Wow. (RM edition) [Archive] - Off Camber Forums

Insomniac

01-28-08, 03:50 PM

It would be nice if Robin told us what they do care about. Interesting it's GF, PG and DP on the opposite side of KK. What a mess. IMO, it would've been a mess to do for 2008. The same problems that prevented TG from buying CART in the first place would still be there. They would have to renege on 9 events. Plus, not bringing Cleveland and RA? Terrible decisions. If all those teams are seriously considering jumping ship come 2009, maybe it will finally be a wake up call. Otherwise, it will be FPCR (8 cars) vs PKV (6 cars) vs RocketSports (2 cars) in 2009.

Gnam

01-28-08, 03:53 PM

IF FTG had turned down a similar offer from Champ Car of free DP-01's and sanctioning five IRL events, would Miller be cursing Tony George as "not a racer?" :tony:

Racing Truth

01-28-08, 04:03 PM

IF FTG had turned down a similar offer from Champ Car of free DP-01's and sanctioning five IRL events, would Miller be cursing Tony George as "not a racer?" :tony:

If Champ Car a) had a clue and b) had the same leverage relative to the IRL that TG in fact has over CC, then yes.

I've read all of this "wrong currency" talk here. Again, Forsythe esp. should have considered themselves lucky to get what was offered. B/c, I suspect, after this yr., we'll have nothing left to bargain with.

stroker

01-28-08, 04:04 PM

Uh, Robin? Answer me this--what evidence, not even significant evidence, (just any old observation you happen to have in your frontal lobe will do, thank you very much) that Tony George can run the premier US Open Wheel series even if Champ Car folds?

Honda's thrown money at him. The Brickyard 400 has thrown money at him. All the series has done is shrivel and shrink. Oh, you say that Champ Car has the fanbase and a couple of the venues that would make AOW whole again? Well, then, I guess maybe Champ Car does have something of value doesn't it? Does that mean CC can recover, let alone ultimately dominate? Not necessarily, not b a long shot. But it does mean that they're relevant to the discussion.

Nothing we've seen in the last week gives any indication that Tony George has an effing clue about what he's doing. You want to unite everything under that banner, be my guest. All it's going to do is put all the problem in one place.

Methanolandbrats

01-28-08, 04:09 PM

RM pulls out a photo of the bricks and yanks it in public again....WGAF.

jonovision_man

01-28-08, 04:15 PM

Don't you find it interesting that two guys with minimum investments (Gentilozzi and Pettit) accompanied Forsythe to last November's meetings with George but Kalkhoven wasn't there?

Or is it more surprising to learn that Vasser, Walker, Bachelart and Wiggins claim they didn't know about George's blanket offer until I called them last week?

Doesn't this remind you a bit of KK talking with the penguins last season while the super DP-01 grid fizzled?

I'm looking forward to 2009. Unity at last, one way or the other. I'm pretty firmly in RM's camp, frustrated with management bumbling.

jono

Methanolandbrats

01-28-08, 04:23 PM

Doesn't this remind you a bit of KK talking with the penguins last season while the super DP-01 grid fizzled?

I'm looking forward to 2009. Unity at last, one way or the other. I'm pretty firmly in RM's camp, frustrated with management bumbling.

jono Frustrated with management bumbling so you want unity...:laugh: Unity will clear that up. :rofl:

jonovision_man

01-28-08, 04:26 PM

Frustrated with management bumbling so you want unity...:laugh: Unity will clear that up. :rofl:

Do you consider ChampCar well managed?

jono

Andrew Longman

01-28-08, 04:33 PM

I've read all of this "wrong currency" talk here. Again, Forsythe esp. should have considered themselves lucky to get what was offered. B/c, I suspect, after this yr., we'll have nothing left to bargain with.

Gotta disagree (somewhat). A year from now CC will hardly be worse off. It is about as bad as it can get now. Meanwhile a year from now things are not likely to be better for the IRL and pressure starts to build around Honda's renewal.

Even if you don't believe that, putting together a deal, even as Tony proposed on what appears to be a few weeks notice is impossible. Just shutting down nine events and transitioning the other five is surely a complicated venture. Then there are the negotiations for the extra TV coverage that ABC is currently being paid for but now would be expected to pay the IRL.

Rather than just shut down at TG wanted, CC is far better off spending the year nailing down how the CC assets, including the DP01 and Cosworth, can benefit the IRL and smoothly transitioning the schedule.

What I also don't get is RM repeated again today TGs claim that the IRL would pay a sanctioning fee for the five CC events. Huh? The sanctioning body pays the fee? To whom? For what? Is that like renting the event to race his cars?

One thing that I think a lot of people would be interested to see and it could actually move talks along is for TG to open IMS for a DP01 test. KK pays for a few cars to get a speedway configuration and TG waives the track rental. This would answer a lot of questions about just how far apart the Dallara/Honda and Panoz/Coz are and what role the Panoz/Coz could have in the IRLs future.

Gee, why wouldn't TG want another chassis and lump maker, especially if it ended the split and got him a bunch of new cars and teams? And why wouldn't CC owners move over if they got to keep their equipment and best events on the schedule? If he's worried that the DP01 is faster and some IRL teams will feel compelled to by new equipment then help them out. He was willing to help by Dallaras, why not Panozes?

stroker

01-28-08, 04:33 PM

Do you consider ChampCar well managed?

jono

It may be a mess, but it's OUR mess.

:D

dando

01-28-08, 04:40 PM

:eek:

Jeebus, if the PLN stuff alone isn't telling, I don't know what is. The way this circus has been run the past several years, I have a hard time not believing RM. :irked:

RIP, CCWS. :(

-Kevin

Methanolandbrats

01-28-08, 04:42 PM

Do you consider ChampCar well managed?

jono Compared to the IRL it is well managed. This will be painfully clear if the IRL absorbs Champcar. I know you've already got your travel agent on speed dial if it happens and I hope you enjoy 22 turds orbiting those little toilet bowls.

Racing Truth

01-28-08, 05:02 PM

1. Gotta disagree (somewhat). A year from now CC will hardly be worse off. It is about as bad as it can get now. Meanwhile a year from now things are not likely to be better for the IRL and pressure starts to build around Honda's renewal.

2. Even if you don't believe that, putting together a deal, even as Tony proposed on what appears to be a few weeks notice is impossible. Just shutting down nine events and transitioning the other five is surely a complicated venture. Then there are the negotiations for the extra TV coverage that ABC is currently being paid for but now would be expected to pay the IRL.

3. Rather than just shut down at TG wanted, CC is far better off spending the year nailing down how the CC assets, including the DP01 and Cosworth, can benefit the IRL and smoothly transitioning the schedule.

4. What I also don't get is RM repeated again today TGs claim that the IRL would pay a sanctioning fee for the five CC events. Huh? The sanctioning body pays the fee? To whom? For what? Is that like renting the event to race his cars?

5. One thing that I think a lot of people would be interested to see and it could actually move talks along is for TG to open IMS for a DP01 test. KK pays for a few cars to get a speedway configuration and TG waives the track rental. This would answer a lot of questions about just how far apart the Dallara/Honda and Panoz/Coz are and what role the Panoz/Coz could have in the IRLs future.

6. Gee, why wouldn't TG want another chassis and lump maker, especially if it ended the split and got him a bunch of new cars and teams? And why wouldn't CC owners move over if they got to keep their equipment and best events on the schedule? If he's worried that the DP01 is faster and some IRL teams will feel compelled to by new equipment then help them out. He was willing to help by Dallaras, why not Panozes?

1. Wanna bet? 'Cuz my bet is Haas and Walker (at least) are gone after this yr., thus killing the series.

2. RM says there was an ABC schedule in place to deal with this.

3. Or, it could have another crappy yr., thus devaluing everything even more.

4. TG's done rentals before, no? Probably thinking he'd need the assistance of the CC crew.

5. Well, sure it would have, and I would have preferred it. It goes back to leverage though.

6. One, a new IRL sled is in the works, supposedly for '09 or '10, so from his viewpoint, why bother? Two, while we all talk about it, equivalence formulas are a beeyotch.

Racing Truth

01-28-08, 05:04 PM

Compared to the IRL it is well managed. This will be painfully clear if the IRL absorbs Champcar. I know you've already got your travel agent on speed dial if it happens and I hope you enjoy 22 turds orbiting those little toilet bowls.

Really? Then how come TG's in the position to finally kill it?

High Sided

01-28-08, 05:14 PM

Really? Then how come TG's in the position to finally kill it?

because he won, his series will be around for decades thanks to indy.

Andrew Longman

01-28-08, 05:18 PM

1. Wanna bet? 'Cuz my bet is Haas and Walker (at least) are gone after this yr., thus killing the series.

2. RM says there was an ABC schedule in place to deal with this.

3. Or, it could have another crappy yr., thus devaluing everything even more.

4. TG's done rentals before, no? Probably thinking he'd need the assistance of the CC crew.

5. Well, sure it would have, and I would have preferred it. It goes back to leverage though.

6. One, a new IRL sled is in the works, supposedly for '09 or '10, so from his viewpoint, why bother? Two, while we all talk about it, equivalence formulas are a beeyotch.

1. I didn't mean to imply they should wait a year before negotiating again, only that there was little reason to take his first, one-sided offer.

2. Didn't know that. Who got the money for the extra races, ABC, IRL or CC? Perhaps CC wasn't happy with that answer. That would certainly be something they'd want to negotiate

3. Yup, which puts a little more pressure on TG. CC stock isn't sinking lower

4. Fine, just seem odd to call it a sanctioning fee

5. Leverage, yes. TG doesn't have to do it, but wouldn't it be in his self interest? Seems to show his pride is stronger than his smarts.

6. The new chassis is still in the dreaming stages with student at the Art Center School of Design and slated for 10-11. The DP01 could buy more time if they like or serve well for 2-3 more years. The most important thing is allowning it would likely remove most obstacles to moving over. Equivilancy only sucks if they are far apart. Hopefully they are close enough to allow teams to close the gaps by opening up parts of the car for development.

Methanolandbrats

01-28-08, 05:43 PM

Really? Then how come TG's in the position to finally kill it?
He has a bottomless pile of money.

Gnam

01-28-08, 05:51 PM

A DP-01/Cosworth vs. Dallara/Honda battle would renew my interest. If they won't/can't merge, at least they could race each other.

How much red tape would have to be cut through to allow the two to run against each other?

Methanolandbrats

01-28-08, 05:52 PM

Dr. Corkski

01-28-08, 05:55 PM

Just to clarify, who gets to be FRM? Robin Miller or Raphael Matos? :ccf:

kthxbye

nissan gtp

01-28-08, 06:13 PM

A DP-01/Cosworth vs. Dallara/Honda battle would renew my interest. If they won't/can't merge, at least they could race each other.

Honda would kick Cossy's ass (like in the past)

Hard Driver

01-28-08, 06:18 PM

Look, I think the final conclusion to be drawn from the last decade is that, it is all about Indy. And as long as TG has Indy, he has TV and maybe Honda. And now that TG has the Brickyard 400, he has an alternative and has a cash flow to allow him to keep hemoraging cash.

In the whole scheme of things, everyone has suffered in a war of attrition, but it looks like TG might have the most resources to allow him to outlast his opponants.

Gnam

01-28-08, 06:23 PM

Honda would kick Cossy's ass (like in the past)
Even bolted to a crapwagon?

mueber

01-28-08, 06:25 PM

I could quibble with a few things in Miller's column, and one has to always remember that Miller is as Indycentric as anyone at Trackforum, but until the introduction of the Panoz, things seemed to be moving forward. Afterward, they went into cost control mode and totally lost touch with reality. How that happened I don't know. How the infighting came about, I don't know; but I do know you can't run a business that way.

I really don't think Boy George is the obstacle Miller and folks here make him out to be. The fact that four Gomerville 500 winners are competing in Sprint Cup this year instead of visiting them sacred bricks has done nothing to make Boy George humble, several auto racing series do fine without an annual pilgrimage to Gomerville, and Gomerville needs NASCAR more than NASCAR needs Gomerville.

The fact is that the sport is now buried in apathy. Even if they get their acts together, it's going to take a lot of work to put open wheel onto good financial shape. It's not going to happen anytime soon because you and I are nobodies it this massive battle of egos, and I am one of many who are tired of it.

Racing Truth

01-28-08, 06:31 PM

Just to clarify, who gets to be FRM? Robin Miller or Raphael Matos? :ccf:

kthxbye

:D

IWARM? :tfmode:

jonovision_man

01-28-08, 06:32 PM

Compared to the IRL it is well managed. This will be painfully clear if the IRL absorbs Champcar.

Really? When is the last season the IRL planned a race, included it on a schedule, then canceled it? When is the last season ChampCar didn't scrap a race it had scheduled? Most of the IRL grid was solid months ago, ChampCar is up to what, 4 confirmed drivers? And the first race is when??

Tony has some big advantages - the 500, the BY400, Honda, sponsors, TV deal... it's an easier job than the ChampCar guys have for sure.

But on the flip side, KK/GF/PG have failed to land any manufacturers, sponsors, or a TV deal that they don't have to pay out for. They haven't forged relationships with anyone important in racing, in fact with Cosworth they managed to exit F1 entirely. And we're all quite familiar with the sponsorship situation.

The IRL is better managed than ChampCar. The hotdog cart outside my office is better managed than ChampCar.

jono

dando

01-28-08, 06:53 PM

The hotdog cart outside my office is better managed than ChampCar.

jono

Wow. Then with that endorsement, by all means they should be hired by CCWS to run race control in Cotman's absence. :shakehead :saywhat:

-Kevin

Methanolandbrats

01-28-08, 06:58 PM

Really? When is the last season the IRL planned a race, included it on a schedule, then canceled it? When is the last season ChampCar didn't scrap a race it had scheduled? Most of the IRL grid was solid months ago, ChampCar is up to what, 4 confirmed drivers? And the first race is when??

Tony has some big advantages - the 500, the BY400, Honda, sponsors, TV deal... it's an easier job than the ChampCar guys have for sure.

But on the flip side, KK/GF/PG have failed to land any manufacturers, sponsors, or a TV deal that they don't have to pay out for. They haven't forged relationships with anyone important in racing, in fact with Cosworth they managed to exit F1 entirely. And we're all quite familiar with the sponsorship situation.

The IRL is better managed than ChampCar. The hotdog cart outside my office is better managed than ChampCar.

jono Go to Indianapolis and ask ANYONE how much money they make off Indy now compared to 1995. FTG has the crown jewel and a bottomless checkbook and he still managed to run Indy into the f'n ground. Champcar started with nothing and is trying to build something. FTG started with everything and destroyed it. There's your contrast in management styles. Jeebus, I'm done with this stupid f'n debate, if Unification comes about, you merger types have a real nice time watching that crap and wondering for another 20 years why it still sucks.

RichK

01-28-08, 07:08 PM

Champcar started with nothing and is trying to build something.

Not really. Champcar started with the good name of CART, which they've managed to fly into the ground at top speed. Champcar is not even a hollow shell of what made CART so great. The sooner it goes away, the better IMO.

Doesn't mean I'll be an IRL fan anytime soon.

jonovision_man

01-28-08, 07:51 PM

Go to Indianapolis and ask ANYONE how much money they make off Indy now compared to 1995. FTG has the crown jewel and a bottomless checkbook and he still managed to run Indy into the f'n ground. Champcar started with nothing and is trying to build something. FTG started with everything and destroyed it. There's your contrast in management styles.

Spliting US OW was idiotic, no question. I would never argue the opposite. In fact I would never argue that TG has done a particularly good job since. I'm only saying that he's done better than ChampCar.

And ChampCar did not start with nothing... at the time of the split they started with the manufacturers, the sponsors, the teams, the drivers, they had everything except the Indy 500. If you mean KK/GF/PG, they started with a 5-year plan and a lot of promises... I doubt many here really expected it to end up where it is.

jono

Andrew Longman

01-28-08, 08:33 PM

Double post. Having a bad night

Andrew Longman

01-28-08, 08:34 PM

I doubt many here really expected it to end up where it is.

jono

I did. Once it was clear no one was going to blink it was pretty clear it would end badly. Seeing who TG presented to the fans for the 1996 500 it was clear he really didn't much care what the fans thought. And looking at how many people actually showed up to see that crap it was clear he wasn't entirely wrong.

jonovision_man

01-28-08, 08:51 PM

I did. Once it was clear no one was going to blink it was pretty clear it would end badly. Seeing who TG presented to the fans for the 1996 500 it was clear he really didn't much care what the fans thought. And looking at how many people actually showed up to see that crap it was clear he wasn't entirely wrong.

I was refering to KK/GF/PG... when they took over CART's assets, I think most here were pretty happy, but didn't expect it to end up where we find CCWS today.

jono

Andrew Longman

01-28-08, 09:02 PM

...I think most here were pretty happy, but didn't expect it to end up where we find CCWS today.

jono

I didn't expect them to schedule and announce races that weren't rock solid

I didn't expect them to hire incompetent people or hamstring those that weren't

I expected they would be much more aligned as a management team

I didn't expect them to do things on the cheap

But I didn't give them much of a chance either. I sat in empty stands at MIS, RA, Nazarth and Cleveland during the last years of CART and early CC years. The facts at the time were and still are that the sport has contracted to the point where even one series isn't really viable without Tony/Honda bucks.

jonovision_man

01-28-08, 09:14 PM

I didn't expect them to schedule and announce races that weren't rock solid

I didn't expect them to hire incompetent people or hamstring those that weren't

I expected they would be much more aligned as a management team

I didn't expect them to do things on the cheap

But I didn't give them much of a chance either. I sat in empty stands at MIS, RA, Nazarth and Cleveland during the last years of CART and early CC years. The facts at the time were and still are that the sport has contracted to the point where even one series isn't really viable without Tony/Honda bucks.

I agree with all you said... I was a bit optimistic maybe, I thought they had a chance to turn it around at least. Not to its former greatness, but at least to profitability and respectability.

But now they've had their chance, it's clear a turn-around isn't coming, and IMO need to step aside. It's over.

jono

01-28-08, 09:23 PM

I Can't read anymore.......vision is blurrrrrrr'd
SOS

I know I should stay off trying to participate...my bad.....been programming all day...

Sorry..my bad..cept saw the subject and still blurr'd out

nrc

01-28-08, 09:28 PM

Tony has some big advantages - the 500, the BY400, Honda, sponsors, TV deal... it's an easier job than the ChampCar guys have for sure.

But on the flip side, KK/GF/PG have failed to land any manufacturers, sponsors, or a TV deal that they don't have to pay out for.

What are you talking about? Tony George didn't "land" any of that stuff. It all existed because of Champ car or the Indy 500 and it all fell into his lap. Period. He hasn't done one single solitary thing to build anything other than buildings. He's simply taken what has fallen his way. Everything that he's lucked into has rotted away under his brilliant management. The former Indy 500 is the only reason that he still has any of that.

Do you really think that Honda is still around propping up teams and events because Tony George has some kind of clue? Do you imagine that his gift is just a little too subtle for the manufacturers who dumped him?

RTKar

01-28-08, 09:41 PM

Not really. Champcar started with the good name of CART, which they've managed to fly into the ground at top speed. Champcar is not even a hollow shell of what made CART so great. The sooner it goes away, the better IMO.

Doesn't mean I'll be an IRL fan anytime soon.

They have certainly fumbled some opportunities. Considering who the opponent is...:shakehead

Sean Malone

01-28-08, 10:44 PM

Ok, so we all agree Tony George is a moron, but what about Champ Car? Do we even have owners anymore? It seems like they've just given up.
Uh, Kevin, Gerry, care to comment on your series that is getting slammed like a buoy in a hurricane?

If they really want to piss George off...sell the series to NASCAR.

I just don't understand what KK and GF are thinking? If the teams all bail...there's no series.

I doubt they make it through this year. I predict an unprecedented collapse and that will be the end of it.

Andrew Longman

01-28-08, 10:58 PM

Do we even have owners anymore? It seems like they've just given up.

Oh I don't know. Gerry recently agreed to honor PTs contract. And he's hired talent to make them competitive.

Maybe the concerns of a few hundred internet cowboys aren't high on his list.

Boatdesigner

01-28-08, 11:03 PM

extramundane

01-28-08, 11:08 PM

Oh I don't know. Gerry recently agreed to honor PTs contract. And he's hired talent to make them competitive.

Maybe the concerns of a few hundred internet cowboys aren't high on his list.

That only accounts for Forsythe the Team Owner, though. Forsythe the Series Owner doesn't seem to have done much other than cut the budget. :\

Sean Malone

01-28-08, 11:12 PM

Oh I don't know. Gerry recently agreed to honor PTs contract. And he's hired talent to make them competitive.

Maybe the concerns of a few hundred internet cowboys aren't high on his list.

So not renigging on Tracy's contract and hiring a crew after he s-canned the entire lot is a statement on his involvement with the sport. Ok. :rolleyes:

Who's talking about 100 internet cowboys? Come on Andrew, we all love Champ Car (or it's memory at least) you don't have to convince me how loyal you are to the end. As you well know, I was referring to at least some sort of press release in rebuttal to recent NATIONAL press. Maybe it's coming...I'm waiting.

If this joke of a series crowns a champ this year...I'll be very surprised.

Sean Malone

01-28-08, 11:16 PM

How hard could it be to reduce the rpm's of the Cossy to equal the HP of the Honda if the DP01 is faster? It would also increase longevity. If that didn't work, redesign the wings a little on one or the other cars. On road courses it would be pretty easy, the ovals may be a little trickier aerodynamically as I would bet the DP01 is faster there as well.

Not necessarily so. The IndyCars have so much more down force (upwards of 1 billion pounds) that they carry much higher corner speeds than the DP01. (actual specifics may vary due to atmospheric variances and whether Danika is driving).

Boatdesigner

01-29-08, 12:11 AM

How do we know they have more downforce? I have never seen the numbers published and the DP01 has never been run on an oval as far as I know. They have run both on a road course and the DP01 was slightly faster (1-2 sec. lap if I remember correctly). Also, if the DP01 has less downforce, it also has less drag. Maybe the IRL sleds pass in the corners only to get passed again on the straights, sounds like a good race to me. Then again, it'll never happen!:shakehead

Fio1

01-29-08, 12:54 AM

By reading that piece you'd think that IRL was great and the Indy 500 was THE race. But, then as a fan of the sport you realise that this isn't so. Does RM think we are all retarded?

Who is RM kidding with this B.S?

Why wouldn't they want to be part of the Indianapolis 500, where maybe they could get enough exposure to score a sponsor?

Ya, that worked great for Hemelgarn, Lyendyck, Cheever, Buddy Rice, Brack, & Buddy Lazier. People who WON Indy the last 10 years, who now can't land a sponsor to field a car/ buy a ride. What can Walker, Minardi, Coyne get by going to Indy 500?

If you read the following quotes, won't you think he was talking about IRL, instead of CCWS?

Why wouldn't they want to stop spending millions of dollars to be a stepchild on ESPN and ABC?

Why wouldn't they want to stop throwing away millions to promote races that lose millions?

Why wouldn't they want to stop the bleeding of a sport that's been all but left for dead?

This says it all!

George has been beaten up constantly in this space (and rightly so) since 1996 but he's no longer the bad guy.

Now, he's talking like an IRL employee. This is propoganda at it's finest! I've haven't heard B.S like that since walking into a Scientology book store on Sunset to use the bathroom in 1999. Get the flip out of here with your B.S. Robin! :rolleyes: :thumdown: :yuck:

Gnam

01-29-08, 02:13 AM

I was referring to at least some sort of press release in rebuttal to recent NATIONAL press. Maybe it's coming...I'm waiting.

If this joke of a series crowns a champ this year...I'll be very surprised.
Relax ese. Speed is national like CSPAN2. ;)

Besides, even if KK & the Gang issued a press release saying all was well, would anyone believe it? All we can do is wait and watch just like Miller and FTG. :(

Another thought on running DP-01s with Dallaras: would the combination on track require the Dallaras to run with less downforce? If the EARL sled is faster around an oval (?), they would have to slow it down. They could turn the Honda horsepower down, but they could also trim those HUGE wings to reduce cornering speeds. If they went far enough, the EARL drivers might have to start lifting (or braking!) for turns. Definately an improvement.

Sean Malone

01-29-08, 10:33 AM

Relax ese. Speed is national like CSPAN2. ;)

Besides, even if KK & the Gang issued a press release saying all was well, would anyone believe it? All we can do is wait and watch just like Miller and FTG. :(

Another thought on running DP-01s with Dallaras: would the combination on track require the Dallaras to run with less downforce? If the EARL sled is faster around an oval (?), they would have to slow it down. They could turn the Honda horsepower down, but they could also trim those HUGE wings to reduce cornering speeds. If they went far enough, the EARL drivers might have to start lifting (or braking!) for turns. Definately an improvement.

Miller is painting the picture that there is trouble behind the scenes between KK and GF. If those two can't get on the same page, then how can they ever hope to right the ship? Gentilozi can't manage his own team, let alone a race series. I think KK cuts bait and leaves the whole thing to GF and he's a stubborn and impulsive dude. Hard to say what he would do with it.
What about the rumor that Cotman was offered a job by the IRL recently and has told CC that he would stay on board until the end of Feb but only to hammer out a merger deal with the IRL? the next two months are going to be fun!!

'They' could adjust the two cars to work together if they wanted, but it will never happen. It's a shame because the DP01 is 100x better looking and performing car.

JT265

01-29-08, 01:28 PM

I can't even remember what we are fighting for. I'm just hoping someone will color in my name for me. :saywhat:

:D

extramundane

01-29-08, 02:57 PM

I can't even remember what we are fighting for. I'm just hoping someone will color in my name for me. :saywhat:

Would you like your green flashing or non-flashing?

oddlycalm

01-29-08, 06:15 PM

It pays at times like this remember Railbird's advise about working yourself into a lather over the whims of rich guys. Robin Miller could benefit from it now.

Miller is delusional. Not a thing in his hand wringing diatribe qualifies as actual news. TG didn't offer anything to anyone outside of assuring some CCWS team owners that he'd make sure they were able to buy cars and engines. That's an offer that's been on the table since 1996. TG has admitted publicly that he never spoke with JF or KK.

The reason Miller is so lathered is more about what he doesn't say I suspect. In the absence of any changes (one series, engine competition) it's likely Honda will pull out of the IRL leaving TG and his league effectively nowhere. TG has money and he has access to engines through Penske (bend way over please), but without Honda's money TG would have to dig very deep indeed. It's Miller's future that has Miller most worried.

Whether or not JF and KK run their series into a brick wall is a separate issue and until it happens remains anyone's guess. If it happens, it happens, and there's not a damn thing we can do about it. Sad, but life goes on.

oc

Andrew Longman

01-29-08, 06:34 PM

Channelling Railbird... good idea

Indeed it was a vague non-offer of unspecified help inexchange for a specific commitment of budget and participation that teams couldn't provide if they wanted to.

And he never actually made it the offer by writting it down

Haas and other didn't say he wanted to go to the IRL, just that the series needed to do something to get together this year or at least next year. Nothing new. Who's going to disagree? Been said every year for the past several.

RM is just stirring the pot to try to keep his place in the world relevant. And I'm sure he loves the reaction he gets on the boards and elsewhere. He has a Howard Stern like approach to self promotion.

JT265

01-29-08, 06:37 PM

Would you like your green flashing or non-flashing?

Non-flashing would be fine. Don't wanna be a Spicoli wannabe. :laugh:

dando

01-29-08, 06:50 PM

Miller is delusional. Not a thing in his hand wringing diatribe qualifies as actual news.

That's why it's filed under commentary. Commentary is not about delivering new, but more like connecting the dots. If there's any truth to Newman agreeing that it's time to make peace, that is a very telling sign about the current state of affairs. Unfortunately the recently announced TV schedule, Cotman leaving, the dearth of announced drivers, Matos jumping to IPS, etc. are also not good signs. From the outside looking in, CCWS is a freaking circus.

Miller was certainly over the top stating that FTG is no longer the bad guy, but that's about the only piece I can fault him on.

YMMV.

-Kevin

dando

01-29-08, 06:57 PM

Haas and other didn't say he wanted to go to the IRL, just that the series needed to do something to get together this year or at least next year. Nothing new. Who's going to disagree? Been said every year for the past several.

Seems pretty clear that NHL plans on moving over, as Haas was quoted in multiple articles. Whether they want to or not is a game of symantecs.

Champ Car team co-owner Carl Haas plans to take his multiple title-winning team to the rival IndyCar Series in 2009 if a merger between the two championships cannot be agreed before then.

Haas, who owns Champ Car's most successful team Newman/Haas/Lanigan Racing with Paul Newman an Mike Lanigan, told SpeedTV: "It hasn't happened yet but we've certainly considered going.

"It may not happen this year, but it's highly probably that we'll go for 2009 because there needs to be one series."

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/64852

That's just one of many sources for that quote I've seen. *shrug* Seems pretty clear that the momentum is towards one series one way or another. We'll see.

-Kevin

nrc

01-29-08, 08:06 PM

That's why it's filed under commentary. Commentary is not about delivering new, but more like connecting the dots. If there's any truth to Newman agreeing that it's time to make peace, that is a very telling sign about the current state of affairs.

The trouble is that some are quoting the "commentary" as fact.

jonovision_man

01-29-08, 09:02 PM

Haas and other didn't say he wanted to go to the IRL, just that the series needed to do something to get together this year or at least next year. Nothing new. Who's going to disagree? Been said every year for the past several.

Dude, read this quote and tell me this is nothing new.

"It may not happen this year, but it's highly probable that we'll go for 2009 because there needs to be one series."

Possibly, maybe, we're thinking about it, that would all be old, but "highly probable" is new.

jono

dando

01-30-08, 11:54 AM

The trouble is that some are quoting the "commentary" as fact.

Guilty. IMHO that's due to the thirst for any news about the sport we all love to hate. :)

-Kevin

extramundane

01-30-08, 12:50 PM

Guilty. IMHO that's due to the thirst for any news about the sport we all love to hate. :)

-Kevin

It's our job; it's what we do.

jonovision_man

01-30-08, 01:33 PM

The trouble is that some are quoting the "commentary" as fact.

There were new quotes in the "commentary", it's not just RM's musings and theorizing.

jono

Spicoli

01-30-08, 03:15 PM

Non-flashing would be fine. Don't wanna be a Spicoli wannabe. :laugh:

http://i31.tinypic.com/119xu1k.jpg

nrc

01-30-08, 08:48 PM

There were new quotes in the "commentary", it's not just RM's musings and theorizing.

jono

What are you talking about? Here are the all the direct quotes from that piece:

"anything"
"no-brainer."
"got to find a way"

The rest is Robin Miller.

01-30-08, 09:11 PM

because he won, his series will be around for decades thanks to indy.

Well....Duh....THAT"S IT....
(and the Duh....is NOT to "High Sided")

He's actually the Correct Observer....commentator

jonovision_man

01-30-08, 09:37 PM

What are you talking about? Here are the all the direct quotes from that piece:

"anything"
"no-brainer."
"got to find a way"

The rest is Robin Miller.

Sorry, I got mixed up with this article:
http://www.speedtv.com/articles/auto/champcar/42686/

That's where the original quotes were...

“It may not happen this year, but it’s highly probable we’ll do it in 2009 because there needs to be one series.”

“We’ve got to find a way to make a deal with Tony George,”

anything we can do to get this thing together is a no-brainer,

“I know Paul (Stoddart) feels like the two should unite and he’s concerned about the whole thing.”

“It’s too late to do anything for 2008 but Tony’s plan is a good idea for 2009.”

jono

nrc

01-30-08, 11:51 PM

Most of those are just team owners responding to Miller. They don't support his speculation or prove anything other than that Haas got an offer.

The whole "Tony George made Champ car an offer but Forsythe is on crack" story line is unsubstantiated. There's no evidence to support that but Miller calls up the team owners looking for a reaction and he gets one.

"I never, ever saw an offer," Kalkhoven said, "and he didn't make it to Jerry."
http://www.autoweek.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080128/FREE/992520922/1024

jonovision_man

01-31-08, 08:38 AM

The whole "Tony George made Champ car an offer but Forsythe is on crack" story line is unsubstantiated. There's no evidence to support that but Miller calls up the team owners looking for a reaction and he gets one.

There were obviously meetings. There were obviously offers discussed.

There are obviously team owners who want to merge, give them a sniff of an offer and they want to take it.

Tony says he offered to help teams pay for cars, not give them free ones:

http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080128/SPORTS0107/801280351/1052/SPORTS01

George, the IRL's chief executive officer, said that in meetings last fall with Champ Car's leadership, he offered to help its teams pay for IRL cars on the condition they participated in his series for at least two seasons. When none came forward in a timely manner, George chose to scrap his plan.

So Robin's close. His source may not have gotten every detail right, but he got enough right that I don't think he's entirely out to lunch.

jono

Chief

01-31-08, 09:15 AM

jonovision_man

01-31-08, 09:24 AM

So they didn't meet?

Haas is now saying it's "highly probable" they'll go to the IRL in 2009. That's new.

jono

Andrew Longman

01-31-08, 09:40 AM

So they didn't meet?

Haas is now saying it's "highly probable" they'll go to the IRL in 2009. That's new.

jono

Meet with who?

Did TG or his reps meet/talk with GF or his reps? That's been claimed, but even TG didn't claim a firm and real offer was made (though he may think that what it was). And the offer didn't begin to meet the needs of the CC owners, mainly sponsorship or in its place much lower costs. They don't need cars. They have them. They are not going to buy more just so they can ride sponsorless in the 500.

Did anyone other that RM talk to the other owners? Apparently not because they didn't know anything about the offer. But when asked if they'd like to get the series together they said it is a no brainer. Not because they want to join the IRL, but because the sport is so messed up.

And Haas saying they have one more year is little different than when Newman said it two years ago. Their point is this is not sustainable.

Sean Malone

01-31-08, 09:45 AM

Dude....that is the same stuff EVERYONE has been saying for the past 12 years. It's just a different time and slightly different spin. Tony George is guilty for manipulating the media again.

Unless that gutless inheritor appears in public and on TV expressing his desire to use HIS power to solve this mess (that he created), he and Robin and all the others just pound one more nail into the open wheel coffin. Each time one of these stunts occurs it drive fans away from the sport due to the shear idiocyof it being associated with Tony George. Him and Indy are now a stage 4 cancer on the sport, and that's terminal.

So when is Miller going to do the right thing and lay this mess back on Georges' lap?

I see where oddlycalm is going with Miller looking at job security. If you are a journalist covering open wheel sports, a sport that every sports editor in the country knows is almost dead, you are going to try to angle your pieces toward the aspect that will possibly keep the paychecks coming. Miller probably looks at the Indy 500 as something that will continue through the bad times and of course George owns Indy. Angle your pieces so that George looks like a white knight and that produces all that much more negativity that Champ Car has to deal with. This is quite a game these guys are playing.

Andrew Longman

01-31-08, 10:15 AM

This is quite a game these guys are playing.

Miller is certainly looking for job security and I can hardly blame him.

The thing is these guys are good enough and rich enough business men to think strategically and think long term.

They are racing because they like to. They don't have to. And they could race in ALMS or elsewhere. But this is what they happen to like and also what they think eventually they could make a lot of money at.

It's that last part that is key. If it was just about going racing there hasn't been much stopping them since 1996. But if the sport is controlled and run by a person whose greatest asset is IMS then IMS will always take first priority in any decision, strategic or otherwise, in running the sport. And THAT is a proven failure exercise for all involved except IMS.

The single biggest difference between TG and the Frances is the Frances made Daytona and the 500 the mecca of NASCAR, but the bought and built other tracks and promoted races there which gave them the motivation to build up the sport as much as possible.

In TGs case he has almost zero motivation to help other tracks, promoters and team grow beyond the bare minimum needed to keep IMS rolling. If one person is to be the czar of the sport they have to have the motivation to help every stakeholder succeed.

Sean Malone

01-31-08, 10:40 AM

Miller is certainly looking for job security and I can hardly blame him.

The thing is these guys are good enough and rich enough business men to think strategically and think long term.

They are racing because they like to. They don't have to. And they could race in ALMS or elsewhere.But this is what they happen to like and also what they think eventually they could make a lot of money at.

Which team owner or owners is delusional enough to think that? Who actually made money in open wheel racing prior to the split? Penske? Who else?

Insomniac

01-31-08, 10:46 AM

Which team owner or owners is delusional enough to think that? Who actually made money in open wheel racing prior to the split? Penske? Who else?

I assumed everyone who ran full time. All the sanction fees, television right fees, sponsorship, etc. All the team owners were partners in CART and I assumed they split all that up. Add the IPO on top of that. Wasn't everyone making money? (owners, drivers, mechanics, CART employees, promoters, etc.)

extramundane

01-31-08, 10:57 AM

Which team owner or owners is delusional enough to think that? Who actually made money in open wheel racing prior to the split? Penske? Who else?

Well, there's Carl Haas, who always seems to end up with his hand in chassis/parts distribution. But a sweet deal from Tony offering up a piece of the Dallara (or insert future chassis here) concessions changes everything. And honestly, that was my first thought when I read Haas' quote in Robin's article.

01-31-08, 11:20 AM

Who actually made money in open wheel racing prior to the split? Penske? Who else?EVERYBODY.

The race by the owners for a bigger slice is a major part of the donwfall of CART.

eiregosod

01-31-08, 11:57 AM

all the CART team owners made a mint on the sale of their CART stock while still maintaining control over the on track product. Penske was the guy who used this to his advantage. The biggest whinger in all this was Michael Andretti who had no problem going where his bankrollers told him.

The US 500 was a sign of CARt unity, soon afterwards they all just wondered "what's in it for me?"

Sean Malone

01-31-08, 11:57 AM

EVERYBODY.

The race by the owners for a bigger slice is a major part of the donwfall of CART.

Prior to the split? It was the yen and IPO of the late '90's that got the greedy owners all clusterf'd and spelled the end of CART.

dando

01-31-08, 12:04 PM

I assumed everyone who ran full time. All the sanction fees, television right fees, sponsorship, etc. All the team owners were partners in CART and I assumed they split all that up. Add the IPO on top of that. Wasn't everyone making money? (owners, drivers, mechanics, CART employees, promoters, etc.)

The IPO happened post-split ~97, IIRC. There were prolly a few teams earning decent $$$...NH, Rahole, Patrick, Walker, Tasman, Foyt, Forsythe, Hogan, and Ganasty made enough with Patrick to form a team. There were also a bunch of one-off teams for Indy only and maybe a few races during the season.

-Kevin

Andrew Longman

01-31-08, 04:53 PM

Which team owner or owners is delusional enough to think that? Who actually made money in open wheel racing prior to the split? Penske? Who else?

They were pulling $2million sanction fees. They were getting paid millions to be on TV. Texaco, Kmart, Target, Players, Marlboro, Miller, Tecate, Quaker State, Kool, Bud, Motorola, Visa, and many others were paying big bucks for sponsorship. Manufactuers were paying the bills for winning teams. Budgets were well north of $10 million. Look at Mikey's mansion he build with his pre 1987 earnings. They were doing just fine presplit and the threat of losing that was certainly a lot of the motivation for not letting TG take it over. Ironic how it worked out

Sean Malone

01-31-08, 05:09 PM

They were pulling $2million sanction fees. They were getting paid millions to be on TV. Texaco, Kmart, Target, Players, Marlboro, Miller, Tecate, Quaker State, Kool, Bud, Motorola, Visa, and many others were paying big bucks for sponsorship. Manufactuers were paying the bills for winning teams. Budgets were well north of $10 million. Look at Mikey's mansion he build with his pre 1987 earnings. They were doing just fine presplit and the threat of losing that was certainly a lot of the motivation for not letting TG take it over. Ironic how it worked out

Exactly. So who today is starting a Champ Car team in hopes of quadrupling their investments on a yearly basis?

Insomniac

01-31-08, 05:23 PM

Exactly. So who today is starting a Champ Car team in hopes of quadrupling their investments on a yearly basis?

Exactly? You didn't say that. :p

I don't know who would "invest" in a team or CC personally.

Sean Malone

01-31-08, 05:49 PM

Exactly? You didn't say that. :p

I don't know who would "invest" in a team or CC personally.

Didn't say what? I asked a question.

oddlycalm

01-31-08, 05:51 PM

The single biggest difference between TG and the Frances is the Frances made Daytona and the 500 the mecca of NASCAR, but the bought and built other tracks and promoted races there which gave them the motivation to build up the sport as much as possible.

In TGs case he has almost zero motivation to help other tracks, promoters and team grow beyond the bare minimum needed to keep IMS rolling. If one person is to be the czar of the sport they have to have the motivation to help every stakeholder succeed. Right, back to the basic issue with the Hulman's. Whether it was the old USAC Trail or the current day they want the racing to stay Indycentric. That my have made sense in 1952 but by the late 70's the world had changed and USAC and the Hulman's were holding the teams hostage which led to the formation of CART.

When you look at the financial success of NASCAR and F1 and you look at the trajectory of formula car racing in the US you realize the magnitude of what this idiot has done. Even if CART had somewhat lagged the growth of NASCAR and F1 it would be huge today.

I'm sympathetic to Robin Miller's situation but he's seeing the situation through his own self-interest. I'm been waiting for one of these guys to stand up and tell the whole truth in a few short sentences since 1996 and I'm still waiting.

Indy racing is nowhere. The best drivers have moved on, Honda is on the cusp of leaving and sponsorships are few and far between. TG admitted he didn't meet with or make any offer to CCWS management and all we have is more noise while what is left of both series crumbles away. We've heard a different version of this every year since 1996 and here it comes again. By May it will be at full volume and by the end of June it'll be as forgotten as both of these series are.

oc

Andrew Longman

01-31-08, 05:53 PM

Exactly. So who today is starting a Champ Car team in hopes of quadrupling their investments on a yearly basis?

No one.

But running in a series where all decisions are made based more than anything else on how it will benefit one race and one racetrack owner is not a series a strategic thinking owner will invest in either.

No one chooses to enter into a business they can't make decision on. Not unless they define their business as pure short-term work-for-hire with no long-term strategic vision - e.g., you contract me to build you a house, or Honda contracts a team to run a driver for a season, etc.

But in that sort of business there is no long term growth and the business could stop at the end of any contract. That not the sort of sustainable business most smart business choose to do accept very opportunitically.