View Full Version : Kirby rips one out
http://www.gordonkirby.com/categories/columns/theway/2007/the_way_it_is_no73.html
Not kind. Not wrong, either.
Horne part interesting.
Former CART & Indy Lights team owner Steve Horne has been talked about as a potential candidate to try to get Champ Car and IRL to work together to steer a new course for American open-wheel racing.
"I'd love to get involved if they were really serious about rebuilding American open-wheel racing," Horne commented. "If they asked Mario (Andretti) to be involved and recruited two or three other really experienced people from the sport to make a serious commitment to it, I'd love to be involved. But I'm afraid I can't see that happening."
Horne and his wife Christine live in his native New Zealand during the northern winters and spend their summers at their American home in suburban Columbus, Ohio. Horne was at Indianapolis on race weekend this year and also took in this year's Cleveland Champ Car race.
"It was the first time in four years I'd been to a Champ Car race and I was shocked," he remarked. "It felt like I hadn't seen my mother in ten years and she'd changed so much I hardly recognized her. There are some nicely-presented teams but the whole scene is so reduced from what it was."
Horne's racing roots go back to the SCCA's Formula 5000 and 'new era' CanAm series in the late seventies and early eighties. He led VDS Racing and Geoff Brabham to the 1980 CanAm championship in the dying days of that series.
"I hate to say it, but it reminded me of the SCCA all over again," Horne observed about his trip to Cleveland. "It reminded me of GP2, or something like that. It's moved on to become something else we don't recognize. Really, it's like death by a thousand cuts."
Horne met Kevin Kalkhoven in Cleveland and the pair enjoyed a convivial chat. "I sat down with Kevin for probably an hour and a half, and I found him to be an interesting guy. But I didn't get a clear vision of where it's all going.
"Again," Horne added, "if they got serious about bringing the two groups together and really trying to rebuild the sport, there are a lot of experienced, good people who would love to jump in and help. But unfortunately, I just don't see it happening."
It is what it is.....we fans told them the soul was gone but it fell on deaf ears. F'em.....they ain't getting my racin' dollars anymore till they get a clue.:thumdown:
oddlycalm
07-17-07, 01:30 PM
But the problems run even deeper. During this year's Indy 500 Chip Ganassi told me his team's great run to four consecutive CART titles from 1996-1999 with Jimmy Vasser, Alex Zanardi and Juan Montoya, mean nothing. "It's like everything from 1996 has been just erased," Chip said. "It's incredible. Nobody knows or cares about those days. I have tremendous affection for those days but as far as them having any sales power or commercial value, there isn't any!"
So says one the people most responsible for getting us to where we are today. Cashing out his CART stock and running to the IRL was designed to do exactly what for who? If he, Penske and Greene had stood firm and acted ethically TG would have likely hit the wall by now with a league of nobodies, has beens and fools. Now he's peeved nobody remembers....?
oc
Andrew Longman
07-17-07, 03:40 PM
Who's Chip Ganassi?
A second tier NASCAR team owner.
devilmaster
07-17-07, 03:46 PM
So says one the people most responsible for getting us to where we are today. Cashing out his CART stock and running to the IRL was designed to do exactly what for who? If he, Penske and Greene had stood firm and acted ethically TG would have likely hit the wall by now with a league of nobodies, has beens and fools. Now he's peeved nobody remembers....?
oc
Unfortunately, fatassi has never nor will ever own up to his own duplicity in the split.
jonovision_man
07-17-07, 03:59 PM
"I sat down with Kevin for probably an hour and a half, and I found him to be an interesting guy. But I didn't get a clear vision of where it's all going."
Vision... lol... :rofl:
There is no vision.
KK wants to focus on the Pacific Rim, ends up with two scrapped attempts at racing in Asia and a new European Vacation. For those keeping track, Europe is the opposite of Pacific Rim. :p
TG wants to preserve OW oval racing, then dumps MIS for Belle Island.
The new vision: race where you will lose the least money. Roger wants to pay for a street race? Good-bye MIS! Ansan and China blow up, start negotiating a second European swing.
If you were a sponsor who signed up to target the "Pacific Rim" I'm sure you'd be thrilled... or if you bought into the festival of speed in an urban setting only to see Montreal dropped for the poorly attended Mont Tremblant. And now some road races in Europe... it's easy to get confused where it's all going.
jono
You said "sponsor". That's funny.
Andrew Longman
07-17-07, 04:26 PM
Just read the entire article and I have to say I was surprised to not find much new there.
Open wheel racing business sucks. Duh.
Bashing CC by equating it to A1GP and GP2 or because it is not what CART was is hardly a shocker, or even particularly fair. Comparing anything about AOW to 1995 after 11 years of self inflicted damage is hardly a fair shot.
The current champ car is still a harder to drive with more power than A1GP or GP2. But CC is about as good as anyone can do given the climate. And races in NA a lot more than A1GP and GP2 do. CC is what we have.
And I'm confused how launching a new car screwed up the race schedule.
Other than that, not much to disagree with except that I think there are several marketable and talented drivers in both series, they just need motivated sponsors committed to leverage them. Nobody remembers who Vasser and Zanardi are because Target is no longer promoting them and don't promote their current crop either.
jonovision_man
07-17-07, 04:50 PM
You said "sponsor". That's funny.
There's a few left... :p
How about "team funding source"? Surely those who are spending money to be in the series want some idea of where it's going and where they'll be racing in the next few years.
jono
Do any of you really expect introspection from a hollow shell like Ganassi?
Critics are by definition cowards. It’s not that Kirby or Robin Miller or any other observer, including the many of us here, are wrong, it’s that none of us have come up with a workable solution to what ails racing in America today.
Until someone does, I’m riding Kalkhoven’s horse because, in my opinion, it’s the best choice out there. It’s his money, his reputation and his risk, and I appreciate him doing it. See you at Road America; I ordered the tickets yesterday.
shaggy_socal
07-17-07, 06:27 PM
Cashing out his CART stock and running to the IRL was designed to do exactly what for who?
It was designed to line Chip's pockets with Yen. Lots and lots of Yen.
And I'm confused how launching a new car screwed up the race schedule.
That one is a head scratcher for me, as well.
The other odd bit was the mention of the alleged new IRL chassis and engine spec for 2011, one created by IMS and Honda. It seemed to imply that CCWS should scrap the DPO1 and further development of chassis and engine specs for their series needs just to be able to run one particular superspeedway race in 2011. The CART/Champ Car went down that route before with the 3.5l NA and other nonsense...
jonovision_man
07-17-07, 07:07 PM
Do any of you really expect introspection from a hollow shell like Ganassi?
Critics are by definition cowards. It’s not that Kirby or Robin Miller or any other observer, including the many of us here, are wrong, it’s that none of us have come up with a workable solution to what ails racing in America today.
The problem isn't coming up with solutions, anyone can come up with a solution. Robin's talked about merging as a solution, one I agree with.
It's implementing them, and right now TG and KK are the only guys who could get it done. Instead they move further away from a solution and closer to obscurity every day.
Until someone does, I’m riding Kalkhoven’s horse because, in my opinion, it’s the best choice out there. It’s his money, his reputation and his risk, and I appreciate him doing it. See you at Road America; I ordered the tickets yesterday.
I'd appreciate it a lot more if I felt a good job was being done, but I really don't feel that it is.
jono
Who's Chip Ganassi?
A fat rich kid who brought Old Milwaukee to Patrick racing and had a massive shunt at the Michigan 500 in the mid 80's.
The problem isn't coming up with solutions, anyone can come up with a solution. Robin's talked about merging as a solution, one I agree with.
It's implementing them, and right now TG and KK are the only guys who could get it done. Instead they move further away from a solution and closer to obscurity every day.
I'd appreciate it a lot more if I felt a good job was being done, but I really don't feel that it is.
jono
No WORKABLE solution can include Tony George. By now I would hope everyone understands that there will be no merger as long as "the Boy" is breathing on a regular basis.
As for it being well done, KK doesn't have much to work with, and it is his money and his risk. All I can do is wish him well and go to the races. Being critical and negative isn't gonna help anything.
jonovision_man
07-18-07, 09:12 AM
No WORKABLE solution can include Tony George. By now I would hope everyone understands that there will be no merger as long as "the Boy" is breathing on a regular basis.
No workable solution can ignore Tony George.
As for it being well done, KK doesn't have much to work with, and it is his money and his risk. All I can do is wish him well and go to the races. Being critical and negative isn't gonna help anything.
Kirby (and Robin) are "critical and negative" when it's warranted and positive most of the rest of the time.
But nobody seems to start a thread for the bulk of their columns which are positive or about what's going on at the track, they only get started when they are controversial and talking about the miserable business that is US OW.
jono
No workable solution can ignore Tony George.
jono
Given his behavior over the last 15 years you can't possibly believe that Tony George wants to be part of any solution that involves his having less than complete control. Nor can you ignore the fact that the IRL is becoming the USAC of the present: One race a year that matters and a dozen that don't. Those of us who are older recognize that situation as the primary justification for the founding of CART some years ago.
More importantly, any of us can think of a few motor racing series that don't need to race at Gomerville to be successful. Those series prove every year that there is nothing about the place that makes it indispensible to the future success of open wheel racing.
Going back to what I said before, KK and GF are the only people who appear to be dealing with those realities, more power to them. See you at Road America.
JLMannin
07-18-07, 11:16 AM
No workable solution can ignore Tony George.
The only workable solutions I can think of do not involve race tracks or race track owners in Marion County Indiana.
Insomniac
07-18-07, 11:40 AM
Given his behavior over the last 15 years you can't possibly believe that Tony George wants to be part of any solution that involves his having less than complete control. Nor can you ignore the fact that the IRL is becoming the USAC of the present: One race a year that matters and a dozen that don't. Those of us who are older recognize that situation as the primary justification for the founding of CART some years ago.
More importantly, any of us can think of a few motor racing series that don't need to race at Gomerville to be successful. Those series prove every year that there is nothing about the place that makes it indispensible to the future success of open wheel racing.
Going back to what I said before, KK and GF are the only people who appear to be dealing with those realities, more power to them. See you at Road America.
Indy is such an important piece of OWR that TG could kick CART out and start his own series based around it. That CART had everything else was still not enough. Money slowly disappeared. Manufacturers and sponsors as well. And eventually, many teams just couldn't stay away. That should tell you how important Indy is.
I still think while TG is a complete idiot and his vision has obviously blow up in his face, there is more at play than simply "TG is the problem" to getting a merger done. The fact that neither side will say what the problem is interesting to me. It's a simple thing to do in theory, but there seems to be a lot of underlying factors that can easily derail this.
If KK and company really thought they were better off without a merger and building CC, they'd never discuss it. TG has also softened i his stance at times to the point where many actually thought it was possible a year ago.
Something keeps happening to derail these talks, and I doubt it's the same thing every time because there would be no point in talking if neither side was willing to concede on that point.
Someone in the know should call out the party that is the biggest impediment to a merger. I wish Mario would've done that instead of being vague.
No workable solution can ignore Tony George.
You're right. He shouldn't be ignored. He should be frozen in carbonite and hung on a wall at 16th and Georgetown as a warning of how much damage one moron can do.
Someone in the know should call out the party that is the biggest impediment to a merger.
Who is Tony 'F-----g' George? :tony:
When is that guideline, "A fool and his money are soon parted," going to kick in?
Something keeps happening to derail these talks, and I doubt it's the same thing every time because there would be no point in talking if neither side was willing to concede on that point.
Someone in the know should call out the party that is the biggest impediment to a merger. I wish Mario would've done that instead of being vague.
I can't imagine but one of three people can stop a merger from happening: TG, KK or GF. My money is on TG. A merger would save the parties the waste of energy that goes into fighting each other, but it would solve nothing of substance.
jonovision_man
07-18-07, 01:37 PM
Given his behavior over the last 15 years you can't possibly believe that Tony George wants to be part of any solution that involves his having less than complete control. Nor can you ignore the fact that the IRL is becoming the USAC of the present: One race a year that matters and a dozen that don't.
ChampCar doesn't even have one. :p
To be successful, US OW needs to come together, and that's going to involve TG, and it's going to involve the Indy 500. And it's not going to involve TG in "complete control", but he's going to be there.
More importantly, any of us can think of a few motor racing series that don't need to race at Gomerville to be successful. Those series prove every year that there is nothing about the place that makes it indispensible to the future success of open wheel racing.
Going back to what I said before, KK and GF are the only people who appear to be dealing with those realities, more power to them.
No workable solution exists while there are two series, only struggle and the spiral into obscurity.
jono
jonovision_man
07-18-07, 01:39 PM
Indy is such an important piece of OWR that TG could kick CART out and start his own series based around it. That CART had everything else was still not enough. Money slowly disappeared. Manufacturers and sponsors as well. And eventually, many teams just couldn't stay away. That should tell you how important Indy is.
I still think while TG is a complete idiot and his vision has obviously blow up in his face, there is more at play than simply "TG is the problem" to getting a merger done. The fact that neither side will say what the problem is interesting to me. It's a simple thing to do in theory, but there seems to be a lot of underlying factors that can easily derail this.
If KK and company really thought they were better off without a merger and building CC, they'd never discuss it. TG has also softened i his stance at times to the point where many actually thought it was possible a year ago.
Something keeps happening to derail these talks, and I doubt it's the same thing every time because there would be no point in talking if neither side was willing to concede on that point.
Someone in the know should call out the party that is the biggest impediment to a merger. I wish Mario would've done that instead of being vague.
It's been over a decade of struggle, it only makes sense that TG would start to open to the idea of ending this nonsense.
jono
Methanolandbrats
07-18-07, 01:45 PM
It's been over a decade of struggle, it only makes sense that TG would start to open to the idea of ending this nonsense.
jono TG has two choices. He either augers into the ground by sticking to his guns or caves in and looks like a total dumbass. My bet is on choice #1.
extramundane
07-18-07, 01:56 PM
It's been over a decade of struggle, it only makes sense that TG would start to open to the idea of ending this nonsense.
You're assuming that "sense" is in play in the first place, which is a bad assumption.
Insomniac
07-18-07, 04:11 PM
Who is Tony 'F-----g' George? :tony:
When is that guideline, "A fool and his money are soon parted," going to kick in?
I can't imagine but one of three people can stop a merger from happening: TG, KK or GF. My money is on TG. A merger would save the parties the waste of energy that goes into fighting each other, but it would solve nothing of substance.
I agree, ultimately it's one of them. But they keep starting the talks and stopping. People give TG entirely too much credit. Who is poisoning the talks. Who is whispering in TG's ear?
Who is whispering in TG's ear?
The ghost of Guy Trolinger. :tony:
jonovision_man
07-18-07, 04:30 PM
TG has two choices. He either augers into the ground by sticking to his guns or caves in and looks like a total dumbass. My bet is on choice #1.
He's already caving in... dropping MIS for Belle Island?? That doesn't sound like the original "vision". Neither does having a single engine manufacturer at the Indy 500, or having to run his own team to keep the grid full.
jono
He's already caving in... dropping MIS for Belle Island?? That doesn't sound like the original "vision". Neither does having a single engine manufacturer at the Indy 500, or having to run his own team to keep the grid full.
You're confusing the excuse with the true motivation. The only real "vision" he's ever had is himself with absolute control. Everything else is pretext.
jonovision_man
07-18-07, 06:19 PM
Certainly control was one of the motivating factors, but there was some vision to what he was trying to create.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=erHQmiqD8BI
... more of an American flavour ...
... oval racing is considered Americana and that's what we should - in my opinion - we should be trying to perfect and then export...
Does Motegi count as exporting? :D
In any case, I strongly believe that Honda, the Andrettis, Roger, and probably a bunch of others are pushing Tony around these days. It's all getting very reminiscent of CART actually, team owners and manufacturers with power and agendas forcing the hand of the series.
I truly believe that a single series would attract manufacturers and would create instant demand for the 24 or so spots on the grid that could be accomidated... some of the dead weight from each series would be gone, as would team assistance, it'd be great.
jono
As an old saying goes, "It's not whether you or I live or die, but whether the gene pool survives" . You or I being tg & KK and the gene pool being North American open wheel racing....it doesn't look good for open wheel racing however you slice it. Nascar has become too much of a juggernaut to battle with a house divided. Frankly I'd rather have seen it die a noble death than to see what it's become now, something run by incompetence.
devilmaster
07-18-07, 06:31 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=erHQmiqD8BI
What happened in that video? Tony paused for a thought and I fell asleep...
... more of an American flavour ...
... oval racing is considered Americana and that's what we should - in my opinion - we should be trying to perfect and then export...
Motegi, Rio, Rockingham, Germany all started by CART.
With the addition of Michigan, hasn't the IRL given up on more ovals than Cart/CC now? :)
jonovision_man
07-18-07, 06:53 PM
With the addition of Michigan, hasn't the IRL given up on more ovals than Cart/CC now? :)
For sure... look at the original IRL schedule:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1996-1997_in_IRL
- Walt Disney World Speedway - gone
- Phoenix International Raceway - gone (possibly re-animated)
- Pikes Peak International Raceway - gone
- Charlotte Motor Speedway - gone
- New Hampshire International Speedway - gone
- Las Vegas Motor Speedway - gone
jono
I think the idea that scares both sides, is that the offspring of :tony: and KK will be worse than what either has now. No one denies this baby would be UGLY, but the hope is it would grow larger and live longer than either one could alone.
anyone want to photoshop a TG/KK baby ala the Tonight Show? :eek:
hasn't the IRL given up on more ovals
or vice-versa
For sure... look at the original IRL schedule:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1996-1997_in_IRL
- Walt Disney World Speedway - gone
- Phoenix International Raceway - gone (possibly re-animated)
- Pikes Peak International Raceway - gone
- Charlotte Motor Speedway - gone
- New Hampshire International Speedway - gone
- Las Vegas Motor Speedway - gone
jono
The complete list of ovals the IRL abandoned or was kicked out of...
WDW -Orlando - 5 races
Michigan - 6 races
Atlanta - 4 races
Charlotte - 3 races
Dover - 2 races
Nazareth - 3 races
Loudon - 3 races
Gateway - 3 races
Pikes Peak - 10 races
Las Vegas - 5 years
Phoenix - 10 races
Fontana - 4 races
Insomniac
07-18-07, 10:11 PM
For sure... look at the original IRL schedule:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1996-1997_in_IRL
- Walt Disney World Speedway - gone
- Phoenix International Raceway - gone (possibly re-animated)
- Pikes Peak International Raceway - gone
- Charlotte Motor Speedway - gone
- New Hampshire International Speedway - gone
- Las Vegas Motor Speedway - gone
jono
They still have Indy. ;)
devilmaster
07-18-07, 10:18 PM
or vice-versa
Rob! we gonna meet up at MO and take a walk round the track? ;)
devilmaster
07-18-07, 10:19 PM
I think the idea that scares both sides, is that the offspring of :tony: and KK will be worse than what either has now. No one denies this baby would be UGLY, but the hope is it would grow larger and live longer than either one could alone.
anyone want to photoshop a TG/KK baby ala the Tonight Show? :eek:
*shudder* :yuck: ;)
JohnHKart
07-18-07, 10:21 PM
Oh god Dover....that was horrible!!! The cars were going too fast, the cameras couldn't keep up, it was a total joke. The crashes were horrendous. Trying to watch it on TV was a true exercise in Futility. It didn't work in what..68? It sure as heck didn't the second time.
John
Someone in the know should call out the party that is the biggest impediment to a merger. I wish Mario would've done that instead of being vague.
Mari and Bill.
Spicoli
07-19-07, 12:26 AM
Mari and Bill.
********. it's tony. you are smarter than that.
********. it's tony. you are smarter than that.
:gomer:
Racing Truth
07-19-07, 08:01 PM
Indy is such an important piece of OWR that TG could kick CART out and start his own series based around it. That CART had everything else was still not enough. Money slowly disappeared. Manufacturers and sponsors as well. And eventually, many teams just couldn't stay away. That should tell you how important Indy is.
I still think while TG is a complete idiot and his vision has obviously blow up in his face, there is more at play than simply "TG is the problem" to getting a merger done. The fact that neither side will say what the problem is interesting to me. It's a simple thing to do in theory, but there seems to be a lot of underlying factors that can easily derail this.
If KK and company really thought they were better off without a merger and building CC, they'd never discuss it. TG has also softened i his stance at times to the point where many actually thought it was possible a year ago.
Something keeps happening to derail these talks, and I doubt it's the same thing every time because there would be no point in talking if neither side was willing to concede on that point.
Someone in the know should call out the party that is the biggest impediment to a merger. I wish Mario would've done that instead of being vague.
Well, I think (honestly) THIS is related to your post. (http://www.racingpress.com/content/view/43/52) If not, consider it Shameless Self-Promotion on my part.:tony:
Past history would say its all TG's doing, but reading Oreo's article, I note that Mario went out of his way to knock CC. Unfairly, but still...
Rob! we gonna meet up at MO and take a walk round the track? ;)
Didn't you suffer enough that morning without the IRL there?? :laugh:
Well, I think (honestly) THIS is related to your post. (http://www.racingpress.com/content/view/43/52) If not, consider it Shameless Self-Promotion on my part.:tony:
Past history would say its all TG's doing, but reading Oreo's article, I note that Mario went out of his way to knock CC. Unfairly, but still...
That's a fine article, especially this part: "Open-wheel racing isn't important enough or coherent enough to be split up into an oval-dominated series and a road and street course-dominated series." It sounds, strangely again, like one of the primary reasons for the founding of CART.
The only remaining hope for open wheel is not a merger, it's the certainty that the IRL is nothing more than USAC II which, by definition, is doomed to failure.
jonovision_man
07-20-07, 09:34 AM
That's a fine article, especially this part: "Open-wheel racing isn't important enough or coherent enough to be split up into an oval-dominated series and a road and street course-dominated series." It sounds, strangely again, like one of the primary reasons for the founding of CART.
The only remaining hope for open wheel is not a merger, it's the certainty that the IRL is nothing more than USAC II which, by definition, is doomed to failure.
Except the guy who owns the series also owns IMS, which hosts the Indy 500, BY400, and now Moto GP... $$$.
The IRL isn't going anywhere for the foreseeable future. Can't say the same about ChampCar with any confidence, I don't think it's likely it'll be "doomed" but it's possible.
Merger = good. Not going to happen, but it'd be good. :)
jono
Andrew Longman
07-20-07, 09:52 AM
About the only way I see anything positive happening in the way of putting the series together is if Honda pulls out or threatens too. At least eight cars and several sponsors are only there because of their ties to Honda and would just as soon take Honda's money (or anyones') and race in ALMS or NASCAR or elsewhere.
Without those prestige teams, even TG might swallow enough pride to accept a deal.
Except too, guys like Penske, Andretti and Chip don't race on their dime for a second. That's why they aren't in CC and will not unless the money is coming from Honda or somewhere.
Insomniac
07-20-07, 11:53 AM
Whose best interest is it to not have a merger besides NASCAR? Who would keep derailing a merger and why would TG listen to them?
jonovision_man
07-20-07, 12:18 PM
Whose best interest is it to not have a merger besides NASCAR? Who would keep derailing a merger and why would TG listen to them?
Good question... a few spring to mind.
- Low-end teams would almost certainly be pushed out
- Fewer seats for the drivers
- Some events would be chopped, competition to be on the schedule would push sanctioning fees up, so possibly promoters?
- Panoz? Dallara? Someone will either be squeezed out or have to compete.
- Honda? Cosworth? Same deal, either one gets the shaft or they're both in a competitive situation again.
- TG would lose full control of "his" series, once again the series that runs the 500 wouldn't be in his full control.
- KK would lose full control of "his" series
jono
Insomniac
07-20-07, 07:28 PM
Good question... a few spring to mind.
- Low-end teams would almost certainly be pushed out
- Fewer seats for the drivers
- Some events would be chopped, competition to be on the schedule would push sanctioning fees up, so possibly promoters?
- Panoz? Dallara? Someone will either be squeezed out or have to compete.
- Honda? Cosworth? Same deal, either one gets the shaft or they're both in a competitive situation again.
- TG would lose full control of "his" series, once again the series that runs the 500 wouldn't be in his full control.
- KK would lose full control of "his" series
jono
Bottom tier teams, I guess they may get the squeeze out. But why would the owners care since those teams are being subsidized by them anyway. Heck, they're subsidizing their own teams.
I can see some drivers getting pushed out in favor of some ride buyers at first, but again, why would the owners care?
Why would the loss of some events worry the owners? They don't own all of them. They can cherry pick the best events instead of scrapping together races at any place that would have them.
The IRL are probably pretty close to a new chassis. If they want a spec chassis, it won't be that hard to do.
Honda is really the only true manufacturer. Cosworth is an engine company owned by KK and GF. They could work something out.
Both sides can't have control, but is that really the problem? If it is, why do they even bother to talk.
My real question was who. I doubt it's a low level team owner, a driver worried about their job, an employee of Cosworth, an employee at a chassis manufacturer, etc. They may lose something, but they don't have enough of a power position or stake to derail a merger (at least not by themselves).
jonovision_man
07-20-07, 08:34 PM
I agree with you. Just identifying some people who will lose in the merger.
And if you peel all of those back, you're left with KK and TG being the two guys who are holding this up... almost everyone else is better served by a merger.
jono
miatanut
07-20-07, 09:47 PM
Indy is such an important piece of OWR that TG could kick CART out and start his own series based around it. That CART had everything else was still not enough. Money slowly disappeared. Manufacturers and sponsors as well. And eventually, many teams just couldn't stay away. That should tell you how important Indy is.
Late to the party. Sorry.
This past May attendance for Indy qualifying was extremely underwhelming. They mostly filled the place up for the big race, but it is clear Indy ain't what it used to be. How many folks on the street can tell you who won the 500 this year? How about in 1996? How about TV ratings? From any angle, it has less than half the power and influence it had in 1996. It's still by far the biggest open wheel race in the US. Notice I even have to use the qualifier open wheel. Didn't have to do that in 1996!
The last time (Homestead) Cheep uttered one of his 'We've got to get back together' comments, I had an epiphany. They can't come back to Champ Car for a variety of reasons, but they can end the open wheel war. If the IRL teams decided they wanted open wheel to flourish again in the US, they could do a new, improved version of CART with the CCWS teams, and then the combined teams of this sport would have the power to dictate to Tony. What would be Tony's alternative? He's looking at half a field even if he funds all the teams he does now. If 33 is more than just a number to him, and there is plenty of evidence that is the case, then he would finally HAVE to negotiate. I think most of the Champ Car teams would be able to see that would be the way to drive a stake through the heart of this conflict, and if they were on board, the long, slow decline of open wheel in the US would be over.
The teams can fix this mess. If they choose.
Racing Truth
07-21-07, 01:20 PM
Late to the party. Sorry.
This past May attendance for Indy qualifying was extremely underwhelming. They mostly filled the place up for the big race, but it is clear Indy ain't what it used to be. How many folks on the street can tell you who won the 500 this year? How about in 1996? How about TV ratings? From any angle, it has less than half the power and influence it had in 1996. It's still by far the biggest open wheel race in the US. Notice I even have to use the qualifier open wheel. Didn't have to do that in 1996!
The last time (Homestead) Cheep uttered one of his 'We've got to get back together' comments, I had an epiphany. They can't come back to Champ Car for a variety of reasons, but they can end the open wheel war. If the IRL teams decided they wanted open wheel to flourish again in the US, they could do a new, improved version of CART with the CCWS teams, and then the combined teams of this sport would have the power to dictate to Tony. What would be Tony's alternative? He's looking at half a field even if he funds all the teams he does now. If 33 is more than just a number to him, and there is plenty of evidence that is the case, then he would finally HAVE to negotiate. I think most of the Champ Car teams would be able to see that would be the way to drive a stake through the heart of this conflict, and if they were on board, the long, slow decline of open wheel in the US would be over.
The teams can fix this mess. If they choose.
Oh goody, another OW series.:rolleyes: I've read this before, and its still a lousy idea. Great, recreate CART again. What makes you think those fools could actually make the tough decisions needed to build the sport? Past history says otherwise, in the sense that once things got tough (1996 and beyond), the incompetence, greed, and ego set in.
Not to mention, creating another near-worthless OW series strikes me as laughable.
Insomniac
07-21-07, 01:39 PM
Late to the party. Sorry.
This past May attendance for Indy qualifying was extremely underwhelming. They mostly filled the place up for the big race, but it is clear Indy ain't what it used to be. How many folks on the street can tell you who won the 500 this year? How about in 1996? How about TV ratings? From any angle, it has less than half the power and influence it had in 1996. It's still by far the biggest open wheel race in the US. Notice I even have to use the qualifier open wheel. Didn't have to do that in 1996!
The last time (Homestead) Cheep uttered one of his 'We've got to get back together' comments, I had an epiphany. They can't come back to Champ Car for a variety of reasons, but they can end the open wheel war. If the IRL teams decided they wanted open wheel to flourish again in the US, they could do a new, improved version of CART with the CCWS teams, and then the combined teams of this sport would have the power to dictate to Tony. What would be Tony's alternative? He's looking at half a field even if he funds all the teams he does now. If 33 is more than just a number to him, and there is plenty of evidence that is the case, then he would finally HAVE to negotiate. I think most of the Champ Car teams would be able to see that would be the way to drive a stake through the heart of this conflict, and if they were on board, the long, slow decline of open wheel in the US would be over.
The teams can fix this mess. If they choose.
There is no question Indy isn't as big as it was and is going downwards. But as you said, it's still by far the biggest open wheel race. It may have been passed by the Daytona 500 if you ask a random person to name one race, but it's hard to kill of the long tradition and name, even if no one knows who won this year. In a way, Indy was/is a lot like the Super Bowl in that many people who don't watch any other open wheel race still watch the Indy 500.
Another split is not going to be the answer. Trying to back TG into a corner won't work. He still controls Indy, and just as not everyone went with CART, everyone won't turn their back on Indy. He can keep this thing going. He has all the BY 400 money, and there isn't some rule that the equipment must cost so much.
I don't pretend to know what it is that TG wants, but he needs to recognize that a merger benefits him first, and then be willing to make compromises (just like the other side) to get it done. I think he does know a merger is beneficial, but for whatever reason, the compromises can't be made by both sides to get it done.
Insomniac
07-21-07, 01:40 PM
I agree with you. Just identifying some people who will lose in the merger.
And if you peel all of those back, you're left with KK and TG being the two guys who are holding this up... almost everyone else is better served by a merger.
jono
Interestingly, Roger Penske didn't make his annual declaration/request for a merger this year.
miatanut
07-21-07, 05:57 PM
Oh goody, another OW series.:rolleyes: I've read this before, and its still a lousy idea. Great, recreate CART again. What makes you think those fools could actually make the tough decisions needed to build the sport? Past history says otherwise, in the sense that once things got tough (1996 and beyond), the incompetence, greed, and ego set in.
Not to mention, creating another near-worthless OW series strikes me as laughable.
There were two primary tensions in CART. One was the original tension between the road racers and the oval racers. The other gradually developed between the franchise holders and the non-franchise teams. Tony successfully exploited these two tensions to blow the whole thing up. Now, we have CART Lite run by Tony, and CART Lite run by the Amigos. Tony has done a very effective job of poisoning the soil of all open wheel oval racing outside of Indy, so ovals are actually signficant in Tony's CART Lite than they were in CART, and non-existant in the Amigos CART Lite.
A new structure would have teams coming from substantially similar series. One still has a few ovals it hasn't jettisoned yet. The other has a bit more of an international orientation. These differences are nothing like the old CART/USAC differences. The road racers won.
The haves/have nots problem can be solved by designing the structure a little better in the first place.
Merger is not possible. That much is certain. It's is a waste of time to even persue it. Tony won't budge, and there is too much bad blood between the fans on both sides. The only way to fix open wheel at this point is to blow the whole thing up and start fresh.
What do I think will really happen?
I think professional open wheel in the US will continue its slow decline until it disappears completely.
Another possibility is that CCWS folds when the Amigos get propping it up, so some CCWS teams will become IRL teams, and others will go into ALMS or disband. For me, it would mean the end of an American open wheel series, because I will never watch something associated with Tony. Started my Tony boycott in '92 (Jovy) and it will continue to the end of my or his days.
It would be nice if there were a brighter future.
Merger is not possible...The only way to fix open wheel at this point is to blow the whole thing up and start fresh.
Why can't the big bang be the result of a merger?
You get a bigger bang from fusion than from fission.
The only question is will it be an Appomattox style merger carried out with professionalism and respect, or Hitler burning in a ditch while Berlin is destroyed type merger?
Although, even if the CCWS surrendered and agreed to all demands, I'm still 98% sure FTG would reject the idea as not in his best interests and scuttle the plan. He's that cracked.
miatanut
07-21-07, 11:44 PM
Why can't the big bang be the result of a merger?
You get a bigger bang from fusion than from fission.
The only question is will it be an Appomattox style merger carried out with professionalism and respect, or Hitler burning in a ditch while Berlin is destroyed type merger?
Although, even if the CCWS surrendered and agreed to all demands, I'm still 98% sure FTG would reject the idea as not in his best interests and scuttle the plan. He's that cracked.
That's why merger is not possible. FTG is too cracked.
Agreed, you get a bigger bang from fusion than fission. Only problem is the necessary components/containment to achieve fusion in this case are unavailable.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.5 Copyright © 2024 vBulletin Solutions Inc. All rights reserved.