The 'M' Word again...

[doppelganger]

Tony George has tainted everything in American open wheel.....seriously, it's going to take DOZENS of years to rebuild what one man destroyed.

Screw him, the 500, and everything else. If I never see another open wheel race again it will be fine. :thumdown:

Spot on Chief. You have summed up my thoughts exactly. Sad, but true.

[Indy]

A dumbed down car for a dumbed down series. :shakehead

Can I agree with that without being counted down? :laugh:

[stroker]

When they merged I was pissed because I was firmly an old school NFL guy (kid actually).

And I was pissed that old line Cleveland, Baltimore and Pittsburgh teams had to move to the AFL(C) and those upstart teams.

For years I rooted for the NFC team in the Super Bowl.



The jerseys with the player names on them STILL don't look right to me...

[nrc]

There ya go, Dago. I was thinking today that it's like watching a train wreck. I can't seem to keep myself from checking in a coupla times a day to see what's fallen off the rails next.

And I completely agree about the DP01. It's not popular to say but I think the thing sounds like S...T. A dumbed down car for a dumbed down series. :shakehead

It's so dumb it's faster at a lot of tracks. :gomer:

Honestly I don't know why you would think that about the sound. The sound at full song isn't that much changed and if anything is smoother and more powerful sounding. Maybe you're thinking of the horrible noise they make on the rev limiter at that starts.

[miatanut]

Maybe you're thinking of the horrible noise they make on the rev limiter at that starts.

For me, that sound kicks ass! The sound of one car doing victory donuts multiplied X17.

[Indy]

nrc, when you go to the beach at RA and hear one of those things loafing through the kink, it is quite obvious how much slower it is on the straights compared to the pre-spec engine days. I noticed that immediately during the 2003 season, however, so this is nothing new. If anything, the DP01 improved the sound a little bit (but not much). There was nothing like the scream of the manufacturer engines, and I have not experienced such a sensation of speed since.

[nrc]

nrc, when you go to the beach at RA and hear one of those things loafing through the kink, it is quite obvious how much slower it is on the straights compared to the pre-spec engine days. I noticed that immediately during the 2003 season, however, so this is nothing new. If anything, the DP01 improved the sound a little bit (but not much). There was nothing like the scream of the manufacturer engines, and I have not experienced such a sensation of speed since.

Ah, I see. I thought she was talking about the latest iteration (in the DP01) vs recent years. I still don't agree that the detuned version sounds like **** but I agree that the scream has been muted.

[Racing Truth]

Because of the huge liabilities involved in cancelling all the races FTG doesn't want run. If FTG wants to "buy" Champ Car with dodgy old chassis and funky Honda rebuilds he needs to make good on the rest. Another case of trying to buy with the wrong currency.

You seem to think we have leverage here. I'm not sure why you think this. In the end, CC will just disappear into nothing, if nothing great changes.

[DagoFast]

You seem to think we have leverage here. I'm not sure why you think this. In the end, CC will just disappear into nothing, if nothing great changes.

Good. One crappy series down, one to go!

Besides, death is a better fate for CCWS than what FTG is likely to do with it.

[Spicoli]

Besides, death is a better fate for CCWS than what FTG is likely to do with it.

Well, that is the crux of the arguement really.:(

[oddlycalm]

Both series now have their backs against the wall, so they may actually try to merge. My question is always the same in any business situations; who's the buyer? Assuming they somehow managed to nail these two brokedick series together who's going to watch and why? Don't look now but a whole generation has grown up without any credible US professional formula car racing. The two existing fan bases define the term culture clash and I don't see many being happy for long.

Also, who's going to control TG's reverse Midas touch where he manages to turn money into compost? Where every business decision is the wrong one and every opportunity is missed?

On paper it looks like each side has valuable assets, but I'm skeptical if the sum of those assets is worth much in 2008, particularly with TG's involvement.

oc

[Racing Truth]

Good. One crappy series down, one to go!

Besides, death is a better fate for CCWS than what FTG is likely to do with it.

That's an argument I can live with and accept. Might be best.

[Andrew Longman]

On paper it looks like each side has valuable assets, but I'm skeptical if the sum of those assets is worth much in 2008, particularly with TG's involvement.

Even the gomers at TF can't seem to get their head around exactly how much more a single series would be worth. About they best they can say is it will show that the CART guys were wrong and TG was right.

[FTG]

That's an argument I can live with and accept. Might be best.

If a stupid person runs it, it'll turn into a stupid series. Death would be better.

[pchall]

You seem to think we have leverage here. I'm not sure why you think this. In the end, CC will just disappear into nothing, if nothing great changes.

I don't presume that CC has any leverage. All I'm saying is that at this late date less than 90 days before Long Beach it makes more sense to run the 2008 season and let FTG try again late next summer. A handful of used Dallaras and Honda leases to the team owners can't make up for the liabilities the owners face if they cancel all those races.

[rabbit]

Good. One crappy series down, one to go!

Yep, a unified series run by FTG would be crappy. But at least there would only be ONE crappy series instead of the two we are saddled with now. It's time to pull the plug.

[Sean Malone]

Yep, a unified series run by FTG would be crappy. But at least there would only be ONE crappy series instead of the two we are saddled with now. It's time to pull the plug.

It would also help centralize the hate. Now instead of the old CART fans hating the new Champ Car fansand the old IRL fans hating both CART and Champ Car fans let alone the hate towards the series of topic...

we could all just hate Tony George (and the crapwagons, and Honda and Michael Andretti and AJ Foyt and the gomers and...)

Centralized hate...it's a wonderful thing.

[extramundane]

Centralized hate...it's a wonderful thing.

Communist.

[Sean Malone]

Communist.

:D

Have they merged yet? I don't want to miss the announcement.

Which reminds me, what's the best news outlet that will text my cell when the news breaks. google? I don't care where I am, when it happens...I'm heading to a computer.

LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[TravelGal]

Ah, I see. I thought she was talking about the latest iteration (in the DP01) vs recent years. I still don't agree that the detuned version sounds like **** but I agree that the scream has been muted.

Actually, boss, she was. When I first watched Moreno doing the tests, I kept asking "but doesn't it sound so different?" Everyone told me it was my computer audio and/or speakers. So I held my peace until Long Beach last year. I'll grant that it is not all THAT different but to me, it lost something. Just personal taste but it when the series you love loses just a little here and just a little there and on and on, pretty soon it gets hard to hold onto anything.

Which is why I can almost get to agreeing again with DagoFast. :(



Besides, death is a better fate for CCWS than what FTG is likely to do with it.

[Cam]

:D

Have they merged yet? I don't want to miss the announcement.

Which reminds me, what's the best news outlet that will text my cell when the news breaks. google? I don't care where I am, when it happens...I'm heading to a computer.

LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Intardweb wont be available. All alloted bandwidth will be immediately assigned to Bradenton and Anchorage. :saywhat:

[jonovision_man]

Even the gomers at TF can't seem to get their head around exactly how much more a single series would be worth. About they best they can say is it will show that the CART guys were wrong and TG was right.

C'mon Andrew, some of the benefits are clear.

Races

Today you have two series that cobble together 14 and 15 race schedules - almost 30 races a year combined - and many are clearly money losers.

Merge, dump the losers keep the winners. There are enough winners on each schedule to make a great combined schedule that's conceivably profitable.

Grid

Today you have two series that cobble together 17-19 car grids, 35 or more entries total combined. You have Tony pouring money in to get 33 for Indy. Many teams are clearly leaches, dependent on team assistance. Both series have them.

Merge, dump the loser teams, keep the ones that can pay their own way. 20+ cars on the grid with considerably reduced (or even eliminated?) team assistance.

TV

ChampCar takes a bath on TV, it's pissed away money while the IRL has a contract in place that pays them. Merge, dump ChampCar's massive TV costs (production + broadcast) and have a solid TV package. Side bonus: races shown in their entirety! What a concept!

I think the financial benefits of a mergers/surrender are painfully clear. You get events, grids, and TV that are no longer costing you money and you have something on solid ground. Neither series is there right now, but together they could be.

Now your mileage may vary on whether you like the racing or not... that's personal preference... but from a business perspective it makes a huge amount of sense.

jono

[eiregosod]

It would also help centralize the hate. Now instead of the old CART fans hating the new Champ Car fansand the old IRL fans hating both CART and Champ Car fans let alone the hate towards the series of topic...

we could all just hate Tony George (and the crapwagons, and Honda and Michael Andretti and AJ Foyt and the gomers and...)

Centralized hate...it's a wonderful thing.


I think the 'M' stands for "Malone" ;)

[Sean Malone]

I think the 'M' stands for "Malone" ;)

:(

At least Spicoli likes me. :p

[Andrew Longman]

C'mon Andrew, some of the benefits are clear.

Races

Grid

TV



It would be better for the reasons you state, but how much better from a commercial standpoint?

Races: Depending on who you believe it is hard to find a race on the CC schedule that makes money. If LB, Cleveland, Edmonton, TO are losing millions what sort of profit can you predict for them just because the IRL teams are there (and it has to show a profit because in one series there is less incentives to hang on to loser races)? Ask the same question for many IRL races.

Grid: The current grids can't deliver sufficient sponsor value to cover their costs. Not even close. They need help from KK, Honda or TG. How many more eyeballs will see races and will it be enough to justify sponsor spending sufficient to field more cars? I think not and whoever winds up owning this thing will still pay what it takes to field 18-19 cars.

TV: Well CC teams won't have pay to be on TV but Disney is not going to pay any more for the IRL just because some teams were added. I doubt they'll even pay more for more races because outside of Indy the races don't draw enough ratings to justify paying for it. They could get the same ratings on a much lower cost "celebrity poker" show.

There would be better prize money and it would likely get paid and there is a somewhat better chance a driver could get paid though

[Racing Truth]

Yep, a unified series run by FTG would be crappy. But at least there would only be ONE crappy series instead of the two we are saddled with now. It's time to pull the plug.

In the end, that's where I'm at. I know, having TG in charge sucks royally. I don't relish that one bit. But the question I keep coming back to is this: If you blow everything up (inc. the I500?), will you be able to bring any of it back? 5-7 yrs. ago I might have thought so. Now, I doubt it.

And while the current condition sucks, I want to be able to watch more American-based racing than just NASCAR (which I do watch as well).


It would also help centralize the hate. Now instead of the old CART fans hating the new Champ Car fansand the old IRL fans hating both CART and Champ Car fans let alone the hate towards the series of topic...

we could all just hate Tony George (and the crapwagons, and Honda and Michael Andretti and AJ Foyt and the gomers and...)

Centralized hate...it's a wonderful thing.

:laugh: :rofl: :rofl: The hate really has become confused, hasn't it?

[Racing Truth]

Yep, a unified series run by FTG would be crappy. But at least there would only be ONE crappy series instead of the two we are saddled with now. It's time to pull the plug.


It would be better for the reasons you state, but how much better from a commercial standpoint?

Races: Depending on who you believe it is hard to find a race on the CC schedule that makes money. If LB, Cleveland, Edmonton, TO are losing millions what sort of profit can you predict for them just because the IRL teams are there (and it has to show a profit because in one series there is less incentives to hang on to loser races)? Ask the same question for many IRL races.

Grid: The current grids can't deliver sufficient sponsor value to cover their costs. Not even close. They need help from KK, Honda or TG. How many more eyeballs will see races and will it be enough to justify sponsor spending sufficient to field more cars. I think not and whoever winds up owning this thing will still pay what it takes to field 18-19 cars.

TV: Well CC teams won't have pay to be on TV but Disney is not going to pay any more for the IRL just because some teams were added. I doubt they'll even pay more for more races because outside of Indy the races don't draw enough ratings to justify paying for it. They could get the same ratings on a much lower cost "celebrity poker" show.

Their would be better prize money and it would likely get paid and there is a somewhat better chance a driver could get paid though

Races: OK, one, your argument is a good one for pulling the plug now. Two, add some CC races that ARE profitable, and you offset the unprofitables. Three, we don't fully know (one way or the other) if the dynamic changes w/ one series. Maybe some events recover, maybe not.

Grid: One word Andrew: STABILITY. Beyond every other problem that exists in the current state of OW, sponsors want no part of a dynamic lacking clarity and stability. One series answers at least a few of these questions. Beyond that, cars from NHL, Walker, and a couple more boost the car count.

TV: To be sure, a tougher call. I'd like to think a series w/ 25 or so cars wouldn't hurt, and again, the stability thing.

[Andrew Longman]

Truth, your points are fair. One series, for the reasons you give, is very likely a necessary condition for recovery, but that was true in 1997. Today, so much damage has been done that one series is a very, very long way from being sufficient to creating a successful series.

Your points, and Jono's are not untrue, but you can only offer optimistic guesses that commercial factors will make business sense. Keep in mind that the two series spent and spent because they were spending to earn the throne of the only (relevant) open wheel series. Once one side wins the incentives are no longer there to keep spending (especially when the throne sits on a now largely irrelevant series).

I expect one series will fairly soon begin to look like USAC circa 1975 with one important difference. No one will know or care who won the 500 and the few who happen to notice a non-500 race won't see the equivilant of AJ Foyt, Mario Andretti, Johnny Rutheford, Bobby Unser, Tom Snever, Peter Revson, etc in the race.

[jonovision_man]

It would be better for the reasons you state, but how much better from a commercial standpoint?

Races: Depending on who you believe it is hard to find a race on the CC schedule that makes money. If LB, Cleveland, Edmonton, TO are losing millions what sort of profit can you predict for them just because the IRL teams are there (and it has to show a profit because in one series there is less incentives to hang on to loser races)? Ask the same question for many IRL races.

Well first we need to differentiate between the race making or losing money and the series making or losing money. Edmonton pays a sanctioning fee, and from what we know, a pretty hefty one. Maybe they're losing money, maybe not, but as long as they pay the sanctioning fee it's a race the series can run without losing money.

Ditto Oz.

Cleveland - I'm not sure

LB and TO are owned by KK/GF. They've got to be close to breaking even or profitable - at the very least they're losing less than other races (ie. Tremblant, Laguna). I think with Steelback Toronto had to be making a profit, without them it might be dodgy if they don't get a big sponsor.


Grid: The current grids can't deliver sufficient sponsor value to cover their costs. Not even close. They need help from KK, Honda or TG. How many more eyeballs will see races and will it be enough to justify sponsor spending sufficient to field more cars? I think not and whoever winds up owning this thing will still pay what it takes to field 18-19 cars.

The best 18-19 cars from ChampCar and IRL are a lot closer to self-sufficiency than the worst 18-19 cars. You're basically dumping the worst of the lot, the guys who need the most subsidies.


TV: Well CC teams won't have pay to be on TV but Disney is not going to pay any more for the IRL just because some teams were added. I doubt they'll even pay more for more races because outside of Indy the races don't draw enough ratings to justify paying for it. They could get the same ratings on a much lower cost "celebrity poker" show.

Agreed, but at least ChampCar wouldn't be pissing away millions and millions here.


There would be better prize money and it would likely get paid and there is a somewhat better chance a driver could get paid though

Agreed, and I think we all recognize that drivers who get paid tend to be of a higher quality than those who bring a cheque with them.

jono

[EDwardo]

Tony George has tainted everything in American open wheel.....seriously, it's going to take DOZENS of years to rebuild what one man destroyed.

Screw him, the 500, and everything else...

I completely agree. George, with an ego combined with stunning ineptness as a series owner, has singlehandedly caused the likely demise of American open wheel racing. Anyone who thinks that a merger will transform the IRL into a successful racing series isn't being realistic.
A few things to consider. IRL attendance and tv ratings have for the most part been declining for years. Only a few IRL teams have plentiful financial sponsorship. So how would a merger change these things?
Will the addition of a few former CC teams increasing fields from 18 or 19 to 27 or 28 suddenly attract big sponsorship money? Will race fans, relieved that the open wheel split is finally over, flock to the races and fill all the seats? Will tv viewer ship ratings soar because there is finally one series again?

And how will the suggested 5 CC events added to the IRL schedule have a positive impact? Of the 5 only Long Beach is in the US. And LB has remained successful for years despite the ups and downs of CC. Most estimates indicate that attendance at the Mexico City race has dropped dramatically the past 2 years. Toronto, Edmonton, and Surfers are well attended. But will a merged series restore a huge crowd for Mexico City? And will Canadian and Australian fans embrace the new IRL?

Inescapably, the IRL product sucks. More tracks, a bigger field, one series instead of 2, and a pinhead continuing in control won't change this.

If it is now inevitable, I prefer to have Champcar end on its own and have no part in the extinction of the IRL.

[pchall]

I
If it is now inevitable, I prefer to have Champcar end on its own and have no part in the extinction of the IRL.

I share this sentiment.

[Cam]

If it's the crapwagons on on track at surfers, I will certainly not contemplate getting on the big bird. Even if the V8's are there.

[Duroc]

Anyone who thinks that a merger will transform the IRL into a successful racing series isn't being realistic.

It's all over but the shouting.


Will the addition of a few former CC teams increasing fields from 18 or 19 to 27 or 28

They'll just cut the subsidies and have a 18-20 car field with a third of those still on series life support.


attendance at Mexico City

Bungling away Mexico and the US Spanish language market guaranteed minor league\niche market status.