View Full Version : The Peace process begins...
Brickman
02-27-08, 05:32 PM
The problem with peace is when you have those who don't want it.
Open wheel has been at war for far too long, yes TG took the first shot in his quest for controlling open wheel.
But here was have the situation resolved by those that have their dollars in the game. It's not the livelihoods of TG or Kalkhoven I concern myself with. But their success in this future effects a lot of good people.
The future.... One first of course has to consider if they are a fan of motor sports and open wheel in particular, or are they a fan of the split, FTG and all the B.S. that goes with it, or are they a race fan.
Jimmy Spencer wasn't a fan of Toyota, "bombed Pearl Harbor, don't forget," . Pretty stupid reason to not want a manufacture to enter a series and succeed. Do open wheel fans need forty fifty sixty years to put it behind?
I don't have a lot of faith in Tony George, I have no love for the existing package. But there seems a willingness to attempt to not disenfranchise the fans, the ones he did when he started the IRL.
Also {very important} both Tony hinted that the next package may be looking at alternative fuels not Ethanol, Kalkhoven made the same comments about Cosworth when discussing engines that they are working on. One can hope that Indy Car with the partnership in place will be able to grow a series that can create those kind of advancements in racing.
CW V3.0 made their statement that they are fans-O-split, and "will not be blinded by... the false series".
When does one bury the hatchet? When both series were dead? When NASCAR rules the world? Only with Victory and Kalkhoven "buying IMS"?
I believe as always that it's ok to give them grief, when they screw up calls, continue with bad tracks, create poor chassis or flying cars. But to continue the same bitching about the past 12 years is senseless.
No peace in the Middle East and we scoff, yet can we do no better and it's just a sport?
The future isn't too bright if your eyes are closed. I would blame no fan for walking away from the sport... you will only see in it what you want in it, so what do you want? Do you want open wheel to succeed, or stay a fan-O-split and not be happy until the Indy 500 is a NASCAR race and open wheel is no more.
So it goes.
Spicoli
02-27-08, 05:40 PM
I will always hate TG as a person. He is an arrogant self centered prick of epic proportions. The press conference performance today showed he is still an idiot, and will likely always be an idiot. How embarrassing for the sport.
The ball is totally in his court. I will watch, but I expect nothing until he steps back and puts the sport in qualified, capable hands.
cameraman
02-27-08, 05:41 PM
Tony George's actions resulted in posts like this.
Reason enough to hate him forever...
Sean Malone
02-27-08, 05:45 PM
The problem with peace is when you have those who don't want it.
Open wheel has been at war for far too long, yes TG took the first shot in his quest for controlling open wheel.
But here was have the situation resolved by those that have their dollars in the game. It's not the livelihoods of TG or Kalkhoven I concern myself with. But their success in this future effects a lot of good people.
The future.... One first of course has to consider if they are a fan of motor sports and open wheel in particular, or are they a fan of the split, FTG and all the B.S. that goes with it, or are they a race fan.
Jimmy Spencer wasn't a fan of Toyota, "bombed Pearl Harbor, don't forget," . Pretty stupid reason to not want a manufacture to enter a series and succeed. Do open wheel fans need forty fifty sixty years to put it behind?
I don't have a lot of faith in Tony George, I have no love for the existing package. But there seems a willingness to attempt to not disenfranchise the fans, the ones he did when he started the IRL.
Also {very important} both Tony hinted that the next package may be looking at alternative fuels not Ethanol, Kalkhoven made the same comments about Cosworth when discussing engines that they are working on. One can hope that Indy Car with the partnership in place will be able to grow a series that can create those kind of advancements in racing.
CW V3.0 made their statement that they are fans-O-split, and "will not be blinded by... the false series".
When does one bury the hatchet? When both series were dead? When NASCAR rules the world? Only with Victory and Kalkhoven "buying IMS"?
I believe as always that it's ok to give them grief, when they screw up calls, continue with bad tracks, create poor chassis or flying cars. But to continue the same bitching about the past 12 years is senseless.
No peace in the Middle East and we scoff, yet can we do no better and it's just a sport?
The future isn't too bright if your eyes are closed. I would blame no fan for walking away from the sport... you will only see in it what you want in it, so what do you want? Do you want open wheel to succeed, or stay a fan-O-split and not be happy until the Indy 500 is a NASCAR race and open wheel is no more.
So it goes.
Maybe they can run the engines on tenderloin oil? :confused:
I have things I want to see that I listed in another thread before I'll go to a race or buy and IndyCar hat and I think it will take a year or two to see if things change.
I was discussing this with my wife and sister when they asked if we wanted to go to the St Pete race which is coming up soon. It's tempting because it is an ALMS double header and when I was trying to justify going I explained that I have been a fan of open wheel for two decades. I know the sport inside and out from the cars and drivers to the history to the biz etc. Should I turn my back just because CC was absorbed? I don't know squat about the ALMS. Sure it may be a new and exciting adventure learning about it. it could even rekindle those 'early fan' feelings I had way back when, but do I want to?
there is a side of me that wants to see the cry baby Brazilians and go to Indy and not have to explain the split to people who ask me what Champ Car is. On the other side, I have 13 years invested. It's going to take longer than an hour to erase what Tony started.
But here's my attempt at a renewed 'peace'...nice post brick. :thumbup:
Wheel-Nut
02-27-08, 06:14 PM
What we've got here is failure to communicate. Some men you just can't reach, so you get what we had here last week which is the way he wants it. Well, he gets it. And I don't like it any more than you men.
What we've got here is failure to communicate. Some men you just can't reach, so you get what we had here last week which is the way he wants it. Well, he gets it. And I don't like it any more than you men.
1fuDDqU6n4o
:D
Great post, Brickman.
Lots of Management Fans here and elsewhere who, it seems, would rather watch a field of 12 - 16 rev-limited, spec-Champcars driven by mostly nobodies drone around Long Beach this year.
I don't get it.
I couldn't care less about Tony George. Now KK, I went through a phase of hating him but I realized that was a waste of energy. I probably have a problem with some of the fans who treat hating TG as some kind of religion. In fact I find it quite disturbing.
I'm just so glad I started my apathy phase three years ago. None of this is bothering me. I'm just gonna go with the flow and see what happens down the line.
Racing Truth
02-27-08, 09:00 PM
As I've said before, aside from the delusional ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,tard brigades, different fans will handle this differently. It doesn't mean any are wrong. Like Rich, I'm wired in such a way that, all-in-all, I see this as a positive. No, I don't like the management, but the management in this sport has sucked for yrs.
In the end, for reasons I don't fully understand myself, I still love open-wheel racing. As such, I'm going to give this thing a real shot.
Tony George will always be the downside. Until 2010, so are the cars.
But the upsides are there too: An oval-r/s balance, hopefully by 2009, Wilson, Tracy, and Graham on the same track as Dixon, Helio, and Kanaan, 25+ cars racing, possibility of real bumping (and a MUCH stronger-this cannot be denied, IMHO-field overall) at Indianapolis, and PT back at Indy (bet we see Jeemy too- only a hunch, no news).
For me, there are still plenty of upsides. Enough, anyway, to outweigh the negatives, and enough to get me to watch.
BUT this was my personal way of reckoning this. Others will, LEGITIMATELY, come to very different conclusions. They're not wrong or irrational haters. Most have followed this trainwreck for yrs., if not decades. Saying they're being bitter b/c they made a different choice is, IMHO, very unfair.
I will encourage others to give this a shot, or to revisit it in a couple yrs. I will NOT, however, badger anyone or question their motives.
grungex
02-27-08, 09:07 PM
One first of course has to consider if they are a fan of motor sports and open wheel in particular, or are they a fan of the split, FTG and all the B.S. that goes with it, or are they a race fan.
:thumdown: You completely blew it with this line. Bite me.
The future.... One first of course has to consider if they are a fan of motor sports and open wheel in particular, or are they a fan of the split, FTG and all the B.S. that goes with it, or are they a race fan.
You're presenting a false dilemma. I'll support racing that I'm interested in and enjoy and, for the most part, I don't care about the rest of it. The IRL is an exception because Tony George has earned a special measure of disdain for causing all of this in the first place.
If some want to support the amalgamated IRL in hopes that things will get better, that's their choice. My opinion is that it's foolish to support something you don't like in hopes that it will improve. But I'm not going to sit here and tell people that they're either a fan of "real racing, real sport" or they're a "fan-O-Tony."
Brickman
02-27-08, 09:43 PM
BUT this was my personal way of reckoning this. Others will, LEGITIMATELY, come to very different conclusions. They're not wrong or irrational haters. Most have followed this trainwreck for yrs., if not decades. Saying they're being bitter b/c they made a different choice is, IMHO, very unfair.
Not quite saying that. Nothing wrong with the bitterness at the right time and place. I think Travis said it best in a Chat room one day, "Crappies are just passionate fans". I don't think it was wrong to be a fan, wrong to be a passionate fan, although the antics of Defender and a few others seemed to indicate they were more fans of the split, than fans of the sport. I have an issue with fans OF the split. People who will carry on with the same bull **** that took place during the split without trying to save the sport. People have strong opinion of Tony George's and I would never disuade anyone from it.
Heck even David Letterman had it right when Paul Newman said "I have a problem with the management".
Dave's reply:
"We all do, doesn't mean we can't take his money."
Bite me.
h
Ed_Severson
02-27-08, 09:55 PM
My perspective on things is this -- the time for having your feelings hurt has passed.
It's been a long fight. It was ugly. It was bitter. It was messy. And, ultimately, it was pointless if the end result is throwing your hands up in disgust at the result and walking away.
Needless to say, Champ Car fans didn't exactly get what they were hoping for. When you look at it, though, neither did IndyCar fans. Everybody involved is making some compromises. That's not such a bad thing.
For sure, there are some obstacles. Primarily, Tony George is the big winner in the game. That's a hard pill to swallow. The cars are a big stumbling block. Venues like Iowa and Richmond and Kansas aren't very exciting either.
But I see a lot of reason for hope. The immediate inclusion of traditional Champ Car venues like Long Beach and Surfer's Paradise is a good thing (although what they're doing with Long Beach is, in my view, the worst possible solution to that particular problem). Looking ahead to Toronto and Cleveland and Road America in 2009 is even better. The new formula in 2010 is a big opportunity for the IRL to demonstrate that they have a genuine interest in moving the sport forward from this point, and there have been a lot of good signs on that front. Making the effort to pick up key personnel from Champ Car to put together the best possible series staff is a big concession.
Although he is obviously a poor public speaker, I think Tony has been surprisingly conciliatory in his comments, and he seems to have been humbled by the entire 12-year process. I think he's starting to realize that while he held the trump card all along, his hand wasn't nearly as good as he believed it to be. These guys all need each other, and they're finally realizing it and working in good faith towards getting everyone back on the same page.
I gotta be honest ... at the beginning of the press conference, before Tony and Kevin came out, I was driver spotting. Seeing Will Power, Simon Pagenaud, Justin Wilson, Robert Doornbos, Alex Tagliani, Oriol Servia, Bruno Junqueira, Graham Rahal, Ryan Briscoe, Scott Dixon, Tony Kanaan, Helio Castroneves, Vitor Meira, and Marco Andretti in the same place was kind of exciting. Having all of these guys competing in the same series can only be a good thing.
I'm giving it a shot. Like I've said before, the 2009 and 2010 schedules and the 2010 formula will be the telltales -- by then we'll know for sure whether the unified sport is headed in the right direction or continuing to flounder. Until then, though, I'm going to stick it out and hopefully be part of the effort to take a series that is so-so and turn it into something great, which is what the sport deserves.
Jebus Bricky, do you have to bring that ******** Crackforum "h" nonsense over here?
I'm tired of it all.
The product is what made me a fan of CART. If the IRL eventually becomes something of interest I'll watch it. Might even become a big fan of it. Who knows. Time to put down the gloves. It's really been sad watching both of these sides going down in flames the past couple years. Sadder still to know it could've been averted.
Only an interesting product and time will tell if I continue on being a fan. I owe nothing to OW to help it recover, I was already giving of myself to the sport as a fan before others chose the route to self destruction.
They owe me and us big time.
mexican
02-27-08, 10:06 PM
I'm all for it. It's been too much of a drain these years. If it begins to stink I will turn it off, but the mind is open & welcoming, let's race! :)
good post Brick
Brickman
02-27-08, 10:09 PM
You're presenting a false dilemma. I'll support racing that I'm interested in and enjoy and, for the most part, I don't care about the rest of it. The IRL is an exception because Tony George has earned a special measure of disdain for causing all of this in the first place.
If some want to support the amalgamated IRL in hopes that things will get better, that's their choice. My opinion is that it's foolish to support something you don't like in hopes that it will improve. But I'm not going to sit here and tell people that they're either a fan of "real racing, real sport" or they're a "fan-O-Tony."
Don't care about open wheel. That's your perogative. Don't support the amalgamated series, I think that's fine. ALMS and others may become far more attractive and fun. But I am concerned, if Tony George makes open wheel that much more miserable at this stage when he's done a shity job, (spec cars, spec motors) when the IRL cannot possibly go lower (momentum racing and flying cars) because Tony runs the show, then (I am just guessing) those people might hate it, be even more miserable if it were successful and entertaining and they (TG & KK) did things right.
Don't get me wrong, one doesn't have to kiss anyone's ass. Give them TG and KK grief people can give them a honeymoon or not. Open wheel needs every fan it can. Be a critic of this day forth, but not the past, it's over. We disagreed over the reasons for a merger in the past (http://www.offcamber.net/forums/showthread.php?t=8237), it's time to look forward.
Brickman
02-27-08, 10:11 PM
Jebus Bricky, do you have to bring that ******** Crackforum "h" nonsense over here?
Well he brought the Smackforum "Bite me" here, so I figured fight fire with fire. Should have just said nothing.:o
grungex
02-27-08, 10:38 PM
Perhaps you, a NASCAR-loving fence-sitter, should have thought twice about trying to pass judgment on us as race fans, especially here. You ruined your own post by exposing your hypocrisy. I was rude, but you deserve it in this instance. :thumdown:
Ed_S, nice post, I was also driver-spotting. I don' necessarily share your optimism re: some of the races, but I do still have hope. The cars will make me vomit, though...
Sean Malone
02-27-08, 10:50 PM
My perspective on things is this -- the time for having your feelings hurt has passed.
It's been a long fight. It was ugly. It was bitter. It was messy. And, ultimately, it was pointless if the end result is throwing your hands up in disgust at the result and walking away.
Needless to say, Champ Car fans didn't exactly get what they were hoping for. When you look at it, though, neither did IndyCar fans. Everybody involved is making some compromises. That's not such a bad thing.
For sure, there are some obstacles. Primarily, Tony George is the big winner in the game. That's a hard pill to swallow. The cars are a big stumbling block. Venues like Iowa and Richmond and Kansas aren't very exciting either.
But I see a lot of reason for hope. The immediate inclusion of traditional Champ Car venues like Long Beach and Surfer's Paradise is a good thing (although what they're doing with Long Beach is, in my view, the worst possible solution to that particular problem). Looking ahead to Toronto and Cleveland and Road America in 2009 is even better. The new formula in 2010 is a big opportunity for the IRL to demonstrate that they have a genuine interest in moving the sport forward from this point, and there have been a lot of good signs on that front. Making the effort to pick up key personnel from Champ Car to put together the best possible series staff is a big concession.
Although he is obviously a poor public speaker, I think Tony has been surprisingly conciliatory in his comments, and he seems to have been humbled by the entire 12-year process. I think he's starting to realize that while he held the trump card all along, his hand wasn't nearly as good as he believed it to be. These guys all need each other, and they're finally realizing it and working in good faith towards getting everyone back on the same page.
I gotta be honest ... at the beginning of the press conference, before Tony and Kevin came out, I was driver spotting. Seeing Will Power, Simon Pagenaud, Justin Wilson, Robert Doornbos, Alex Tagliani, Oriol Servia, Bruno Junqueira, Graham Rahal, Ryan Briscoe, Scott Dixon, Tony Kanaan, Helio Castroneves, Vitor Meira, and Marco Andretti in the same place was kind of exciting. Having all of these guys competing in the same series can only be a good thing.
I'm giving it a shot. Like I've said before, the 2009 and 2010 schedules and the 2010 formula will be the telltales -- by then we'll know for sure whether the unified sport is headed in the right direction or continuing to flounder. Until then, though, I'm going to stick it out and hopefully be part of the effort to take a series that is so-so and turn it into something great, which is what the sport deserves.
Nice post and while I agree with what you wrote, I'm concerned about how Tony's ego is now going to explode because he 'won'.
The next two years will tell. Lets see an A list title sponsor, lets see multiple engine manufactures and chassis'. Let's see the right decisions being made instead of the wrong ones like in the last 12 years. Like i've been saying, I've got too many years invested in this split to run out and buy indyCar tickets and an Dankicle hat, but I also have too many years invested in open wheel to just turn my back now and jump into some other series like some. Waiting...watching...hoping.
Don't get me wrong, one doesn't have to kiss anyone's ass. Give them TG and KK grief people can give them a honeymoon or not. Open wheel needs every fan it can. Be a critic of this day forth, but not the past, it's over. We disagreed over the reasons for a merger in the past (http://www.offcamber.net/forums/showthread.php?t=8237), it's time to look forward.My fandom is available. They can either put together a product I'm interested in or pay me $5000 per year plus expenses. Neither of those appears likely for 2008, but we'll see about 2009.
It does no good to live in the past, but it shouldn't be dismissed. Too much has been lost and too many bitter lessons learned. Many fans are gone for good and many more will never be the same again.
But aside from that, the past is now. The cars, engines, tracks, and management are still crap and they reflect a mindset that is at the very core of the reasons why many have resisted unification so vehemently. So It's not really accurate or fair to claim that all the grievances are in the past.
Brickman
02-27-08, 11:09 PM
Perhaps you, a NASCAR-loving fence-sitter, should have thought twice about trying to pass judgment on us as race fans, especially here. You ruined your own post by exposing your hypocrisy. I was rude, but you deserve it in this instance. :thumdown:
Ed_S, nice post, I was also driver-spotting. I don' necessarily share your optimism re: some of the races, but I do still have hope. The cars will make me vomit, though...
Yes you were rude. ;)
So... "One first of course has to consider if they are a fan of motor sports and open wheel in particular, or are they a fan of the split, FTG and all the B.S. that goes with it, or are they a race fan."
I thought it was a fair question. I personally think the Defenders of the world are going to start dropping like flies. Simply because they can't talk about racing, about what happens on the track. They have a single purpose. Not to watch races, but to count empty seats, not to criticise drivers, but to post stupid animations. Not to be a fan of open wheel, but an active nonfan. Not to engage in discussions, but to call people names.
No one on any forum has ever made me mad, even you. I have said time and time again that we are all race fans regardless of how we believed this thing would turn out. If there were no split many a beer would be drank together from people on each side of the fence.
Like VonBaron asked at CW, you are in or out. Of course even that will change depending on the results of TG and KK, some may leave, and some may return.
As far a NASCAR... I guess you won't be joining the OC NASCAR Yahoo Fantasy League (http://racing.fantasysports.yahoo.com/auto/group/9292)
Being obsessed w/ middle school football doesn't make one a super 'core football fan.
Being obsessed with a 3rd rate series w/ 3rd rate organizations, 3rd rate innovation, and by and large 3rd rate drivers does not make one a better "race fan" or "formula car fan." It's their perogative, and more power to them if that's what they want, but the "super fan" who insinuates otherwise can eat a bag.
Brickman
02-27-08, 11:19 PM
My fandom is available. They can either put together a product I'm interested in or pay me $5000 per year plus expenses. Neither of those appears likely for 2008, but we'll see about 2009.
It does no good to live in the past, but it shouldn't be dismissed. Too much has been lost and too many bitter lessons learned. Many fans are gone for good and many more will never be the same again.
But aside from that, the past is now. The cars, engines, tracks, and management are still crap and they reflect a mindset that is at the very core of the reasons why many have resisted unification so vehemently. So It's not really accurate or fair to claim that all the grievances are in the past.
Hopefully the past will become the distant past quickly. I personally don't see the stars becoming aligned until 2010. Two years is too long a time to wait for a new car, full fields in Texas is not something I will watch. But will hope and pray for the best and that this becomes a time of building and not more of the same.
This is it...tg has to produce now, he has no one else to blame.
Napoleon
02-28-08, 06:57 AM
Great, are we going to have post like this from people like Brickman?
Tony George's actions resulted in posts like this.
Reason enough to hate him forever...
Eggzactly!
You're presenting a false dilemma. I'll support racing that I'm interested in and enjoy and, for the most part, I don't care about the rest of it. The IRL is an exception because Tony George has earned a special measure of disdain for causing all of this in the first place.
If some want to support the amalgamated IRL in hopes that things will get better, that's their choice. My opinion is that it's foolish to support something you don't like in hopes that it will improve. But I'm not going to sit here and tell people that they're either a fan of "real racing, real sport" or they're a "fan-O-Tony."
Brickman is a lemming, always has been. This is the kind of junk they have been saying since day one.
Two years is too long a time to wait for a new car,
Wait a minute! Why are we talking ONE car! Shouldn't we not be talking about opening things up for multiple manufacturers and engine builders? THAT was what INDYCAR was about pre '96.
Wait a minute! Why are we talking ONE car! Shouldn't we not be talking about opening things up for multiple manufacturers and engine builders? THAT was what INDYCAR was about pre '96.
Agreed. Now would be a great time to announce a new formula, rules, engine regs, etc., and let the great minds in the racing world compete again.
Real competition. What a concept! :eek:
eiregosod
02-28-08, 09:58 AM
where's the compromise on FTG's part?
"hey I wonned, you eat cake!"
Boatdesigner
02-28-08, 10:59 AM
I will be surprised if there is a great change in the cars for 2010. If most of the teams are surviving on :tony: $$$ now, it is a good bet they'll still be in a similar situation in 2010. That means most of the new cars and motors will have to come from even more :tony: $$$. I don't think the sponsors will flock back to the IRL now that CCWS is dead, especially not in the current economy. The IRL has no history of creating good ROI, that hasn't changed. Even if all of us suddenly fell in love with the IRL, the stands would still be more empty than full.
Sean Malone
02-28-08, 11:22 AM
I will be surprised if there is a great change in the cars for 2010. If most of the teams are surviving on :tony: $$$ now, it is a good bet they'll still be in a similar situation in 2010. That means most of the new cars and motors will have to come from even more :tony: $$$. I don't think the sponsors will flock back to the IRL now that CCWS is dead, especially not in the current economy. The IRL has no history of creating good ROI, that hasn't changed. Even if all of us suddenly fell in love with the IRL, the stands would still be more empty than full.
Because half of the tracks they race at are NASCAR tracks with stands to accommodate the massive hordes of NASCAR lemmings (except Fontana hee hee).
We'll see how competent IndyCar is now in taking the news of the unification and promoting it. They should drop all of the dead weight tracks with half full stands while making damn sure the good tracks are well promoted and packed.
The problem I have with the IRL, or I should say, one of the problems, is that no matter how bad things are for them, they never admit there are problems. As someone else said, they should keep the momentum going and announce car changes and invite all interested parties to join. The split did drive many sponsors away...lets see if IndyCar can get them back.
Wheel-Nut
02-28-08, 11:33 AM
WE PRACTICE SELECTIVE ANNIHILATION OF TEAMS
AND TEAM OWNERS
FOR EXAMPLE TO CREATE A VACUUM
THEN WE FILL THAT VACUUM
AS POPULAR WAR ADVANCES
PEACE IS CLOSER
Brickman
02-28-08, 12:50 PM
Brickman is a lemming, always has been. This is the kind of junk they have been saying since day one.
Lemmings don't complain about TG, caars. engines, tracks etc. I do. But it really is time to quit looking back.
http://www.trackforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13003
http://www.trackforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=15475
The domain server here at work blocks
personal email sites
porn sites
gambling sites
ebay
and
TF
:gomer: :laugh:
Brickman
02-28-08, 01:00 PM
:thumbup: :rofl:
WE PRACTICE SELECTIVE ANNIHILATION OF TEAMS
AND TEAM OWNERS
FOR EXAMPLE TO CREATE A VACUUM
THEN WE FILL THAT VACUUM
AS POPULAR WAR ADVANCES
PEACE IS CLOSER
What's so civil about war?
Lemmings don't complain about TG, caars. engines, tracks etc. I do. But it really is time to quit looking back.
http://www.trackforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13003
http://www.trackforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=15475
I will give that to Brickie... He may have a popsicle stuck up his arse however he does rail on the ownership as well... All that criticize the Hulmanista at least acknowledge the problem.... FTG himself...
I will be surprised if there is a great change in the cars for 2010. If most of the teams are surviving on :tony: $$$ now, it is a good bet they'll still be in a similar situation in 2010. That means most of the new cars and motors will have to come from even more :tony: $$$.
That is precisely why they need to open up the specs and let competition happen. It is the overpriced spec formula that has boxed the series into a high-cost only way of doing business. Declare a drastically reduced displacement turbo formula and only regulate the chassis for safety purposes. Open it up and let the teams find the solutions.
It won't be "wheel to wheel excitement," but it will be actual racing, and it will be as cheap or expensive as the budgets allow, which is how it should be.
And that was one hell of a good post, Ed.
One first of course has to consider if they are a fan of motor sports and open wheel in particular, or are they a fan of the split, FTG and all the B.S. that goes with it, or are they a race fan.
You miss the point entirely. It's never been about politics. It's always been about whether or not you are going to swallow crap just because it's served up on a plate of sacred bricks and tenderloins.
What one really needs to consider is whether or not they are a fan of ugly cars and drivers going around in circles with their foot to the floor. If they are, they should be watching NASCAR, who does it better with more races, more cars, more wrecks and even more drunks if all you want to do is watch something while drinking beer until the NFL returns.
One needs to consider if one is a fan of road races where the cars are slower than Atlantics and whether one is stupid enough to consider that "big time" road racing.
If the IRL gets some better cars I might wander back, but I ain't going to be dragged "kicking and screaming" to watch crap.
Enjoy your crap flavored tenderloins if you want, but a willingness to swallow crap doesn't make you morally superior. It just gives me the information I need to make an opinion about your taste in motorsports.
Sean O'Gorman
02-29-08, 12:05 PM
You miss the point entirely. It's never been about politics. It's always been about whether or not you are going to swallow crap just because it's served up on a plate of sacred bricks and tenderloins.
What one really needs to consider is whether or not they are a fan of ugly cars and drivers going around in circles with their foot to the floor. If they are, they should be watching NASCAR, who does it better with more races, more cars, more wrecks and even more drunks if all you want to do is watch something while drinking beer until the NFL returns.
One needs to consider if one is a fan of road races where the cars are slower than Atlantics and whether one is stupid enough to consider that "big time" road racing.
If the IRL gets some better cars I might wander back, but I ain't going to be dragged "kicking and screaming" to watch crap.
Enjoy your crap flavored tenderloins if you want, but a willingness to swallow crap doesn't make you morally superior. It just gives me the information I need to make an opinion about your taste in motorsports.
Indy cars are slower than Atlantics?
Its amazing how some of you think that ugly = slow when it come to race cars.
Andrew Longman
02-29-08, 01:05 PM
Indy cars are slower than Atlantics?
Its amazing how some of you think that ugly = slow when it come to race cars.
Atlantic: 300hp/1400lbs = .21
IRL: 650hp/1600lbs (road course min.) = .41
CC: 850hp/1525lbs = .56
Not factoring aero drag and braking power it would seem that Atlantics are about as much slower than an IRL car as the IRL car is slower than CC.
But they are just so damn ugly with too much downforce.
Sean O'Gorman
02-29-08, 01:28 PM
The pole time for the IRL race at Mid-Ohio last year is like 9 seconds a lap quicker than the last Atlantics pole time from 2003. Unless the repaving and the new cars are worth 9 seconds a lap more than the old Atlantics, there is no way in hell that an Atlantic car is even close to an IRL car.
New Atlantics are usually 2-4 seconds faster than the old ones. Still not nearly as fast as the crapwagons, but it is a feeder series, after all.
You miss the point entirely. It's never been about politics. It's always been about whether or not you are going to swallow crap just because it's served up on a plate of sacred bricks and tenderloins.
What one really needs to consider is whether or not they are a fan of ugly cars and drivers going around in circles with their foot to the floor. If they are, they should be watching NASCAR, who does it better with more races, more cars, more wrecks and even more drunks if all you want to do is watch something while drinking beer until the NFL returns.
One needs to consider if one is a fan of road races where the cars are slower than Atlantics and whether one is stupid enough to consider that "big time" road racing.
If the IRL gets some better cars I might wander back, but I ain't going to be dragged "kicking and screaming" to watch crap.
Enjoy your crap flavored tenderloins if you want, but a willingness to swallow crap doesn't make you morally superior. It just gives me the information I need to make an opinion about your taste in motorsports.:sniff:
That's beautiful, man.:thumbup:
I hope the sport can prosper again too. That dog-and-pony press conference (if any indication of the future) is a perfect example of the failures of the Hulman-George Indycentric mindset and how totally CLUELESS the IndyCar Series is now that unification is complete. It had all the glamour of a "shotgun wedding" held out behind the outhouse.
Look, the IRL and the subsequent Indycar Series has had an unsophisticated classless feel to it from the very beginning. Call me a snob but Tony George DUMBED DOWN American Open Wheel with the creation of the IRL and it still exists to this very day. It has a tangible grundgy squalid feel that needs to have it doused with gasoline and left to burn it's self out of existance.
I know the paragraph above appears elitist but it's a quality that is tangible and helps steer whether I'm gonna attend new unified racing. I do not like "I Am Indy" slogans....the silly contrived driver "playfulness" the IRL promotes in their promos and after race interviews has NO appeal to me. Open wheel USED to be about serious stuff...laying it on the line, racing on the edge, 10/10ths. All of that is gone and hasn't changed with unification, it's the same POS downhome wannbe-like NASCAR without fenders Hee-Haw show that the IRL always is. See the press conference for proof.
Now, since the merge became public I stated repeatedly that the powers that be in the IRL need to come forward with a plan....perhaps even capturing the fans imagination with a new direction, with the net result in healing old wounds and moving forward. New branding, or even the "Illusion" that's where we need to be. BUT, we got NOTHING but studdering and "I don't know". Status quo, and the hope that just having the two series together is going to stimulate growth and form direction? ARE YOU KIDDING ME? Can not ANYONE see the scortched earth left in the wake of the SPLIT? To me, the IRL steamroller just flattened the fans right into the ground with this lack of "vision".
Give them a chance? I want to but conclude "Where's the BEEF"? That press conference WAS the opportunity to move forward but they blew it. THAT will not challenge NASCAR or any of it's offspring....due to it's lack of originalityno matter HOW LONG you want to wait for it, new cars, new tracks etc. Just not going to happen unless they bury it all and start fresh...which they're not. If you're like me, you won't stand for it and will move my interests elsewhere. Why the IRL can see past their noses on this is again the most puzzling of all. Indycentric again, indeed.
In reality.....we are plunged back to the mid-70's. Rag tag teams grubbing for used chassis and hand out's from Indy's teet. Just the way it was designed apparently.
Sean O'Gorman
02-29-08, 03:00 PM
Open wheel USED to be about serious stuff...laying it on the line, racing on the edge, 10/10ths. All of that is gone and hasn't changed with unification, it's the same POS downhome wannbe-like NASCAR without fenders Hee-Haw show that the IRL always is.
Where the hell do you get that Indy car racing isn't serious? The assumptions that some people make on the internets are amazing.
Again, just because it isn't interesting to YOU doesn't mean that it isn't serious, high-level racing. I really don't care that much one way or another about watching this season, but I'm not going to cut down the racing.
Napoleon
02-29-08, 03:09 PM
Where the hell do you get that Indy car racing isn't serious?
I don't think he is saying that he doesn't think it is serious, or that it is not serious, but that the powers to be in the IRL present it in a way other then that it is serious.
Where the hell do you get that Indy car racing isn't serious? The assumptions that some people make on the internets are amazing.
Again, just because it isn't interesting to YOU doesn't mean that it isn't serious, high-level racing. I really don't care that much one way or another about watching this season, but I'm not going to cut down the racing.
I'm talking about fan perception of the IRL sport...I'm not referring to three-wide, side-by-side death defying action you appear to be referring to.
Thanks Napoleon...you get it.
Racing Truth
02-29-08, 03:31 PM
Well, not surprisingly this thread went in interesting directions.
Long thread made short:
Some will never watch a Hulman-George/IMS product. Period. Some will only watch if, to their surprise, the product is really good/great. Some will, despite reservations, give it a shot; in time, they might leave for good, leave then comeback, or stay on for good.
All are reasonable, yet personal decisions. Simple as that. Anything else is just filling space.
cameraman
02-29-08, 03:39 PM
Like I said...
Tony George's actions resulted in posts like this.
Reason enough to hate him forever...
Some will never watch a Hulman-George/IMS product. Period. Some will only watch if, to their surprise, the product is really good/great. Some will, despite reservations, give it a shot; in time, they might leave for good, leave then comeback, or stay on for good.
As long as it's IRL "business as usual" it ain't never gonna work. The sooner the IRL faces that the sooner the wounds can heal. But they just ignore it all....
Insomniac
02-29-08, 04:25 PM
Everytime I see this thread, I wonder, is this what paper meant by peace in racing,,,,,?
Indy cars are slower than Atlantics?
Tracy: IRL cars are four seconds slower than Atlantics at Mid Ohio
(http://72.14.205.104/search?q=cache:ivyCpFRBAy8J:thepaddock.blogspot.co m/+Road+course+Lap+times+IRL+atlantics&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=7&gl=ca)
Paul Tracy is saying that the IRL cars tested at Mid-Ohio and are four seconds slower than the Atlantics.
IRL Cars: Slower than Atlantics on Road Courses?
The forums seem to be buzzing about an alleged IRL test at Mid-Ohio. The word is that they were slower than the Toyota Atlantics times. Ouch.
But that was 2004. I'll admit that you ain't swallowing crap, you're swallowing crap that has been slightly polished in the last few years.
Sean O'Gorman
03-01-08, 02:03 AM
Oh, so a rumor on a blog from 2004 is more concrete evidence than actual lap times from 2007 that were quicker than Champ Car the last time they were there? :saywhat:
I wish I could be as sophisticated as you to be able to deem a $350,000 race car as crap.
The older SOG gets the more perfect a :gomer: he becomes. :shakehead
Andrew Longman
03-01-08, 10:30 AM
The older SOG gets the more perfect a :gomer: he becomes. :shakehead
Well, I looked it up. PT pole time in 2003 = 1:07:058. HCN pole time in 07 = 1:06:8375.
I don't get that, but its what they did.
grungex
03-01-08, 10:49 AM
Didn't they totally repave the track and get rid of the concrete braking zones?
Sean O'Gorman
03-01-08, 10:58 AM
FWIW, the ALMS pole time dropped from 1:12.816 in '06 to 1:08.510 in '07, both by a Porsche RS Spyder.
Well, I looked it up. PT pole time in 2003 = 1:07:058. HCN pole time in 07 = 1:06:8375.
I don't get that, but its what they did.
Look up the times turned by SP in 2007 and you will have your answer. They are obtainable on the web.
Lux Interior
03-01-08, 12:36 PM
I think the IRL is the worst of the big open wheel leagues, and TG is not going to ever be a Rhodes Scholar, but I have mixed feelings since Tony brought Formula 1 to my backyard for 8 years and I went to almost every one of those races and they were great.
I guess I'm going to wait and see before I invest time and money into following the new league. I'm looking for it to be run like a professional organization and don't want to see amateur hour like we've had in the past.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.5 Copyright © 2024 vBulletin Solutions Inc. All rights reserved.