demand major investments that almost no one except factories can afford.

[Indy]

No, you're missing the point of racing.

Explain it to me.

[Sean O'Gorman]

If you've seen all the effort that goes into being a successful racing operation, in everything from F1 to SCCA road racing, and still feel that its all phony, then you are no different than people who say racing is just cars going around in circles.

[Methanolandbrats]

Racing isn't about the best machine. :rolleyes: That is true. Motor racing is the synergy of man AND machine. The faster the machine laps the circuit, the harder it is to drive and the cost goes up. On one end of the spectrum, many fans are delighted with inexpensive, slow, relatively easy to drive fields of cars and "close racing". At the other end of the spectrum some fans enjoy the "on the limit" combination of rare driver ability and technology that results in new lap records. After having lived through CanAm, IMSA GTP, decades of innovation at Indy and Turbo F1, I am in the second group. I have no idea if this has anything to do with this thread, it's just my observation.

[Sean O'Gorman]

My belief has always been, that as a fan, I don't know what the limit is. If the racing is out there and people are paying millions of dollars to race in a certain series, it must be tough.

[emjaya]

Back on topic, sort of, Mat Mladin has expressed a desire to run the Australian Superbike Comp next year, which may or may not show what he will be doing. :\

[oddlycalm]

Back on topic, sort of, Mat Mladin has expressed a desire to run the Australian Superbike Comp next year, which may or may not show what he will be doing. :\
Not surprising. I'm sure that anyone that has the option to dive over the side and land somewhere interesting will be doing it in short order. Regardless of how this turns out it doesn't look good for the short term.

I'll be sorry if he's gone. He's a great rider and I've really enjoyed watching him race over the years. Some epic battles. No motoring around and conserving the tires for Mladin. :thumbup:

oc

[opinionated ow]

Tell me, what was the final decision? Are superbikes still superbikes in the USA?

[The Doctor]

Tell me, what was the final decision? Are superbikes still superbikes in the USA?

Not yet decided. They said there would be three classes, Factory Superbike with kinda sorta but not really SBK rules, American Superbike with 1000s but a single tire supplier, homologated parts, and limited testing, and the Daytona Superbikes with the aforementioned 600 superbikes. But the factories haven't yet decided what they're going to do, so it's not clear if the Factory Superbike class will even exist or if there will be a second, manufacturer run series that would probably end up pulling a majority of the promoters with it since the factories spend big money at most of the events.

[cameraman]

Is there some kind of secret contest for who can damage a racing series the most?

You have Tony George in open wheel
the AMA in bikes
and BMW-Oracle in yachting

Is there a prize for most damage done in the shortest time?

:flame:

[oddlycalm]

Tell me, what was the final decision? Are superbikes still superbikes in the USA?
Below is an acticle saying they are going to call a 600cc supersport a daytona superbike. Twin cylinder bikes will be allowed larger displacement engine ranging from 850cc (Ducati 848), 1000cc (Aprilla & Ducati S4R) 1125cc (Buell) and 1200c (BMW H2) depending on what kind of deal was cut and what kind of sexual favor offered. For 2010 there will be a Vespa w/ a 2 liter engine allowed... :D

2009 tech specs (http://www.roadracingworld.com/news/article/?article=33334)

Personally, I was in favor of keeping the bike formula the same and instead just modifying the riders to achieve performance parity...:D Apparently Spies and Mladin objected. :confused:

oc

[The Doctor]

Tada! New superbike series... but a stupid name. Needs more BPTCCWSPBF.

http://www.superbikeplanet.com/2008/Sep/080910ussb.htm


The USSBSM Championship is being designed to carry on America's tradition, spanning more than two decades, of world-class superbike racing that showcases the nation's best riders on the best motorcycles in the country. The premier class, U.S. Super Bike, will invite teams running the highly developed, factory-backed, fan-favorite racing motorcycles (1,000cc fours and larger-displacement twins) that have long been the basis for superbike racing. The inaugural USSB series will include U.S. Sport Bike, a 600cc category similar to the World Supersport Championship and others.

And of course, the all important PR FAQ...

http://www.superbikeplanet.com/2008/Sep/080910ussbfaq.htm

[cameraman]

That looks reasonable.

What did I miss:rolleyes:

[pchall]

Well, its nice that somebody can stick a couple of fingers up NASCRAP's nose and make a stand for real racing:


"We initiated USSB because next year it will offer the only racing series in America for unrestrained factory superbikes and their teams, as well as those who aspire to join their ranks and compete with them," said MIC President Tim Buche. "We recognize the strong support for this level of racing, among enthusiasts, among manufacturers and among riders. With the other series set to abandon superbikes as we've come to know them, USSB will fill that void."


and


"This is America, a big country with a big motorcycle market that deserves a world-class championship with full-on factory bikes raced by star riders," said Ty van Hooydonk, USSB managing director. "The USSB Championship is our answer. We want to steer away from engine restrictors, away from mandated power-to-weight ratios, spec tires and spec ECUs. We want to set the stage for racing teams to compete, on the track, in the R&D shops, in the way they develop their bikes and help develop production bikes, in how they develop their engineering staffs and crews, and their riders, too. Let them do what they do best and go racing."

[stroker]

Tada! New superbike series... but a stupid name. Needs more BPTCCWSPBF.

http://www.superbikeplanet.com/2008/Sep/080910ussb.htm



And of course, the all important PR FAQ...

http://www.superbikeplanet.com/2008/Sep/080910ussbfaq.htm

It'll go belly up in no time, unless all the manufacturers want to pony up the big bucks.

Now, if they wanted to specify the bikes are BOX STOCK (even the tires) and then spend all that money developing team talent, that might be cool...

[The Doctor]

It'll go belly up in no time, unless all the manufacturers want to pony up the big bucks.

Now, if they wanted to specify the bikes are BOX STOCK (even the tires) and then spend all that money developing team talent, that might be cool...

The manufacturers already spent the majority of the money sponsoring the events, promoting the teams and riders commercially, etc. so on and so forth. I think they probably view this as spending little more than they already were, with the aim of decreasing costs for the manufacturers in the long-term. As they are able to move towards a globalized superbike standard, they'll spend less money developing different bikes for each national series, something they may not have been able to do under a DMG/AMA run series.

[cameraman]

Okay just to be clear this is a totally new series with no schedule, no teams and no manufacturers?

[Steve99]

Okay just to be clear this is a totally new series with no schedule, no teams and no manufacturers?

It's a new series, started by the manufacturers.

The Motorcycle Industry Council, the national trade association representing top motorcycle manufacturers and 300-plus other members, will launch a new professional road racing series next year in the United States.

[oddlycalm]

As they are able to move towards a globalized superbike standard, they'll spend less money developing different bikes for each national series, something they may not have been able to do under a DMG/AMA run series.
Exactly what they were thinking. If they can run the same bikes as SBK (World Superbike) it isn't going to cost them an extra penny in development.

So, now that we have The Split in bikes I'm guessing Daytona stays with the DMG unless they fold the tent and USSB races at the rest of the tracks but on different dates? The bike audience is a lot more technical than the car audience so selling them a pig in a poke was never going to wash and the factories weren't going away either.

DMG's formula may actually offer some interesting racing, it's just not superbike racing of the SBK variety. Not sure if there is room in the market for both, but if there is it would be full of win for fans. Races with privateers on a dozen different bikes would be big fun to watch as would the USSB races. DMG may even attract factory efforts from brands that would never be competitive in USSB. Seeing a BMW H2 squad duking it out with Aprilla and Buell would be big fun.

Or, it could kill the sport. :\

oc

[cameraman]

Okay so we have a new series started by the manufacturers with no scheduled races, no announced teams, no announced drivers and no announced TV contract and the first race is next spring:eek:

So has the AMA and/or AMA teams just lost any and all manufacturer support:confused:

[opinionated ow]

Okay so we have a new series started by the manufacturers with no scheduled races, no announced teams, no announced drivers and no announced TV contract and the first race is next spring:eek:

So has the AMA and/or AMA teams just lost any and all manufacturer support:confused:

I think the AMA had already lost everyone. If it is put together by the manufacturer's council, then I would suggest it has the majority, if not all the manufacturers

[pchall]

I think the AMA had already lost everyone. If it is put together by the manufacturer's council, then I would suggest it has the majority, if not all the manufacturers

I think you're right.

Briggs & Stratton powered mini-bikes will race at Daytona during Spudweeks.

[cameraman]

So everybody is madly parsing the out clauses in their 2009 contracts :saywhat:

[The Doctor]

So everybody is madly parsing the out clauses in their 2009 contracts :saywhat:

The tracks and promoters probably are, outside of California and Daytona. I wouldn't be surprised to see Brainerd rejoin with USSB if they do the track renovations this year. The riders are all contracted to the manufacturers and the manufacturer-backed teams, so no worries there. Spies might still be bolting to MotoGP (less likely) or SBK (looking more likely) but that would probably be the main one. Mladin will probably stick around now that the USSB was formed.

[emjaya]

I think you're right.

Briggs & Stratton powered mini-bikes will race at Daytona during Spudweeks.

turbocharged? :gomer:

O/T(maybe); I see that Harley Davidson has bought MV Augusta.

First question is does this mean they will bring out a Hoggerly Doggerly that can actually turn corners and stop? :gomer: :D

Seriously though, what do the France family care about Japanese manufacturers when there is a good American manufacturer with a huge world wide following?
The new Daytona rules look right up H-D's alley. :\

[oddlycalm]

O/T(maybe); The new Daytona rules look right up H-D's alley. :\
Never say never, but most likely not. The Buell (H-D) that has met the homologation requirement uses a Rotax engine rather that the Hardly-Dangerous engines the production sleds use.

I'd like to see both series myself. Buell's, BMW H2's, Arillia and Ducati twins running against Japanese supersports would be a fun formula, it's just not a superbike formula.

oc